So you're saying girls should learn to accept the abuse? That's the exact same victim-blaming that led to the Battlefield launch absurdity.Savagezion said:That's probably the biggest part right there is the community. BTW, I checked out that link and I have been reading them for like 2 hours. Some is distasteful, some is easily ignorable due to the lack of intelligence behind it, and some is just crazy funny. I have became good friends with some people online by not being a stuck up prude and just taking the message for what it is, banter. Most of them seem to come from MMOs or FPS games where even guys get sent stuff that call you 'slut', '*****', 'whore', etc.CaptainKarma said:
I am not trying to discredit the outcries of the situation, but I see many of those comments thrown my way as a male. My own friends as well as strangers do it. As a competative gamer, I think it important you have thick skin and a sense of humor or you will be miserable with it. I am not saying it is right, but it is sadly a social custom at this point. I don't do it (except to my close friends) in hopes it will one day die, but I acknowledge it is there. I think everyone should; as late teens - early 20s age group has the largest amount of time and money to commit to games thus will always be prevalent in these kinds of games. And they like them some cuss words and typically see the world as "too conventional" feeling the need to push boundaries. Hormones have a lot to do with that, but there it is.
This will not change anytime soon if at all. You know why? Competitive gaming is most popular with the age group that likes seeing this:
This is human nature on display in all our "not politically correct" nature. Time may not even solve this. We are mad at people just stepping into maturity for not yet being mature and enjoying partaking in offensive material.
Like I said, not trying to take anything away from the discussion, merely attempting to add something I feel should be noted to it.
EDIT: I should probably add some parts of the gaming industry encourage this type of behavior, some don't. It would be nice to see more discourage it but don't expect that to happen from any game trying to market to that age group. (Specifically, competitive gaming)
Poll: Videogames and Women
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How does that make it any better? Objectification is bad, the cause doesn't matter. "apparent sexism" is a meaningless distinction. If something appears sexist, it is sexist. It may not have been intended that way, but it will still present a sexist viewpoint. If the developer didn't WANT it to, they should have tried harder.Spartan1362 said:
I also like that you think game devs aren't sexist. Have you forgotten DeadIsland's FeministWhore perk? This video is a classic, and probably representative of a lot of the industry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb5ev2Dp4I0
Oh common sense, thou hast forsaken me!CaptainKarma said:
Perhaps someone needs reminded that video games, and characters within, ARE OBJECTS.
Jeez, porn has more objectification than video games, and the people are real! So come back, please, when porn is illegal.
...and we all wear grey suits with short haircuts and forget that we are infact animals.
And how dare you generalise that the whole videogames industry is sexist based upon a few incidents, that's just plain madness.
I laughted, then died a little bit inside.CaptainKarma said:
As a female, I think it's just as bad with (the most popular ones anyway) movies. The difference is that main stream games (unlike movies) have catered to 13 year old boys for so long that there is very little diversity outside of indie titles and a few hits here and there.CaptainKarma said:I've been trying to get my sister into videogames lately (need an extra player for my HoN team), but one thing that's putting her off is the utterly reprehensible attitude that games, and gamers, have towards women.
We've all laughed at the Evony ads. But even mainstream games like
treat their female characters like...pieces of meat to be drooled over. Is this really the image we should be presenting to the world? The press is quick to label games as juvenile adolescent male fantasies and our response is to EMBRACE this criticism? What the hell?
And the community is barely any better. Friends of mine regularly keep their identities secret (unless teamspeak is involved) because of the torrent of abuse they get online. Don't believe me? Check out the fabulous http://fatuglyorslutty.com/ to see the vitriol lady gamers get.
This attitude is PERVASIVE. Look at Battlefield 3, banning women from its launch party (rather than telling the men "Dude, don't be a creep"), the creator of a fighting game (forget which, MvC maybe? I've lost the link) discussing, in a panel about female character design, which of his creations he'd like to have sex with.
Games have an image problem. But we don't want to fix it, we're happy in our little corner with our boobalicious characters and internalised misogyny.
We can be so much BETTER than this. How can we expect gaming to be taken seriously as an artform, and as a hobby, when we're happy to let this behaviour run unchecked?
Honestly, the 'sex' appeal will make me a lot less likely to play a game or at least make a female avatar if it's an RPG (I'd rather the camera not be so far up her ass as I talk to NPCs that I can practically see out her mouth). I don't need all the women to be dressed down or not act like sluts, but seriously? Do ALL of them have to look like super models and pose like strippers? Last time I checked, most real people are not hideous troll beasts never to see the light of day. Can't we have just normal looking people fittingly dressed for whatever role they play in the story? Is it REALLY that hard?
So yeah, while it's not any worse than the most popular mainstream movies (Fast and the Furious, Transformers, etc...basically all the shit for the LCD crowd), it's still fucking sad as all hell to see my fellow gamers go on and on about Ivy's tits rather than the actual fighting mechanics of the game.
Do you want to construct an argument or do you just want to laugh it off?Spartan1362 said:
If I publish a game that openly says "all women should be confined to the kitchen", then that is a sexist game. It doesn't matter if I don't personally feel that women should be confined to the kitchen (heck, I could have tried to convey the opposite and just done a dreadful job) that game is, and always will be, sending a sexist message.
You should clearly introduce this woman to Metroid, Mass Effect 2, and Ocarina of Time. There are definitely games where the women aren't bimbos clad in strategically placed ribbons, even though said games are often hard to find.
No, they should learn to expect the abuse to continue no matter how much they rage for at least a decade. Maybe by then things might have changed due to cultures ability to naturally take women who game in (due to a generation growing up with gaming being a common (50%+ US Population) medium everybody partakes in.) as a regular thing and not the "OMG a girl who play VIDEO GAMES!" that is a result from the past 20 years. However, don't expect teenagers and young adults to quit using racial/sexist/offensive slurs and all around 'inappropriate' behavior, especially in competitive and highly social yet semi-anonymous environments. You are going to get old and ***** about "hooligans" before that ever happens.CaptainKarma said:
As well, expect that some parts of the games industry will NEVER get behind this because people who like controversial material is the target demographic. This will mostly stay in the competitive gaming market as that demographic is mostly made up of young men who are seeking a way to compete to get a primitive desire for dominance amongst peers at a time when those feelings are strongest. Throw in boobies and you got yourself a seller.
It depends on the game really.
In Mass Effect its rather pathetic.
How can I take someone seriously WHEN THERE IS A CAMERA DOING FULL BODY PANNING SHOTS OF THEIR BUTT?
But in a game like Soul Caliber where it fits the art style and men are mostly dressed the same I guess it works.
Also it works for Isabela in Dragon Age 2 since it WORKS for her character.
It does not work to have Miranda dressed like a prostitute, and telling me to respect her.
I am sorry ...ass cleavage renders me unable to take anyone seriously.
In Mass Effect its rather pathetic.
How can I take someone seriously WHEN THERE IS A CAMERA DOING FULL BODY PANNING SHOTS OF THEIR BUTT?
But in a game like Soul Caliber where it fits the art style and men are mostly dressed the same I guess it works.
Also it works for Isabela in Dragon Age 2 since it WORKS for her character.
It does not work to have Miranda dressed like a prostitute, and telling me to respect her.
I am sorry ...ass cleavage renders me unable to take anyone seriously.
Farseer Lolotea said:
"I don't like that argument so I'll pretend it doesn't exist".
Congrats, you're doing the exact same thing you're bitching about, without even making a separate sentence to do it in.
Now it's obvious that the entire complaint is founded in hypocricy to begin with. How's your smug sense of moral superiority going to save you now?
This is because these often represent different ideals. Large muscles are usually power symbols for men (they can be sex symbols, though, but they're usually power symbols in vidoegames). Things like large boobs are sex symbols. We have to make the distinction between who's idealized and who's sexually objectified.Lumber Barber said:
Anyways, one of the things that I don't think has been discussed much here is that there often isn't much variety among female designs. In fighting games, you can find different ages and body types. Even taking into account the fact that most men in fighting games are unrealistically muscular, there still is some variety.
The women are usually young, skinny, and have big boobs or some other testament to their hotness.
You're not the first person to use that logic before. That's why he/she was able to link to explanations of your derailing problems instead of just writing it out.Zaik said:Farseer Lolotea said:
"I don't like that argument so I'll pretend it doesn't exist".
Congrats, you're doing the exact same thing you're bitching about, without even making a separate sentence to do it in.
Now it's obvious that the entire complaint is founded in hypocricy to begin with. How's your smug sense of moral superiority going to save you now?
let me break it down for you:
ugly chicks think its a marginalization of women
hot chicks think its amazing and there's not enough of it (beauty = narcissist)
normal guys don't really care, T&A never killed anybody (some enjoy it more than others) Overall it'll come down to preference like people that hated Uncharted because it wasn't Lara Croft
insecure guys are outraged and offended
ugly chicks think its a marginalization of women
hot chicks think its amazing and there's not enough of it (beauty = narcissist)
normal guys don't really care, T&A never killed anybody (some enjoy it more than others) Overall it'll come down to preference like people that hated Uncharted because it wasn't Lara Croft
insecure guys are outraged and offended
Dont worry. You won't make me mad. Anyone's allowed to disagree with me.lunavixen said:
But I think I'm done with this discussion, I feel as though I could easily slip up and accidentally really offend someone.
It's pretty bad, to be honest. Men are omnipresent, almost always made to be more important than female characters, and when female characters are important, well, they're made much different than the male characters. Hugely, hugely objectified. And no, making dudes manly does not count as objectification of men.
Okay, looks like you've covered it already. Thank you.yunabomb said:
Pretty clear that guy just lashed out rather than actually following the links, to boot.
Wow. And to think it's usually critics who are accused of "having something against attractive women."GZGoten said:
And nice strawman of male critics there, too. Not to mention rather bass-ackwards logic.
Translation: so what if those counter-arguments are so easily refuted that there's a compilation readily available? That's your story and you're sticking to it.hyperbolaholic said:Thanks all the same but I don't look to random people on the internet when seeking enlightenment. Cheers to you and that whole self-confidence thing you've got going. It's really working out for you!
Men are also hugely depicted as perma-stubbled beefcakes, and neither gender tends to have huge amounts of personality. I'd say characterisation and character design in games as a whole could improve.
Seriously if you think women are treated badly in games stop bringing up the bad examples and start promoting the bad examples. It is much easier to poke holes than it is to give a good improvements so start point out the better ones. Eg Beatrix FFIX among many others in many games but a lot in FF games. They may not be able to write a black character that isn't rife with stereotypes but the can sure write women well.
Sure things could improve, but keep in mind that other art forms are mired in their own degrees of sexism. Movies leap to mind, sure in our current day and age women are written into much stronger roles (in general) but there is still plenty of exploitation for sex appeal, at least here in America. Things are progressing, female lead and supporting characters can range from compelling to vacuous sexpots but there is a range. I suppose railing on the sexism is the only way to accelerate the progress, but it seems just a bit wishy washy to expect game design to start going against the shallow desires of its primary demographic.