Poll: Your thoughts about the ME 3 ending extension.

[Vault101]

It's better than a Saturday morning cartoon... most of the time, but it's still bad writing.

and again....I disagree

 

[Starke]

It's better than a Saturday morning cartoon... most of the time, but it's still bad writing.

and again....I disagree

And this is where the industry runs off the rails. We have fans who will gleefully defend franchises that are so irredeemably stupid as to include the Starchild, the Giant Space Terminator Baby, and of course scientific details that make most Manga look well researched. To say nothing of a company that has re-released the exact same story, with a rotating cast of the same characters in different settings for over a decade.

If this what passes for "good writing" in the industry... yeah, we're fucked.

 

[Vault101]

]And this is where the industry runs off the rails. We have fans who will gleefully defend franchises that are so irredeemably stupid as to include the Starchild, the Giant Space Terminator Baby, and of course scientific details that make most Manga look well researched. To say nothing of a company that has re-released the exact same story, with a rotating cast of the same characters in different settings for over a decade.

If this what passes for "good writing" in the industry... yeah, we're fucked.

I'd rather you explain it and be specific rather than

"the writings bad"
"no it isnt"
"yes it is"

the giant space terminator baby? some peopel thourght it was silly I guese..aparently the original design looked more "fetus" like which perahps would have seemed less rediculous. I didnt mind it so much...its not like it comes out of nowhere plot/context wise

the reaper starchild was...well pretty bad considered the enite ending, Im still somwhat confused as to what exactally the catalyst is but its pretty stupid if we are suposed to take it all at face vaule, the starchilds logic is flawed and its uncharachteristic of shepard to simply accept it all

scientific details?....not realistic enough or somthing? that depends on how hard you like your sci fi..I see no issue with the lore surrounding mass effect drives and all that...theyre not going into "hyerdrive" or whatever..then again its not like I spent hours going over the codex...

All in all, I'm not going to dismiss Bioware completely because they made one (albeit rather large) mistake.

Give them a chance, guys.

I agree....

 

[Starke]

And this is where the industry runs off the rails. We have fans who will gleefully defend franchises that are so irredeemably stupid as to include the Starchild, the Giant Space Terminator Baby, and of course scientific details that make most Manga look well researched. To say nothing of a company that has re-released the exact same story, with a rotating cast of the same characters in different settings for over a decade.

If this what passes for "good writing" in the industry... yeah, we're fucked.

I'd rather you explain it and be specific rather than

"the writings bad"
"no it isnt"
"yes it is"

Okay, here's some meat for thought, when you played Mass Effect 2, why didn't you tell the Vermire survivor you weren't working for Cerberus? For that matter, why are you working for Cerberus? You can swing by the council, and say "Hi." Why didn't you, while you were there, say "fuck Cerberus, I want to work for you guys again"?

the giant space terminator baby? some peopel thourght it was silly I guese..aparently the original design looked more "fetus" like which perahps would have seemed less rediculous. I didnt mind it so much...its not like it comes out of nowhere plot/context wise

The problem with the giant space terminator baby is it is stupid. Really stupid. No, that's too intelligent, it's way dumber than even that.

Ever play Alan Wake? He makes a comment once, in-between some really gawd-awful prose, and some narration that sounds like Raphael Sabarge just downed a gallon of Valium, he blithers that a story must have consistency. You can't end your story by saying "and then a walrus, and they all lived happily ever after." But, that is, in a nutshell exactly how Mass Effect 2 ends. And then a space terminator walrus baby of stupid.

The problem with the Reaper Baby isn't even that it's stupid. As you said, it's not too irredeemably stupid on it's face. The problem is, it is fairly stupid and comes out of nowhere, with no explanation. It's a sloppy form of deus ex machina, that Tropes dubs the Space Flea from Nowhere, if I remember correctly. In other words, bad writing.

the reaper starchild was...well pretty bad considered the enite ending, Im still somwhat confused as to what exactally the catalyst is but its pretty stupid if we are suposed to take it all at face vaule, the starchilds logic is flawed and its uncharachteristic of shepard to simply accept it all

The problem with the Starchild is this, it wasn't written by their writers. All the incoherent rambling bullshit that follows stems from this single issue. Hudson wrote it. Hudson, as we have learned, cannot write his way out of a paper bag. Hudson chucks everything off the deep end to create, what he believes is a genuinely intelligent thought provoking piece of art. Sort of like every David Lynch fanfic writer out there (honestly, I hope such a thing doesn't exist, but this is the internet, it must).

scientific details?....not realistic enough or somthing? that depends on how hard you like your sci fi..I see no issue with the lore surrounding mass effect drives and all that...theyre not going into "hyerdrive" or whatever..then again its not like I spent hours going over the codex...

Oddly enough, no. Scientific accuracy in the background I could care less about. That's just part of the setting, and like it or not, part of the general conceit of some flavors of Science Fiction, Mass Effect included.

The problem is when those scientific details are plot points. Sit on this one and think for a while, see if it comes to you.

All in all, I'm not going to dismiss Bioware completely because they made one (albeit rather large) mistake.

Give them a chance, guys.

I agree....

I'm not going to storm their offices and force them to stop working on it, but this isn't some struggling artist or underdog who just needs that one push to reveal their true mettle. This is a major corporation, giving them "one more chance" is kinda pointless because, quite frankly, they've already shown exactly what they're capable of.

 

[Vault101]

Okay, here's some meat for thought, when you played Mass Effect 2, why didn't you tell the Vermire survivor you weren't working for Cerberus? For that matter, why are you working for Cerberus? You can swing by the council, and say "Hi." Why didn't you, while you were there, say "fuck Cerberus, I want to work for you guys again"?

shepard had the illusives mans backing (money rescources, people) weather that counts as "working for" or not is up to how you see it.What WAS clear was that shepard had connections to cerberus, he/she couln't have just outright denied that to the virmire survivor, doing that would have confirmed what ashley/Kaiden were rambling on about

shepard actually did pretty much say that it was like he/she had "joined" cerberus out of belivng in their "cause" it was out of nessecity, and that Kaiden/ash should know that Shepard would never join a terrorist group without and damn good reason...and even they would never belive their bullshit

Kaiden/ash did overeact, which sucked. you would think after all you've been through with those charachters...however you could argue that Kaiden/ash are VERY loyal to the Alliance...to see somone they care about run off and join "the enemy" would be a real shock, also if they did come back from the dead then (as kaiden kind of said) who's to say its really shepard? or that shepard isnt being controlled be cerberus (I actually think "killing" shepard was a bit extreme)

second point

[i/]ah yes.."reapers"...we have dismissed that claim[/i] <- thats pretty much why, the council doesn't want to know about it, as far as they concerned the Geth are the problem (because as they said, theres no evidence to suggest otherwise..and giant space "reapers" thats too far fetched), I think even in the opening scene Miranda comments on how the council "sent comander shepard after Geth". I guess you could say that makes the council really really strupid..but then again thease days you have climate change skeptics, and from their perspective why WOULD it be giant space mosnters? as opoased to the geth?

Now had Shepard not died, I don't really know what assignments the council would have sent him/her on...but if it was anything Reaper related I doubt they would have indulged shepards "ideas"....I don't know how much input the council has in SPECTRE missions, so mabye shepard could have gone off on his/her own to invesitgate reaper related stuff (as in Collectors) however if you have a rouge spectre running around chasing bogey men....mabye they would have even shut shepard up themselves...like kicking him/her out of the spectres or having him/her commited

also in ME2 shepard is working in the terminus systms..thats outside the council duristriction, not sure if they send spectres there or not but thats somthing to consider

now the Alliance...I don't know what the Alliance was doing or thourght about reapers, again, the collectors was a terminus systm issue, aslo perhaps it would be best for the Alliance not to piss off the council...just speculating there

anyway, my point is cerberus was gvivng shepard a ship and everything he/she needed, the amount of redtape and sutff he/she would have had to go through to get council/alliance help would have wasted valuable time (I mean for crying out loud in ME3 the comander is locked in a room for 6 months for being a bad boy/girl)...colonies were getting abducted and a little bad PR wasnt going to stop comander shepard

I mean did you play ME2?

[quote/]The problem with the giant space terminator baby is it is stupid. Really stupid. No, that's too intelligent, it's way dumber than even that.

[Ever play Alan Wake? He makes a comment once, in-between some really gawd-awful prose, and some narration that sounds like Raphael Sabarge just downed a gallon of Valium, he blithers that a story must have consistency. You can't end your story by saying "and then a walrus, and they all lived happily ever after." But, that is, in a nutshell exactly how Mass Effect 2 ends. And then a space terminator walrus baby of stupid.

The problem with the Reaper Baby isn't even that it's stupid. As you said, it's not too irredeemably stupid on it's face. The problem is, it is fairly stupid and comes out of nowhere, with no explanation. It's a sloppy form of deus ex machina, that Tropes dubs the Space Flea from Nowhere, if I remember correctly. In other words, bad writing. [/quote]

I thourght it was suposed to be a surprise/twist....."what are they doing with human juice?"..SURPRIZE human reaper, I dont see any issue with how its set up, I would have thourght the main issue was with is apearance/execution

and I don't think that counts as deus ex machina the reapinator doesnt come in out of nowhere to rescue or solves or our heros problems, its just there to be destroyed, that whole last act was about "go in, destroy collectors" thats what happned, the Reapinator does not help them in anyway

(better example of deus ex machina would be the cuicible wouldnt it? even though it is introduced at the start of ME3....and I even think a better example of giant space flea from nowhere would be the yahg in lair of the shadow broker...I think they obviously wanted to have a big cool monster for you to fight, so they add this species in and make up some thing on how they are restricted to their home planet (in fact the story there seems like anotehr example of the council retardedness) anyway the fact that the yahg are nevermentioned before is kind of noticable)


[quote/] The problem with the Starchild is this, it wasn't written by their writers. All the incoherent rambling bullshit that follows stems from this single issue. Hudson wrote it. Hudson, as we have learned, cannot write his way out of a paper bag. Hudson chucks everything off the deep end to create, what he believes is a genuinely intelligent thought provoking piece of art. Sort of like every David Lynch fanfic writer out there (honestly, I hope such a thing doesn't exist, but this is the internet, it must).[/quote]

the starchild seauquence is stupid..no one is denying that

however...I actually don't have a problem with the starchild itself, I'm not 100% sure what the catalyst is, but ok I can get the Idea that this super AI thing "scans" shepards mind and takes the form of the thing thats been haunting him/her since earth

what I do take issue with (as peopel have said a million times) is the fact that the starchild is obviously bullshting shepard and he/she eats that up no questions...completly uncharachterstic...and everthing that follows after shepard makes his/her choice



[quote/] Oddly enough, no. Scientific accuracy in the background I could care less about. That's just part of the setting, and like it or not, part of the general conceit of some flavors of Science Fiction, Mass Effect included.

The problem is when those scientific details are plot points. Sit on this one and think for a while, see if it comes to you.
.[/quote]

the Cruicible?....the whole thing with the ending? in that if you know about the world then you know how truly fucked everyone is after whatever choice you made?(that is if youre taking the ending at face value) Im not sure what you mean

 

[Vault101]

[
I thourght it was suposed to be a surprise/twist....."what are they doing with human juice?"..SURPRIZE human reaper, I dont see any issue with how its set up, I would have thourght the main issue was with is apearance/execution

Well if by appearance you mean that it didn't look anything at all like what the other Reapers looked like. I mean I guess the general idea of using it to create a new Reaper is okay, but there was nothing at all leading up to the form it had. And imagining it flying in space... Reapers are all cuttlefish, they don't look like their previous species... Unless they were all harvested from cuttlefish...

Other than that, totally agree with you.

what I ment was some people might have thourght it looked "silly" its skeletal because obviously they are building this thing from the group up..its far from finished

in fact the original design was alot more fetus like..that would have been cool

 

[Vault101]

Though admittedly, if it looked like a fetus and was pulled off well that might be creepy enough that I wouldn't care.

huh...now that I didn't know

another thing that interested me was Aria having the Assari councillor "in her favor"

now why was that?...do they personally go back some time? is this some assari thing of "we look after our own" does the assari government get some kind of benefit from Omega so they would want to keep Aria happy? sounds like an interestign story

 

[Starke]

Okay, here's some meat for thought, when you played Mass Effect 2, why didn't you tell the Vermire survivor you weren't working for Cerberus? For that matter, why are you working for Cerberus? You can swing by the council, and say "Hi." Why didn't you, while you were there, say "fuck Cerberus, I want to work for you guys again"?

shepard had the illusives mans backing (money rescources, people) weather that counts as "working for" or not is up to how you see it.What WAS clear was that shepard had connections to cerberus, he/she couln't have just outright denied that to the virmire survivor, doing that would have confirmed what ashley/Kaiden were rambling on about

shepard actually did pretty much say that it was like he/she had "joined" cerberus out of belivng in their "cause" it was out of nessecity, and that Kaiden/ash should know that Shepard would never join a terrorist group without and damn good reason...and even they would never belive their bullshit

Right, so we're going to have to take a step back now. Go look up the word "rhetoric", it's your vocabulary word of the day. Then look up the phrase "rhetorical question".

You've done that? No? Then do it, I'll wait.

...

...

Back? Okay, so, what was the original question I asked? Oh, right, why can't you sign back on with the council after coming back from Cerberus filling you with half a Terminator? Because shitty writing and a plot that is so glued to the rails it doesn't move the entire game.

Kaiden/ash did overeact, which sucked. you would think after all you've been through with those charachters...however you could argue that Kaiden/ash are VERY loyal to the Alliance...to see somone they care about run off and join "the enemy" would be a real shock, also if they did come back from the dead then (as kaiden kind of said) who's to say its really shepard? or that shepard isnt being controlled be cerberus (I actually think "killing" shepard was a bit extreme)

Killing Shepard at the beginning of 2 is a flat out pacing failure. The time jump is fine, the ship being destroyed is fine, but starting 2 off by killing Shepard basically negates the value of the "suicide mission" at the end, we've already seen that death is irrelevant, and it makes the end of 3 utterly meaningless because we've already killed off and resurrected Shepard once, and if leaks are to be believed, will do so again.

second point

[i/]ah yes.."reapers"...we have dismissed that claim[/i] <- thats pretty much why, the council doesn't want to know about it, as far as they concerned the Geth are the problem (because as they said, theres no evidence to suggest otherwise..and giant space "reapers" thats too far fetched), I think even in the opening scene Miranda comments on how the council "sent comander shepard after Geth". I guess you could say that makes the council really really strupid..but then again thease days you have climate change skeptics, and from their perspective why WOULD it be giant space mosnters? as opoased to the geth?

I'm sorry, you seem to have a hard time, "ah yes, logic, you have dismissed that claim", but let's try to stay in the same zip code as the issue.

The question was, why not sign on with the Council again. The Council doesn't have a huge issue with Shepard's obsession with the reapers, or they would have benched him a long time ago, because he gets results. They don't have a problem with him chasing after the colony abductions. The colony abductions have nothing to do with Shepard's belief in the reapers. Just like the Turian Councilor's comment in ME2 has nothing to do with his belief that the reapers exist at the end of ME1.

This is, by the way a hallmark of really fuck-awful writing: Characters randomly changing what they know/believe to suit the plot.

Characters or plot elements who change randomly in ways that cannot be accounted for by the setting Mass Effect: Shepard (Cerberus), Kaiden/Ashley (Shepard), Udina (Cerberus), Turian Councilor (Reapers), assari (sex, biology, genetics), Genophage, Quantum Entanglement Communications, geth, quarian (history & biology), Joker (medical condition), Tali, Liara, Timmy, Jack (though, technically this is mostly internally in ME2), Mass Relays (damage capacity), and so on.

Now had Shepard not died, I don't really know what assignments the council would have sent him/her on...but if it was anything Reaper related I doubt they would have indulged shepards "ideas"....I don't know how much input the council has in SPECTRE missions, so mabye shepard could have gone off on his/her own to invesitgate reaper related stuff (as in Collectors) however if you have a rouge spectre running around chasing bogey men....mabye they would have even shut shepard up themselves...like kicking him/her out of the spectres or having him/her commited

And the relevance to your own daydreaming to what pops up in the actual text of the games? Oh, yes, none at all. Please, continue to pretend it's relevant, and I'll pretend to actually care about how you would have improved this pile of shit.

also in ME2 shepard is working in the terminus systms..thats outside the council duristriction, not sure if they send spectres there or not but thats somthing to consider

Except, they can and do. Also, it's "jurisdiction". One of those pesky things the Spectres tend to ignore.

now the Alliance...I don't know what the Alliance was doing or thourght about reapers, again, the collectors was a terminus systm issue, aslo perhaps it would be best for the Alliance not to piss off the council...just speculating there

And wrong. The Alliance was already investigating the colony attacks.

anyway, my point is cerberus was gvivng shepard a ship and everything he/she needed, the amount of redtape and sutff he/she would have had to go through to get council/alliance help would have wasted valuable time (I mean for crying out loud in ME3 the comander is locked in a room for 6 months for being a bad boy/girl)...colonies were getting abducted and a little bad PR wasnt going to stop comander shepard

I mean did you play ME2?

Yes, six or eight times. Did you ever play the first one?

Here's something you should consider. In the original game, Shepard ran into Cerberus in a couple mission strings, or dealt with the aftermath of their actions. Without fail, every single Cerberus mission involves Cerberus inflicting atrocities on civilians or Alliance personnel in the name of "progress". Moreover if the player takes the default backgrounds, they get Sole Survivor, where Shepard was victimized by Cerberus as well.

Something which might be somewhat relevant when Timmy pops up and says "I'm going to make you an offer you can't refuse, because I bribed the writers."

[quote/]The problem with the giant space terminator baby is it is stupid. Really stupid. No, that's too intelligent, it's way dumber than even that.

Ever play Alan Wake? He makes a comment once, in-between some really gawd-awful prose, and some narration that sounds like Raphael Sabarge just downed a gallon of Valium, he blithers that a story must have consistency. You can't end your story by saying "and then a walrus, and they all lived happily ever after." But, that is, in a nutshell exactly how Mass Effect 2 ends. And then a space terminator walrus baby of stupid.

The problem with the Reaper Baby isn't even that it's stupid. As you said, it's not too irredeemably stupid on it's face. The problem is, it is fairly stupid and comes out of nowhere, with no explanation. It's a sloppy form of deus ex machina, that Tropes dubs the Space Flea from Nowhere, if I remember correctly. In other words, bad writing.

I thourght it was suposed to be a surprise/twist....."what are they doing with human juice?"..SURPRIZE human reaper, I dont see any issue with how its set up, I would have thourght the main issue was with is apearance/execution [/quote]

No, the main issue with the Giant Space Terminator Baby is that it is stupid. Surprise only gets you so far. If they'd been turning the colonists into a new strand of collector, that would have been a surprise, suitably horrifying, and in the tone for the game. That they had to go back and retcon the reapers into cybernetic organisms instead of "inorganic" was a mistake, compounded by the sheer stupidity of fighting something that looks that damn stupid.

and I don't think that counts as deus ex machina the reapinator doesnt come in out of nowhere to rescue or solves or our heros problems, its just there to be destroyed, that whole last act was about "go in, destroy collectors" thats what happned, the Reapinator does not help them in anyway

Yes, oddly enough I do understand some Greek, and do know what the term means. I even know how to pronounce it, "DAI-us", not "duce". In this case the problem "the machine god on a string solves" is not the characters' but the writers'. In point of fact, the term is certainly applicable simply because the image in question is far too damn close to the original application of the term.

(better example of deus ex machina would be the cuicible wouldnt it? even though it is introduced at the start of ME3....and I even think a better example of giant space flea from nowhere would be the yahg in lair of the shadow broker...I think they obviously wanted to have a big cool monster for you to fight, so they add this species in and make up some thing on how they are restricted to their home planet (in fact the story there seems like anotehr example of the council retardedness) anyway the fact that the yahg are nevermentioned before is kind of noticable)

The Shadow Broker is another example of that trope.

[quote/] The problem with the Starchild is this, it wasn't written by their writers. All the incoherent rambling bullshit that follows stems from this single issue. Hudson wrote it. Hudson, as we have learned, cannot write his way out of a paper bag. Hudson chucks everything off the deep end to create, what he believes is a genuinely intelligent thought provoking piece of art. Sort of like every David Lynch fanfic writer out there (honestly, I hope such a thing doesn't exist, but this is the internet, it must).

the starchild seauquence is stupid..no one is denying that

however...I actually don't have a problem with the starchild itself, I'm not 100% sure what the catalyst is, but ok I can get the Idea that this super AI thing "scans" shepards mind and takes the form of the thing thats been haunting him/her since earth

what I do take issue with (as peopel have said a million times) is the fact that the starchild is obviously bullshting shepard and he/she eats that up no questions...completly uncharachterstic...and everthing that follows after shepard makes his/her choice [/quote]

"Why hello Timmy, you want me to go jump down that well over there? Okay."

[quote/] Oddly enough, no. Scientific accuracy in the background I could care less about. That's just part of the setting, and like it or not, part of the general conceit of some flavors of Science Fiction, Mass Effect included.

The problem is when those scientific details are plot points. Sit on this one and think for a while, see if it comes to you.
.

the Cruicible?....the whole thing with the ending? in that if you know about the world then you know how truly fucked everyone is after whatever choice you made?(that is if youre taking the ending at face value) Im not sure what you mean[/quote]No, you're thinking ME3, go back and think about ME2, when it hits, you'll shit bricks... though, I'm not holding out a lot of hope on that front.

 

[Vault101]

snip.

forgive me if it wasnt 100% clear that question was rhetorical...

ok, so you don't like the fact shepard has to work with cerberus...I don't know what to say about that, I explained why shepard might have to work with cerberus and I stand by that. I don't think its "rail-roading" anymore than shepard not being able to turn into a psycho terrorist in ME1,

mabye shepard was more inclined to work for cerberus because as extreme as the illusive man was..he belived in the reapers, and seemed willing to give shepard whatever he/she needed, collectors is one thing, but I doubt the council was willing to listen about anything concerning reapers

while I think killing shepard was a bit much (there were better ways to get him/her out of the action for a while) I don't think it completly "made death meaningless" shepard coming back from the dead was due to a very lucky and specific series of events (and a fuck-ton of money/rescources) you smply couldnt do that to every person who dies in the suicide mission or in combat...even if you could find their body and it was salvagable

also I don't know if thease so called "leaks" are for the extended cut or whatever but please keep spoilers in mind,

[quote/]And the relevance to your own daydreaming to what pops up in the actual text of the games? Oh, yes, none at all. Please, continue to pretend it's relevant, and I'll pretend to actually care about how you would have improved this pile of shit. [/quote]

It was just speculation, I don't know how things would have turned out had shepard not died, it if shepard didn't work for cerberus...theres no need to be like that

[quote/]No, the main issue with the Giant Space Terminator Baby is that it is stupid. Surprise only gets you so far. If they'd been turning the colonists into a new strand of collector, that would have been a surprise, suitably horrifying, and in the tone for the game. That they had to go back and retcon the reapers into cybernetic organisms instead of "inorganic" was a mistake, compounded by the sheer stupidity of fighting something that looks that damn stupid. [/quote]

Im not entirly sure what "in-organic" is but I thourght reapers were always some "organic-synthetic" hybrid

[quote/] Yes, oddly enough I do understand some Greek, and do know what the term means. I even know how to pronounce it, "DAI-us", not "duce". In this case the problem "the machine god on a string solves" is not the characters' but the writers'. In point of fact, the term is certainly applicable simply because the image in question is far too damn close to the original application of the term. [/quote]

did I accidently type it as "duce"? did I in anyway indicate that I didn't know how to pronounce it? because hey! I knew how to pronounce it too! arnt we clever?


[quote/] No, you're thinking ME3, go back and think about ME2, when it hits, you'll shit bricks... though, I'm not holding out a lot of hope on that front. [/quote]

sorry, I have no Idea what youre talking about, youre going to have to tell me

EDIT; wait...was it the original intended ending involving Dark matter destroying the universe or somthing?

 

[GoGoFrenzy]

They already said they're not changing the ending so why bother? They already ruined the series.

 

[Starke]

snip.

forgive me if it wasnt 100% clear that question was rhetorical...

ok, so you don't like the fact shepard has to work with cerberus...I don't know what to say about that, I explained why shepard might have to work with cerberus and I stand by that. I don't think its "rail-roading" anymore than shepard not being able to turn into a psycho terrorist in ME1,

Then here are some questions, see if this makes sense to you:

1) Is Shepard trying to save the Galaxy? Yes/No

2) Does Paragon Shepard have some kind of (meat headed) integrity in the first game? Yes/No

3) Is Renegade Shepard simply an evil psychopath for the lulz or are they a principled operative with few scruples? Lulz/Principled

If you answered 2 with No, then go back and play the game again. If you answered 3 with Lulz, you're wrong, please replay the game and see if you can process the information in front of you.

The problem is, neither character, nor any point on the spectrum in between these points is inclined to sign on with a terrorist organization.

mabye shepard was more inclined to work for cerberus because as extreme as the illusive man was..he belived in the reapers, and seemed willing to give shepard whatever he/she needed, collectors is one thing, but I doubt the council was willing to listen about anything concerning reapers

Maybe, just maybe, Shepard was "forced" to work with Cerberus because the player doesn't get an alternate option. Just a thought. Speculating on something in universe that is absent from the text of the game itself is irrelevant and distracting.

while I think killing shepard was a bit much (there were better ways to get him/her out of the action for a while) I don't think it completly "made death meaningless" shepard coming back from the dead was due to a very lucky and specific series of events (and a fuck-ton of money/rescources) you smply couldnt do that to every person who dies in the suicide mission or in combat...even if you could find their body and it was salvagable

also I don't know if thease so called "leaks" are for the extended cut or whatever but please keep spoilers in mind,

No, they're for Mass Shift, and Terminator (the working title for the next DLC). Enjoy.

[quote/]And the relevance to your own daydreaming to what pops up in the actual text of the games? Oh, yes, none at all. Please, continue to pretend it's relevant, and I'll pretend to actually care about how you would have improved this pile of shit.

It was just speculation, I don't know how things would have turned out had shepard not died, it if shepard didn't work for cerberus...theres no need to be like that[/quote]

And this is your problem, truly your problem. You aren't looking at the games. I mean, really, you're not. You're making excuses for them. You're saying "what if", but you're not looking at the works themselves, you're reinventing them in your head into something better.

The fact of the matter is, yes, I've played through every game multiple times (not counting the mobile games), I have a working knowledge of most of the non-game content, which is an indictment of shitty writing for another day. Short answer, you're not going to tell me something about the setting I don't already know.

I'm telling you what the problems with the setting is, and you're having to go, "but in my dreams it's amazing". Tough shit, we're not in your head, we're dealing with the games as they exist.

[quote/]No, the main issue with the Giant Space Terminator Baby is that it is stupid. Surprise only gets you so far. If they'd been turning the colonists into a new strand of collector, that would have been a surprise, suitably horrifying, and in the tone for the game. That they had to go back and retcon the reapers into cybernetic organisms instead of "inorganic" was a mistake, compounded by the sheer stupidity of fighting something that looks that damn stupid.

Im not entirly sure what "in-organic" is but I thourght reapers were always some "organic-synthetic" hybrid [/quote]

Okay, new vocab word: go look up "inorganic".

And while we're on the subject Sovereign flat out states he is not a cybernetic organism, he repeatedly uses the term synthetic, as does the rest of the setting, for that matter. The reapers were retconned into being organic after the original game, and it flat out contradicts numerous statements made in the original game.

[quote/] Yes, oddly enough I do understand some Greek, and do know what the term means. I even know how to pronounce it, "DAI-us", not "duce". In this case the problem "the machine god on a string solves" is not the characters' but the writers'. In point of fact, the term is certainly applicable simply because the image in question is far too damn close to the original application of the term.

did I accidently type it as "duce"? did I in anyway indicate that I didn't know how to pronounce it? because hey! I knew how to pronounce it too! arnt we clever? [/quote]I've seen no evidence to support that theory yet.

[quote/] No, you're thinking ME3, go back and think about ME2, when it hits, you'll shit bricks... though, I'm not holding out a lot of hope on that front.

sorry, I have no Idea what youre talking about, youre going to have to tell me[/quote]If you're clever, think about it a bit longer and harder, something should break. Hopefully not your brain, but something will.

 

[Starke]

They already said they're not changing the ending so why bother? They already ruined the series.

Well, they've said they'll make it worse... Honestly, between ME3 and TOR, I'm not sure how much gas is left in the old gal. ME3 lost them a lot of their standard bearers and TOR seems to have lost a lot of money, if the free weekends and their investor report are any indication.

EDIT: Come to think of it, the double XP weekends and free multiplayer DLC for ME3 aren't exactly good signs either.

 

[Vault101]

3) Is Renegade Shepard simply an evil psychopath for the lulz or are they a principled operative with few scruples? Lulz/Principled

If you answered 2 with No, then go back and play the game again. If you answered 3 with Lulz, you're wrong, please replay the game and see if you can process the information in front of you.

The problem is, neither character, nor any point on the spectrum in between these points is inclined to sign on with a terrorist organization.

I havnt actually played renegade shepard so I don't know details..I [i/]think[/i] the Idea was to be (like you said) a "get it done at any costs" type charachter

however I think that kind of fell flat, from what I hear renegade shepard just comes across as a jerkass, youd think that at least a few things would work out for the better if you chose "renegade" but often it doesnt ...everything turns out better with Paragon, much like alot of other games that try and give you "good/evil" the evil option is often the most stupid

like I said, for whatever reason in the story they wanted shepard to go with cerberus,and ONLY as long as the arrangment was beneficial..the only thing lost is shepards reputation...its not like shepard was going to turn around and bomb a colony because the illusive man said so

also I dont know but can't renegade say some vaugly "anti-alien" things at some points?

[quote/]Maybe, just maybe, Shepard was "forced" to work with Cerberus because the player doesn't get an alternate option. Just a thought. Speculating on something in universe that is absent from the text of the game itself is irrelevant and distracting [/quote] of coarse the player didnt get an alternitive option, ME isnt the type of game that gives you a multitude of options like Fallout NV...your arguang weather or not it was retarted for shepard to have to work for cerberus in the first place...

[quote/]I've seen no evidence to support that theory yet. [/quote]

edivence of what? evidence that I already knew how to pronounce it? its pronounciation was irrelevent, yet you felt the need to point it out to me


[quote/]If you're clever, think about it a bit longer and harder, something should break. Hopefully not your brain, but something will [/quote]

unless its what I editied into my post (the original cut ending involving dark matter) then no..I don't know

I'm a dumbass, please enlighten me

 

[Scars Unseen]

Here's my candidate for an epilogue to Mass Effect 3. I think it fits the story about as well as the original ending, but it does kind of rely on you having the Rachni as an asset:

Rachni Engineer 1: Did you see that light in the sky?

Rachni Engineer 2: I did. Wasn't that the Victory Fireworks device we installed on the Crucible?

Rachni Engineer 1: The one we installed as a joke? No one was supposed to activate that.

Rachni Engineer 2: Someone did.

Rachni Engineer 1: Apparently. I thought the Pshycoadaptive VI was supposed to warn against that sort of thing.

Rachni Engineer 2: It is. It takes a form familiar to the user and tells him to just use voice commands to activate the Catalyst. After that it... oh wait.

Rachni Engineer 1: What is it?

Rachni Engineer 2: This is embarassing.

Rachni Engineer 1: Come on, tell me.

Rachni Engineer 2: Remember when we were trying to understand the human concept of irony on the extranet?

Rachni Engineer 1: I do. I'm not sure that even humans understand it though.

Rachni Engineer 2: Well I think they use it for humor, so I tried adding it to the VI's behavior pattern to enhance the joke.

Rachni Engineer 1: So the VI tells the user to puposefully activate the Victory Fireworks device?

Rachni Engineer 2: Yes.

Rachni Engineer 1: Maybe the human didn't understand it was a joke.

Rachni Engineer 2: Impossible. I even made the VI sing a song of laughter after each response.

Rachni Engineer 1: Can human ears even hear our songs?

Rachni Engineer 2: You know, I never even considered that.

Rachni Engineer 1: So is the human dead?

Rachni Engineer 2: Probably. All of the Victory Fireworks panels were designed to be lethal.

Rachni Engineer 1: ...

Rachni Engineer 2: ...

Rachni Engineer 1: That is kind of funny.

Rachni Engineer 2: *sings a song of laughter*

 

[TheCaptain]

While I appreciate the gesture, I don't think this'll "set things right".

The current ME3 ending is a big pile of solid waste excrement, and no amount of "extra cutscenes" will fix that. While I appreciate the gesture, I feel that the ending is just so badly written that only a complete reqrite would do the trilogy justice.

That said, every developer has the right to make a bad game (or screw up part of a very good game). But then, the ME3 ending is also very badly made. The presentation feels rushed, incomplete, lazy. If the Extended Cut can fix the latter part, they just screwed up. I don't like it, but it happens.

So yeah, I'm kinda looking forward to it, and it'll probably get me from "gravely disappointed" to "still unsatisfied". But I doubt I'll be giving standing ovations.

 

[Starke]

No, they aren't inclined to side with one, but circumstances simply made it the best way to go towards their goal. Losing the ship and any other resources that the Illusive Man had when no one else would be likely to take the Collectors quite as seriously as he was wouldn't be very helpful, to say the least.

Except, as we know from the second game, the collectors were being taken very seriously by some people in the Alliance. They just didn't have enough information yet to go after them.

Especially when the attacks on the human colonies seemed to be happening at a decent pace. The Council would likely not be interested.

No, The Council doesn't give a shit, either before or after. Though, if this was justification for tossing in with terrorists, Shepard should have been signing on with Timmy way back in the first game. When he actually had no standing with the Council, the Alliance, and lacked any resources, and had only personal exposure to Saren and his master plan.

They didn't care much about what happened to Eden Prime. So providing the level of resources needed would be unlikely. Alliance? Shepard lacks special authority with them, and no doubt they'd wouldn't be ready to immediately throw Shepard back into the fight after supposedly dying and being resurrected by a terrorist organization.

The problem is of course, that the Alliance already was investigating the colony attacks. If I recall correctly, it's even hinted that Cerberus has actually undermined the Alliance investigation at previous sites.

Additionally, Shepard does have special standing in the Alliance, even before the events of the first game. Remember, Shepard was an N7 operative before the first game began. It doesn't lend them special autonomy, but that autonomy isn't needed to carry out investigations.

Your complaint is that it doesn't fit Shepard's personality to work with them, yes? She provided an explanation for how it fits. If all you can do is repeat your idea that it is simply forced(which duh the story is trying to go along those lines) well that's not much of an argument for how it fails to fit.

The player is forced to side with Cerberus through the events of ME2, even though, and I mean this, even though there is literally no narrative reason Shepard couldn't ditch Cerberus and make nice to the Alliance or Council again, more likely the Council, the first chance they get.

The best I can give you on that is that it's plausible Shepard would take the Normandy 2 and book. There isn't even, really, a time constraint issue, as the set time frame for ME2 covers an entire year, (with some of the DLC scattered over an additional year beyond that). By the time you finish Lair of the Shadowbroker (canonically) it's been between one and a half to two years since Shepard woke up in the tutorial. Not exactly the definition of, "I can't turn myself in because they'd lock me up, and I need to save the world right now."

Looking over the whole conversation, following that particular point, you've really given no real indication what you're talking about.

No, you're right, here's a hint: diversity.

Now I know in you're head you're oh so great and have a clear idea of what you're talking about, but you've been pretty terrible at communicating it.

No, I've made no effort to communicate it, partially because Vault is annoying me.

So far the clue is that it is a part where the science is bad and it is a plot point somewhere in the series. You can just say what it is instead of not saying it for the purposes of ego masturbation.

It's not masturbatory, to be sure. Vault is evoking some really... pronounced fanwank logic, and wrapping it in an air of superiority, which is, as I said, annoying me.

 

[Starke]

3) Is Renegade Shepard simply an evil psychopath for the lulz or are they a principled operative with few scruples? Lulz/Principled

If you answered 2 with No, then go back and play the game again. If you answered 3 with Lulz, you're wrong, please replay the game and see if you can process the information in front of you.

The problem is, neither character, nor any point on the spectrum in between these points is inclined to sign on with a terrorist organization.

I havnt actually played renegade shepard so I don't know details..I [i/]think[/i] the Idea was to be (like you said) a "get it done at any costs" type charachter

however I think that kind of fell flat, from what I hear renegade shepard just comes across as a jerkass, youd think that at least a few things would work out for the better if you chose "renegade" but often it doesnt ...everything turns out better with Paragon, much like alot of other games that try and give you "good/evil" the evil option is often the most stupid

like I said, for whatever reason in the story they wanted shepard to go with cerberus,and ONLY as long as the arrangment was beneficial..the only thing lost is shepards reputation...its not like shepard was going to turn around and bomb a colony because the illusive man said so

also I dont know but can't renegade say some vaugly "anti-alien" things at some points?

Renegade can, at random iterations spout off some bits of xenophobia in the first game. Going back to, their writing sucks, part of the problem with Renegade Shepard is the character waffles. At varying times, Renegade Shepard in ME1 is: Jack Bauer in Space, a member of Nightwatch (from B5, think Nazi secret police), a psychotic trolling Jackass, someone who follows military protocol, and on one or two occasions purple Hawke. There is, with very few exceptions, no warning as to which character one will get at any given moment. Renegade responses can provoke anything from a stern dressing down to a summary execution with little to no clue on the dialog wheel which action will result.

[quote/]Maybe, just maybe, Shepard was "forced" to work with Cerberus because the player doesn't get an alternate option. Just a thought. Speculating on something in universe that is absent from the text of the game itself is irrelevant and distracting

of coarse the player didnt get an alternitive option, ME isnt the type of game that gives you a multitude of options like Fallout NV...your arguang weather or not it was retarted for shepard to have to work for cerberus in the first place...[/quote]

No, I'm arguing whether or not it is in character for Shepard to work with Cerberus. Note what you just said: Mass Effect isn't the type of game that gives you a multitude of options, like New Vegas? You're right.

But that cuts both ways, because at the same time, we really do not control who Shepard is, we can point them along several paths, but the character already exists. Working with Cerberus isn't retarded, it is however egregiously out of character. Something that isn't an issue when, for example, the Courier sigs on with The Legion.

[quote/]I've seen no evidence to support that theory yet.

edivence of what? evidence that I already knew how to pronounce it? its pronounciation was irrelevent, yet you felt the need to point it out to me[/quote]Evidence of clever, m'boy. Evidence of clever.

[quote/]If you're clever, think about it a bit longer and harder, something should break. Hopefully not your brain, but something will

unless its what I editied into my post (the original cut ending involving dark matter) then no..I don't know

I'm a dumbass, please enlighten me[/quote]Why did the collectors target humans?

The second game goes off on this idea that humans are special unique snowflakes. That, what makes us unique in the galaxy is our diversity...

Okay, that much is fine. Well, to a point. It is very difficult to fully articulate the complexities of an entire multicultural interstellar civilization in easy bite sized chunks that a consumer can understand and digest. It's part of why science fiction as a whole gravitates towards creating one note civilizations.

Examples: Klingons are all defined by their adherence to a Bushido code of honor, or by their refusal to accept it. The Minbari are defined by their cast structure and rigid society. Wookies are defined by their willingness to rip your arms out of your sockets, and a strange obsession with tree houses.

Ironically, Mass Effect, in parts, does a better job than most, breaking up the asari a bit. Meanwhile the turians, krogan, quarians, vorcha, and salarians tend to slip right back into form, but there is that.

On the other hand, if you talk about Chinese, European, African, the consumer immediately knows what you're talking about. You can easily have humans representing multiple ethnic or cultural traditions, and you never need to worry about the player getting confused as to what makes this character different from that one, or what humans are, on the grand scale of things. It's a familiar framework.

The problem is what they ascribe that diversity to, in Mass Effect...

 

[Vault101]

No, I've made no effort to communicate it, partially because Vault is annoying me.

you and me both
[quote/] Vault is evoking some really... pronounced fanwank logic, and wrapping it in an air of superiority, which is, as I said, annoying me.[/quote]

wha....WHAT?

oh...ok then

I'll try and argue the main point, but for a second I want to point somthing out

now you must have serious misinterpreted my "air of superiority" seriously I have no Idea where that came from

now forgive me If Im misenterpreting you, but you have been condecending and obtuse this enitre time. You can;t jsut say "somthing sucks" and expect that to be explanation enough, you have to explain [i/]why[/i]


and you failed to do that first time around, in fact you pulled a "danm fanboys!" thing even before you ever bothered to explain why, I don't care how right or wrong or how much of a retarded fan-boy/girl you think I am, if youre not willing to explain your point then your just wasting both our time (you know..as far as internet arguing goes)

and air of superiority?







[spoiler/]

Okay, here's some meat for thought, when you played Mass Effect 2, why didn't you tell the Vermire survivor you weren't working for Cerberus? For that matter, why are you working for Cerberus? You can swing by the council, and say "Hi." Why didn't you, while you were there, say "fuck Cerberus, I want to work for you guys again"?

shepard had the illusives mans backing (money rescources, people) weather that counts as "working for" or not is up to how you see it.What WAS clear was that shepard had connections to cerberus, he/she couln't have just outright denied that to the virmire survivor, doing that would have confirmed what ashley/Kaiden were rambling on about

shepard actually did pretty much say that it was like he/she had "joined" cerberus out of belivng in their "cause" it was out of nessecity, and that Kaiden/ash should know that Shepard would never join a terrorist group without and damn good reason...and even they would never belive their bullshit

Right, so we're going to have to take a step back now. Go look up the word "rhetoric", it's your vocabulary word of the day. Then look up the phrase "rhetorical question".

You've done that? No? Then do it, I'll wait.

...

...

Back? Okay, so, what was the original question I asked? Oh, right, why can't you sign back on with the council after coming back from Cerberus filling you with half a Terminator? Because shitty writing and a plot that is so glued to the rails it doesn't move the entire game. [/spoiler]

please tell me how the flying fuck I was suposed to interperet that as anything OTHER than some "pretty obvious questions" regarding plot/charachters? (which I answered best I could based on the what I knew)

rhetorical or not it didnt explain your point, you just somhow expected me to be able to understand what you were geting at..which only would have happened if I shared the same veiwpoint

[spoiler/] [quote/] you're clever, think about it a bit longer and harder, something should break. Hopefully not your brain, but something will.

[quote/]And the relevance to your own daydreaming to what pops up in the actual text of the games? Oh, yes, none at all. Please, continue to pretend it's relevant, and I'll pretend to actually care about how you would have improved this pile of shit. [/quote]

[quote/]Yes, oddly enough I do understand some Greek, and do know what the term means. I even know how to pronounce it, "DAI-us", not "duce". [/quote] [/spoiler]

now tell me who as the air of superiority

my patience with this whole thing is growing thin, if youre unwilling to actually explain youre points, and I mean actually EXPLAIN rather than give obtuse hints and clues because obviously everyone thinks the same as you do then I'm done here

 

[Starke]

Vault is evoking some really... pronounced fanwank logic, and wrapping it in an air of superiority, which is, as I said, annoying me.

wha....WHAT?

oh...ok then

I'll try and argue the main point, but for a second I want to point somthing out

now you must have serious misinterpreted my "air of superiority" seriously I have no Idea where that came from

now forgive me If Im misenterpreting you, but you have been condecending and obtuse this enitre time. You can;t jsut say "somthing sucks" and expect that to be explanation enough, you have to explain [i/]why[/i]

The word you're looking for is "condescending", not "condecending". For that matter, "entire" not "enitre" and "misinterpreting" not "mesenterpreting". Also there's an "e" in "something".

If you'd like to adopt an air of superiority, it would help if you spellchecked your posts, even a little. Now anyone can make a typo, a little transposition or missed letter, but your posts have been filled with shoddy spelling.

And, yes, I'm having a little argument with my spellchecker at the moment, as to if "spellchecked" is a legitimate compound word. Which is nothing in comparison to the sloppy English you've been exhibiting.

If you'd like to convey a detailed intellectual debate, it would help you enormously to take the six seconds to find out, "goddamn, I should spellcheck this shit before I turn it loose."

and you failed to do that first time around, in fact you pulled a "danm fanboys!" thing even before you ever bothered to explain why, I don't care how right or wrong or how much of a retarded fan-boy/girl you think I am, if youre not willing to explain your point then your just wasting both our time (you know..as far as internet arguing goes)

No, the "damn fanboys thing" had to do with that entire bout of trying to spoon feed the plot of ME2 back to me in the assumption that it was somehow explain why Shepard was egregiously out of character.

and air of superiority?

Spoiler

Okay, here's some meat for thought, when you played Mass Effect 2, why didn't you tell the Vermire survivor you weren't working for Cerberus? For that matter, why are you working for Cerberus? You can swing by the council, and say "Hi." Why didn't you, while you were there, say "fuck Cerberus, I want to work for you guys again"?

shepard had the illusives mans backing (money rescources, people) weather that counts as "working for" or not is up to how you see it.What WAS clear was that shepard had connections to cerberus, he/she couln't have just outright denied that to the virmire survivor, doing that would have confirmed what ashley/Kaiden were rambling on about

shepard actually did pretty much say that it was like he/she had "joined" cerberus out of belivng in their "cause" it was out of nessecity, and that Kaiden/ash should know that Shepard would never join a terrorist group without and damn good reason...and even they would never belive their bullshit

Right, so we're going to have to take a step back now. Go look up the word "rhetoric", it's your vocabulary word of the day. Then look up the phrase "rhetorical question".

You've done that? No? Then do it, I'll wait.

...

...

Back? Okay, so, what was the original question I asked? Oh, right, why can't you sign back on with the council after coming back from Cerberus filling you with half a Terminator? Because shitty writing and a plot that is so glued to the rails it doesn't move the entire game.

please tell me how the flying fuck I was suposed to interperet that as anything OTHER than some "pretty obvious questions" regarding plot/charachters? (which I answered best I could based on the what I knew)

rhetorical or not it didnt explain your point, you just somhow expected me to be able to understand what you were geting at..which only would have happened if I shared the same veiwpoint

Well, screwing up the spoiler tags is definitely winning you points in this discussion.

But, if you don't understand, ask. Answering the wrong question only makes you look like a biased zealot to the cause. It undermines whatever you hoped you could say, and makes you come across as... shall we say, less than articulate.

[spoiler/] [quote/] you're clever, think about it a bit longer and harder, something should break. Hopefully not your brain, but something will.

[quote/]And the relevance to your own daydreaming to what pops up in the actual text of the games? Oh, yes, none at all. Please, continue to pretend it's relevant, and I'll pretend to actually care about how you would have improved this pile of shit. [/quote]

[quote/]Yes, oddly enough I do understand some Greek, and do know what the term means. I even know how to pronounce it, "DAI-us", not "duce". [/quote] [/spoiler]

now tell me who as the air of superiority [/quote]

Well, given that you felt the need to explain exactly what Deus Ex Machina is, on the assumption that I did not... Yeah, that would be you.

my patience with this whole thing is growing thin, if youre unwilling to actually explain youre points, and I mean actually EXPLAIN rather than give obtuse hints and clues because obviously everyone thinks the same as you do then I'm done here

I'll get back to it in a bit, right now I've got slightly more important things to deal with.

 

[Vault101]

If you'd like to adopt an air of superiority, it would help if you spellchecked your posts, even a little. Now anyone can make a typo, a little transposition or missed letter, but your posts have been filled with shoddy spelling.

but I'm NOT adpoting an air of superiority, thats simply how your reading the things I say

I'd say the same about you that is unless I'm reading you wrong, but never mind.

[quote/]No, the "damn fanboys thing" had to do with that entire bout of trying to spoon feed the plot of ME2 back to me in the assumption that it was somehow explain why Shepard was egregiously out of character. [/quote]

actually I was refering to the very first part of this argument, it started out

you: I think the writing is bad
me: I don't think it is
You: yeah it is...
me: no I really don't think so

[quote/]Well, screwing up the spoiler tags is definitely winning you points in this discussion. [/quote]


oh dear lord! I made a mistake with spoiler tags! obviously everything I say is wrong because only retarded fanboys would ever have the audacity to make a mistake with spoiler tags...
again I really feel like your nitpicking/making up stupid shit to try prove I'm some kind of idiot

my original point still stands....if you wanted to say "shepard working with cerberus is completley out of charachter and a result of bad writing for x reasons" you should have said that

instead you just asked a bunch of random questions, somwhow expecting me to "get" what you ment

[quote/]But, if you don't understand, ask. Answering the wrong question only makes you look like a biased zealot to the cause. It undermines whatever you hoped you could say, and makes you come across as... shall we say, less than articulate [/quote]

what?.....so all those times I asked what the fuck you were talking about in regards to the science/plot thing (as far as I understand now, somthing to do with diversity) and all you gave me was cryptic hints?.....what was that?

you think me answering those questions made me look like a "zealous fan" but your under the opinion that shepard working for cerberus was was retardedly out of characher...I am of the oposite opinion for those reasons

[quote/]Well, given that you felt the need to explain exactly what Deus Ex Machina is, on the assumption that I did not... Yeah, that would be you. [/quote]

I thourght it came across in my post that I wasnt 100% sure myself (obviously not), you aparently corrected that for me....however pointing out its pronounciation definetly seemed unessicary....but I guess it really doesnt matter how we are interpreting each others posts

[quote/]I'll get back to it in a bit, right now I've got slightly more important things to deal with. [/quote]

yes, like arguing over who has the air of supriority or spoiler/ tag mistakes