Poll: There are only 2 genders....right?

[Knight Captain Kerr]

Another day, another opportunity for heteronormativity to annoy me. Anyway, disagree. Much like how sexuality isn't just heterosexual and homosexual there are gender identities that aren't just male and female.

Also as people have already said Gender =/= Sex. And even sex isn't as simple as male/famale because intersex people exist.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

You know the more I see the more it worries me how society is progressing in terms of understanding gender as an identity, instead of misusing gender in place of sex. I think that the worst part is how many people are ignorant of gender diversity, and how many doggedly stick to that ignorance out of spite, especially where transgendered people are concerned. Then people insist they understand transgenderism, then say say something about beliefs and totally invalidate themselves by proving they don't understand at all...

 

[Parasondox]

You know the more I see the more it worries me how society is progressing in terms of understanding gender as an identity, instead of misusing gender in place of sex. I think that the worst part is how many people are ignorant of gender diversity, and how many doggedly stick to that ignorance out of spite, especially where transgendered people are concerned. Then people insist they understand transgenderism, then say say something about beliefs and totally invalidate themselves by proving they don't understand at all...

It's also why we can't have nice things anymore because everyone fights about it. All I can suggest for now is to take a break from the internet once in a while because it will leave you feeling more down and screaming at those who are being a dick for the sake of, "I'M BETTER THAN YOU AND HERE IS WHY". Not worth the headache.

 

[chikusho]

I never claimed I had some magical ability to tell what junk they're carrying. But if I know you, and I know you're carrying a wedding tackle between your legs. You're a man, no matter how much you want to identify as something else.

I hope you understand that it's the exact same processes that make you self-identify with your sex and/or gender that makes trans people self-identify with the opposite sex and/or gender. You just have the privilege of holding a commonly accepted self-perception that will not be questioned at every turn.
And even though it would take literally no effort for you to accept or respect another persons self-perception, you actually make a point out of denying it. I don't know if this kind of behavior is caused by a lack of understanding, a lack of empathy or a need to point out people as an "other" to reinforce the persons own normality. And frankly, I don't really know which is worse.

If I went around all day in Jedi robes, spoke like Yoda and swung around a fake lightsaber and said I identify as a Jedi. That doesn't make me a Jedi.

But if a friend of yours changed his or her name, would you continue to refer to them by the old name simply out of spite?

 

[TwistednMean]

Gender is defined by biological sex. If it wasn't than transgender people wouldn't be a thing. They simply wouldn't care about their genetalia at all.

So, I reckon, feeling like a man in a woman's body or vice versa is reasonable, albeit being an exceedingly rare condition. But self-identifying as third gender or attack helicopter doesn't make other genders exist other than in this one's own head.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Gender is defined by biological sex. If it wasn't than transgender people wouldn't be a thing. They simply wouldn't care about their genetalia at all.

So, I reckon, feeling like a man in a woman's body or vice versa is reasonable, albeit being an exceedingly rare condition. But self-identifying as third gender or attack helicopter doesn't make other genders exist other than in this one's own head.

You do understand that binary gender identity is a western thing, and gender roles are really a western world thing. Many cultures have varied different gender types 3, 4, 5 and more for some. Anthropologically speaking gender roles exist as social imperatives for the structure and support of human clans/tribes/whatever other primitive society. Also how well one identifies with either gender, how they preset in gendered ways, and even what gender roles they fill vary even amongst cisgender people. That makes gender an array of behaviours and a scale of individual identity. The simple short version is that gender and how we conform to it is defined within ourselves in relation to our society. It's a part of how we identify, not what we physically are.

Also because apparently nobody can read: Biological sex and gender are not the same thing.

 

[DrownedAmmet]

Gender is defined by biological sex. If it wasn't than transgender people wouldn't be a thing. They simply wouldn't care about their genetalia at all.

So, I reckon, feeling like a man in a woman's body or vice versa is reasonable, albeit being an exceedingly rare condition. But self-identifying as third gender or attack helicopter doesn't make other genders exist other than in this one's own head.

So you think saying "I don't really feel like a man or a woman, I am a different gender."
Is the same as saying "I am a helicopter! WHIIIIIIIRRRRRRRR PEW PEW PEW!! BLAM, BLAM, BLAM, KAPOW!!!"

 

[The_Darkness]

Okay.

Say that someone you know approaches you and informs you that they have a preferred pronoun. Maybe they prefer to be called 'she' when you'd have thought of them as a 'he'. Or maybe you see them as 'she' when they actually identify as 'they'. Or whichever variation - zhe and shi are also sometimes used, as are other examples.

The point is: This person has told you which pronoun they prefer.

Isn't it just... nicer to respect those wishes? What does it cost you? It clearly means something to them if they felt the need to ask you. Why does it mean more to you to not do so?

I'm not transgender. I don't fully understand what they have to go through. But the world becomes a brighter place if we're generally nicer and more accepting towards one-and-other, and I see no reason not to be in this context.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Okay.

Say that someone you know approaches you and informs you that they have a preferred pronoun. Maybe they prefer to be called 'she' when you'd have thought of them as a 'he'. Or maybe you see them as 'she' when they actually identify as 'they'. Or whichever variation - zhe and shi are also sometimes used, as are other examples.

The point is: This person has told you which pronoun they prefer.

Isn't it just... nicer to respect those wishes? What does it cost you? It clearly means something to them if they felt the need to ask you. Why does it mean more to you to not do so?

I'm not transgender. I don't fully understand what they have to go through. But the world becomes a brighter place if we're generally nicer and more accepting towards one-and-other, and I see no reason not to be in this context.

I see where you're coming from, but I'd rather not reinforce their sense of self-entitlement. And besides, don't you usually use third person pronouns when the person in question is not present, or at least in instant hearing vicinity? In that case, what harm has been done if they haven't heard you referring to them with an undesired pronoun? Failing that, you could just refer to them by their name, or use "they". I don't like the idea of having to put people up on special pedestals and having to specifically refer to them by their desired pronoun just because they ask me to. I'm not trans, nor do I know one, but observing it from just a person perspective, that kind of request makes the asker seem insecure IMO.

Not that the matter bothers me for shit, I live in a country in whose language pronouns are always gender neutral.

OT: I'm of the camp that thinks there are only 2 genders (or sex for you language police officers), 2.5 if you want to include transgendered people. No matter what, there can, and always will be, only two kinds of things you can find in between a person's legs. Sometimes you can find both. Sometimes someone has switched from one side to the other. The day we find a wriggling mass of tentacles between a newborn's legs I'm willing to reevaluate my stance. Provided I can get past the celebrating Japanese people, if you know what I mean.

 

[TwistednMean]

Gender is defined by biological sex. If it wasn't than transgender people wouldn't be a thing. They simply wouldn't care about their genetalia at all.

So, I reckon, feeling like a man in a woman's body or vice versa is reasonable, albeit being an exceedingly rare condition. But self-identifying as third gender or attack helicopter doesn't make other genders exist other than in this one's own head.

You do understand that binary gender identity is a western thing, and gender roles are really a western world thing. Many cultures have varied different gender types 3, 4, 5 and more for some. Anthropologically speaking gender roles exist as social imperatives for the structure and support of human clans/tribes/whatever other primitive society.

Citation needed

Seriously, you cannot just claim such ridiculous things and give no source. I have studies plenty of ancient cultures and I have never heard of anything like that.

So, I reckon, feeling like a man in a woman's body or vice versa is reasonable, albeit being an exceedingly rare condition. But self-identifying as third gender or attack helicopter doesn't make other genders exist other than in this one's own head.

So you think saying "I don't really feel like a man or a woman, I am a different gender."
Is the same as saying "I am a helicopter! WHIIIIIIIRRRRRRRR PEW PEW PEW!! BLAM, BLAM, BLAM, KAPOW!!!"

You are correct, my good man. Or woman. Or other-gendered human being. Or attack helicopter.

 

[AT God]

I understand the OP's point, however I think gender is the wrong term, I sort of support the idea that there are only two sexes, male or female, since sex is purely physical. Although that technically isn't true because there are numerous birth defects and other conditions that lock people out of either sex and therefore their gender is used as a more defining term.

I get that people feel there should be only two sexes, every animal (that I know of, probably a few exceptions) on earth has only two sexes and it feels like humans having more than two is much more of humans wanting to be special than anything else. However, gender is the wrong term, there can be many more than two genders, one could argue there are infinite since only the individual knows their own gender. I do feel that sex should remain binary for the sake of scientific research. Social science already has enough issues equally representing two sexes in research, adding in more would make a lot of important studies impossible. I don't even think there is a standardized way of categorizing transgendered people in studies at the moment.

 

[DrOswald]

In terms of sexual reproduction on the genetic level, there are two sexes.

In terms of everything else, the very idea of numbering the genders is ridiculous. It is like trying to enumerate every color. Gender is a continuum, not a set of distinct entities. What is more, gender is a continuum on multiple axis (physical, mental, societal, etc) which complicates the issue to an incredible degree.

Now, that does not mean there is no point in discussing the differences between certain points on that continuum, and there is certainly value in naming and recognizing significant points on the continuum, but we need to get rid of the idea that people will neatly fall into categories like "man" and "woman". And the idea that those are the only two possibilities is even more ridiculous, even from a biological perspective.

BUT WAIT

You were born a man, but you feel like a woman.
What does that make you then?

Well if you have a sexchange.
That makes you a woman.

Actually they are still a man. They just have had surgery to look like a woman. But they are still a man.

Why? I mean, what we are talking about here is what makes a man a man. What are your criteria?

What if a man could have perfect male to female surgery, including changes on a genetic level, to become female. Would they still be a man who just changed to look like a man?

 

[Thaluikhain]

Gender is defined by biological sex. If it wasn't than transgender people wouldn't be a thing. They simply wouldn't care about their genetalia at all.

So, I reckon, feeling like a man in a woman's body or vice versa is reasonable, albeit being an exceedingly rare condition. But self-identifying as third gender or attack helicopter doesn't make other genders exist other than in this one's own head.

You do understand that binary gender identity is a western thing, and gender roles are really a western world thing. Many cultures have varied different gender types 3, 4, 5 and more for some. Anthropologically speaking gender roles exist as social imperatives for the structure and support of human clans/tribes/whatever other primitive society.

Citation needed

Seriously, you cannot just claim such ridiculous things and give no source. I have studies plenty of ancient cultures and I have never heard of anything like that.

What, really? The existence of more than 2 genders outside the West is fairly well known.

Hell, Lil devils X pointed this out and gave sources for this in the 17th post in this very thread.

 

[inmunitas]

I disagree, there are no genders. There are two sexes, those really exist. Gender is just a mental abstraction based on observing similar behaviors, it has not real substance or existence. Gender and sex have no real relation, so declaring yourself to be of a certain gender doesn't mean you get to be a different sex. I.E. declaring yourself to be a female(gender) doesn't mean you get to be a woman(sex).

I would agree. The Humans are split into two sexes that naturally fulfilled complementary roles with each other, whether that continues to be the case in the future has yet to be seen.

 

[Denamic]

Biologically, there are two genders. Then I'm sure there's plenty of other genders you could identify as if it so pleases you. Either way, as long as you're not the type of asshat that gets offended because I didn't refer to you as 'zhi' instead of 'he', I don't care.

 

[CrystalShadow]

There certainly aren't '64' genders. That's picking numbers out of thin air on some thin arbitrary justifications.

OK, first we have to address the whole sex/gender thing.

What I mean to say is there aren't 64 sexes.

There aren't two either. The most accurate description would be there are approximately two sexes.

That sounds like splitting hairs, but it's not, it's just a reflection of the true nature of biological reality, rather than the simplified approximation we like to work with most of the time.

No given person matches the ideal of a particular sex. Rather, they match it within a certain degree of tolerance.
Some people, a handful, are ambiguous and cannot meaningfully ascribed a sex, because any category you choose is going to be wrong.

But what does it mean anyway? People these days like to think there's a nice, clear, concrete definition of what makes you a particular biological sex, but there simply isn't.
And even if there was, it's not likely to be one anyone actually uses in practice.

It especially isn't genetics.

You know what it is? It's the penis.

That's all. It's how it's been defined for so long, we take it for granted. And yes, we know new things, such as genetics.
But we aren't exactly performing genetic tests when we write 'M' or 'F' on a birth certificate...
No, we are just going on the medical opinion of a doctor or maybe a midwife, or someone, who will take a quick look at what an infant has between it's legs, and dictate a huge number of things about it's future based on a simple observation.

Simply put, if there's something there that looks like a penis, it's male. Otherwise, it's female.
Even if there's ambiguity, or extra stuff going on, it is still principally decided by the presence and approximate size of a penis-like appendage...
Any other aspect of biology or reproductive capability or stuff like that rarely gets a lookin.
I already laugh at people that argue from genetics just on principle, but this reality really rubs it in.

Still, the unfortunate implication of the logic behind this is that we classify people as male/not-male.
And, that the sole classification of being male, is having a penis, and female actually is mostly just relegated to the label for 'other'.

And indeed, though people are rarely quite that simple-minded, think about how many subtle hints most cultures seem to posses that reinforce the idea that if you lose your penis you aren't a man anymore, regardless of anything else.
Although, this seems to get tossed out pretty quickly if you bring in the idea of someone trying to get rid of it deliberately in order to be regarded as female, but then it really isn't quite that simple of course...
And, even regarding the idea of losing your penis making you stop being male, it doesn't quite reach to the levels of what the male/female classification then would imply. Though it is the underlying logical basis for how we classify male and female, we haven't quite decided to truly treat female as 'other' in the way the means of classification imply.
Which makes sense too, because edge cases aside, there's no reason to consider that a category that excludes males would contain anything other than people who have the identifiable biological features we associate with females.

The rarity of the edge cases means it ordinarily doesn't matter that the practical tool used to decide what someone is does in fact classify people as 'male' or 'not-male', rather than actually bothering to actively try and identify 'female' as well as looking for the one thing considered to define being 'male'...

Still, it's awkward to consider what the actual implications of how we typically decide this actually are.


As for gender, well, assuming we take the definition of it being a social construct (some people try and argue against that definition of the word for some reason), it becomes even more meaningless to ascribe a specific number to it.
Since it contains so many completely arbitrary elements, you could argue there are 2, 3, 64, 500, 5 million, or whatever different genders, and be able to make a viable, fairly reasonable case for it being true.
But just as most of the elements defining these genders would be entirely arbitrary, it follows that so would the exact number anyone might claim to exist.
It's just, kind of meaningless arguing about how many genders there are, because there's not really anything that is objectively meaningful that you can say to prove any given number correct.

 

[Durendal5150]

I see where you're coming from, but I'd rather not reinforce their sense of self-entitlement. And besides, don't you usually use third person pronouns when the person in question is not present, or at least in instant hearing vicinity? In that case, what harm has been done if they haven't heard you referring to them with an undesired pronoun? Failing that, you could just refer to them by their name, or use "they". I don't like the idea of having to put people up on special pedestals and having to specifically refer to them by their desired pronoun just because they ask me to. I'm not trans, nor do I know one, but observing it from just a person perspective, that kind of request makes the asker seem insecure IMO.

I get where you're coming from about not having to do something just because your asked but, if someone politely asks you to do something to make them feel a little better, what is the point in not doing it? Unless it's like, stomping kittens for their amusement? I have my own issues with pronoun politics, but if a friend asks me tor refer to them as X, (and people I know do prefer singular they) then I'll do that for my friend. Or anyone else, it's just being polite. If a theist says "god bless you," I say "thank you." I don't believe in it, it's not my bag, but I'm not going to be an asshat about it. Same deal.

As for making the asker seem insecure...well they probably are. Western society is geared towards making people insecure about this very topic. Possibly due to the alienation and death threats. As far as I'm concerned, gender and sexuality are non-issues. They have so little bearing on a persons identity that I could care absolutely less. But so long as a segment of society is going to latch onto that small facet of someone's identity and attack them for it, well, we have a goddam problem don't we?

Not that the matter bothers me for shit, I live in a country in whose language pronouns are always gender neutral.

I honestly see this as the best solution to the problem. I am wholeheartedly opposed to the movement that wants to create a million new terms for everything for people to identify with. I understand why they want to do it, but I generally disagree that labels help a anyone in the long run

OT: I'm of the camp that thinks there are only 2 genders (or sex for you language police officers), 2.5 if you want to include transgendered people. No matter what, there can, and always will be, only two kinds of things you can find in between a person's legs. Sometimes you can find both. Sometimes someone has switched from one side to the other. The day we find a wriggling mass of tentacles between a newborn's legs I'm willing to reevaluate my stance. Provided I can get past the celebrating Japanese people, if you know what I mean.

Well, it's not a matter of language policing if you're literally using the language wrong. Yes, there are only two human sexes, and combinations and absences of those two. Gender though is complicated because it's essentially a spectrum, and I think this is where a lot of the problems come in. The way I see it if it helps, isn't that there are two, or three, or eight or sixty-four genders. There's either one or zero. We accept that it's a social construct, or there's just one: Human. If it helps people reference the expression of their humanity by saying they feel more like one biological sex or the other. (and as RCS619 above pointed out, this is rarely a personal choice, but a matter of brain chemistry,) then fine and good for them.

What I think we're all really hung up on is the language, and understandably. Words carry a lot of baggage, but it's important to recall that language serves the speakers, not the other way around. If we've got to change some definitions well, this shouldn't be a huge problem.

I remain personally opposed to doing so too much, or coming up with lots of new terms for all of this stuff, just because to label a thing is to automatically other it, and as a general humanist, that makes me uneasy.



This has been a long and rambling post because it is difficult to get my thoughts in order. Apologies if it's not coherent.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Gender is defined by biological sex. If it wasn't than transgender people wouldn't be a thing. They simply wouldn't care about their genetalia at all.

So, I reckon, feeling like a man in a woman's body or vice versa is reasonable, albeit being an exceedingly rare condition. But self-identifying as third gender or attack helicopter doesn't make other genders exist other than in this one's own head.

You do understand that binary gender identity is a western thing, and gender roles are really a western world thing. Many cultures have varied different gender types 3, 4, 5 and more for some. Anthropologically speaking gender roles exist as social imperatives for the structure and support of human clans/tribes/whatever other primitive society.

Citation needed

Seriously, you cannot just claim such ridiculous things and give no source. I have studies plenty of ancient cultures and I have never heard of anything like that.

God there are too many sources to list.
But here is a basic one to start with:http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/two-spirits/map.html

That was linked in this very thread already by the way. There are tons of books and studies that contain scientific proof of your standpoint being the ridiculous one.

So, I reckon, feeling like a man in a woman's body or vice versa is reasonable, albeit being an exceedingly rare condition. But self-identifying as third gender or attack helicopter doesn't make other genders exist other than in this one's own head.

So you think saying "I don't really feel like a man or a woman, I am a different gender."
Is the same as saying "I am a helicopter! WHIIIIIIIRRRRRRRR PEW PEW PEW!! BLAM, BLAM, BLAM, KAPOW!!!"

You are correct, my good man. Or woman. Or other-gendered human being. Or attack helicopter.

That's a bit of a stretch because genderfluid, genderqueer, agender, third gender, bi-gender, and more do exist and are recognized. It falls under the catagory of transgender topics, so looking here is a good place to start. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender]

There now you have some citations, and if you want more search for them they're not hard to find.

 

[AgedGrunt]

Yes, from what I understand, on a genetic chromosome level, there are two sexes. And I think the occasional genetic in-between, but overall there are two sexes.

Gender is different though. That's masculine/feminine rather than male/female.

If we distinguish gender from sex, I think the term gender was changed to replace what are known as traits.

Masculinity and femininity = hobbies, emotions, clothing, hair styles, high voices, etc. If "gender" isn't being used to reference biology, then it's referencing the image a person projects, in the context of what society says maleness and femaleness looks like.

Technically, society can change its perceptions (and it has before) and move the spectrum. The wristwatch originally looked a lot like women's jewelry and men didn't go for it. Pink wasn't always the symbol of womanhood. Long ago, guys wore high heels for horseback riding.

So when people want a liberal interpretation of gender and go into these crises of identity, I think a lot of that is more that some people reject being told what their image should be based on society's standards. That's sensible to me. Changing sex, choosing to live as the sex you are not, is completely different.

 

[TwistednMean]

You do understand that binary gender identity is a western thing, and gender roles are really a western world thing. Many cultures have varied different gender types 3, 4, 5 and more for some. Anthropologically speaking gender roles exist as social imperatives for the structure and support of human clans/tribes/whatever other primitive society.

Citation needed

Seriously, you cannot just claim such ridiculous things and give no source. I have studies plenty of ancient cultures and I have never heard of anything like that.

God there are too many sources to list.
But here is a basic one to start with:http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/two-spirits/map.html

That was linked in this very thread already by the way. There are tons of books and studies that contain scientific proof of your standpoint being the ridiculous one.

Really? Religious sects that practice castration and mastectomy, all-female regiments (I would love to see those in a fight, by the way) and a tradition for raising boys as girls are your third-gender examples?

There is no third gender mentioned there anywhere. It's always male or female or none at all, achieved through mutilation. This stuff is certifiably insane. Except for dressing boys as girls, that has been an approved pastime for millennia, but it does not mean that they become a third gender.

But self-identifying as third gender or attack helicopter doesn't make other genders exist other than in this one's own head.

So you think saying "I don't really feel like a man or a woman, I am a different gender."
Is the same as saying "I am a helicopter! WHIIIIIIIRRRRRRRR PEW PEW PEW!! BLAM, BLAM, BLAM, KAPOW!!!"

You are correct, my good man. Or woman. Or other-gendered human being. Or attack helicopter.

That's a bit of a stretch because genderfluid, genderqueer, agender, third gender, bi-gender, and more do exist and are recognized. It falls under the catagory of transgender topics, so looking here is a good place to start. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender]

There now you have some citations, and if you want more search for them they're not hard to find.

Let me be clear. I have yet to encounter any reliable sources or scientific explanatiom for all those gender variations. And until I do I respectfully decline the invitation to join your hallucination. You, of course, are free to identify yourself and other people what you feel like, but I am not going to aknowledge people's fancies to be facts.