Poll: Videogames and Women

[Grospoliner]

Firstly, that BF3 "Launch Party" was a Texan gamer group that did in fact ban females from their party. http://www.neoseeker.com/news/16956-texas-gaming-group-bans-women-from-battlefield-3-launch-lan-party/ Rather than being any sort of official channel, not that EA's selection of music for the release trailer of BF3 was any sort of appropriate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o08S7LRglro

Secondly, irony much! The Soul Caliber series does indeed feature beautiful women but most of the female characters do not typically feature skimpy impractical outfits. Of course this isn't the case for the poster child for complaints about sexualization of women in gaming that is Ivy [http://soulcalibur.wikia.com/wiki/Ivy] even though at no point is she ever subservient or demure, though is somewhat tortured and neurotic but still finds resolve to do what she must. I don't think most people ever look past her rack.

Never mind that the majority of the female characters are not overly sexualized in the game, and heavens forbid we mention the ultimate desexed female warrior Hilde [http://soulcalibur.wikia.com/wiki/Hilde] who happens to wear plate armor as her default costume (and manages to look cooler than all the other characters combined). I guess we can go through pointing out all the flaws perceived in a game with regards to this subject without pointing out any of the things they did right.

While we are at it, let's also ignore the atrocity which is American media and the pervasiveness of shallow, vapid, egotistical women who plastered all over the television that mistakenly foster the belief that this is the way women should act. I am of course referring to all the Kardasians, Hiltons, Spears, and every empty husk that appears on any MTV reality show.

The problem isn't unique to gaming alone, neither are the attitudes, the problem is systemic within the culture itself and it is a byproduct of generations of psychological abuse stemming from medieval traditions, Abrahammic religions, greed, fear, and biological instinct to procreate.

We should be aiming at the source of the problem (the psychological problem), not the delivery vehicle (the media).

 

[Savagezion]

That's too mature an argument geared at immature minds.**

I'm sure every little XBL snot isn't intentionally a bigot. But intent isn't magic.

Oh don't get me wrong, they are intentionally assholes. I am simply pointing out that bigotry is the easiest way to be an asshole. Pig, Dog, and the theme of only being able to use 1 head are common female bigoted statements for men. Women will state these things as fact when no male around them has done anything offensive. The whole "women are smarter than men" thing. Women got a fair amount of bigotry in their circle. Just like any other social group.

I am not saying you deny that, I am just bringing that up for the discussion on social behavior. I have had women tell me to suck their cock online. My friend calls me a *****, and is a woman.

I guess my point in response is, intent is key to context. If you WANT to see that as offensive, go ahead I guess. However, a lot of times it isn't meant like that but rather as banter. Sometimes it is meant to be offensive, but only because of their inadequacy being exposed, they feel the need to lash out and do it back at you.
If I was a chick, the constant "show me your boobs" type stuff would get annoying as hell. That is something I think is worth getting worked up over and voicing up about more. Being called a *****, stick and stones. Just listen to "I am beautiful" by Christina Aguilara and feel better. (JK) The other is more along the lines of sexual harassment. That should be an insta-ban worthy offense.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Firstly, that BF3 "Launch Party" was a Texan gamer group that did in fact ban females from their party. http://www.neoseeker.com/news/16956-texas-gaming-group-bans-women-from-battlefield-3-launch-lan-party/ Rather than being any sort of official channel, not that EA's selection of music for the release trailer of BF3 was any sort of appropriate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o08S7LRglro

Everyone knows that. Not everyone thinks that excuses it. It was wrongheaded and chickenshit of them at best.

Secondly, irony much! The Soul Caliber series does indeed feature beautiful women but most of the female characters do not typically feature skimpy impractical outfits. Of course this isn't the case for the poster child for complaints about sexualization of women in gaming that is Ivy [http://soulcalibur.wikia.com/wiki/Ivy] even though at no point is she ever subservient or demure, though is somewhat tortured and neurotic but still finds resolve to do what she must. I don't think most people ever look past her rack.

Never mind that the majority of the female characters are not overly sexualized in the game, and heavens forbid we mention the ultimate desexed female warrior Hilde [http://soulcalibur.wikia.com/wiki/Hilde] who happens to wear plate armor as her default costume (and manages to look cooler than all the other characters combined). I guess we can go through pointing out all the flaws perceived in a game with regards to this subject without pointing out any of the things they did right.

I wouldn't call Hilde "desexed," just not at all fanservicey. You can still tell there's a pretty lady under that armor. (And that juxtaposition is a good thing.)

As for Ivy, refer to what Moviebob said about Mai Shiranui:

...if you know anything about [her], it's because you looked it up.

The same applies here.

While we are at it, let's also ignore the atrocity which is American media and the pervasiveness of shallow, vapid, egotistical women who plastered all over the television that mistakenly foster the belief that this is the way women should act. I am of course referring to all the Kardasians, Hiltons, Spears, and every empty husk that appears on any MTV reality show.

The problem isn't unique to gaming alone, neither are the attitudes, the problem is systemic within the culture itself and it is a byproduct of generations of psychological abuse stemming from medieval traditions, Abrahammic religions, greed, fear, and biological instinct to procreate.

We should be aiming at the source of the problem (the psychological problem), not the delivery vehicle (the media).

For the most part, I agree (although I'd say the drive to procreate has screw-all to do with anything but your typical straight guy's tendency to notice hips). The media is a symptom, not a cause.

But pretending that the symptom doesn't exist, or is irrelevant, is also no way to go about it.

I guess my point in response is, intent is key to context. If you WANT to see that as offensive, go ahead I guess. However, a lot of times it isn't meant like that but rather as banter. Sometimes it is meant to be offensive, but only because of their inadequacy being exposed, they feel the need to lash out and do it back at you.
If I was a chick, the constant "show me your boobs" type stuff would get annoying as hell. That is something I think is worth getting worked up over and voicing up about more. Being called a *****, stick and stones. Just listen to "I am beautiful" by Christina Aguilara and feel better. (JK) The other is more along the lines of sexual harassment. That should be an insta-ban worthy offense.

This has nothing to do with whether or not I'm personally offended. (I actually tend to report the worst shit and move on.)

But the fact still remains that...well, let's say someone flings a racial slur. It makes no difference whether or not it was intended as a generic snarl word; it's still racism.

 

[Lerasai]

I've said my piece on this subject many times before. Basically, men and women should get the same treatment in gaming whether it's to make them sexy or not. Most games have a pretty sizable female audience and we are just as shallow and depraved as the guys. If you need proof as to the numbers and sexual interest, just check out the slash fanbase for any game. Look up what a kink meme is. Or go to tumblr or deviantart. Chicks love video games. Some of us also have a fixation on dudes doing each other, but that's not always related. We're here, we're a bit weird, and we want scantily clad men. So sex them mofos up and get twice the marketing power.

 

[Iron Lightning]

I'm uncertain about the validity of this complaint. It seems to me that the sexist pigs who fuck with women for being women are oftentimes the same people who fuck with everyone simply because they're hidden beneath a veil of anonymity. As a man who plays online I've gotten a fair share of abuse from trash-talking simpletons merely for existing. People calling me a fag, kicking me for winning a game, sending me insulting messages, etc. Vitriol is nigh omnipresent in the multiplayer community.

Yes, the nature of insults hurled at women is different than those lobbed at men but I believe the reason for this is that the English language has gendered insults.

So, I'm not certain that the vitriol women get in multiplayer games is symptomatic of a pervasive sexist attitude against women so much as being the fault of the same immature punks who insult everyone.

Trash talk or no, gendered insults and calling people "fags" are symptomatic. The implication is that if the insults have any truth to them, you're inferior.

I would agree with you that the insults in multiplayer games do mostly attack the victim for being feminine (not necessarily female, mind you.) However, we must realize that competitive multiplayer games are a masculine (again, not necessarily male) enterprise and therefore the best insult is one that derogates the victim for apparently exhibiting feminine qualities (e.g. "fag," "*****," "cocksucker," etc.) Some idiots attribute femininity to all women and therefore choose to call them out for this perceived failing. These same idiots will oftentimes do the same thing to men also automatically because of their shallow need to exert alpha status.

I suppose my main point is that it's mostly immature little snots who automatically fuck with women for being women in order to exert their masculinity and this is not a pervasive trend of inherent misogyny. In fact, I'd hazard that most of the men that you've met online have not been sexist wankers towards you.

If the situation was that men never got denigrated in the online community but women routinely did then you would have more of a point. I'm also willing to admit that there are actual misogynists who play games but outside of them I don't see very much sexism from other players. Even the punktards are more usually the type that insults everyone and not really sexists.

Spoiler: and just for fun

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

[I would agree with you that the insults in multiplayer games do mostly attack the victim for being feminine (not necessarily female, mind you.) However, we must realize that competitive multiplayer games are a masculine (again, not necessarily male) enterprise and therefore the best insult is one that derogates the victim for apparently exhibiting feminine qualities (e.g. "fag," "*****," "cocksucker," etc.) Some idiots attribute femininity to all women and therefore choose to call them out for this perceived failing. These same idiots will oftentimes do the same thing to men also automatically because of their shallow need to exert alpha status.

I suppose my main point is that it's mostly immature little snots who automatically fuck with women for being women in order to exert their masculinity and this is not a pervasive trend of inherent misogyny.

Well, here's the thing: Equating femininity (whatever the heck that means) with weakness, and needing to "exert" one's masculinity? That seems pretty sexist in its own right.

In fact, I'd hazard that most of the men that you've met online have not been sexist wankers towards you.

No, but I'm also aware that I've been at least reasonably lucky in that regard.

If the situation was that men never got denigrated in the online community but women routinely did then you would have more of a point. I'm also willing to admit that there are actual misogynists who play games but outside of them I don't see very much sexism from other players. Even the punktards are more usually the type that insults everyone and not really sexists.

Again: automatically equating being female or feminine with being incompetent or ineffectual is sexism. Even if it's not the intent, and the punklets are just trying to boost their own egos.

The comic is funny, by the way.

 

[LilithSlave]

I know that nobody wants to hear this coming from me, considering I'm a loudmouth non-fan of first person shooters. But first person shooter fans, way to throw your image in the gutter with things like this. Hearing about things like that almost make me feel ashamed to be a gamer. And certainly don't make me want to try a first person shooter more.

 

[zehydra]

"treat their female characters like...pieces of meat to be drooled over. Is this really the image we should be presenting to the world? The press is quick to label games as juvenile adolescent male fantasies and our response is to EMBRACE this criticism? What the hell?"

Who are you talking to, the gamer community? or the GAME DEVELOPER community?

To be honest, I am quite tired of the whole "gamer image" thing. If someone judges me for playing video games because of they think video games are inherently sexist, then that's their problem, not mine.

I've learned long ago to disregard what the every-day stranger thinks of you.

 

[zehydra]

I know that nobody wants to hear this coming from me, considering I'm a loudmouth non-fan of first person shooters. But first person shooter fans, way to throw your image in the gutter with things like this. Hearing about things like that almost make me feel ashamed to be a gamer. And certainly don't make me want to try a first person shooter more.

You shouldn't feel "proud" to be a gamer either. Gaming as a hobby warrants neither shame nor pride.

 

[Iron Lightning]

[I would agree with you that the insults in multiplayer games do mostly attack the victim for being feminine (not necessarily female, mind you.) However, we must realize that competitive multiplayer games are a masculine (again, not necessarily male) enterprise and therefore the best insult is one that derogates the victim for apparently exhibiting feminine qualities (e.g. "fag," "*****," "cocksucker," etc.) Some idiots attribute femininity to all women and therefore choose to call them out for this perceived failing. These same idiots will oftentimes do the same thing to men also automatically because of their shallow need to exert alpha status.

I suppose my main point is that it's mostly immature little snots who automatically fuck with women for being women in order to exert their masculinity and this is not a pervasive trend of inherent misogyny.

Well, here's the thing: Equating femininity (whatever the heck that means) with weakness, and needing to "exert" one's masculinity? That seems pretty sexist in its own right.

The form of feminine that I'm using here is defined by the World English Dictionary as: "possessing qualities or characteristics considered typical of or appropriate to a woman" as in the stereotypical version of a woman that you might find in Metroid: Other M or Princess Peach. Now, of course, being a woman does not automatically make you a feminine creature but idiots who are incapable of thinking of people not as blunt stereotypes would consider it impossible that a woman not be feminine. The drive to compete and competitive multiplayer are masculine things. Thus people will revel any form of femininity that arises in those situations. If you were playing a rousing game of Halo and someone started complaining because they got killed in a fair fight would you not be annoyed? The aforementioned idiots are sexist in that they view women as inherently, totally feminine.

I was a bit wrong to say that the punkets are not sexist. However, we must keep in mind that the punkets are a vocal minority and are idiots, thus making them not worthy of our attention.

In fact, I'd hazard that most of the men that you've met online have not been sexist wankers towards you.

No, but I'm also aware that I've been at least reasonably lucky in that regard.

I'm not certain that you are so lucky. Obviously those women who share your status of not being routinely harassed would not be very vocal in proclaiming such. With that in mind, consider the possibility that a vocal minority of rightly outraged women have made their plight seem much more commonplace than it actual is.

The comic is funny, by the way.

I'm glad that you have good taste in webcomics

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

The drive to compete and competitive multiplayer are masculine things. Thus people will revel any form of femininity that arises in those situations.

Amusingly enough, some of the most eager PvPers in my guild are rather "girlie." But I digress.

If you were playing a rousing game of Halo and someone started complaining because they got killed in a fair fight would you not be annoyed?

If I was the one who'd killed them, I'd probably say "you lost; get over it" and leave it at that.

I'd be a lot more annoyed at someone who tried to tip the scales in their direction, lost, and whined about it. Or who was on a team, fucked up, and blamed everyone else.

I'm not certain that you are so lucky. Obviously those women who share your status of not being routinely harassed would not be very vocal in proclaiming such. With that in mind, consider the possibility that a vocal minority of rightly outraged women have made their plight seem much more commonplace than it actual is.

Could be, but it seems just a bit too widespread for that to be entirely the case.

 

[LilithSlave]

ugly chicks think its a marginalization of women

So anyone who isn't cool with the double standard of objectification and demeaning representation of women in video games is just "ugly" by your objective standard of beauty?

Yeah, that's just ridiculous. Heck, you're exemplifying the problem right here by marginalizing an opinion as only being held by "ugly" people, and "ugly people" in your eyes as having invalid opinions.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

Yeah, that's just ridiculous. Heck, you're exemplifying the problem right here by marginalizing an opinion as only being held by "ugly" people, and "ugly people" in your eyes as having invalid opinions.

Don't forget that that's also the same person who claimed that attractive women are automatically "narcissists." Not to mention that any guy who thinks it's marginalization must be "insecure" and not entirely "normal."

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

This is about "men liking women," you say? Then why, if a woman complains about it, does the first line of defense always seem to be to start flinging insults?

I don't know what you're driving at here, it doesn't matter who complains about it, it's a stupid complaint regardless of gender.

So...it's "sexist" to criticize the portrayal of female characters, but not to reduce them to tits and ass. How do you even figure?

No, it's sexist for people to say that women can't be displayed sexually in games. It's not necessarily sexist to reduce a character to just physical form, the issue there is just shit game design.

Shouting down criticism is a pretty rotten attitude in its own right. Just saying.

The issue with gamers attitudes needs to be dealt with elsewhere, games can't solve that, nor can forum discussion.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

I don't know what you're driving at here, it doesn't matter who complains about it, it's a stupid complaint regardless of gender.

Case in point: rather than even trying to defend your own position, you just rail at the idea that anyone doesn't share it.

What I meant, by the way, was exactly what I said: if a woman says anything unfavorable about the portrayal of female characters, it's almost inevitable that someone's going to immediately resort to schoolyard name-calling.

No, it's sexist for people to say that women can't be displayed sexually in games. It's not necessarily sexist to reduce a character to just physical form, the issue there is just shit game design.

No one's claimed that "women can't be displayed sexually in games." That's what's known as a strawman.

However, it is sexist??and, yes, shit game design as well??for only women to be displayed thusly, and for it to be so much less common for female characters to be portrayed otherwise.

The issue with gamers attitudes needs to be dealt with elsewhere, games can't solve that, nor can forum discussion.

Or is it just that you'd simply rather not hear about it, lest you start having to consider if your own attitude [http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2011/11/nerds-and-male-privilege/all/1/] isn't part of the problem [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/4719-Gender-Games]?

 

[Vegosiux]

While I usually claim that reading into things can be fun, some types of reading into things does give me a migraine. However, let me put in my 0.02?.

"The Chick" is a fiction archetype older than steam at least. And we also know that sex sells, we have centuries of our society's development to blame for that. Now, I'm not going into whether or not it's sexist, fiction is fiction, and my problem with it isn't sexism, it's originality or lack thereof. I'm pretty opposed to clichéd set-ups in the first place, yes, so I usually have a problem with "the chick" because frankly, it's unoriginal, I've seen it a million times and it's a waste of my time and hardware to have a female character in my games that's only there for the boobage. (Now, in case of ME2 with Miranda, at least she has some character depth going for her)

The main problem, however, is that in this age where fiction related entertainment surrounds us, it skews our perception of reality.

Also, don't get me started on advertising, please.

 

[michiehoward]

Games are make believe, and some gamers are little angsty "I hate my mom" brats, who take it out on the closest female, or just rude. Your sister will need thicker skin in the real world never mind the gaming world.

 

[Aurora Firestorm]

You should clearly introduce this woman to Metroid, Mass Effect 2, and Ocarina of Time. There are definitely games where the women aren't bimbos clad in strategically placed ribbons, even though said games are often hard to find.

I'm going to put you on the spot here, just because you're the latest in the thread to suggest Mass Effect 2.
In Mass Effect, we have:
Commander ShepHERd: Palette swap from a male. She's a decent female character because her sex is utterly irrelevant, which definitely works. She's also dressed like a gorram tank.
Miranda: Yes she's massively competent and a pretty decent character. She's also eye-candy made flesh, with a ridiculous form fitting outfit and absolutely gratuitous ass shots.
Tali: Young naive girl who idolises Shepherd for all the times he's rescued her. Has a romance that's laden with creepy undertones. Risks her health and her life just to have sex with Shepherd. That takes submissive to a new level.
Jack: Practically naked, emotionally scarred psycopath who Shepherd cures with his dick.
Samara: Ancient and powerful police officer. Inexplicable has a foot of cleavage.

Mass Effect has some good points with its characterisation, but at the same time its female characters are pure fan-service. Don't even get me started on the weird bisexual-but-not-really-but-totally-hot-lesbian Asari.

BioWare can be pretty progressive at times, but they shot themselves in the foot massively with ME2.

Okay, I'll admit I never played Mass Effect 1. So all I know is FemShep, and she's about the most badass thing ever. I don't really even consider Male Shepard to exist. I also think it's awesome when women dress like a "gorram tank," because it's the exact opposite of what you'd expect from the video game industry -- and on the Normandy, she's wearing perfectly sensible clothes. Samus Aran is dressed far more like a tank than Shepard ever was, and no one is dissing her for it.

There really isn't anything wrong with submissive women; I think Miranda is an incredibly badass woman whose costume doesn't take away from her sheer assertiveness; I can't explan away Samara and Jack, but in the end, you could do a lot, lot worse than Mass Effect. I know it's not really an excuse to say "but look how bad it can get elsewhere," but really, when Ivy from Soul Calibur exists, I'm not sure I can complain too much about lesbian Asari. And seriously, the first thing Miranda does is coldly shoots a guy in the face -- can you really say she's T&A eye candy when she's swinging around a personality like that? Ivy is eye candy made flesh, as are the Dead or Alive girls. Miranda is actually fully clothed, whether or not it's a form-fitting suit.

 

[Wilko316]

I took into consideration women who are gamers aswell as women within video games, honestly I think women who play video games alot haven't been portrayed in the kindest light but the gamer ladies I've met are mostly very different to stereotypical views, so I guess it's just who you personally know.
The portrayal of women within video games is a swamp of shite that is in serious need of getting rid of, I reckon if they based more characters off of real women, women the writers/developers, whoever, actually know instead of just taking the typical fantasy woman creation then they might do some justice to this view of females in video games.

 

[TheDooD]

oh man this thread AGAIN...

Women can be smart, sexy, witty, badass, dangerous, heartwarming and pretty much whatever the creators of the game wanted them to be instead of shallow token notions of what other people think woman should be in games they aren't making.