Poll: KotoR vs KotoR 2 (Mods allowed!)

[UnusualStranger]

Personally? I think everyone is giving Kotor2 way too much credit. Sure, it is a fine game and has all sorts of fun moments, but it also has SO many flaws, and I'm going to, for arguments sake, ignore the horribly unfinished parts that it has.

Firstly, Kreia....This crazy woman who is apparently made of tough stuff and apparently quite intelligent. However, in all the times I have played and replayed this game, I have always found her intolerable. For 1, she seems to give NOTHING but dark side points. She brings up a good point? Dark side. You disagree? Dark side, and respect lost. Nothing happens? Respect lost. You could not please that woman if you brought her the galaxy on its knees and said "HERE, DO WHAT YOU WANT." 2nd, the stories of the characters can kind of....jump out of nowhere. Atton, for example, is apparently some super assassin with super mental powers to match. But it doesn't actually show at all, even AFTER you know about all this. You still get his stand-up-again bonus thing, and....thats about it.

Next, Combat at times can be horribly, HORRIBLY broken. As in, play your cards right and you can be a GOD, force jumping and one shotting Sith lords without a care. Or, you can build them differently and end up with a character who is lucky to KILL a Sith lord without horribly drugging up and running for it. Its a game that can't seem to hit a nice balance for what combat should or shouldn't be.

And then, the overall story arc....At first, it was all kind of mysterious and tricky, but once you manage to get away from Telos, it just devolves into a "Lets go here and find Jedi to learn....things about me from years ago that probably don't mean much any more." Frankly, in KotoR1, you were searching for star maps, hunting for something specific, and when you were trying to find something it had Galactic consequences weighing on your shoulders. What happens if you don't find the other Jedi for the exile? Well.....nothing really. Nothing good or bad is coming from your questing, just deaths and...thats about it.

So yeah...Kotor1 for me.

 

[Tragedy's Rebellion]

KotoR 2 is just incredible once you leave Peragus until the very end where they ran out of time or money or whatever and ruined the ending a bit. It has incredible characters like Kreia (seriously, can't stress her enough) Visas, Atton, Mira, Handmaiden (kinda), even T3 is fun; the others are mostly forgettable since I can't for the life of me remember what the Disciple's story was, while Bao-Dur, GOTO and the others were just there. I've heared complaints about Kreia that she's unpleasble from many people, but that's not the case. The only thing she wanted was for you to be open-minded and show her that you are willing to learn. She never DEMANDS anything from you, just for you to consider her advice.

It was a total deconstruction of the Force and how people perceive it. The best Star Wars media ever in my opinion, while Kreia is one of the most, if not the most, interesting characters in gaming period. It clearly showed that Obsidian's writers are brilliant, if not outright geniuses. Ok, maybe I'm gushing a bit, but I really think they nailed it.

KotoR 1 in comparison was rather bland and vaguely boring, still an incredible experience, but doesn't hold a candle to 2.

 

[Asita]

i did love kotor, but holy fuck did kotor 2 give kotor a wedgie and showed it how great star wars COULD be. crash landing on dxun in a basalisk and charging up that wall..fuckin loved it.

Oh god I hated that scene. Not because of the break-in or the idea of crashing in on a basilisk war droid, but because of what they used for the basilisk's model. Canderous had painted a very nice picture of the darn thing as a killer-droid mount in KoTOR1...and what did we get in KoTOR2? The StarViper from Shadows of the Empire. Honestly I'd have considered that to be downright inexcusible if I didn't know about how the pubs rushed the game out (which mandates that I cut the dev team some slack). As it stands, it's my second biggest pet peeve of that game (the first being the choppiness of the ending even with the Restored Content Mod).

And I really do have to agree with UnusualStranger. KoTOR2 was definitely more ambitious and had the makings of a potentially better tale, but at the end of the day KoTOR itself was a much more tightly woven narrative, which works to its advantage. KoTOR2 did a great job at adding depth to the universe and had some very interesting character concepts, but ultimately you had a better motivation and conflict in its predecessor.

 

[The Madman]

And then, the overall story arc....At first, it was all kind of mysterious and tricky, but once you manage to get away from Telos, it just devolves into a "Lets go here and find Jedi to learn....things about me from years ago that probably don't mean much any more." Frankly, in KotoR1, you were searching for star maps, hunting for something specific, and when you were trying to find something it had Galactic consequences weighing on your shoulders. What happens if you don't find the other Jedi for the exile? Well.....nothing really. Nothing good or bad is coming from your questing, just deaths and...thats about it.

So yeah...Kotor1 for me.

That's actually a draw for me. I'm sick of saving the world/galaxy/universe. I've done it a million times in a million different games. What I've begun to find much more compelling are stories where the main draw is the protagonist trying to save themselves.

I also really like the way Kotor 2 presents the main protagonist as an actual character instead of falling into the all too common 'faceless pastless rpg protagonist' trope. It felt like your character had a history and feelings of their own, heavily influenced by how the player chooses to play the character. That element added a great deal towards making the game feel more personal than most rpg do. Atris for example (White robed jedi lady) had feelings for your character, admired them even and what happened to your character as well as how you choose to play them has a huge effect on her actions. She doesn't exist merely as a landmark or obstacle, she has goals and purpose that tie in closely to your own. It makes her feel like a character and the story by extension feel more personal.

Kotor 2 also takes the time to try and explain characters in context of the game. In the first Kotor for example there's that wide-eyed innocent lil' blue alien girl who's all cheerful and chipper right to the end (Unless you kill her as sith, which admitedly is awesomely twisted!) despite, gameplay wise, having just murdered hundreds of people at your side throughout the game. It's not a game breaker, I'm used to ignoring gameplay/story inconsistencies. But Kotor 2 is one of the few games I've ever played that takes a moment to step back and say 'hey, this is messed up. We should probably explain why these characters would do this' and I appreciate the thought put into that. Again, it makes them feel more realistic and by extension, the story more personal.

Hell, Kotor 2 did a better job of making Revan a character than Kotor 1 did and he's not even in the game. In Kotor 1 all you really know is that Revan went all sith on the Jedi's asses, that's about it really. It's Kotor 2 that took a shot at giving Revan purpose beyond simply being some angry sith person, try to explain the 'why' and the 'how' of it all beyond the old Star Wars standby of 'dark side got-em' like it's some condition you can catch if you're grumpy too often.

But then that's my take on the game. I can understand the appeal of the sweeping massive scale rpg, hell, I've played enough of em and games like Baldur's Gate 2 which certainly is one of those 'epic' games are among my favourites. But sometimes it's nice to slow down and enjoy a more up-close take on the typical rpg story.

 

[UnusualStranger]

That's actually a draw for me. I'm sick of saving the world/galaxy/universe. I've done it a million times in a million different games. What I've begun to find much more compelling are stories where the main draw is the protagonist trying to save themselves.

I also really like the way Kotor 2 presents the main protagonist as an actual character instead of falling into the all too common 'faceless pastless rpg protagonist' trope. It felt like your character had a history and feelings of their own, heavily influenced by how the player chooses to play the character. That element added a great deal towards making the game feel more personal than most rpg do.

Hey, its fine to not want to save the galaxy again, and have it all on the line. But it feels really off when you end up facing a galaxy ending threat and...your character doesn't really care. "Galaxy villains are after me, but I need to figure out how to help myself!" Just seems...well, odd. As in, ignoring the problem.

But anyways, while I understand trying to give the Exile character, the problem is that you as the player DON'T KNOW what kind of character they are. There are times in dialogue choices, (especially when chatting with Atris) where you don't know what the hell they are even going on about. As in, the characters are discussing things that you never knew or experienced. Its great to have a character be their own person, but....not if I am playing as that character and I don't really know what they are at all.

And speaking of character explanations....of course Kotor 2 could expand all of Revan's story. Largely because his story was now all done and could be kinda figured out. During Kotor 1 he was STILL an active player and there was still a war going on. People don't have time to care about a big hero/villain when they are in danger of being bombed back to oblivion. For me, many of the characters just kind of fell flat aka Mandalore, Handmaiden.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

i did love kotor, but holy fuck did kotor 2 give kotor a wedgie and showed it how great star wars COULD be. crash landing on dxun in a basalisk and charging up that wall..fuckin loved it.

Oh god I hated that scene. Not because of the break-in or the idea of crashing in on a basilisk war droid, but because of what they used for the basilisk's model. Canderous had painted a very nice picture of the darn thing as a killer-droid mount in KoTOR1...and what did we get in KoTOR2? The StarViper from Shadows of the Empire. Honestly I'd have considered that to be downright inexcusible if I didn't know about how the pubs rushed the game out (which mandates that I cut the dev team some slack). As it stands, it's my second biggest pet peeve of that game (the first being the choppiness of the ending even with the Restored Content Mod).

And I really do have to agree with UnusualStranger. KoTOR2 was definitely more ambitious and had the makings of a potentially better tale, but at the end of the day KoTOR itself was a much more tightly woven narrative, which works to its advantage. KoTOR2 did a great job at adding depth to the universe and had some very interesting character concepts, but ultimately you had a better motivation and conflict in its predecessor.

while i understand that it is inaccurate for the swap, i just subbed that out in my mind because of the fact that everything else about it was awesome. and if THAT is your second biggest pet peeve of the game, you really must've loved the game, because that is such a tiny ass detail.

but oh well, i still loved kotor 1 to be honest, but if i had to break it down i would say i loved kotor 2 much more, especially for the expanded gameplay/customization elements of it all, plus the interconnectivity between your party of characters was genius i thought (how it was all voiced/reacted in situations) i really miss that...dragon age did a slightly different style of it, which was nice, but didn't quite hit the same vein that kotor 2 did.

 

[The Madman]

Hey, its fine to not want to save the galaxy again, and have it all on the line. But it feels really off when you end up facing a galaxy ending threat and...your character doesn't really care. "Galaxy villains are after me, but I need to figure out how to help myself!" Just seems...well, odd. As in, ignoring the problem.

But anyways, while I understand trying to give the Exile character, the problem is that you as the player DON'T KNOW what kind of character they are. There are times in dialogue choices, (especially when chatting with Atris) where you don't know what the hell they are even going on about. As in, the characters are discussing things that you never knew or experienced. Its great to have a character be their own person, but....not if I am playing as that character and I don't really know what they are at all.

And speaking of character explanations....of course Kotor 2 could expand all of Revan's story. Largely because his story was now all done and could be kinda figured out. During Kotor 1 he was STILL an active player and there was still a war going on. People don't have time to care about a big hero/villain when they are in danger of being bombed back to oblivion. For me, many of the characters just kind of fell flat aka Mandalore, Handmaiden.

The idea for the dialogue is that you choose based on how you think your character would have acted in said situations, not necessarily 'the exile', and thus your choices not only effect how your characters acts in the present but how they acted in the past as well. It's a damned clever idea that I think could have been better done if they'd had good voice acting for the protagonist... which isn't something I say often since a lot of my favourite rpg involve silent protagonist, but in Kotor 2's case I think a good voice actors inflection to the lines could have made the developers intentions much more clear and the dramatic moments all the more powerful. I really do love the idea however, it's a neat idea for creating an rpg character with a past without having to resort to a Mass Effect style list of possible history options on character creation.

As for the villains the majority of the game has them acting in shadows. You're not ignoring them, it's just, well, what else can you do? Unlike Kotor 1 there's no clear villain with an army at their sides, in this case you have a series of antagonist striking at various times for their own reasons but always in secret. Assassins sent in small groups, shadowy organizations working in the background. That's also the reason for the protagonist to pursue personal vendetta; your existence is going to draw your enemies to you regardless of what you do, and pursuing those personal plights might help things along so why not? I can see the frustration with the seeming lack of urgency, but it is explained.

And finally for Revan, you've a point. I do think it could have been better done in Kotor 1 however. As for Mandalore, spoiler I guess, he's Canderous from the first game. He's got some interesting stories to tell regardless of that if you get enough influence with him as well, which is nice, but the first game already went over most of his core character. Heck, his goals and motivations are given more time than Revans are, go figure.

Incidentally I just replayed Kotor 2 last week which is why this is all so fresh in my mind. Convenient timing!

 

[BrotherRool]

But anyways, while I understand trying to give the Exile character, the problem is that you as the player DON'T KNOW what kind of character they are. There are times in dialogue choices, (especially when chatting with Atris) where you don't know what the hell they are even going on about. As in, the characters are discussing things that you never knew or experienced. Its great to have a character be their own person, but....not if I am playing as that character and I don't really know what they are at all.

Oh that's a difference of taste, I absolutely love that kind of conversation because it keeps you on your toes and your brain has to be really active processing the information. One of the biggest problems with normal expositions drops is it's all too slow. In real life we automatically read a crud load of subtext behind every phrase ('I had the most awful hangover after last night' = 'I feel like some sympathy right now' 'I had a crazy good night last night' etc) and in fiction because we don't have experience of living with that person and seeing them in the flesh, we're missing all that stuff. Characters talking about events we don't know adds another layer of thought to bring us back up to an exciting level. Part of the fun is solving the mystery of who the PC is.

And in terms of this game, all the history was factual stuff and it still fitted with a lot of different personality types and would still lead to pretty much any character you'd choose to roleplay in the hear and now. For Atris you realise they were close but parted ways and thats all thats needed to set the tone of the conversation.

Firstly, Kreia....This crazy woman who is apparently made of tough stuff and apparently quite intelligent. However, in all the times I have played and replayed this game, I have always found her intolerable. For 1, she seems to give NOTHING but dark side points. She brings up a good point? Dark side. You disagree? Dark side, and respect lost. Nothing happens? Respect lost. You could not please that woman if you brought her the galaxy on its knees and said "HERE, DO WHAT YOU WANT."

There's a trick to pleasing Kreia, once you know that she respects neither light side or dark side but wants you to listen to what she says, every single point with her falls under that. Literally in any situation you can just say 'I will think upon what you said' and you get influence with her.

And the dark side points are a subtle point to one of the games big themes. The idea is, that if you use dishonourable methods to do a good thing, that act will eat away at you. The jedi joined the mandalorian war out of a good heart, but Revan understood that by being involved with a war it would destroy them from the inside and turn them. In the same way, when Kreia argues that being a dick to this person is better for them overall, thats the same trap so agreeing gives dark side points. It's telling that despite claiming to be grey Kreia is ultimately Sith

2nd, the stories of the characters can kind of....jump out of nowhere. Atton, for example, is apparently some super assassin with super mental powers to match. But it doesn't actually show at all, even AFTER you know about all this. You still get his stand-up-again bonus thing, and....thats about it.

Atton's comes up all the time. In the very first scene after you leave Peragus Kreia talks about it, and then again on Telos. And whenever you talk to him or about him they keep talking about a guilt he experiences whenever he looks at a Jedi. And he's got all these bonuses to fighting Jedi and if you ask him he always seems to know a huge amount about how to kill them. And every time you randomly murder someone, he admits that he feels exhilarated by it. They seed that plotline pretty thoroughly through the whole game

 

[UnusualStranger]

The idea for the dialogue is that you choose based on how you think your character would have acted in said situations, not necessarily 'the exile', and thus your choices not only effect how your characters acts in the present but how they acted in the past as well. It's a damned clever idea that I think could have been better done if they'd had good voice acting for the protagonist...

Alright, I gotta shoot this idea in the head really fast now. If you need voice acting to improve your game, then your writing needs work. And this is kind of counter to the "blank slate character" which you dislike. You are practically just writing your own character if you are allowed to just choose however you want him to be, meaning that you ARE working with a clean slate, not a character with his own parts. Anyways, voice acting would not improve this, because voice acting is a perk in its own right. I'm going all old school on you and going "Look we didn't need voice acting back then, so adding it in NOW isn't going to just magically improve it!"....

As for the villains the majority of the game has them acting in shadows. You're not ignoring them, it's just, well, what else can you do? Unlike Kotor 1 there's no clear villain with an army at their sides, in this case you have a series of antagonist striking at various times for their own reasons but always in secret. Assassins sent in small groups, shadowy organizations working in the background. That's also the reason for the protagonist to pursue personal vendetta; your existence is going to draw your enemies to you regardless of what you do, and pursuing those personal plights might help things along so why not? I can see the frustration with the seeming lack of urgency, but it is explained.

As for Revan, you've a point. I do think it could have been better done in Kotor 1 however. As for Mandalore, spoiler I guess, he's Canderous from the first game. He's got some interesting stories to tell regardless of that if you get enough influence with him as well, which is nice, but the first game already went over most of his core character. Heck, his goals and motivations are given more time than Revans are, go figure.

Incidentally I just replayed Kotor 2 last week which is why this is all so fresh in my mind. Convenient timing!

Yes, the lack of urgency is kind of explained, but it really seems to ignore how the Exile for MANY years just vanished, and now suddenly just feels a need to gather up Jedi/kill them for....whatever reason you choose. What, his ability to hide has just vanished now? I'm sure I am forgetting something, but he's been evading bounty hunters and all manner of people for years, and now it gets tossed?

And yes, it is Canderous, but there isn't really much explanation for how he got to this random point. He just decided "We need to get some more mandalorians." and goes and does it? And his reasoning for coming with you is largely "Cause I need to recruit some more people." as if he couldn't manage that himself. Largely, the characters seemed kind of...off to me. As, Mandalore is with you for somewhat flimsy reasons, Handmaiden doesn't really have much to say other than she doesn't have much to say, Visas can tell you a depressing story, and thats the only one you are getting. Atton is...well, he's almost just pure comic relief, with this random SUPER DARK PAST which doesn't come into play at any time other than when you bring it up to him once.

On the flipside, Canderous in Kotor1 holds his honor in high regard as you come to learn, and when someone challenges it he demands to go fight. Carth is all pissed off and whiny a lot of the time because of a dead family and betrayed by friends who helped kill them. Life dealt him a bad hand. Mission (the bubbly blue girl) is all happy go lucky because she's a born and raised crook, meaning that as a kid survival IS her fun time. As you talk to these three characters, you learn that Canderous has seen some things that you can only dream of at this point, Carth has gone through several of his own hells and betrayals, and Mission has been street living and stealing with a horrid family for as long as she has been alive. These are deep stories that you run into, that I just didn't really see at all in Kotor 2.

 

[The Madman]

Alright, I gotta shoot this idea in the head really fast now...

*snip, don't worry, I read everything. Just shortening quotes for post length*

Not quite sure I understand your point...

Spoiler: Gonna spoiler the rest since this is pretty long and I don't want to be spammy for those just casually reading the topic

The goal was that through your dialogue choices you determine how your character had acted in the past. This establishes character and motivations prior to those at present, which in turn removes the 'blank slate' trait. Not sure how you think it would make them more blank... it's establishing a character a prior relationships, that's the point, so you're not just a random pedestrian thrust into the spotlight with no real previous motivations beyond the initial gameplay experience.

Your character in Kotor 2 is 'The Exile', one of the many jedi that joined with Revan and Malak in the events prior to the first Kotor and who would later return from said events essentially a broken figure. Why they choose to do that however is what the player can determine, but that they must determine a reasoning makes it important to the plot, especially as it will effect characters relations with you later in the game.

And like I said I think voice acting in Kotor 2's case would have worked well because the added inflection to the characters words could have made the experience more dramatic. That's all. I honestly don't understand what you mean by voice acting making things a blank slate or proving bad dialogue.

Yes, the lack of urgency is kind of explained...

It isn't kind of explained, it's explained outright. Straight up. To your face so long as you're paying attention.

The protagonist is drawn out of their exile by the starting events of Kotor 2. It's also revealed that the exile was self-imposed and indeed there was no magical hiding or vanishing, they simply lived on the outskirts of republic society largely independently. The Republic and similar forces knew of the characters existence and their history, as do other jedi and indeed the villains as well, it's precisely that which pulls the protagonist into the games plot as once more prominent figures are gone, the exile is one of few known remaining 'jedi'. Prior to the events of Kotor 2 seemingly so minor and out of the way that the protagonist was barely worth notice which is why that self-imposed exile lasted so long and why the situation was as bleak as it was when finally they're pulled into the conflict.

And yes, it is Canderous, but there isn't really much explanation for how he got to this random point...

Again, it is said exactly why Mandalore is there should you choose to pay attention. It's all tied to Revan, with a pinch of manipulation on Kreia's side. But his motivations are explained, as are those of the Handmaiden and Visas. Do you really want me to go over each though because if so this is going to be really, really long...

I do think you're deliberately simplifying things for Atton though so I'll use him as an example, especially when you then go on to say...

Mission (the bubbly blue girl) is all happy go lucky because she's a born and raised crook, meaning that as a kid survival IS her fun time...

Un-huh. Mission.

Why does she follow Revan in Kotor 1? No, really, why? And why is she alright with killing in his name? Because her brother abandoned her? That hardly makes much sense. She's never portrayed as a killer, quite the opposite. That's why she needs the wookie to defend her and even then it's mostly just show. She's at worst a stereotype street urchin pick-pocket, only slightly older, blue, and less British. So then why has she just straight up murdered a small army in Revans name? What are her motivations in doing so? Why does she do what she does? HOW does she do what she does? And does she develop as a character for having done all that?

You say Attons past is 'super random' but it helps explain all those factors for his character in Kotor 2. Why can he kill? Because he has before, he's trained for it even and the fact that he was is heavily alluded to throughout the early sections of the game where for example you learn his mind is difficult to read and he's got advanced combat training despite his casual attitude (This is revealed when you encounter Atris for the first time). Why is he following the Exile? At first because of Kreia and later out of guilt over his past/manipulation of his past by the Exile as he grows to learn more about the protagonist and they interact. What are his motivations? At the beginning his are pretty much the exact same as the protagonists; self-imposed exile over his previous actions during the same period as the protagonists character. This is part of what forms a relationship between him and the protagonist; you have a shared history and are both seeking ways to get past it, whether that ends up delving into the darker side of things or redemption.

Ultimately this relationship, if you choose to pursue it, results in him becoming jedi/sith based on your decisions, giving his character a proper story arc with beginning, middle, and end within the context of the game.

It's part of why I like Kotor 2. I also want to stress that I don't hate Mission from Kotor 1, she's alright. A little dose of quirky and charming. Before playing Kotor 2 I played the first game so both are fresh in my mind and I enjoyed both. Nevertheless she's a pretty simple character. That the developers for Kotor 2 took the time to try and explain all those little details however is again part of why I enjoy it.

Do you see where I'm coming from at least?

Kotor 2 is far from a perfect game. Even with the Restored Content Mod it's buggy and there are far too many plot threads left unfinished by the end. The gameplay is also mediocre at absolute best and visuals more of the same from the first game. Can't say I'm too keen on either the soundtrack or even all the voice acting either for that matter as well.

Kotor 2 was over-ambitious, especially for a first game as it was for Obsidian at the time. Nevertheless I really like and appreciate what it was trying to do and admire the developers for having done so.

 

[Asita]

while i understand that it is inaccurate for the swap, i just subbed that out in my mind because of the fact that everything else about it was awesome. and if THAT is your second biggest pet peeve of the game, you really must've loved the game, because that is such a tiny ass detail.

Eh, yes and no? I do like the game, but the model managed to absolutely destroy my immersion in a single instant, which I view as a grave sin in media, to say nothing of my sheer annoyance at seeing a model repeated in a way that they can't internally justify. It's also worth noting that the thing that topped it is less an incident than it is a category that basically boils down to "everything the Restored Content Mod tried to fix"...ie: General choppiness and a prevalent 'incomplete feeling'. Arguably broad strokes, but the very existence of the aforementioned mod can attest to how they can add up. Individually most of those issues barely register for me, with some notable exceptions (for instance: The "Restore Telos" quest chain, a few inconsistencies on Malachor V that are explained by cut content).

 

[BrotherRool]

For the people arguing it should have improved the combat system from KotoR 1, the game was ordered to be made in 13 months (two of which were thrown away in negotiations) there is absolutely no way they could have added in a new combat system. They did add better force skills though, which helped a little bit.

Eh, yes and no? I do like the game, but the model managed to absolutely destroy my immersion in a single instant, which I view as a grave sin in media, to say nothing of my sheer annoyance at seeing a model repeated in a way that they can't internally justify. It's also worth noting that the thing that topped it is less an incident than it is a category that basically boils down to "everything the Restored Content Mod tried to fix"...ie: General choppiness and a prevalent 'incomplete feeling'. Arguably broad strokes, but the very existence of the aforementioned mod can attest to how they can add up. Individually most of those issues barely register for me, with some notable exceptions (for instance: The "Restore Telos" quest chain, a few inconsistencies on Malachor V that are explained by cut content).

So you're saying that the game that was released incomplete had a general 'incomplete feeling'? =D And TSLRCM is the 'restored content mod' so at least it's not fans making up a bunch of things to fix plotholes the devs were too lazy to fill in

 

[Asita]

Eh, yes and no? I do like the game, but the model managed to absolutely destroy my immersion in a single instant, which I view as a grave sin in media, to say nothing of my sheer annoyance at seeing a model repeated in a way that they can't internally justify. It's also worth noting that the thing that topped it is less an incident than it is a category that basically boils down to "everything the Restored Content Mod tried to fix"...ie: General choppiness and a prevalent 'incomplete feeling'. Arguably broad strokes, but the very existence of the aforementioned mod can attest to how they can add up. Individually most of those issues barely register for me, with some notable exceptions (for instance: The "Restore Telos" quest chain, a few inconsistencies on Malachor V that are explained by cut content).

So you're saying that the game that was released incomplete had a general 'incomplete feeling'? =D And TSLRCM is the 'restored content mod' so at least it's not fans making up a bunch of things to fix plotholes the devs were too lazy to fill in

I'm well aware. You'll notice I made a point of saying in my prior post that the publishers rushed it out before the devs were well and ready, and that I refered to the Restored Content Mod as...well, just that instead of its abbreviated title, which I'd think would hint that I had some knowledge of its focus and what it drew from. Doesn't mean I can't still point to those things as detracting from the game's overall quality.

 

[Terrible Opinions]

One game has Ravel Puzzlewell and the other doesn't.

This is pretty easy, really.

 

[Lovesfool]

The original one, because... Revan.

'nuff said.

 

[GabeZhul]

I go with Kotor II because of all the reason the OP has already mentioned, but I add two more:

-In the first game, you had a grand total of two factors that gave you more dialog options: Your persuasion skill and your Affect/Dominate Mind power. In Kotor II, almost every single skill and attribute can help you out. High intelligence can help you solve puzzles, high wisdom can help you defuse situations (and it is always fun to argue back to Kreia to the point where SHE has to admit YOU have a point ), high awareness, and even specific skills like medicine and security can help you with new options and possibilities. I just love how your choices and opportunities actually can change based on what kind of character you are playing as, and the game actually rewards you for playing as a less combat-oriented and more skillful character.

-The equipment-modding. To this day I hold my claim that Kotor 2 had the single best upgrade system in a single player game ever. You can upgrade literally everything (save for a very limited number of low-tech or special gear), the upgrades are significant and useful, and it actually also makes having a skill-focused character useful (or you can keep Bao-Dur around as a tech instead of turning him into a jedi, as he has the best skill-growth and bonuses in the entire game).

The only problem was that, well, Kotor II is not exactly a polished game (not by a long shot), but then neither was the original Kotor. The graphics are unpolished, the style is unpolished, the animations are unpolished, the combat is unpolished... Really, this is one of those games that deserve to have a full remake under a more technically proficient engine, and not because of the "it's old" sentiment, but because I really think the game would have benefited from a better presentation (and a completed development cycle, but that's a given).

Also, if we are at that, how good is the restoration mod? The last time I tried it was about a year ago, and there I got myself locked into an infinite loop by an added scene on Nar Shaddaa (it was my third planet to boot, so that means I lost a good 20 hours of gameplay because of it), so I am quite curious if they managed to make it less buggy in the meantime...

 

[Happiness Assassin]

Never played KotOR 2 with mods, so by default I am going with KotOR. Wonderful story, largely independent of the rest of Star Wars, and one of the best executed twists in all of video games. KotOR 2 was still an amazing game though; some of the most interesting characters in the Star Wars universe, darker tones, and the whole world was imbued with a sense of moral ambiguity that the first one just doesn't have.

But there are severe problems with the game itself that would completely hold it back: powers like force wave are completely overpowered and game breaking, several areas are completely uninspired and boring with their designs, the skill system from KotOR is still broken (though there are improvements to it), and by far the worst offender in the game itself, the game mechanics actively discourage not picking either extreme.

Let me elaborate on that last point. While Kreia herself is morally neutral, almost all of the advice she gives is dark side oriented. This is just one example of a discrepancy between the dark/light mechanics of the game and the actual narrative, something that is really inherent to all moral choice systems but is more pronounced by the fact that the game is asking you to put aside morality. Also the game won't allow you access to the extra tomb on Korriban is you are neutral and you get stat bonuses to you and that special crystal for going to either extreme. I believe that the game itself would have been better had they just tossed out the moral choice system.

 

[GabeZhul]

Let me elaborate on that last point. While Kreia herself is morally neutral, almost all of the advice she gives is dark side oriented. This is just one example of a discrepancy between the dark/light mechanics of the game and the actual narrative, something that is really inherent to all moral choice systems but is more pronounced by the fact that the game is asking you to put aside morality. Also the game won't allow you access to the extra tomb on Korriban is you are neutral and you get stat bonuses to you and that special crystal for going to either extreme. I believe that the game itself would have been better had they just tossed out the moral choice system.

In this case the problem is the lacking of the y-axis in this morality system for Lawful/Chaotic. What Kreai tries to teach the Exile is to be "Lawful Dark Side" instead of the crazy "Chaotic Dark Side" almost all the other Sith Lords embody. However, since the game's morality system only has an x-axis, Lawful Dark Side and Chaotic Dark Side registers the same.

In fact, since Light Side is almost entirely Lawful Good and nothing else, I would say that ANYTHING the player does that is not Lawful Good counts as Dark Side courtesy of the definition of not being light-side, even if the choice neutral or Chaotic Good. Because of that, doing a bad thing for the greater good is still registers as bad as mauling an entire orphanage to death with their dead caretaker's cadaver just for the evulz.

I much prefer the Fallout (minus 3) style system, where you have different standings in different communities, and how they view you depends on your actions towards them, not on some arbitrary karma system.

P.S.: As for your comment on the skill system being broken, I respectfully disagree. In the first game the only skills your main character had to invest were Persuasion and Security, maybe Repair/Computer Use if you had the extra points. The rest were useless. In the second game, every single skill is useful for something. All of them give you new conversation options, Awareness actually adds almost as much as Persuasion, Security is good for obvious reasons, Repair and Computer Use lets you use these skills to repair droids (huge amounts of bonus XP) and slice into systems to make your life easier (also lots of bonus XP), demolitions lets you collect mines for a varying amounts of bonus XP, and then you can later break them down to components, treat injury is essential at the beginning since you won't have healing powers for a while, but it also helps in quite a few quests. The weakest link is stealth, but again, like all the other skills, it too helps you make awesome mods for your equipment. Honestly, I don't really know what you are complaining about...

 

[Hargrimm]

And the dark side points are a subtle point to one of the games big themes. The idea is, that if you use dishonourable methods to do a good thing, that act will eat away at you. The jedi joined the mandalorian war out of a good heart, but Revan understood that by being involved with a war it would destroy them from the inside and turn them. In the same way, when Kreia argues that being a dick to this person is better for them overall, thats the same trap so agreeing gives dark side points. It's telling that despite claiming to be grey Kreia is ultimately Sith.

No, she's not. She's someone who holds a very Nietzschean worldview, it's just that the Star Wars black and white morality leaves no room for nuance, so any action that isn't directly helping someone is not considered good.
This is all but outright stated when she tells you "In conflict we find ourselves, or we find ourselves lacking" and 'conflict strengthens us, isolation weakens us'(paraphrased).
When she chastises you for helping someone, she does so because you are solving their conflicts for them, taking away their opportunity to grow and learn to solve their problems themselves. She also chastises you for petty cruelties and wanton murder, because there is nothing to learn for either you or your victim.

The rest of the game explores this concept further by discussing Echani and Mandalorian philosophy, the relationship between the jedi and the republic and the self-destructive nature of the Sith.

 

[UniversalRonin]

I have only played the first one. Still thanks to the miracle of the internet, and steams thirst for my money, it can be rectified.

Other than that, looking at the Black and white vs black and grey morality, who didn't always prefer the grey characters? The Bounty hunters and smugglers and such like. In the books, they always had the coolest stories (Tales from the Cantina, and Tales of the Bounty Hunters for example) Being a jedi/ sith would be ace, but being a self serving anti hero/ anti villain? Japes beyond compare!

So, in closing, I didn't vote, yet. But I will, after having a jaunt through the second one. (probably not- by the time I have played enough to be able to vote, this poll will be well buried in the vaults of the escapist forums. Honestly I just wanted to weigh in on the side of Grey vs Black morality.)