Poll: RPG's with no level caps?

[kaziard]

OT i like games with no cap, take disgaea for example, you could pretty much play forever. Plus its gotta heap of additional content for those crazies getting to level five thousand etc.

Uh, Disgaea has a cap.

aye but its sufficiently godawfully high that it still seems like there aint, 9999 is pretty good going

 

[saejox]

disgaea has 9999 limit, but still there are guys transmigrate their chars 10 times. (reset level to 1 while keeping stats)

 

[Deacon Cole]

And levelling up clearly brings 'something', since many people enjoy it I guess for those of us who do enjoy it, what it ''brings to the table'', is fun.

I am asking for something deeper than "fun." That is a shallow answer. What we need is to look at leveling up objectively and recognize what it is, what it does, and how it effects gameplay. Then we can examine it with greater clarity. So what does leveling up actually do?

(NOTE: and since you've already repeated the point, I'll say that I don't care that many people enjoy it. That is without substance. I am more interested in why they enjoy it and "because it's fun" says nothing)

 

[Meggiepants]

It depends. Some games play well with level caps. It adds a new element to your RPG experience. In my experience, games that have low level caps, like Fallout or Oblivion, are more flexible with your leveling. You can pick any skill to level no matter your class. They do it so that when you play the game through a second time, you can have a unique experience. So the level cap is part of the challenge in those games. You want to sepnd your attribute points wisely. I don't think this is bad, just different.

Usually, with games that have extremely high level caps, I rarely get up to it. Even if the cap is level 99, I'm probably not going to play the RPG that long anyway. But these games tend to have a more set leveling tree. You can't specialize in everything. If you can, then I think that's a mistake on the game designers part. FF does this a lot. If you level up enough, all your characters can have all the powers. It makes them all the same character, they are no longer unique. For me, this is a flaw in the design, because as I level, I will do this just because I like to complete grids. It's an uncontrollable urge for me, probably some strange compulsive disorder, but as such, by the end of the game, all my characters are the same.

But sometimes games with essentially no level caps can be amusing to play as well.

OT i like games with no cap, take disgaea for example, you could pretty much play forever. Plus its gotta heap of additional content for those crazies getting to level five thousand etc.

Uh, Disgaea has a cap.

aye but its sufficiently godawfully high that it still seems like there aint, 9999 is pretty good going

Disgaea is an excellent example of a crazy ass game with essentially no level cap, and so many different skills you can learn that it gets kind of ridiculous at the end. But if you really want to play a game where you can deal like 500k damage to some beastie, then this is your game. I'm fairly certain I played up to around level 1,900 or so. But Digaea is a Strategy RPG. It can get away with this because each playing field is randomly generated and there are ton of options on how to clear the field. I can't even fathom playing FFX to level 150, let alone level 1,000. Gah! The battle system wasn't that interesting!

 

[karloss01]

i know that NCsoft are toying with the idea of no level cap in guild wars 2, as you level the enemies you fight also level to your groups average so there is always a challenge. but really the levels are there to keep it balanced dispite some RPGs messing it up.

 

[Latinidiot]

don't care. I like a levelcap to keep it interesting, and a lack of levelcap because you can own.

like with Bioshock(I know it has no level system, hush), when I went back to Medical pavillion and beat the first big daddy with only a wrench.

 

[Little Duck]

No limits. Online, the levels should mount slower (as in 1 level every few months) and have less consequence.

 

[Tharwen]

IF there was no level cap, Then you'd continue leveling until the game would prevent you from leveling any farther, Ever the best monsters would be easiest for you.

Unless the monsters became proportionally harder to defeat, which I think most games without a level cap do.

That kind of defeats the purpose of leveling up, doesn't it? What is the point of leveling up if the obstacles level up with you?

Some of the monsters have a lower bound on their levels, and perhaps there's a slight level lag between you being able to kill them and them starting to catch up with you. Also, you get more abilities when you level up, which is a huge incentive.

 

[Shock and Awe]

With, I don't want it to be TO easy.

 

[BIGB0SS]

without level limitation only in online RPGs

 

[Deacon Cole]

How about RPGs without levels. PnP RPGs have had that concept since the 80's why are CRPGs still so very far behind ?

The 80's? Really? Which games?

Traveller, Call of Cthulthu, Star Wars, etc etc etc

Edit:- Im pretty sure WFRP was around then as well. GURPS as well & likely HERO system that might be a touch early though. Oh and Stormbringer and Judge Dredd

I see. Of course, those games don't really remove levels so much as divide them up among the various abilities and skills. So it's still the same thing, just more complicated.

 

[muffincakes]

IF there was no level cap, Then you'd continue leveling until the game would prevent you from leveling any farther, Ever the best monsters would be easiest for you.

Unless the monsters became proportionally harder to defeat, which I think most games without a level cap do.

That kind of defeats the purpose of leveling up, doesn't it? What is the point of leveling up if the obstacles level up with you?

I hate to throw in a bit of thought here, but if I recall, most RPG's don't allow you to level as a naked fist fighter. Part of these games battle requirements is earning better gear, typically found as monster drops. Most characters don't do so well with a wooden sword and cloth armor(if they are warriors), so it is important to level your equipment along with your character levels.

Now if you haven't gotten the point yet, it is that when RPG's have level-scaling enemies, they actually do get harder, because their equipment improves with them but, their equipment still has its own cap, so even with scaling enemies, your equipment can still be much greater than theirs, thereby giving you your god-like powers anyway. To sum it all up: The purpose of leveling is to be able to get better equipment, not to get inhuman base stats. It is the equipment that gives you power instead of your character level.

 

[Deacon Cole]

Some of the monsters have a lower bound on their levels, and perhaps there's a slight level lag between you being able to kill them and them starting to catch up with you. Also, you get more abilities when you level up, which is a huge incentive.

I think that lag idea would be a bit complicated to implement.

But you do make a good point about gaining new abilities, which should be kept distinct from increasing abilities, even though both are lumped together in leveling up.

 

[Orcus The Ultimate]

IF there was no level cap, Then you'd continue leveling until the game would prevent you from leveling any farther, Ever the best monsters would be easiest for you.

unless they would adapt and have similar levels than yours

well, yeah, but that usually sucks.

not necesarily, if there are different difficulty levels, and if the sidequests can be redone in many different ways, so there's a larger amount not only of replayability, but of content (aka stuff to do..) it might work.

 

[Deacon Cole]

To sum it all up: The purpose of leveling is to be able to get better equipment, not to get inhuman base stats. It is the equipment that gives you power instead of your character level.

As said earlier, there are two distinct things that get lumped together in leveling up. One is gaining new abilities, the other is improving existing abilities. Whether it's equipment, the character itself, or anything else, it still boils down to these two basic effects. New equipment can mean new abilities, but often it just means hitting someone with a sword better.

But what can we learn from this?

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Level caps are inane arbitrary things that devs come up with when they can not balance or work out game mechanic issues, to me its rather simple "scaling X difficulty setting X character level +/- story progress= enemy level and ability" instead of doing it this so you can enjoy the game at your own pace to grind when you want you get hit with insipid rules that simple drag the game down..

The caps did not stop me from exploring FO3 to find the caps and limits on skills/levels sucked and it lacked balance all around..... it just made the feel all the more mediocre and limited.... A better way to handle DLC is to implement it where you get halved in your level/skills perks or you start new or be an ass and just add the DLC and play as your god character, when it comes to DLC and RPGs they have to stop thinking they are adding to a blank slate to the game, people have already been there done that adding new stuff with less caps is a bit disingenuous.

 

[Arisato-kun]

I think it's an interesting concept, which is why I play Disgaea. A level cap of 9999 and you can reincarnate as much as you want to increase your stats? Sounds good to me.

 

[Orcus The Ultimate]

well, as of today, it seems the majority agree with what i've said...

 

[Alex_P]

How about RPGs without levels. PnP RPGs have had that concept since the 80's why are CRPGs still so very far behind ?

The 80's? Really? Which games?

Traveller, Call of Cthulthu, Star Wars, etc etc etc

Edit:- Im pretty sure WFRP was around then as well. GURPS as well & likely HERO system that might be a touch early though. Oh and Stormbringer and Judge Dredd

I see. Of course, those games don't really remove levels so much as divide them up among the various abilities and skills. So it's still the same thing, just more complicated.

I can't think of many games from the 80s that eschewed power advancement altogether, mostly because I don't play those games. Because games were still overwhelmingly focused on modeling characters in terms of competency, it's not really surprising that most designers felt they needed some kind of advancement mechanic; there are more examples of games that don't do that around now.

IIRC, in-play advancement in Traveller was (intentionally) so slow that it hardly made a difference, though.

-- Alex

 

[Deacon Cole]

Except of course it increases immersion, is more realistic, allows for role playing as opposed to class playing (a subtle but large issue). It also allows players to see and and result of their choices & their preferences growing their character rather than an artificial leap in ability every 15 minutes. Things like hit points the primary reason for levels are implicitly detrimental to any role playing experience.

Most skill based systems actually lack any trace of 'levelling' particularly CoC's method which scales appropriately to the REAL WORLD.

Who wants to play a hero who at the begining of the adventure gets killed as easily by a rabbit as by a balrog a few days later? Look at D&D based games, players start with 4-12 hit points & a few days of play later have 120-360 ? This is comparable to a real world example how ?

Hey guys I can be killed by a single sword blow but give me some time to go squash rats & then I can take 30 ??????

How is wide leaps of ability related to opening a box or finding a door ? It isnt these mechanisms are artificial for children to measure their own advancement in some pathetic penis measuring scale. They are constructs from an artform that abandoned them 30 years ago.

That is a magnificent expression of your opinion.