Poll: There are only 2 genders....right?

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Silentpony_v1legacy

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Jun 5, 2013
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Parasondox said:
What's an "Otherkin"? I keep seeing that a lot when people identify themselves as that but what is it?
Otherkin are people who believe they have the soul of an animal, either real or mythical, instead of a human soul.
Sometimes you get human/animal soul hybrids, but generally they're people who think they're...Dragons, or ponies but in human form.
Literally

Reading their blogs they talk about transforming into animals, or 'morphing' or whatever.

I honestly don't know if its just attention seeking or signs of neurological disorders, but its provably wrong, especially with the mythical unicorns, dragons or whatever.
 

Drathnoxis

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Skatologist said:
Drathnoxis said:
64?! Does anybody have a source for that? Heck, can anybody list even half of those?

Stretching it, the most I can come up with is 8:
-Male
-Female
-Male identify as female
-Female identify as male
-Male identify as none
-Female identify as none
-Male identify as both
-Female identify as both

Or am I missing a layer of complexity here? Is there such a thing as a male who identifies as a female that identifies as a male?
There was a FaceBook update about a year ago that allowed for quite a lot of choices with 56 options, but I'm not sure where this 64 was coming from. To be fair, there was only really a few options considering many you'd be able to fit in many different categories. I technically fit 5 categories.

Oh, and disagree.
Huh, I can't even imagine what some of those options are supposed to indicate. Two-spirit?

Oh well. Yeah, most of those options seem to be redundant, so it would really be stretching it to the limit to say there are anything close to 56 genders.

And maybe I'm missing something, but plain old 'male' and 'female' without any prefixes or suffixes seem to be conspicuously absent from that list.
 

rcs619

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Silentpony said:
Parasondox said:
What's an "Otherkin"? I keep seeing that a lot when people identify themselves as that but what is it?
Otherkin are people who believe they have the soul of an animal, either real or mythical, instead of a human soul.
Sometimes you get human/animal soul hybrids, but generally they're people who think they're...Dragons, or ponies but in human form.
Literally

Reading their blogs they talk about transforming into animals, or 'morphing' or whatever.

I honestly don't know if its just attention seeking or signs of neurological disorders, but its provably wrong, especially with the mythical unicorns, dragons or whatever.
Okay, dumb magical soul-unicorn stuff aside... Being able to turn into animals would actually be pretty badass, just saying :p

I may or may not be biased on the subject because I read the hell out of the Animorphs series as a kid.
 

Parasondox

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Silentpony said:
Parasondox said:
What's an "Otherkin"? I keep seeing that a lot when people identify themselves as that but what is it?
Otherkin are people who believe they have the soul of an animal, either real or mythical, instead of a human soul.
Sometimes you get human/animal soul hybrids, but generally they're people who think they're...Dragons, or ponies but in human form.
Literally

Reading their blogs they talk about transforming into animals, or 'morphing' or whatever.

I honestly don't know if its just attention seeking or signs of neurological disorders, but its provably wrong, especially with the mythical unicorns, dragons or whatever.
Wait, what? Seriously? I'm all for ones freedom but isn't that just pushing it a bit? How common is this thought?
 

Hagi

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I'd say two.

Not as in two absolutes, but even looking at that Facebook list there's a complete absence of a true third.

Everything is either male with some prefix, female with some prefix, neither with some prefix, both with some prefix or in-between with some prefix.
 

Thaluikhain

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Parasondox said:
Silentpony said:
Parasondox said:
What's an "Otherkin"? I keep seeing that a lot when people identify themselves as that but what is it?
Otherkin are people who believe they have the soul of an animal, either real or mythical, instead of a human soul.
Sometimes you get human/animal soul hybrids, but generally they're people who think they're...Dragons, or ponies but in human form.
Literally

Reading their blogs they talk about transforming into animals, or 'morphing' or whatever.

I honestly don't know if its just attention seeking or signs of neurological disorders, but its provably wrong, especially with the mythical unicorns, dragons or whatever.
Wait, what? Seriously? I'm all for ones freedom but isn't that just pushing it a bit? How common is this thought?
Common amongst threads like these, and in stereotypes people make about furries. Otherwise, not so much.

If ever one single human learns how to shapeshift, OTOH, this will become a hell of an issue.

And...if an Otherkin claims it as a religious belief, I'm not sure if it's more strange than accepted religions.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Parasondox said:
Wait, what? Seriously? I'm all for ones freedom but isn't that just pushing it a bit? How common is this thought?

Couldn't say. I've never met one in my 25 years on this planet. But there are very popular sites dedicated to their beliefs and practices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otherkin

This should help, but its honestly just creepy stuff.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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LeathermanKick25 said:
As others have said. What you have between your legs is what I will refer to you as. This whole "I identify as this therefore you must refer to me as this" is complete bollocks. You want to dress like a woman, act like a woman and do your damnedest to be a woman? Go for gold, but you're not a woman. Nor will I refer to you as one.

If I went around all day in Jedi robes, spoke like Yoda and swung around a fake lightsaber and said I identify as a Jedi. That doesn't make me a Jedi.
Yes because you have the magical ability to know what someone has between their legs, or if they've had bottom surgery, what they had. The complete bollocks part is using your own personal prejudice to judge someone, plus if you had a trans friend, and referred to them as their birth sex that would be outing them. Which again I'm going to remind you how dangerous that is, because trans people get murdered for being them selves more than almost any group. Besides that it's purely disrespectful to the point to being harmful to the trans person in question. One of the few times I ever agreed with MovieBob is when he talked about a lot of political correctness as "just being nice." So please understand that what you're doing is not only judgemental and arrogant on your part, it's also actively harmful, and potentially extremely dangerous.

Your point in the last part is a totally flawed argument, because Jedi are totally fictitious entities, and people who identify as one intrinsically might have a serious mental illness. Either way you don't have to go around calling them "master Jedi" so all my previous points still stand.

Captcha: roll again
Damnit captcha, if only I could.
 

EternallyBored

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Jun 17, 2013
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Silentpony said:
Parasondox said:
Wait, what? Seriously? I'm all for ones freedom but isn't that just pushing it a bit? How common is this thought?

Couldn't say. I've never met one in my 25 years on this planet. But there are very popular sites dedicated to their beliefs and practices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otherkin

This should help, but its honestly just creepy stuff.
Those sites in the wikipedia article weren't "dedicated" to otherkin, I remember some of those newsgroups when I was tooling around the internet in the 90's, at best they barely tolerated the few otherkin posters, otherkin were always a tiny part of those groups and nobody else took them seriously, they were treated like LARPers that took their roleplaying too far.

Even at its height, things like their mailing lists and early forums never reached more than a couple hundred members, and over half of those were trolls from Something Awful and Portal of Evil. The internet has blown the prevalence of actual otherkin way out of proportion, the number of people that believe the moon landing was faked outnumber otherkin by several orders of magnitude.

Otherkin are a niche of a niche, given way too much attention by the internet because their beliefs were easy to mock and present in a nonsympathetic fashion despite the fact that a lot of their prominent members were seriously mentally ill; as in receiving full government disability and unable to cope with leaving their house for any period of time, much like the schizophrenic person with delusions about being Jesus in a past life, except they've latched on to modern fantasy and mythology instead of historical figures.

They are easy to mock, but there is a good chance you are picking on a seriously mentally ill person when you do so.
 

Abomination

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There are two genders just like there are two settings for temperature: hot and cold.

And all the degrees in between. While a gender is not binary as such it is stuck on a line scale. At one end is absolute male and the other is absolute female and varying amounts/allocations inside those limits.

Anything that is supposedly operating outside of this is a neurological disorder or some pretentious twat starved for attention.
 

Notshauna

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Abomination said:
There are two genders just like there are two settings for temperature: hot and cold.

And all the degrees in between. While a gender is not binary as such it is stuck on a line scale. At one end is absolute male and the other is absolute female and varying amounts/allocations inside those limits.

Anything that is supposedly operating outside of this is a neurological disorder or some pretentious twat starved for attention.
It's absurd frankly, the fact that people say I'm something between the (arbitrary) poles of Male and Female is direct proof there are more than two genders.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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LeathermanKick25 said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
LeathermanKick25 said:
Snip
I never claimed I had some magical ability to tell what junk they're carrying. But if I know you, and I know you're carrying a wedding tackle between your legs. You're a man, no matter how much you want to identify as something else.

We've been over this before. The world's a dangerous place for everyone. Trans people more so? Perhaps. But I'm still not going to cater to there every single need for them because they cry victim (which you sure as hell love do to. Whenever a trans joke is mentioned you pull the "but trans get murdered every day" card). Learn to defend yourself. Learn to stick up for what you believe in. Not everyone's going to agree with you, as I and many others have proven. If I'm being genuinely harmful for referring to a trans friend as a he instead of a she. That person has one fragile as fuck mind and I have no tolerance or patience for such weakness.

You're not the only people in the world that get beaten, raped and murdered. It's not exclusive to your group. Trans people want to stop being victims? Then learn to stick up and defend yourself. That's what the rest of the world has to do. Is it shitty it happens to you because of who you want to be? Yes. Same reason it's shitty for people who are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Doesn't mean you have to sit there and take it.
The reason we play the "victim card" is because when trans people get beaten, raped, and murdered we almost never get justice. "Learn to defend your self," is something a lot of trans people do actually do, and usually because we need to more than other groups. But people who assault trans people, rape them, murder them, in a lot of places just finding out the victim was trans is enough to get the perpetrators off the hook. Does that seem at all reasonable to you? Also it's like the old "queer beating" thing still for us, even when we can defend ourselves we often get ganged up on. I'm not physically strong enough, or fast enough to deal with multiple attackers hand to hand, but at least I live in the USA and in a "no bar to carry" and "open carry" state. So that at least gives me one self defence option that trumps most others, and it's an option a lot of trans people simply don't have.

The learn to stick up for what you believe in part can be moot, because the people who target us are often bullies, and standing our ground on beliefs makes them even more adamant on mistreating us. Either way yes it sucks that everyone has a chance to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but that doesn't mean you have it just as bad. Hell a lot of places get away with openly discrimination against trans people, even though it is against federal law. People can use finding out someone is trans as a legal defence when they commit a violent crime against a trans person. That goes beyond the "wrong place wrong time" and "things everyone has to deal with line" to the point where being trans means we get no justice either. Are you starting to see why we are such a sensitive group, why our problems are magnified to absurd points? Hell if I did have defend myself the person I defended against could press counter charges against me and have a better chance of putting me in jail. That's despite them being the ones who broke the law, no matter the evidence, and despite me being innocent and justified. This isn't a hypothetical either, it actually happens.

LeathermanKick25 said:
Not everyone's going to agree with you, as I and many others have proven. If I'm being genuinely harmful for referring to a trans friend as a he instead of a she. That person has one fragile as fuck mind and I have no tolerance or patience for such weakness.
This line is particular bullshit. You don't have to agree with me. That still doesn't excuse behaviour that is patently you being rude, insensitive, jerk to someone. Really to me it smacks of a lack of empathy that is disturbing on a very deep level, not to mention a symptom of the reasons why trans people are mistreated so badly. No matter what you say it's actively going out of one's way to alienate someone else, standing on a principle is no excuse for being that much of a jerk to someone else for being different, period.
 

Notshauna

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LeathermanKick25 said:
So basically you're willingly being a dick. By that logic I could, rightfully so, refer to you as a dick in every regard and you'd have absolutely no problems with it. And no you don't deliberately misgender transpeople because it more "scientifically accurate" because it's not (seriously read a goddamned book on the subject written in the past 20 years), and it's not for a lack of caring because if you had no strong feelings either way on the subject matter you'd just gender us how we want to be gendered. It's simple you're hiding behind elementary pseudo-science and faked apathy to hide the fact that you're no better than the people who burnt "witches". You're dumb and afraid not of transpeople but of anything that challenges you're established world view.
 

TallanKhan

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OK lets refer to the World Health Organisation to define sex and gender for us:

""Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women."

""Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women."


- http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/

On that basis, if you accept gender as a social construct then it could be argued that there can be as many genders as people want there to be.
 

Tiger King

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Azure23 said:
The ethnocentrism in this thread is staggering. Did some of these people simply never take anthropology classes? In the western world we have an annoying tendency to conflate gender and sex and come up with all sorts of flimsy justifications why we think that way, when in reality gender has far more to do with cultural and anthropological influences than just biological sex. Many cultures in the world have more than two gender identities. The anthropologists, sociologists, sexologists, and psychiatrists of our time recognize that gender is a spectrum, it's pretty damn arrogant (not to mention obtuse) to simply define gender on the basis of biology. And even then, intersex individuals exist, there are many different chromosome alignments (some of them not exactly functional but still, it's biology.)
Well actually no :/
anthropology isn't really something that employers look for in a skill set so that one was given a miss.
 

Trippy Turtle

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May 10, 2010
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Two genders.
People have been saying lately that gender is not physical, rather our own mental interpretation of our sex or something. I think if they believe this they should just create a new term that isn't already publicly accepted to mean something else to reduce confusion.
People can feel how they want to feel. I don't care if they believe that they are 9 different genders and live on 27 different planes of existence on a physical spectrum that breaches the time-space-music continuum. That's up to them. With that said, they can't make others accept that they are a gender fluid trisexual or something when they clearly were born with, and still have a dick. They might be a very feminine dude, but by my reckoning, they are still a dude. Wanting to be something and physically being something are two different things. No amount of research or positive reinforcement is going to change that.



Seems pretty hypocritical to be preaching how gender is all about personal views and stuff, then turn around and say "Your personal view is wrong" anyway.
 

Notshauna

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LeathermanKick25 said:
Notshauna said:
LeathermanKick25 said:
So basically you're willingly being a dick. By that logic I could, rightfully so, refer to you as a dick in every regard and you'd have absolutely no problems with it. And no you don't deliberately misgender transpeople because it more "scientifically accurate" because it's not (seriously read a goddamned book on the subject written in the past 20 years), and it's not for a lack of caring because if you had no strong feelings either way on the subject matter you'd just gender us how we want to be gendered. It's simple you're hiding behind elementary pseudo-science and faked apathy to hide the fact that you're no better than the people who burnt "witches". You're dumb and afraid not of transpeople but of anything that challenges you're established world view.
You can refer to me as a dick all you want. I don't care. I've been called far worse by people who I actually respect and I didn't care.

Is it not biologically accurate to call someone with a penis a man and someone with a vagina a woman? I know there are cases where a biological woman was born with female breasts and a penis, then you've got the whole hermaphrodite side. But they're so rare it's no point trying to argue the specifics.

No better than the people who tried to burn witches? That's a hell of a leap, but a funny one regardless.
I don't expect me calling you a dick would annoy you, nor would you calling me a man or he etc would. Neither of us really cares what the other thinks of them. But the example was that it's willingly using a term to try and offend someone under the bullshit guise of "correctness".

It isn't "biologically accurate" because pronouns refer to gender. Calling a transperson the wrong gender is just wrong, it's not a matter of opinion, gender is mental sex is physical. And even if you take the (incorrect) opinion that pronouns are based of sex, how do you refer to intersex people, transpeople post-SRS, XX males and XY females, and numerous other chromosomal abnormalities? Are you going to ignore them and offer an inconsistent and confusing system? Or are you going to make a messy system that actually applies to people and not your mental image of them. (plus using the term hermaphrodite when trying to agree a scientific based opinion is pretty funny)

And while the example is super dramatic, it's the same reasoning as burning witches. It's lack of understanding, dogmatic acceptance of falsehoods and fear of the unknown.

Trippy Turtle said:
Seems pretty hypocritical to be preaching how gender is all about personal views and stuff, then turn around and say "Your personal view is wrong" anyway
There is a difference between me saying I'm this and you saying no I'm not. That not hypocrisy, that's recognizing the difference between having an opinion based of stimuli and facts and having one off ignorance.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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LeathermanKick25 said:
Not physically strong or fast enough? Then become faster, become stronger. I never had much intention of going to a gym growing up. I still had to in order to survive. I never said it was fair or reasonable. If you play the victim card, you'll be treated like a victim. Simple as that. And nothings going to get done in that way. On this very site people have said how at this point a lot of people simply don't give a shit because trans cry victim without doing anything about it, and just take to flinging shit at others because "I'm trans I'm a victim". Not to mention how any slight jab you find remotely offensive you take it as a personal insult and again bring up "but we're getting murdered every day". How do you think things are going to change when you're alienating yourself like that? Because that's exactly what you're doing.

I don't need an excuse to be insensitive or whatever other insults you want to throw my way. I don't care what you think of me. I don't care about you or your troubles either, hell I don't even have to respect you or your wishes or any of that. You and your people are not the only ones who have had a hard life. You're not the only people who have had to fight to survive, to learn to defend yourself from a young age. You're not the only people who get fucked in the legal system. Shit things happening to good people is a universal thing.

And even still, you're not going to change all of the injustice in the world, whether it's against trans or whoever by crying foul on a forum like this.
Like as PaulH has pointed out, being on HRT and post orchiectomy, or on anti-androgen drugs, makes it difficult to build strength, due in large part to a lack of testosterone(usually significantly less than even women have/produce). Also please try not to apply your standards to everyone else, some of us have other unrelated physical issues that may limit us physically, trans, or not. Sure life isn't fair, but that doesn't mean everyone has to be up to your personal standards on everything, especially because as a military man you have some pretty high standards. I'm not trying to be an asshole here, but I know it's been a bit heated in this debate, for my part I apologize for that, but it does rile me up. Aside from that the "shit flinging" is coming just as hard from the other side just because they have a problem with us having a problem with anything. Like I said trans people tend to be sensitive on these issues and for damn good reasons. Also being victimized is traumatic, you should know this, being victimized on a regular basis for every part of who you are just makes things that much worse. So please try to understand that it's more than "people have to deal with shittyness in life" for trans people, we have to deal with constant shittyness from every side and having to defend ourselves on every god damn little thing. That's part of what being marginalized means.

As for the jabs, and bringing up why we find them especially egregious, it's again part of being marginalized, along with being constantly harassed and targeted. This is doubly true because we didn't ask to be like this, and the mistreatment isn't a side thing, it's systemic. A systemic problem with a marginalized, harassed, and abused group is of course going to make every little thing especially egregious, gays and lesbians didn't start getting more protection by being quiet and sucking it up. Well guess what the trans community isn't going to get anywhere by shutting up and just taking it either, we need to stand up for ourselves and our rights.

Pointing out bad and/or anti-social behaviour isn't an insult, if I say you're being insensitive then I'm pointing out that's the behaviour you're employing. Acting like a jerk doesn't absolutely mean you are a jerk as a person, it just means that's how you're acting. Of course you don't have to be sensitive to my position, respect my wishes, or even tolerate me on a personal level. But doing so actively, then justifying it also isn't going to make you look very good on a social level to anyone.

Learning to defend our selves is a good thing, a helpful thing, but it's not always going to work, especially when we're heavily targeted for abuse. More risk means more chance of failure which can be fatal. Not to mention that defending myself can be used against me to royally screw me over legally. It's almost a lose/lose situation. Sure it happens to a lot of people, but I'm saying that specifically, being trans can actually invalidate my rights. As for people getting screwed by the legal system in general? Yeah that sucks, but most people aren't systematically targeted in the legal system and denied justice either, trans people however are. Shit does happen to good people, yes, but for trans people things tend to be systematically shitty.

Still helping people understand, be more understanding, even if they disagree personally, helps, even if it's on a small scale. You don't win a war by shooting one guy on the other side, it's all the battles and skirmishes, no matter how big, or little, that contribute to the whole. Even if that's as small as just trying to explain how bad things can and tend to be for a group on a forum. I'm just one person I don't expect to fix injustices and problems in the world, or my country, my state, my town, or even individual people. That also doesn't mean that I shouldn't state my opinion, and try to get people to understand either.
 

Notshauna

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LeathermanKick25 said:
Notshauna said:
LeathermanKick25 said:
Notshauna said:
LeathermanKick25 said:
So basically you're willingly being a dick. By that logic I could, rightfully so, refer to you as a dick in every regard and you'd have absolutely no problems with it. And no you don't deliberately misgender transpeople because it more "scientifically accurate" because it's not (seriously read a goddamned book on the subject written in the past 20 years), and it's not for a lack of caring because if you had no strong feelings either way on the subject matter you'd just gender us how we want to be gendered. It's simple you're hiding behind elementary pseudo-science and faked apathy to hide the fact that you're no better than the people who burnt "witches". You're dumb and afraid not of transpeople but of anything that challenges you're established world view.
You can refer to me as a dick all you want. I don't care. I've been called far worse by people who I actually respect and I didn't care.

Is it not biologically accurate to call someone with a penis a man and someone with a vagina a woman? I know there are cases where a biological woman was born with female breasts and a penis, then you've got the whole hermaphrodite side. But they're so rare it's no point trying to argue the specifics.

No better than the people who tried to burn witches? That's a hell of a leap, but a funny one regardless.
I don't expect me calling you a dick would annoy you, nor would you calling me a man or he etc would. Neither of us really cares what the other thinks of them. But the example was that it's willingly using a term to try and offend someone under the bullshit guise of "correctness".

It isn't "biologically accurate" because pronouns refer to gender. Calling a transperson the wrong gender is just wrong, it's not a matter of opinion, gender is mental sex is physical. And even if you take the (incorrect) opinion that pronouns are based of sex, how do you refer to intersex people, transpeople post-SRS, XX males and XY females, and numerous other chromosomal abnormalities? Are you going to ignore them and offer an inconsistent and confusing system? Or are you going to make a messy system that actually applies to people and not your mental image of them. (plus using the term hermaphrodite when trying to agree a scientific based opinion is pretty funny)

And while the example is super dramatic, it's the same reasoning as burning witches. It's lack of understanding, dogmatic acceptance of falsehoods and fear of the unknown.
I'm not trying to offend anyone, and whoever is offended. Well like I've already said, I don't care? People seem to be under the impression that being offended should actually mean something. I don't give the littlest of shits if I offend you by calling you a woman while you identify as a man. I don't care nor do I need too. It being wrong is (funnily enough) your opinion. And once again, I don't care about that either.

What's wrong with filing them under chromosomal abnormalities? What's wrong with saying it's not normal or abnormal? Fuck the negative connotations that come with it. If you're so thin skinned that being called abnormal hurts you, you're gonna have a hell of a time in this world.

And no, it's not even remotely comparable to burning witches. I understand trans people fine and I'm not fearful of them either. I just don't care for all there whiney bullshit about how they want to be referred to as because of some identity crisis they have.
If you didn't care you'd just refer to people by their chosen pronouns. Like you're actively choosing something that causes you more conflict AND makes people unhappy, that's not a lack of care. And pronouns being linked to gender isn't an opinion it's a fact, as in the authority figures on the subject matter sat and decided that it was for pronouns. It's an opinion like the sky is called the sky not Robert, that 1 + 1 = 2 and that water is wet. And again with the faux apathy if you don't care you'd take the path of least resistance.

I literally used the word abnormalities, I'm not pretending that there isn't a normal on an individual criteria. What sex based pronoun do you give these people, because they don't fit in with the sex based pronoun "theory" but do with gender based. Of course you can't because there are exceptions to all these rules, and that's why it HAS to be gender based.

And if you want to claim understanding of a group of people you should probably avoid immediately following it with a sentence that proves you don't.