Poll: KotoR vs KotoR 2 (Mods allowed!)

[Mullac]

KotoR is my favourtie game and I, therefore, like it more than the second one. Don't get me wrong though, the second one is bloody good and definitely in my top 5 games of all time, it just felt unpolished. Also, the first one holds a lot of nostalgia for me which is probably clouding my judgment.

 

[Sacman]

Well I enjoyed the first game more... mostly because it's actually finished... and the combat isn't broken... it's a good game, no doubt, but not a great one... the second one had the chance to be, and it was cocked up by a rushed development that left it unfinished... and if it was given that extra time, I think I could say that it's be the better game... the more personal plot, that focused on change, growth and facing your past, was so unbelievably compelling... at first anyway, the ending sucked and everyone knows it, and the plot just sort of became less and less focused as time went on... with character arcs never finishing and lots of other plot threads that never went anywhere, regardless of how well written the characters were... but of course the thing that Kotor 2 does so well, is it's pretensions to grey morality, creating a stark contrast between, what your companions thought was the right thing to do, and what the jedi code tells you to do... never landing on a true right or wrong, and essentially making the dark side light side points, well pointless... which is the best thing you can do in that situation...

Honestly though, I think the biggest downfall of Kotor 2 is how over ambitious it is, especially with trying to take the series in a new direction... with the way it handled it's writing, it's characters, it's player choice, morality... and especially it's role playing, which is something that I didn't mention, but even though it's very underdeveloped, it's a very interesting way they handled revealing character back story, you know, actually giving you a very complex one, and it does a great job with playing into the themes of the story...

So, yeah... while Kotor 2 isn't exactly a "good" game... it had way more going for it than the first, which was cocked up by a rushed development... but I think the best thing you can say about it Kotor 2 is that it's greater than the sum of it's parts...<.<

 

[Elfgore]

Well get ready for a KOTOR 2 is awesome thread...

OT: I played both when I was little, like ten or eleven and I liked KOTOR 1 better due to the simple story. I didn't know what was going on in the second and when the two surviving jedi masters tried to kill me and then Kreia knocked you out, I just quit playing.

I recently bought and replayed both of them on steam. The second had the restored content mod and now that I am older I understand what is going on. The second wins until the end. That had to be the worst ending to a game I have ever seen. I mean it blows Mass Effect 3's ending out of the water and into space as how many questions it left unanswered.

 

[BrotherRool]

No, she's not. She's someone who holds a very Nietzschean worldview, it's just that the Star Wars black and white morality leaves no room for nuance, so any action that isn't directly helping someone is not considered good.
This is all but outright stated when she tells you "In conflict we find ourselves, or we find ourselves lacking" and 'conflict strengthens us, isolation weakens us'(paraphrased).
When she chastises you for helping someone, she does so because you are solving their conflicts for them, taking away their opportunity to grow and learn to solve their problems themselves. She also chastises you for petty cruelties and wanton murder, because there is nothing to learn for either you or your victim.

The rest of the game explores this concept further by discussing Echani and Mandalorian philosophy, the relationship between the jedi and the republic and the self-destructive nature of the Sith.

First of all, can I point out this is an incredibly cool discussion to be able to have, very few games present problems in a way that allows for this sort of disagreement.

So I would argue that whilst she does believe that helping people is taking away their opportunity to grow and learn to solve their problems themselves, that ultimately that line of thought is a trap and a way to alleviate the guilt of not helping people and will eventually lead to a dark side fall.

It's one of the things I like about KotoR2 the most, people love the grey on grey morality, but the game gives perfect space to accept or reject that, if you play a lightside or darkside storyline, the PC ultimately rejects K's lesson and believing it as true is only 1 option out of three. So I can argue that Kreia fell and she fell because ultimately she was wrong. Conflict can strengthen people, but only if you're already in a position to adequately take on that conflict. You don't see many homeless people strengthened by their inner homeless and becoming powerful people ready to take on the world. You don't see trauma victims becoming strong-willed confident people for dealing with their conflict. As often as not conflict weakens people and makes everything in their life more painful and difficult and they would give a lot to have someone help them out

 

[Smeatza]

Kotor 1 wins by default as Kotor 2 (even with restored content mods) is hardly even half finished and the ending is worse than ME3.

 

[Legion]

The only things that are definitely better in the first one (although I do still really like it) are the plot twist and the ending, everything else more or less was better in the second one. Especially starting as a Jedi rather than having to spend 10 or so levels playing as a soldier/rogue etc. I much preferred the characters in the second game, and the level of customisation.

That said, the twist in the first one is still better than any of the major story moments in the second game.

If both games were completely re-made with a high level of polish then I'd be ecstatic.

 

[Vivi22]

I'll admit that I've yet to finish KOTOR 2 (just bought it a while back and I'm slowly chipping away at it when I get the chance), but from what I have played of it, I have to say it's far better than KOTOR. Even with all the talk about it being half finished and somewhat rushed and what not, which I have no doubt is probably true, Obsidian still write a far better story and characters than Bioware has ever managed. And since the gameplay is otherwise pretty similar/identical, there's not a whole lot else to judge the two on.

Bioware simply do not write stories or characters that interest me. Their games tend to be filled with far too many cliche's and obvious plot developments/twists that make the whole experience utterly predictable and mundane to me. In fact, the big plot twist for KOTOR, which many people hail as being so amazing, was so blatantly telegraphed almost from the very beginning of the story that I don't think it even qualifies as a plot twist. I'd have had to turn my brain off and skip every bit of dialogue not to have figured it out almost immediately. Absolutely terrible writing frankly.

 

[Terrible Opinions]

Trust me, KotOR 2 takes a pretty big dive in the last few hours.

That said, it's still the better game.

 

[RJ 17]

Also KoTOR 2 had the problem of being broken at release, I don't want to hear excuses, it was broken and that's how I had to play it. Nobody forgives Oblivion for being odd and broken even with a large modding community, lets not pull a double standard and have the basis be "Judge it by its release".

This is the crux of the issue for me as well. If you're trying to judge "which game is better" you have to go by what they were when they were released. By allowing in mods, you're not determinining which game is better because mods add in/change content to the game. Essentially you're asking "Which game was MADE better by the fans?"

As-shipped, I go with KotOR 1, if for no other reason than "It was an actually finished game" while KotOR was missing large chunks of it. Had they actually finished the game, I likedly would be going with KotOR2. I liked the story and the characters and the fact that you could either convert your entire crew into Jedis or Sith.

But yeah, broken game is broken. Saying that KotOR2 becomes a lot better with mods is saying "Yeah this game isn't that great, but wait till you see what the FANS did with it!" If the fan-based mods are what make KotOR2 an enjoyable experience then it, as a game itself, failed. It's using the mods as a crutch to boost its standing.

So yeah, all hail Darth Revan and KotOR 1, the best of the Old Republic!

 

[Vivi22]

Trust me, KotOR 2 takes a pretty big dive in the last few hours.

That said, it's still the better game.

It could have Jedi pop out of my PC and try to cut me apart with lightsabers in the last few hours and I'd probably still like it more than KOTOR.

Actually that sounds like a pretty cool way to die. And if I managed to kill my attackers instead I'd have a lightsaber so win/win I guess. But yeah, I honestly have a really low opinion of the original KOTOR. Aside from HK-47 I'm not sure I can name anything that I really liked about it.

But yeah, broken game is broken. Saying that KotOR2 becomes a lot better with mods is saying "Yeah this game isn't that great, but wait till you see what the FANS did with it!" If the fan-based mods are what make KotOR2 an enjoyable experience then it, as a game itself, failed. It's using the mods as a crutch to boost its standing.

So yeah, all hail Darth Revan and KotOR 1, the best of the Old Republic!

I'm not playing it with mods and it runs perfectly fine for me now. I understand that it's missing content since the publisher rushed it, but even from the handful of hours I've played, what's there has been far and away better than KOTOR. I'm not sure it could possibly get bad enough in the last few hours to make it worse than KOTOR as far as I'm concerned. And I am being serious as I really don't like Biowares writing. The original KOTOR spent any time that HK-47 wasn't saying something boring the crap out of me.

 

[tehroc]

My only problem with KOTOR2 was getting prestige classes. As soon as you pass level 20, the game becomes entirely to easy. If you're good stasis everything and chop them up, bad just force lightning storm entire groups.

Bioware is really overrated in the writing department, Drew Kapershan was a hack. I read the first two chapters of Revan and then donated it to the local jail (those poor criminals need something else to read beside harlequin romance novels).

 

[thetoddo]

KotOR2, even without mods. I know Star Wars is supposed to be built on a stark black vs white moral dichotomy, and KotOR2 pretty much spit in its face, but I like it when my moralities mix a little bit.

There was always a bit of morally grey in Star Wars (See Obi Wan's response to Luke in Jedi regarding "points of view"). Heck, from a particular point of view the story of A New Hope can be summed up as:

A young desert farmer goes in search of a missing farmhand and meets a religious leader who trains him in extremist doctrine and encourages him to join a terrorist organization.

 

[Terrible Opinions]

The "point of view" line wasn't about morality. It can tie in to morality, but it never did in the film. New Hope's storyline isn't "grey" because it doesn't examine

A young desert farmer goes in search of a missing farmhand and meets a religious leader who trains him in extremist doctrine and encourages him to join a terrorist organization.

at all. It completely, uncritically says, "these guys good, those guys bad". Which is not an inherently bad thing, but... y'know, don't try to pretend it's something it isn't.

 

[thetoddo]

While my previous post was tongue in cheek (the empire blew up a planet, I can't pretend they were a benign government), I would argue that the point of view discussion is all about morality. Telling Luke that Vader had killed Luke's father was a manipulative lever Obi-Wan used to get Luke to follow him to Alderaan. True, his motives were to make sure Luke was still under his watchful eye since Obi Wan had to leave the planet, but the entire relationship was built on a lie.

 

[templar1138a]

Best Star Wars RPG ever is TOR.

Best out of those two, however, is KotOR 2 (plus the Restoration mod and a mod that adds a bunch of new robes and tunics).

 

[BrotherRool]

This is the crux of the issue for me as well. If you're trying to judge "which game is better" you have to go by what they were when they were released. By allowing in mods, you're not determinining which game is better because mods add in/change content to the game. Essentially you're asking "Which game was MADE better by the fans?"

As-shipped, I go with KotOR 1, if for no other reason than "It was an actually finished game" while KotOR was missing large chunks of it. Had they actually finished the game, I likedly would be going with KotOR2. I liked the story and the characters and the fact that you could either convert your entire crew into Jedis or Sith.

But yeah, broken game is broken. Saying that KotOR2 becomes a lot better with mods is saying "Yeah this game isn't that great, but wait till you see what the FANS did with it!" If the fan-based mods are what make KotOR2 an enjoyable experience then it, as a game itself, failed. It's using the mods as a crutch to boost its standing.

So yeah, all hail Darth Revan and KotOR 1, the best of the Old Republic!

I have to admit, I still way preferred KotoR 2 even comparing the shipped editions, it wasn't so broken or unfinished that the story didn't make sense or it was unplayable.

But I would argue that 1) Since the restored content was content that Obsidian made, designed and wrote it was just not complete enough to add into the game, we're still measuring developer skill. Whereas the best mod for KotoR was based entirely off original content and blew the game out of the water in terms of writing

And 2) If we're choosing which game we want to play right at this very moment, or which game someone should buy etc, or which one I would most enjoy if I were to load it up and play it now, mods become entirely relevant. Okay maybe release KotoR 2 didn't have the HK factory, but thats not how I'm going to play it now. Because it doesn't change the storyline from what Obsidian intended, and doesn't add content that wasn't meant to be there in the first place, there is exactly zero reason why someone would choose to play it unmodded.

 

[Hargrimm]

No, she's not. She's someone who holds a very Nietzschean worldview, it's just that the Star Wars black and white morality leaves no room for nuance, so any action that isn't directly helping someone is not considered good.
This is all but outright stated when she tells you "In conflict we find ourselves, or we find ourselves lacking" and 'conflict strengthens us, isolation weakens us'(paraphrased).
When she chastises you for helping someone, she does so because you are solving their conflicts for them, taking away their opportunity to grow and learn to solve their problems themselves. She also chastises you for petty cruelties and wanton murder, because there is nothing to learn for either you or your victim.

The rest of the game explores this concept further by discussing Echani and Mandalorian philosophy, the relationship between the jedi and the republic and the self-destructive nature of the Sith.

First of all, can I point out this is an incredibly cool discussion to be able to have, very few games present problems in a way that allows for this sort of disagreement.

So I would argue that whilst she does believe that helping people is taking away their opportunity to grow and learn to solve their problems themselves, that ultimately that line of thought is a trap and a way to alleviate the guilt of not helping people and will eventually lead to a dark side fall.

It's one of the things I like about KotoR2 the most, people love the grey on grey morality, but the game gives perfect space to accept or reject that, if you play a lightside or darkside storyline, the PC ultimately rejects K's lesson and believing it as true is only 1 option out of three. So I can argue that Kreia fell and she fell because ultimately she was wrong. Conflict can strengthen people, but only if you're already in a position to adequately take on that conflict. You don't see many homeless people strengthened by their inner homeless and becoming powerful people ready to take on the world. You don't see trauma victims becoming strong-willed confident people for dealing with their conflict. As often as not conflict weakens people and makes everything in their life more painful and difficult and they would give a lot to have someone help them out

Such is the magic of MCA.

[http://imgur.com/4IIS7rH]


That sort of pidgeonholing into light side/dark side is a bit lazy in my opinion. I mean, the dark side is never really defined throughout the game or Star Wars in general. Whether something is lightside/darkside is dependent on the author alone. Under Kreias' philosophy, giving money to a hobo is an immoral act(dark side), because it gives only a short term solution to a long term problem and might make him dependent on charity instead of looking for another way out. So not giving him money with the intention of letting him figure out a solution by his own strength is the good act(light side). Saying that Kreia's corruption is inevitable is begging the question.

The central question is really whether or not you accept the premise that the dark side is really a corrupting force, or if it's just people giving a name to actions and motivations they disagree with. We never really see any evidence of the force corrupting anyone. Yeah, their skin gets pale and the dark side has "evil" powers like lightning and choking, but it might just as well be a result of using a from of energy, the force, in a certain way. The Sith identify themselves as dark side, but they are really only a counter religion founded by those who rejected the Jedi teachings.
Kreia and basically the whole game decronstucts the whole light side/dark side absolutism by showing us different philosophies within the same universe, like Kreia's, the Echanis' or Mandalorians'. The only evidence we have of the Jedi or Sith interpretation of this form of energy called "the force" being the correct one is themselves. They claim that it works the way they claim, but just because they have found a method of utilizing this energy doesn't mean that they know all about it.
It's very much a mirror of religions like the judeo christian faiths claiming to know the one truth and believing in things like Satan or demonic posession.
Kreia goes even further and critizises the Jedis/Siths use of the force itself, claiming that it weakens them because they become reliant on it in a way that others, like Atton, don't.
The whole game is basically an introduction into ethics and philosophy, by way of critizising and deconstructing absolutist and dogmatic beliefs.

Calling her Nietschean was no accident on my part by the way. A lot of points like the self-reliance, growth through conflict and personal moral code as well as the admiration of the Exile as the one free from the forces influence are very similar to Nietzsches' "Übermensch" described in "Also sprach Zarathustra". Her heavy criticism of the dominant religion is also comparable to those of Nietzsches' "Der Antichrist".
It's beatiful really.

(Sorry for my rambling, but I didn't really see a way to directly address your points without implicitly accepting premises that I disagree with.)

 

[Soviet Heavy]

KOTOR 2. Specifically, for this, which isn't even declared in the game, but left intentionally ambiguous:

If that doesn't blow your mind...

 

[BrotherRool]

-snip-

Don't worry about the length, it was interesting. I'm not going to respond because we basically just have different beliefs and it would be a tricky and heavily political discussion to make much progress. The number of stories I've heard of people who've changed a deep rooted political position over a discussion of KotoR 2 is pretty small.

So I think what I want to say on the much less serious point of videogames is, people like KotoR 2 for it's grey-grey morality and other people have said that to them, that sort of destroys the point of Star Wars. But I think KotoR 2 less has a grey-grey morality, but challenges your concept of morality. So you can conclude that Kreia was wrong, or you can listen to what she says, she's not presented as all knowing, or even honest and reliable and her existence doesn't necessarily mean KotoR 2 is grey-grey or destroying the idea of light-dark, but what it does do, is make you think really hard about it, pretty much just through the strength of her arguments and she gives you the possibility to see a more complicated morality if you're open to it

 

[Soviet Heavy]

I think the reason that KOTOR2 stands up so well is precisely because it challenges your notions of Star Wars's Morality. It makes you step back and realize just how fucked up the setting is. The Jedi, defenders of truth and justice, use what is ostensibly a slave army to fight machines, before those same individuals turn against their leaders? They drag everybody into massive, galaxy shattering wars every time the Sith and Jedi start up another fight, and the only ones who suffer are the common folk.

It goes behind the romanticized front of the films and looks at how the world ticks.