Poll: KotoR vs KotoR 2 (Mods allowed!)

[Hargrimm]

-snip-

Don't worry about the length, it was interesting. I'm not going to respond because we basically just have different beliefs and it would be a tricky and heavily political discussion to make much progress. The number of stories I've heard of people who've changed a deep rooted political position over a discussion of KotoR 2 is pretty small.

So I think what I want to say on the much less serious point of videogames is, people like KotoR 2 for it's grey-grey morality and other people have said that to them, that sort of destroys the point of Star Wars. But I think KotoR 2 less has a grey-grey morality, but challenges your concept of morality. So you can conclude that Kreia was wrong, or you can listen to what she says, she's not presented as all knowing, or even honest and reliable and her existence doesn't necessarily mean KotoR 2 is grey-grey or destroying the idea of light-dark, but what it does do, is make you think really hard about it, pretty much just through the strength of her arguments and she gives you the possibility to see a more complicated morality if you're open to it

That I definitely agree with.
That's basicallly what I meant by "introduction to ethics and philosophy". It deconstructs religious dogma and absolutism through Kreia and by making her unreliable also makes you question her convictions, so that you might come to your own conclusions.

That was a fun little exchange I must say. I'd definitely enjoy discussing PS:T with you, should the topic come up.

 

[UnusualStranger]

Big old chop to save some space.

Spoiler: Because...well, whatever.

Well, my first "shot this in the head" thing is adding voice acting isn't going to add to the experience, or improve it. Its going to add a voice, which can be for better or for worse for some people. Ultimately, I feel it to be just cosmetic. If you can't read lines in a dramatic fashion in your head, you obviously need to work on your reading. But thats just me

However, I think the real trick is we are both willing to cut our separations of game and story at different points. You look at Mission in the game and go "Why is she willing to kill all these people for Revan", and I look at that statement and go "What, would you rather have her just go in a corner and hide every time combat shows up?" For me a lot of the fighting and stuff that game-wise happens in a slightly different realm, because I would like to think that everyday life in Star Wars tends to be filled with little girls using military grade laser rifles against Sith Soldiers.

And with Atton, yes I understand he was a soldier and has done this fighting thing before, and this killing thing...But then you actually ask him about...well, what he has done or is, and it just doesn't seem to be "Atton" at all. As in, he suddenly shifts to a horribly different character that just doesn't seem quite right. He's angry at you for being a jedi, and is kinda forced (via Kreia) to do work with you. And then....it just kind of is solved. Becoming a Jedi/Sith, and then calling it done. I don't recall much of a character journey with Atton, more of just a start and a finish, with few details.

But, I do see your points, and where you are coming from. I personally can enjoy both games, and do enjoy the style of armor and fighting in 2 more (as well as the now advanced dialogue options), but it ultimately does not appeal to me like the first one did, and the story at times seems to play against itself, the characters have certain "walls" that they just hit at certain points, and yes actual fighting overall was broken.

Though, to be honest, I think the reason I dislike the game in comparison to the first is twofold. First is Kreia, which has so many problems I would rather not post. Second, is the major players in the story in general all seem to fall down relatively easily. All the jedi masters, the sith lords, everyone seems to screw up or challenge the wrong person and just...lose, very quickly. In Kotor, you fought Malik and it was a hell of a fight. You fought that general fellow on the bridge, and lasers and it was kinda intense. I can't really seem to recall moments like that in Kotor 2.

 

[BrotherRool]

Though, to be honest, I think the reason I dislike the game in comparison to the first is twofold. First is Kreia, which has so many problems I would rather not post. Second, is the major players in the story in general all seem to fall down relatively easily. All the jedi masters, the sith lords, everyone seems to screw up or challenge the wrong person and just...lose, very quickly. In Kotor, you fought Malik and it was a hell of a fight. You fought that general fellow on the bridge, and lasers and it was kinda intense. I can't really seem to recall moments like that in Kotor 2.

Thats actually probably fair enough, I like the dialogue fight with the scarred guy and I prefer the villains in general in 2 to 1 (but in many ways that wasn't 1's fault, the point of the story was that Malik was pretty bad and blandly motivated, at least with Bastila they almost do something with a character whose purpose is to be nothing (even if the way Bastila gets captured is the most ridiculous BS I've ever seen in a game until Kai Leng. In fact it happens pretty much the same way KL gets what he wants in Thessia) but all the boss fights (apart from the dialogue one, and even then the actual fight wasn#t interesting enough) in KotoR 2 were boring compared and didn't convey character well.

 

[Tragedy's Rebellion]

Though, to be honest, I think the reason I dislike the game in comparison to the first is twofold. First is Kreia, which has so many problems I would rather not post. Second, is the major players in the story in general all seem to fall down relatively easily. All the jedi masters, the sith lords, everyone seems to screw up or challenge the wrong person and just...lose, very quickly. In Kotor, you fought Malik and it was a hell of a fight. You fought that general fellow on the bridge, and lasers and it was kinda intense. I can't really seem to recall moments like that in Kotor 2.

Thats actually probably fair enough, I like the dialogue fight with the scarred guy and I prefer the villains in general in 2 to 1 (but in many ways that wasn't 1's fault, the point of the story was that Malik was pretty bad and blandly motivated, at least with Bastila they almost do something with a character whose purpose is to be nothing (even if the way Bastila gets captured is the most ridiculous BS I've ever seen in a game until Kai Leng. In fact it happens pretty much the same way KL gets what he wants in Thessia) but all the boss fights (apart from the dialogue one, and even then the actual fight wasn#t interesting enough) in KotoR 2 were boring compared and didn't convey character well.

I felt that Nihlus and Sion were *dislodged* from the whole narrative, like they were operating on a different plane of existence and had no impact whatsoever on the story. The sith assassins could easily have made their move without them and the reason for Nihlus and Sion to be there is to unseat Kreia. After that they felt like a chain on the story.

 

[RJ 17]

I'm not playing it with mods and it runs perfectly fine for me now. I understand that it's missing content since the publisher rushed it, but even from the handful of hours I've played, what's there has been far and away better than KOTOR. I'm not sure it could possibly get bad enough in the last few hours to make it worse than KOTOR as far as I'm concerned. And I am being serious as I really don't like Biowares writing. The original KOTOR spent any time that HK-47 wasn't saying something boring the crap out of me.

I have to admit, I still way preferred KotoR 2 even comparing the shipped editions, it wasn't so broken or unfinished that the story didn't make sense or it was unplayable.

But I would argue that 1) Since the restored content was content that Obsidian made, designed and wrote it was just not complete enough to add into the game, we're still measuring developer skill. Whereas the best mod for KotoR was based entirely off original content and blew the game out of the water in terms of writing

And 2) If we're choosing which game we want to play right at this very moment, or which game someone should buy etc, or which one I would most enjoy if I were to load it up and play it now, mods become entirely relevant. Okay maybe release KotoR 2 didn't have the HK factory, but thats not how I'm going to play it now. Because it doesn't change the storyline from what Obsidian intended, and doesn't add content that wasn't meant to be there in the first place, there is exactly zero reason why someone would choose to play it unmodded.

Yeah, Vivi, Rool was catching onto what I meant when I said the game is "broken". That is to say that it's not unplayable, but rather unfinished. Say what you want about Bioware's writing vs Obsidian's, but at least the first game actually had an ending. Beyond the fact that large chunks of the KotOR2 were missing, if you ask me the ending to it was more a slap in the face than the ending to Mass Effect 3. What happens? You kick Kreia's ass and then...kinda...just fly off. It's been years since I played the game, but I do remember there being a lot of stuff that required closure that simply wasn't given.

And Rool, that answer ties in a bit with the response to your comment as well. The story made sense right up to the last mission when everything started to clearly get rushed. That last level was just as rushed as the ending was. Weren't you supposed to be trying to set off a Mass Shadow Bomb or something while you're walking around on that asteroid? What ever happened to that? Absolutely nothing. While the content MAY have been there, just incomplete and not added, that's still content that wasn't in the game as-shipped. I still say the only fair way to judge two games is by how they were shipped, not what the games have been made into after they were shipped. Because that's what the developers put out and declared "This is our final product, hope you like it!" Seems to me the credit for the success doesn't go to the game, but rather what the fans did for the game.

That said, I do agree that there isn't any reason to NOT get the mods, I'm not trying to poo-poo them. I'm just saying that when someone approaches you and asks "Which game is better?" that mods shouldn't be considered because they're still things that were implemented by the fans, not the developers. Otherwise your answer could end up something like "Well this game really isn't that great until you download all the mods for it, then it becomes awesome!" Well what's that say about the base game itself? Quite literally "It isn't that great". Like I said, even if that mod is just pulling stuff out that SHOULD have been in the game and filling in all the holes with the incomplete content, it's still work done by the fans.

In short, Obsidian didn't finish KotOR2, the fans did.

And that's why I still say that while I did like many aspects of KotOR2 more than the first game, by virtue of being a complete game with an actual ending, I still go with KotOR 1.

 

[Imre Csete]

KotOR 2.

If you can make a min-max build solely for the purpose to get most of the extra dialogue options restricted to Stats/Skills, then you know you are dealing with a quality RPG.

 

[Geo88]

The equipment-modding. To this day I hold my claim that Kotor 2 had the single best upgrade system in a single player game ever. You can upgrade literally everything (save for a very limited number of low-tech or special gear), the upgrades are significant and useful, and it actually also makes having a skill-focused character useful (or you can keep Bao-Dur around as a tech instead of turning him into a jedi, as he has the best skill-growth and bonuses in the entire game).

This. This really speaks to me. Every time I want to play KotOR I again, I say to myself, "Well, KotOR was great, but the level cap is stuck at 20, so I'll have to get off Taris as soon as possible to maximize my Force powers. And KotOR II has all those upgradable weapons and armor options. And it has Atton... And that awesome militia fight on Dantooine."

Then I catch myself saying, "Son of a *****, I've got to play through Peragus again... Well, screw it, the Restored Content Mod makes it worth it."

Obsidian took a pretty solid template and managed to churn out a passable game in less than one year. Sure, it took years of fan work to make the game really shine, but I can only imagine what would've happened if Obsidian had gotten that second year to work on it. The Genoharadan, the droid planet, I think it would've been a really phenomenal game.

But back OT, if we're including mods, then I think KotOR II wins. The tweaked gameplay is a vast improvement, and the Restored Content Mod moves the game from "playable" to really "enjoyable." And I think if Obsidian had gotten some more time, it would have been more or less a perfect sequel -- utilizing the prequel's good elements, improving the prequel's poorer elements and turning out a very good game.

 

[Tragedy's Rebellion]

The equipment-modding. To this day I hold my claim that Kotor 2 had the single best upgrade system in a single player game ever. You can upgrade literally everything (save for a very limited number of low-tech or special gear), the upgrades are significant and useful, and it actually also makes having a skill-focused character useful (or you can keep Bao-Dur around as a tech instead of turning him into a jedi, as he has the best skill-growth and bonuses in the entire game).

This. This really speaks to me. Every time I want to play KotOR I again, I say to myself, "Well, KotOR was great, but the level cap is stuck at 20, so I'll have to get off Taris as soon as possible to maximize my Force powers. And KotOR II has all those upgradable weapons and armor options. And it has Atton... And that awesome militia fight on Dantooine."

Then I catch myself saying, "Son of a *****, I've got to play through Peragus again... Well, screw it, the Restored Content Mod makes it worth it."

Obsidian took a pretty solid template and managed to churn out a passable game in less than one year. Sure, it took years of fan work to make the game really shine, but I can only imagine what would've happened if Obsidian had gotten that second year to work on it. The Genoharadan, the droid planet, I think it would've been a really phenomenal game.

But back OT, if we're including mods, then I think KotOR II wins. The tweaked gameplay is a vast improvement, and the Restored Content Mod moves the game from "playable" to really "enjoyable." And I think if Obsidian had gotten some more time, it would have been more or less a perfect sequel -- utilizing the prequel's good elements, improving the prequel's poorer elements and turning out a very good game.

You could just not level in Taris at all (as in not clicking level up when you do level) and you can get all your levels as a Jedi when you go to Dantooine. Also there's a mod to skip Peragus which is really tedious.

 

[Phuctifyno]

I went with the orginal KOTOR, though I have only played KOTOR2 once, years ago, whereas I've played the first many times and as recently as last year.

I do think the first one had the stronger story, especially regarding the twist (the twist in KOTOR2 felt a little "well, we can't top that, so let's try this other less impressive thing"). The characters and locations in the first KOTOR felt more diverse and interesting to me than the second. Bastilla, Carth, Jolee, HK-47 and Malak are remembered as strongly in my mind as any character from the (good) movies, but I can't remember many of them from the second game. Though I do remember that some of the locations in KOTOR2 did feel a little more "traditional" Star Wars while the first felt a little more "prequelly", so I liked that about it. The rushed ending of KOTOR2 also left a pretty bad taste in my mouth. Lastly, the original was more eye-opening and impressive because it came first, which is a stupid bias, but one I have nonetheless.

Even still, KOTOR2 was great, and all the praise I'm seeing for it here has me wanting to play it again. Maybe I could still change my mind.

 

[Jaeke]

People really seem to have a problem with endings on this site.

And also remembering endings (or lack thereof)

KOTOR 1 all the way.

 

[Geo88]

The rushed ending of KOTOR2 also left a pretty bad taste in my mouth. Lastly, the original was more eye-opening and impressive because it came first, which is a stupid bias, but one I have nonetheless.

Even still, KOTOR2 was great, and all the praise I'm seeing for it here has me wanting to play it again. Maybe I could still change my mind.

If you do decide to try it again, I highly recommend grabbing it for the PC if you don't have it already so you can play with the Restored Content Mod. Otherwise, you're absolutely right. The original ending is... well... Jaeke said it best.

And also remembering endings (or lack thereof)

The mod also makes a lot of tweaks and actually fills in story gaps, such as putting back the original plan for the Dantooine Enclave sublevel, dealing with the HK-50 issue and giving the game a proper ending.

Just a suggestion.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

I look back and see the world when KOTOR 1 was released. It's 2003, you've just come off the second letdown in the Prequels, and here you have this new Star Wars game telling a traditional Star Wars story, and telling it WELL. It's got its own Empire Strikes Back plot twist, and it manages to blow Lucas's most recent movies out of the water in terms of coherency and dedication to the saga.

 

[herbortamus]

I played them on Xbox, so I didn't have the luxury of mods.

My take is that the original is WAY better and I was floored when I submitted my answer and saw 2 winning. KotOR2 had so much filler dialogue. I have never heard so many words spoken that didn't say anything at all. I wonder who would win if the poll did not include mods.......

 

[Reven]

I played them on Xbox, so I didn't have the luxury of mods.

My take is that the original is WAY better and I was floored when I submitted my answer and saw 2 winning. KotOR2 had so much filler dialogue. I have never heard so many words spoken that didn't say anything at all. I wonder who would win if the poll did not include mods.......

I imagine it would be much closer but KOTOR 2 would still be in a slight lead, the storytelling and characters in 2 are just so much better than the first (I love the first game too and played through it several times, but i have to admit, most of the character motivations, particularly your companions don't make much sense)And i have a feeling that most people will take a slightly broken game with an amazing story over one with a story that is nowhere near as deep.

*edit
Also im not sure what you mean by filler? i found that pretty much all the dialogue in kotor 2 had some form of purpose in regards to the story etc.

 

[Nigh Invulnerable]

People complaining about the combat in both games have clearly never played a game of d20 based DnD or its ilk. KotoR is just Star Wars d20 in video game form, and that appealed to me greatly. Some of it was simplified, but it kept a lot of the mechanics from the tabletop games intact.

Also, I'll take 2 over 1 any day. The ending was broken due to a rushed schedule, but the characters and story were much more interesting than most of the cast in 1.

 

[Reven]

People complaining about the combat in both games have clearly never played a game of d20 based DnD or its ilk. KotoR is just Star Wars d20 in video game form, and that appealed to me greatly. Some of it was simplified, but it kept a lot of the mechanics from the tabletop games intact.

Also, I'll take 2 over 1 any day. The ending was broken due to a rushed schedule, but the characters and story were much more interesting than most of the cast in 1.

I agree, I found the combat incredibly appealing, and not just in the d20 system, the way auto attacks work (with the actual strikes and parries etc during the fight) is incredible and i honestly can't believe no other rpg uses it! It looks so much better than rpgs where people take swings at each other and occasionally look like they are actually parrying

 

[BrotherRool]

I played them on Xbox, so I didn't have the luxury of mods.

My take is that the original is WAY better and I was floored when I submitted my answer and saw 2 winning. KotOR2 had so much filler dialogue. I have never heard so many words spoken that didn't say anything at all. I wonder who would win if the poll did not include mods.......

There was another one of these threads a while back that didn't specify mods allowed and the ratio was exactly the same in 2's favour. (And it's not like the mods changed the existing dialogue)

I'm really surprised you found KotoR 1 dialogue to be better. I mean look at that opening dialogue
www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6c9FH-1rUY#t=1m13s

'We've been ambushed by a sith battle fleet. The Endar Spire is under attack.'

This is exposition. I am telling you what is happening. ~It's not a good first line

That's awful bland stuff, that doesn't even make the slightest bit of sense. The PC has been walking around and serving on that ship for a period of time now and he doesn't know what the ship is called? They couldn't think of any other way to get in exposition (and unneeded exposition) than 'What is the Endor Spire?' and thats the very first line of PC dialogue.

Or check out this remarkable display of human emotion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MO1xN7csfw

'Damn it women, if you keep hounding me, I'm going to put you on my knee and teach you a lesson'
~But in all honesty thats at least exciting. Most of his romance is the most awfully cliche stuff possible. "I'm a proud man... I don#t admit things like this easily." Yada yada yada Romance sub plot #4 or whatever.

To compare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfGPT0SaCrI#t=2m15s
'Find what you're looking for amongst the dead?'

 

[Nigh Invulnerable]

People complaining about the combat in both games have clearly never played a game of d20 based DnD or its ilk. KotoR is just Star Wars d20 in video game form, and that appealed to me greatly. Some of it was simplified, but it kept a lot of the mechanics from the tabletop games intact.

Also, I'll take 2 over 1 any day. The ending was broken due to a rushed schedule, but the characters and story were much more interesting than most of the cast in 1.

I agree, I found the combat incredibly appealing, and not just in the d20 system, the way auto attacks work (with the actual strikes and parries etc during the fight) is incredible and i honestly can't believe no other rpg uses it! It looks so much better than rpgs where people take swings at each other and occasionally look like they are actually parrying

I too enjoyed the dynamic actions of the characters during the fights. None of this Final Fantasy style dancing in place til it's their turn/the ATB gauge filled up and then making a single strike or spellcasting. Characters ducking and weaving, parrying, etc. all made things look neat.

 

[Ishal]

KOTOR 2. Specifically, for this, which isn't even declared in the game, but left intentionally ambiguous:

If that doesn't blow your mind...

This bit and the side arc of the torture droid GoTO are some of the best I've seen in any game.

I really liked Kreia. It is something deeply personal to me. I have lived my life thus far among the presence of several strong women. I'd say my life has been influenced by them in more ways than it has by other men.

Kreia is by far the best most insightful master of ANY star wars game or movie or book. She made me deconstruct light and dark and taught me lessons that I would bring to bear in college and religion classes later in my life. The idea that you do yourself a disservice by chaining your mind to one dogma and refusing to look at the other side. It is knowledge you should seek and not care what petty trifles and labels come with seeking out such things.

I even got a little misty eyed at the end when she fell. So many people disliked her, but I could never bring myself to hate her.

Captcha: Deep Waters. Yes I suppose they are.