Poll: Yahtzee changes joke in ZP video

[nuttshell]

Allright, let's spice this up. Please read through the whole post, as the first part is very controversial. Yeah, we're going for Godwin's Law!

Many people disregard the fact that Hitler wasn't just a psychopathic mass murderer. He had his hopes, his fears, he stood under a lot of preassure and he valued art very much. This doesn't change or excuse the fact, that he was also a psychopathic mass-murderer. The fact that he was human and still commited terrible atrocities, spreads fear, anger and disgust and many people would rather not talk about these things. It also makes him a good target for jokes, which means people talk about him. If we stopped talking about these things, pretending they didn't happen, we can't do anything to prevent them. It's that simple. The fact, that many people still commit to exterminating all jews on this planet - a horrifying idea - doesn't change or excuse every action ever done by every jew and the state of israel or it's allies. And still, people are regularly shut up, when they voice their criticism.

No, I think, it's wrong, Yahtzee changed his joke. However, I think he should have clarified, how the joke was intended, and admit to a bad presentation, given the controversy around it. He clarified his change, so that's allright. But changing the joke stops people who will hear it in the future and dont read the disclaimer, to have a discussion about it like this one.

 

[Lightknight]

as I said before: gay men are attracted to masculinity, tell me what is masculine about a pair of breasts? Nothing. Transsexual porn is not directed at gay men because it features a man/woman and a transsexual. It's targeted at heterosexual and bisexual men.

I'm sorry but i've read a lot on this (my library had a shockingly large amount on the subject) and well...the fact is that heterosexual men are attracted to femininity, gay men: masculinity.

There are just some men who fetishize (sp?) a woman with a dick, and they identify as heterosexual, it's why futanari hentai is so prevalent.

it's a weird thing about sexuality I suppose.

It should be assumed that by the nature of the joke that this was a pre-op transexual with a dick that the individual was sexually a male. How, in your scenario, is the individual supposed to have feminine breasts if they're pre-op (aka, have not undergone a sex change in which breast augmentation is usually part of the process)? Hormonal supplementation can do a little along those lines but it doesn't go the full-nine yards.

I get that there is a culture around what you're specifically talking about, but I fail to see how it applies to this particular setup? I believe your particular offense would only make sense if Yahtzee had used a term like shemale or something to indicate that it was a feminine individual that differed from females in only one region. You don't seem unreasonable, so perhaps looking at it from this angle may shed a new light on the topic.

Thanks for your response, by the way. I hope I'm not making you feel uncomfortable or insulted.

 

[Cabisco]

Anyone who gets offended by a joke is too thinned skin.

I've heard some godawful jokes in my time, but I've never once been offended by. Sure, I've found them tasteless, crude, etc, but not once have I thought 'You know what? This joke hurts my feelings. Time to let everyone know just how hurt my feelings are."

The joke in question was more about cognitive dissonance, then it was a dig at transsexuals, but then again, I've seen some really obvious Critical Miss jokes fly right over the heads of people around here, so hey, what do I know?

No such thing as thin skin when you're the butt end of ridicule.

It hurts, man. Regardless of how much of a tough-guy you think you are. No one likes to be laughed at or made fun of.

Except he wasn't making fun of transsexuals, again, he was making fun of homophobes and a system that refuses to acknowledge transsexuals.

It has nothing to do with being a tough guy, it's about not having a persecution complex and actually recognising the real joke.

I don't give a fuck what's between your legs and when, but that doesn't mean you're out of bounds when it comes to taking the piss.

I think you've pretty much summed up my feelings on this. I remember when these forums were all about how shitty getting the RROD was, simpler times man.

 

[Rosiv]

as I said before: gay men are attracted to masculinity, tell me what is masculine about a pair of breasts? Nothing. Transsexual porn is not directed at gay men because it features a man/woman and a transsexual. It's targeted at heterosexual and bisexual men.

I'm sorry but i've read a lot on this (my library had a shockingly large amount on the subject) and well...the fact is that heterosexual men are attracted to femininity, gay men: masculinity.

There are just some men who fetishize (sp?) a woman with a dick, and they identify as heterosexual, it's why futanari hentai is so prevalent.

it's a weird thing about sexuality I suppose.

It should be assumed that by the nature of the joke that this was a pre-op transexual with a dick that the individual was sexually a male. How, in your scenario, is the individual supposed to have feminine breasts if they're pre-op (aka, have not undergone a sex change in which breast augmentation is usually part of the process)? Hormonal supplementation can do a little along those lines but it doesn't go the full-nine yards.

I get that there is a culture around what you're specifically talking about, but I fail to see how it applies to this particular setup? I believe your particular offense would only make sense if Yahtzee had used a term like shemale or something to indicate that it was a feminine individual that differed from females in only one region. You don't seem unreasonable, so perhaps looking at it from this angle may shed a new light on the topic.

Thanks for your response, by the way. I hope I'm not making you feel uncomfortable or insulted.

Well HRT can make a completely feminine body that has a dick, so its possible, i dont want to be crude, but there are pre-operative pornstars that have surprised me on a many occasion of browsing. I mean it depends on the age of transition, i dont really think MtF get breast implants anyways, else that would conflict with the HRT they would take, ie: breast growth on breast growth.

I guess it comes down to what pre-op means, which is iffy. Although if you consider the phrase op to mean operation, then it would connotate the vaginoplasty, which doesnt exclude HRT.

 

[Arkynomicon]

I think people needs to stop whining about everything that is slightly offensive. They make the world a very boring place.

 

[Uncreation]

I have to say, if the change, was actually caused by peoples whinning and was not just a decision that he came to by himself, then i have lost a lot of respect for Yahtzee. I still hope he isn't the kind of person to cave to the bitching of the masses like that.

 

[Lightknight]

Well HRT can make a completely feminine body that has a dick, so its possible, i dont want to be crude, but there are pre-operative pornstars that have surprised me on a many occasion of browsing. I mean it depends on the age of transition, i dont really think MtF get breast implants anyways, else that would conflict with the HRT they would take, ie: breast growth on breast growth.

I guess it comes down to what pre-op means, which is iffy. Although if you consider the phrase op to mean operation, then it would connotate the vaginoplasty, which doesnt exclude HRT.

I'd say you're taking offense to what would be a very specific situation. An exception to the norm of an already uncommon demographic. I think the intention was pretty clear in the context of the discussion. It was referring to a transexual female who was still every bit a male physically. As you stated, heterosexual males are attracted to femininity and homosexual males to masculinity. His point was very much on an individual attracted to masculinity.

I just think it's clear and that you'd have to work at it for a few exceptions for male bodies that recieved HRT at a VERY young age. Most don't get that opportunity. In fact, it's commonly considered unethical to give them before a reasonable age in many places.

 

[chinangel]

as I said before: gay men are attracted to masculinity, tell me what is masculine about a pair of breasts? Nothing. Transsexual porn is not directed at gay men because it features a man/woman and a transsexual. It's targeted at heterosexual and bisexual men.

I'm sorry but i've read a lot on this (my library had a shockingly large amount on the subject) and well...the fact is that heterosexual men are attracted to femininity, gay men: masculinity.

There are just some men who fetishize (sp?) a woman with a dick, and they identify as heterosexual, it's why futanari hentai is so prevalent.

it's a weird thing about sexuality I suppose.

It should be assumed that by the nature of the joke that this was a pre-op transexual with a dick that the individual was sexually a male. How, in your scenario, is the individual supposed to have feminine breasts if they're pre-op (aka, have not undergone a sex change in which breast augmentation is usually part of the process)? Hormonal supplementation can do a little along those lines but it doesn't go the full-nine yards.

I get that there is a culture around what you're specifically talking about, but I fail to see how it applies to this particular setup? I believe your particular offense would only make sense if Yahtzee had used a term like shemale or something to indicate that it was a feminine individual that differed from females in only one region. You don't seem unreasonable, so perhaps looking at it from this angle may shed a new light on the topic.

Thanks for your response, by the way. I hope I'm not making you feel uncomfortable or insulted.

I'm neither uncomfortable nor insulted, just trying to be informing ^^

And actually hormones do a lot for breast growth. THey follow a genetic pattern that is dormant in CIS men. Basically, look at your mother, that would be your breast growth if you were transgendered or female, and estrogen activates that. In most cases, Breast Augmentation surgery is not part of the procedure, though some choose to get it.

I can see this being the case if the person in question was a crossdresser, though again crossdresser's are not always gay: a large portion of them are men, so...yeah this joke is a bit confused.

 

[Lightknight]

as I said before: gay men are attracted to masculinity, tell me what is masculine about a pair of breasts? Nothing. Transsexual porn is not directed at gay men because it features a man/woman and a transsexual. It's targeted at heterosexual and bisexual men.

I'm sorry but i've read a lot on this (my library had a shockingly large amount on the subject) and well...the fact is that heterosexual men are attracted to femininity, gay men: masculinity.

There are just some men who fetishize (sp?) a woman with a dick, and they identify as heterosexual, it's why futanari hentai is so prevalent.

it's a weird thing about sexuality I suppose.

It should be assumed that by the nature of the joke that this was a pre-op transexual with a dick that the individual was sexually a male. How, in your scenario, is the individual supposed to have feminine breasts if they're pre-op (aka, have not undergone a sex change in which breast augmentation is usually part of the process)? Hormonal supplementation can do a little along those lines but it doesn't go the full-nine yards.

I get that there is a culture around what you're specifically talking about, but I fail to see how it applies to this particular setup? I believe your particular offense would only make sense if Yahtzee had used a term like shemale or something to indicate that it was a feminine individual that differed from females in only one region. You don't seem unreasonable, so perhaps looking at it from this angle may shed a new light on the topic.

Thanks for your response, by the way. I hope I'm not making you feel uncomfortable or insulted.

I'm neither uncomfortable nor insulted, just trying to be informing ^^

And actually hormones do a lot for breast growth. THey follow a genetic pattern that is dormant in CIS men. Basically, look at your mother, that would be your breast growth if you were transgendered or female, and estrogen activates that. In most cases, Breast Augmentation surgery is not part of the procedure, though some choose to get it.

I can see this being the case if the person in question was a crossdresser, though again crossdresser's are not always gay: a large portion of them are men, so...yeah this joke is a bit confused.

I think his edit of the joke certainly got rid of any possibilities.

I haven't seen HRT be that effective unless taken at a really young age. You can absolutely get men with breasts I think it's clear that Yahtzee was just referring to a fully male body before the operation. The are absolutely exceptions but I doubt we would really confuse that with him talking about a mostly female body that had a dick.

 

[Queen Michael]

You know, if transsexual people's feelings were hurt by this, then I applaud Yahtzee for changing it. I'm happy that he actually cares about the feelings about people who appreciate his work. Transsexuals have a hard enough time as it is.

Let me be frank: That your videos are controversial is one thing. But if they geuinely hurt the feelings of people who were supposed to enjoy them, then you're doing something wrong. Yahtzee understands that.

 

[LetalisK]

If Yahtzee wants to change the joke, I don't particularly care and I'm not going to assume he was pressured by anyone to do it nor would I hold it against him as that just seems like a silly thing to do. I have no reason to believe he didn't do it genuinely. That said, that doesn't mean I can't also disagree with the controversy around it.

 

[Rosiv]

Well HRT can make a completely feminine body that has a dick, so its possible, i dont want to be crude, but there are pre-operative pornstars that have surprised me on a many occasion of browsing. I mean it depends on the age of transition, i dont really think MtF get breast implants anyways, else that would conflict with the HRT they would take, ie: breast growth on breast growth.

I guess it comes down to what pre-op means, which is iffy. Although if you consider the phrase op to mean operation, then it would connotate the vaginoplasty, which doesnt exclude HRT.

I'd say you're taking offense to what would be a very specific situation. An exception to the norm of an already uncommon demographic. I think the intention was pretty clear in the context of the discussion. It was referring to a transexual female who was still every bit a male physically. As you stated, heterosexual males are attracted to femininity and homosexual males to masculinity. His point was very much on an individual attracted to masculinity.

I just think it's clear and that you'd have to work at it for a few exceptions for male bodies that recieved HRT at a VERY young age. Most don't get that opportunity. In fact, it's commonly considered unethical to give them before a reasonable age in many places.

Well i personally didnt take offense, im just saying that hormones arent perfect, but they can result in good bodies even not counting age, it also depends on what you mean by good body, i mean some women are just androgynous in general. Some people take to hormones well, others dont. I mean even women with regular levels who are natural born end of with masculine builds for who knows what reason.

But according to the joke image, the person in question at the time was flat, and had a beard, so i guess they were male bodied, to a degree. So i cant say you are wrong i guess.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

He must still be afraid of getting stabbed by Rebecca Mayes....

 

[IceForce]

I feel kinda compelled to upload the original now to youtube just because :L

I was wondering if anyone saved the original.
I tried googling around, but couldn't find it.

I assumed that no one thought to save it, since no one expected Yahtzee to change it.
I certainly didn't expect a ZP video to be edited just to change a joke in it.

 

[Lightknight]

Well i personally didnt take offense, im just saying that hormones arent perfect, but they can result in good bodies even not counting age, it also depends on what you mean by good body, i mean some women are just androgynous in general. Some people take to hormones well, others dont. I mean even women with regular levels who are natural born end of with masculine builds for who knows what reason.

But according to the joke image, the person in question at the time was flat, and had a beard, so i guess they were male bodied, to a degree. So i cant say you are wrong i guess.

After a certain age, the effects of HRT are unable to reverse a number of changes brought on by puberty. This includes, for example, body hair and bone structure. The breasts also aren't formed as fully as they would have been had the person been born physically female.

But yes, the accompanying image was a very masculine individual.

 

[Smeatza]

Classifies, segregates, and sometimes dehumanizes people. Its actually a documented psychological effect. I don't want to sound like a hippie or an alarmist, but there's a good reason as to why you should avoid deadpan jokes at the expense of an entire people group.
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide#Stages_of_genocide.2C_influences_leading_to_genocide.2C_and_efforts_to_prevent_it ).

I see what you're saying, but they're more of a warning sign than they are a confirmation of dehumanisation.

Of course there's a difference between a joke that is an observation about what happens to a group of people and about a joke about that group of people themselves. The joke wasn't an observation of transgender people, it was more of a bash at closeted politicians defending their actions while it was implicitly stating that a transgender woman is really just down pat a man.

The way I saw it, it was stating that pre-op transgender women have penis'. Nothing more.
For the joke to work Yahtzee needed a group of people who have penis' but aren't men. So that the subject of the joke could say "I might be sucking a dick but I'm not gay because this person is not a man."
The only possible implications there are of homosexuality.

In typing this post though I have come to realise that there is an interpretation of the joke which is directly offensive. When looked at in a certain light both the implication you mentioned is made to the audience and the subject of the joke is mocked for having a more accurate understanding of gender identity than the audience.

Because he's not actually perpetuating anything on an entire group in most of his other jokes, and when he does, its with exaggeration to let people know he wasn't serious. The exaggeration itself is typically the joke. There's no exaggeration in the "pre-op transsexual" joke, however, its intent to focus on some lying politician, whether it be on the basis he's denying his homosexual tendencies or that he's defending his promiscuous activities. Again, accidentally, he perpetuates the idea that transgender identities aren't legitimate.

I can see how it would look that way in some interpretations. That's the thing about comedy, it can seem completely innocuous from one angle.......

I do understand the fundamentals of comedy. I understand that it wasn't his intention for the joke to be transphobic. But it was, even if it was an accident. Granted, yes, some people know think he's a bigot, and I think thats a misjudgment, an overreaction on their part over a (slightly regrettable) choice of words, and I'm not denying that there were people like that. Their existence doesn't mean that there wasn't something wrong with the joke to begin with, though.

Does that mean there's something wrong with the joke itself though? If it's only cissexist (much more applicable term) under certain interpretations, is there something wrong with the joke? Or just the way it's told? Did the reference to pre-op transexuals have to be removed entirely? Or could the joke just have been adjusted to remove the implication?

Bearing all of the above in mind. I don't blame Yahtzee for removing the reference anymore, it will have been much easier (and probably less controversial) than amending the joke. I just wish he'd defended the joke just a tiny bit, acknowledged that it could be viewed in an innocuous light as well.

I'll just leave this here then, so you understand why thats a bad thing for transpeople.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transphobia

As always with Wikipedia, its a good starting resource, but rarely a good destination.

Now that's a bit dramatic, discrimination and persecution are not the same as ignorance and generalisation.
"Transphobia is a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards transsexualism and transsexual or transgender people, based on the expression of their internal gender identity."
Not relevant to my comment.
"Cissexism, which is sometimes used as a synonym of transphobia, refers to the assumptions that all men and all women are biological male or female and that trans people are inferior to cis people."
This is, now I'm not sure if both of those are required for cissexism, or just one of them. But nobody here is stating that trans folk are inferior to anyone else so we can throw that out.
The assumption that "all men and all women are biological male or female" is inherently ignorant. Even if one knew nothing about gender identity, a basic knowledge of genetics would debunk that assumption. So, can general ignorance be considered discriminatory itself? Because I think it just more easily allows for discriminatory behaviour.

I do see where you're coming from, but I don't like equating ignorance with hate (i.e. the lack of a knowledge of gender identity being equated with transphobia).

 

[Erana]

I don't think it needed to be changed; this is the internet, after all.

However, this doesn't feel like someone backing down when faced with repercussions for their actions, this feels like someone going "Hey, sorry, I genuinely wasn't thinking that what I said would hurt in that way. That was far from my intention." You know, how mature, grown-up people handle things like this in a civilized situation. Yahtzee obviously doesn't hate transsexuals or transgender people, and ultimately, arguing for his right to use transsex/gender peoples in his joke not even relevant, as the Extra Punctuation article explains, because he was alluding directly to the content of the video game in question.

As far as I'm concerned, this issue is over and done, with my further respecting Yahzee as a writer and person for responding calmly and respectfully about this matter.

 

[Gamer_152]

I wasn't offended by the joke, but I did think it was a rather exclusionary joke in a community and wider society that is already far too exclusionary to trans people. Good on Yahtzee for making the change.

 

[Geowulf]

I'm a Nationalist Socialist and I have been offended by Yahtzee's jokes about nazis! I demand an apology!
It saddens me that my favorite game critic decided to let politcal correctness ruin the joke.
Yahtzee is gay, it's official now.

 

[Dismal purple]

If Yahtzee did this on his own volition and wasn't pressured into it then it can't be anything but a good thing.