Poll: Should feminists be involved with anime mediums?

[MysticSlayer]

I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to watch and comment on anime simply because I'm a feminist. I can be critical of the presentation of women in the show just as much as I can be critical of plot holes or a character I don't like. It doesn't mean I don't like the show. It just means that I think the writing could have improved in a certain area. I still love Wolf's Rain despite disliking that four episode recap of the first half of the show. I still love Golden Time despite finding Koko's character to be a little too weird at the beginning. Likewise, I can think that a show could do a better job of presenting women while still finding it to be an overall enjoyable show. It's a form of criticism, just like all other story criticism, and finding some bad aspects doesn't mean I hate the whole. It just means I'm willing to recognize both the good and bad of the show.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to watch and comment on anime simply because I'm a feminist. I can be critical of the presentation of women in the show just as much as I can be critical of plot holes or a character I don't like. It doesn't mean I don't like the show. It just means that I think the writing could have improved in a certain area. I still love Wolf's Rain despite disliking that four episode recap of the first half of the show. I still love Golden Time despite finding Koko's character to be a little too weird at the beginning. Likewise, I can think that a show could do a better job of presenting women while still finding it to be an overall enjoyable show. It's a form of criticism, just like all other story criticism, and finding some bad aspects doesn't mean I hate the whole. It just means I'm willing to recognize both the good and bad of the show.

Key difference is merely based off this post alone, you've proved you're clearly rational and sane. I truly believe the way most non-anime Westerners would view the medium goes along the lines of seeing a glimpse of an ecchi, then going "this is sexist!" and looking at Attack on Titan and going "it's the only good thing."

Putrid.

 

[Queen Michael]

I just thought of something. I think what you're doing here is a fundamental attribution error.

To wit: When feminists act aggressive, it's because "all feminists are hyperaggressive." But when you act aggressive, it's because other people are being unreasonable or whatever. In short, the difference isn't that you're less aggressive (from what I can see), it's that you consider yourself to have good reasons for your aggressive behaviour.

Or at least that seems to be how you see things.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

I just thought of something. I think what you're doing here is a fundamental attribution error.

To wit: When feminists act aggressive, it's because "all feminists are hyperaggressive." But when you act aggressive, it's because other people are being unreasonable or whatever. In short, the difference isn't that you're less aggressive (from what I can see), it's that you consider yourself to have good reasons for your aggressive behaviour.

Or at least that seems to be how you see things.

Yes, when I am pissed, I likely have a good reason (in my opinion) because of how neutral or mellow I am for the most part. Because I truly care for my interests, and believe I do have a deeper understanding or caring for them than most people.

Make no mistake, I am not someone who merely watched Attack on Titan, Elfen Lied, or Sword Art Online, claim they are the best shows ever and insinuate I know of the medium. No, I am someone who likes anime no one in the West really knows of, and am always willing to discover more.

 

[senordesol]

Here's what I don't get about these vitriolic anti-feminist posts: what are you so afraid of? So what if someone didn't like something you like? Do you think it's going away by virtue of that fact alone?

It's not going away. Worst case scenario: we get some media that goes out of its way to be more inclusive. Not exactly worth having a meltdown over.

Maybe think about that next time you want to convince us how 'reasonable' you are.

 

[Queen Michael]

I just thought of something. I think what you're doing here is a fundamental attribution error.

To wit: When feminists act aggressive, it's because "all feminists are hyperaggressive." But when you act aggressive, it's because other people are being unreasonable or whatever. In short, the difference isn't that you're less aggressive (from what I can see), it's that you consider yourself to have good reasons for your aggressive behaviour.

Or at least that seems to be how you see things.

Yes, when I am pissed, I likely have a good reason (in my opinion) because of how neutral or mellow I am for the most part.

Who isn't? Who wakes up furious and stays that way for the rest of the day? Nobody. Of course it's gonna seem as if feminists are hyperaggressive if the only time you see them is on the web when they're debating feminism. And everybody who gets pissed feel they've a good reason to. You're no different from anybody else there, mate.

You know, I'm gonna take a few minutes and explain the reasons you're not getting as much agreement here on the forum as you'd like.

1. You say that you called a feminist the nastiest things you could come up with, but then you explain that it's the feminists that are hyperaggressive.

2. You have a bizarre definition of "pro-American."

3. In one paragraph, you say that you're not generalizing and that all feminists are hyperaggressive.

4. You judge people's rationality by how much they agree with you. The only people here you've called "rational" are the ones agreeing with you partly or completely. How am I supposed to have a rational debate with someone who thinks that the only rational people are the ones who agree with him already?

5. You jump to conclusions about me, and flat-out tell me that I haven't read the thousands of manga books that I darn well have read. You do this because of one comment from my side.

6. You say things like "Maybe I just have to accept the fact that I am open-minded, mature, and patient enough to see any medium or genre for what it is worth. Most people are not like me..." You're basically talking about how awesome you are, making sure to add that other people don't at all tend to be that awesome.

And for the record, I read manga that I've imported from Japan and that hasn't even been scanlated by fans. I care about my interests too, but I can tell when there's problematic stuff in them.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

are you insinuating I am insane or crazy @Queen Michael

 

[mecegirl]

are you insinuating I am insane or crazy @Queen Michael

I'd take a stab that Queen isn't insinuating that you are insane or crazy. I'd also say that Queen isn't insinuating anything at all. Queen has told you flat out what they think of your arguments. There is no need for you to read between the lines, or try to put words in Queen's mouth. Its not like they are beating around the bush with you.

OT:

You were in the wrong, and its a good thing that you were banned becase I'm fairly sure that such behavior would be against the rules(as the are in most public forums on the internet). If you can't debate someone without calling names then it is best to not debate at all. That is why forums have block/ignore buttons. There are some people who you will disagree with strongly enough that there is no point in talking to them. Its often to the benefit of your sanity that you don't engage with such people if you do not have to.

 

[Queen Michael]

are you insinuating I am insane or crazy @Queen Michael

First of all, using the quote button would be a great idea.

Secondly, I'm insinuating that you might need a bit more self-awareness. I'm not saying that to be rude or condescending, and I'm sorry if it sounds that way. What I mean is that you accuse other people of hyperaggressiveness while being hyperaggressive yourself; you claim to be open-minded while only calling people "rational" if they agree with you; when I tell you I've read thousands of manga books you tell me that you "easily see through my deception," even though I'm telling the truth; and in general you seem extremely eager to jump to the conclusion that whoever's disagreeing with you just don't know anime the way you do and just aren't as rational as you are...

In short, you have a worrying tendency to claim that no rational person, and no person who knows anime and VN, could disagree with you sincerely.

Here's what you said about me:

"This quote proves to me you have no major involvement with the medium, in any shape or form, and are just tagging along to oppose me. I do not want any business with someone who does not know much of what I am trying to get at, sorry."

It's a pretty good example of your tendency to discard dissenters. With just one sentence from my side, you decided that you didn't need to listen to anything I was saying and that you actually knew the manga-reading habits of a complete stranger from another country. That you might be wrong about how much manga I've read is something you didn't even seem to consider.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

are you insinuating I am insane or crazy @Queen Michael

First of all, using the quote button would be a great idea.

Secondly, I'm insinuating that you might need a bit more self-awareness. I'm not saying that to be rude or condescending, and I'm sorry if it sounds that way. What I mean is that you accuse other people of hyperaggressiveness while being hyperaggressive yourself; you claim to be open-minded while only calling people "rational" if they agree with you; when I tell you I've read thousands of manga books you tell me that you "easily see through my deception," even though I'm telling the truth; and in general you seem extremely eager to jump to the conclusion that whoever's disagreeing with you just don't know anime the way you do and just aren't as rational as you are...

In short, you have a worrying tendency to claim that no rational person, and no person who knows anime and VN, could disagree with you sincerely.

Here's what you said about me:

"This quote proves to me you have no major involvement with the medium, in any shape or form, and are just tagging along to oppose me. I do not want any business with someone who does not know much of what I am trying to get at, sorry."

It's a pretty good example of your tendency to discard dissenters. With just one sentence from my side, you decided that you didn't need to listen to anything I was saying and that you actually knew the manga-reading habits of a complete stranger from another country. That you might be wrong about how much manga I've read is something you didn't even seem to consider.

I said that because it's hard to believe without proof. I, for example, work on MAL and VNDB as bases and fiddle with blogs now and then.

 

[Queen Michael]

are you insinuating I am insane or crazy @Queen Michael

First of all, using the quote button would be a great idea.

Secondly, I'm insinuating that you might need a bit more self-awareness. I'm not saying that to be rude or condescending, and I'm sorry if it sounds that way. What I mean is that you accuse other people of hyperaggressiveness while being hyperaggressive yourself; you claim to be open-minded while only calling people "rational" if they agree with you; when I tell you I've read thousands of manga books you tell me that you "easily see through my deception," even though I'm telling the truth; and in general you seem extremely eager to jump to the conclusion that whoever's disagreeing with you just don't know anime the way you do and just aren't as rational as you are...

In short, you have a worrying tendency to claim that no rational person, and no person who knows anime and VN, could disagree with you sincerely.

Here's what you said about me:

"This quote proves to me you have no major involvement with the medium, in any shape or form, and are just tagging along to oppose me. I do not want any business with someone who does not know much of what I am trying to get at, sorry."

It's a pretty good example of your tendency to discard dissenters. With just one sentence from my side, you decided that you didn't need to listen to anything I was saying and that you actually knew the manga-reading habits of a complete stranger from another country. That you might be wrong about how much manga I've read is something you didn't even seem to consider.

I said that because it's hard to believe without proof. I, for example, work on MAL and VNDB as bases and fiddle with blogs now and then.

You mean it's pretty hard to believe I read lots of manga books without proof?

Also, what's MAL and VNDB?

 

[Vault101]

everything is (and should) be subject to criticism

even criticism from a femenest/whatever perspective

@Queen Michael

I see all feminists as extremists. Given the way they act, it's hard not to come to such a conclusion and view them with the highest disdain. Don't forget there's a topic describing how they've extended their antics to children's toys, or how Grand Theft Auto V is getting boycotted.

....ok

[img/]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/2909206/mary-poppins-o.gif[/img]

I think I've just about seen all I need to see

 

[Sung-Hwan]

@Queen Michael
http://myanimelist.net/profile/Arcana-XII My MAL profile

https://vndb.org/u74784/list My VNDB account

http://lennyyoo.wordpress.com/2014/10/04/34/ at least one of the blogs I manage, though under construction.

Should give you some insight to who I am, or what I like.

 

[Queen Michael]

@Queen Michael
http://myanimelist.net/profile/Arcana-XII My MAL profile

https://vndb.org/u74784/list My VNDB account

http://lennyyoo.wordpress.com/2014/10/04/34/ at least one of the blogs I manage, though under construction.

Oh, you meant My Anime List. I made an account there five years ago and started listing the manga I've read. (At least I think it was there. Like I said: five years ago.)

But I think that's why you consider yourself to be much more knowledgeable than others: Because while you have watched lots and lots of anime, you won't believe that other people do too unless they provide you with evidence. And... That's just not how it works for most people. We don't go around assiduously collecting evidence of something pretty much nobody asks us to prove in the first place.

 

[senordesol]

@Sung-Hwan, you seem to be under the impression that Fandom has to be earned. As if being a fan for longer somehow gives you the authority or license to decide who can like the thing you like. It doesn't.

You are not the gate keeper. You do not get to call someone a liar based on one sentence. You don't get to insult anyone just because they hold a different opinion on the things you like.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

@Queen Michael
http://myanimelist.net/profile/Arcana-XII My MAL profile

https://vndb.org/u74784/list My VNDB account

http://lennyyoo.wordpress.com/2014/10/04/34/ at least one of the blogs I manage, though under construction.

Oh, you meant My Anime List. I made an account there five years ago and started listing the manga I've read. (At least I think it was there. Like I said: five years ago.)

But I think that's why you consider yourself to be much more knowledgeable than others: Because while you have watched lots and lots of anime, you won't believe that other people do too unless they provide you with evidence. And... That's just not how it works for most people. We don't go around assiduously collecting evidence of something pretty much nobody asks us to prove in the first place.

I don't have a profile for bragging rights if that's what you're insinuating again. I just happen to manage my stuff there, and instead of mocking me for it, you could acknowledge my experience with the mediums.

I really think it's just the fact that I am Asian, and have always been with animated media, and you're just a Westerner, who's likely only known Marvel or DC. I don't find it strange if you can't get into anime, but don't claim things that aren't true like everything being pandering.

 

[Sung-Hwan]

@Sung-Hwan, you seem to be under the impression that Fandom has to be earned. As if being a fan for longer somehow gives you the authority or license to decide who can like the thing you like. It doesn't.

You are not the gate keeper. You do not get to call someone a liar based on one sentence. You don't get to insult anyone just because they hold a different opinion on the things you like.

Someone with more experience in a medium than another has the authority to call people out for saying untrue things. Same applies to me, as I am not really the all-knowing of anime just yet. Save that for some day in the far future, when I have seen more than a 1000 shows.

 

[senordesol]

No one cares.

If you can point out something someone said that is factually inaccurate, then all that proves is that they were incorrect. It proves nothing in terms of their fandom; and nothing still on the validity of your premise.

 

[Armadox]

Anime like all art is subjective, and you can not form an argument about an art as a whole without admitting it's an opinion and that you haven't seen all of it (which should be set and standard when dealing with anything subjective). Yes, art should be scrutinized from every aspect and every group, as that is the point of art. How art effects you and what you feel defines you. To deny anyone that because you disagree with it is to invalidate the artwork itself.

"Man chooses and makes himself by acting. Any action implies the judgment that he is right under the circumstances not only for the actor, but also for everybody else in similar circumstances."- Franz Adler.

I can not say you are wrong for your opinion. You are not. How you handled the displaying of your opinion is wrong, but that is a social and moral issue, not about what is on topic. Is there sexism in anime? Yes. There is sexism in all things in large and small verities that come down to dimorphic sex roles. There is nothing wrong with that in some ways as long as you can look at it, and understand what it is that you're looking at and if what subject you are looking at is or is not for you. You can have a negative opinion of that subject, but it should always be for the subject itself and not be used to paint all art of that field.

If a subject is not for you, you can express that, but it doesn't devalue the art that you are looking at. If you are for said art, then that is for you, but you shouldn't yell at those whom the art is not for, nor discredit their opinions for what they would prefer changed. You can not stamp out sexism in art, because even art designed to offend is still art and deserves to be made and evaluated [footnote] This again has to harken back to the fact that it has to be legal in the first place. Banksy is a good artist, but his art is still when you get down to it vandalism.I appreciate and applaud his work when done legally, but when not, I will not be ignorant for when he gets caught and fined. [/footnote].

 

[Queen Michael]

I don't have a profile for bragging rights if that's what you're insinuating again. I just happen to manage my stuff there, and instead of mocking me for it, you could acknowledge my experience with the mediums.

I really think it's just the fact that I am Asian, and have always been with animated media, and you're just a Westerner, who's likely only known Marvel or DC. I don't find it strange if you can't get into anime, but don't claim things that aren't true like everything being pandering.

1. I never said that you had the profile for bragging rights. But I will gladly admit that bragging rights is what motivated me to get mine.

2. Um, I've always "been with animated media" too. I watched the Gummi Bears, Sailor Moon, Grodan Boll, Thundercats, Darkwing Duck, and a whole lot of other stuff as a kid. All of them animated, thankyewverymuch.

3. "Someone with more experience in a medium than another has the authority to call people out for saying untrue things." Except you're really just taking for granted that you've got more experience.

4. "I just happen to manage my stuff there, and instead of mocking me for it, you could acknowledge my experience with the mediums." I didn't mock you for it.

5. "don't claim things that aren't true like everything being pandering." I never said everything's pandering. If you say I claimed that, then you're the one claiming things that aren't true, not me, mate.