Poll: Your thoughts about the ME 3 ending extension.

[Mikeyfell]

Snip

Really now that I think about it, I don't think Shepard ever has the opportunity to start out a conversation pissed off and Renegade. I could be wrong, but I think every conversation in all 3 games starts with a bit of dialogue before you get to make your first conversation choice. That said, I won't deny that ME 3 had a significantly fewer amount of conversation choices than the other two.

But this kinda touches on a...I don't wanna call it "theory" but that seems to be the best choice of words. Anyways my "theory" on the mood of each game is that each one has a natural inclination towards either Paragon or Renegade.

ME 1: Paragon. You're the first human Specter, reminded by numerous people that all eyes are on you to see how you do. It's a big step up for Humanity, and you're pressured to be a shining example of the best that Humanity has to offer. That said, you can still make the choice to be a hardcore militaristic "job done at any cost" Renegade, just saying the game seems to want you to be Paragon.

ME 2: Renegade. Believed to be dead, the rest of the galaxy moves on for two years while you're being rebuilt. When you return, you're working for Cerberus, a known terrorist/extremist faction that is enemies with pretty much all known Citadel races. Your superiors don't trust you (except Anderson gives you peripheral support, saying he believes your intentions are still trustworthy), the Council wants nothing to do with you, and as such you've more or less officially and completely "gone rogue", doing whatever it takes to stop the Collectors. TIM sure as hell doesn't care WHAT you do so long as your actions fulfill his desires, and as such there's nothing holding Shepard back or giving him incentive to "obey the rules". Sure you can play through while maintaining your Paragon "honor", but the dark mood of the 2nd game - and the fact that you're working for Cerberus - makes the game feel like it wants you to be Renegade.

ME 3: Paragon. I say this game leans more Paragon because you're main mission is to gather allies to help fight the Reapers. The best way to do this (obviously) is by being a Peace Maker and uniting forces that many believed could never be united. Again, you can take the other route of "Ruthless Calculus" and start weighing your options (such as a massive boost from Krogan Soldiers vs gaining the Salarian scientists and fleet), but that doesn't create a truly united front. As the only way you can create such unity is with Paragon outcomes, it seems like ME 3 wants you to be Paragon again.

Each of those points made in a vacuum holds up, but if you think about Mass Effect as 3 parts of one whole it sort of breaks down.

Consider some Paragon choices you make in ME 1 and how they effect ME 3
Saving the Rachnai Queen = She gets re-indoctrinated, it costs you Arlak Company to save her.
Saving the Council = They still don't trust you until you save them a second time
Making Anderson a Councilor = he's magically not on the council in ME 3 Udina orchestrates a coup.

and some Renegade decisions in ME 2
Being "nice" to the Illusive Man = He still turns on you
Turning down Spectre status = The council gives it right back to you.
Destroying the Genophage Data = Eve dies
Destroying the Heretics = actually works out pretty well for everybody.

Edit: Oh, and blowing up the Heretics isn't the only factor between being able to make piece between the Quarians and Geth. I'm on Playthrough 7 of ME 3 (my Insanity run) and I've been able to unite them on every playthrough (despite having a general mix of decisions regarding the Quarians and Geth). The only reason I know about the Legion death scene is because on one playthrough I made it my "odd ball" run, never picking any of the Red/Blue conversation options, and always picking an option that I normally wouldn't just so I could see what happens.

Really? Even if you rewrote the Heretics? So is it just if Tali and Legion both survive the suicide mission?

 

[Mikeyfell]

You misunderstand what I was trying to say, I can't understand the DEGREE to which some people hate some characters, to the point where you try to off them in game despite their deaths being easily avoidable. They're supposed to be on your side and you intentionally kill them because you don't like them, despite all of them going through fair amounts of character development (minus Zaeed) Maybe I'm a wuss when it comes to playing video games, but I can never bring myself to intentionally harm my allies. It's something I would expect from a bad fan fic.

I get what you're saying if we were talking about a different game like Skyrim, where their personalities don't matter so much. But this is Bioware we're talking about where writing is the reason you play the game. When all the characters have deep and varied personalities not feeling anything towards them is weird.

Personally I don't make a distinction between a fictional character and a real person (Read into that what you will) Watching a how fictional character deals with a fictional situation gives me the exact same information about them that watching a real person deal with a real situation does (Depending on how good the writing is)

Maybe you can detach your self from fictional stories, but that seems like it would make them harder to enjoy.

 

[RJ 17]

Really? Even if you rewrote the Heretics? So is it just if Tali and Legion both survive the suicide mission?

I'm not certain if that's the ONLY factor, but it certainly adds to it. I'm also pretty certain that you have to resolve their argument in ME 2 without picking sides (so a red or blue conversation choice). I'd also imagine it's important that you save the admiral that's stranded rather than going after his crew like he asks.

Now I don't think it matters whether or not you told them to go to war at the end of Tali's loyalty mission. As far as Rewriting vs Destroying, that decision effects the strength of the Quarian fleet vs the Geth fleet. Rewrite = Stronger Geth fleet than Quarians, Destroy = stronger Quarian fleet than Geth. So ideally if you're picking sides, you pick the side you gave the advantage to. If you're making peace, they essentially balance out and compensate.

 

[Mikeyfell]

Really? Even if you rewrote the Heretics? So is it just if Tali and Legion both survive the suicide mission?

I'm not certain if that's the ONLY factor, but it certainly adds to it. I'm also pretty certain that you have to resolve their argument in ME 2 without picking sides (so a red or blue conversation choice). I'd also imagine it's important that you save the admiral that's stranded rather than going after his crew like he asks.

Now I don't think it matters whether or not you told them to go to war at the end of Tali's loyalty mission. As far as Rewriting vs Destroying, that decision effects the strength of the Quarian fleet vs the Geth fleet. Rewrite = Stronger Geth fleet than Quarians, Destroy = stronger Quarian fleet than Geth. So ideally if you're picking sides, you pick the side you gave the advantage to. If you're making peace, they essentially balance out and compensate.

A friend of mine thinks it's a "Points" thing.

Giving Tali the Pilgrimage data is 1 point
Telling the admirals not to go to war is 1
Not getting Tali exiled is 1
Saving Tali's 1
Saving Legion's 1
Destroying the Heretics is 1
Resolving the conflict is 1
Not punching Han' Garral in the gut is 1
Saving Koris's 1
Etc, etc.

and you need a certain amount of points to get the option for peace (He thinks it's 4)
The explanation works for me because I haven't heard a better one.

 

[RJ 17]

Really? Even if you rewrote the Heretics? So is it just if Tali and Legion both survive the suicide mission?

I'm not certain if that's the ONLY factor, but it certainly adds to it. I'm also pretty certain that you have to resolve their argument in ME 2 without picking sides (so a red or blue conversation choice). I'd also imagine it's important that you save the admiral that's stranded rather than going after his crew like he asks.

Now I don't think it matters whether or not you told them to go to war at the end of Tali's loyalty mission. As far as Rewriting vs Destroying, that decision effects the strength of the Quarian fleet vs the Geth fleet. Rewrite = Stronger Geth fleet than Quarians, Destroy = stronger Quarian fleet than Geth. So ideally if you're picking sides, you pick the side you gave the advantage to. If you're making peace, they essentially balance out and compensate.

A friend of mine thinks it's a "Points" thing.

Giving Tali the Pilgrimage data is 1 point
Telling the admirals not to go to war is 1
Not getting Tali exiled is 1
Saving Tali's 1
Saving Legion's 1
Destroying the Heretics is 1
Resolving the conflict is 1
Not punching Han' Garral in the gut is 1
Saving Koris's 1
Etc, etc.

and you need a certain amount of points to get the option for peace (He thinks it's 4)
The explanation works for me because I haven't heard a better one.

Yea, sounds about right to me. Really I've never gotten into a situation where I WASN'T able to resolve the war without taking sides. My first 2 playthroughs were with a pure never-chose-renegade Paragon, and the other was with a pure never-chose-paragon Renegade. So I basically had both extremes as far as decision making, and really the only decision I was forced to pick a nonred/blue option was the final check against TIM at the end, but I believe that's because I only had an EMS of 4500.

 

[Erttheking]

You misunderstand what I was trying to say, I can't understand the DEGREE to which some people hate some characters, to the point where you try to off them in game despite their deaths being easily avoidable. They're supposed to be on your side and you intentionally kill them because you don't like them, despite all of them going through fair amounts of character development (minus Zaeed) Maybe I'm a wuss when it comes to playing video games, but I can never bring myself to intentionally harm my allies. It's something I would expect from a bad fan fic.

I get what you're saying if we were talking about a different game like Skyrim, where their personalities don't matter so much. But this is Bioware we're talking about where writing is the reason you play the game. When all the characters have deep and varied personalities not feeling anything towards them is weird.

Personally I don't make a distinction between a fictional character and a real person (Read into that what you will) Watching a how fictional character deals with a fictional situation gives me the exact same information about them that watching a real person deal with a real situation does (Depending on how good the writing is)

Maybe you can detach your self from fictional stories, but that seems like it would make them harder to enjoy.

I understand you feeling something towards them, I'm just don't understand why that something is murderous hatred. Hatred I can understand, but murderous hatred? I dunno, maybe it's because I'm a goody goody Paragon but I just don't see the point or the purpose or intentionally killing people on the suicide mission, I've heard plenty of stories of people doing that to other characters and it genuinely creeps me out.

It's kind of like this

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DieForOurShip

And a bit of this
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RonTheDeathEater

Also I don't make a distinction between a fictional character or a real person either...which is why every time I play ME2 I go out of my way to make sure that everyone makes it, even Zaeed (whom I hate on account of being a physcopath). They're my squad and they're under my command, and I'll be damned before I sacrifice them to satisfy my own petty hatred.

 

[Jynthor]

Shepard's personality is hardly even up to you anymore. 90% of your dialog choices come down to whether you want to continue the conversation in a happy or angry way. Renegade Shepard isn't even an Asshole any more because Shep treats anyone who survived the suicide mission like his/her BFF (Except Miranda, but honestly did anyone actually let that ***** survive ME 2)

A lot of people let "that *****" survive ME 2. In fact, she was the second most popular male romance option in the game, out of four. This really makes me question how in touch with the fanbase's wishes you really are.

Personally I think Miranda's ass was the second most popular romance option for Male Shepard.
A pretty sizable portion of the male gender would choose looks over personality, that statistic isn't surprising to me. I'd also hazard a guess that most people who romanced her would agree that she's a schizophrenic, condescending, narcissistic *****.

I romanced Miranda because I liked her personality. I didn't find her to be a ***** at all. Still, it's nice being forced into the "dat ass" group whenever I mention I romanced her.

 

[zumbledum]

Extended cut isnt going to help anything, what it needs is a re write of everything that happens after you land in London

 

[JediMB]

Extended cut isnt going to help anything, what it needs is a re write of everything that happens after you land in London

Try a rewrite of everything after your stab Kai Leng.

Just so the Citadel doesn't magically get conquered and moved to Earth, effectively rendering all your attempts to fortify it pointless.

 

[Mikeyfell]

I understand you feeling something towards them, I'm just don't understand why that something is murderous hatred. Hatred I can understand, but murderous hatred? I dunno, maybe it's because I'm a goody goody Paragon but I just don't see the point or the purpose or intentionally killing people on the suicide mission, I've heard plenty of stories of people doing that to other characters and it genuinely creeps me out.

It's kind of like this

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DieForOurShip

And a bit of this
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RonTheDeathEater

Also I don't make a distinction between a fictional character or a real person either...which is why every time I play ME2 I go out of my way to make sure that everyone makes it, even Zaeed (whom I hate on account of being a physcopath). They're my squad and they're under my command, and I'll be damned before I sacrifice them to satisfy my own petty hatred.

That is a bit weird.
I don't get that invested in "my vision" of what the narrative "should be" (Which is weird because my biggest problem with Mass Effect 3 is that the narrative doesn't follow the path that I think it should. ME 3 might be a special case, because being able to shape the narrative is a selling point of Mass Effect. But I digress)


I don't think my hatred for Miranda takes that form. I hate her because of her personality, and if I was in a confined space with someone who acted just like her for a long period of time I would rip her heart out of her chest with my bare hands.

I have unbridled dislike for a lot of characters but Miranda is the only one that inspires murderous mouth foaming rage every time she opens her **** mouth. It's not for any of those reasons on the TVtropes page.

 

[Mikeyfell]

I love how this thread was supposed to be about the Extended Cut DLC.

Shepard's personality is hardly even up to you anymore. 90% of your dialog choices come down to whether you want to continue the conversation in a happy or angry way. Renegade Shepard isn't even an Asshole any more because Shep treats anyone who survived the suicide mission like his/her BFF (Except Miranda, but honestly did anyone actually let that ***** survive ME 2)

A lot of people let "that *****" survive ME 2. In fact, she was the second most popular male romance option in the game, out of four. This really makes me question how in touch with the fanbase's wishes you really are.

Personally I think Miranda's ass was the second most popular romance option for Male Shepard.
A pretty sizable portion of the male gender would choose looks over personality, that statistic isn't surprising to me. I'd also hazard a guess that most people who romanced her would agree that she's a schizophrenic, condescending, narcissistic *****.

I romanced Miranda because I liked her personality. I didn't find her to be a ***** at all. Still, it's nice being forced into the "dat ass" group whenever I mention I romanced her.

I would like to know what about her personality you liked.
I'm not being sarcastic I'm genuinely interested to find out what you find appealing about her.

 

[Erttheking]

I understand you feeling something towards them, I'm just don't understand why that something is murderous hatred. Hatred I can understand, but murderous hatred? I dunno, maybe it's because I'm a goody goody Paragon but I just don't see the point or the purpose or intentionally killing people on the suicide mission, I've heard plenty of stories of people doing that to other characters and it genuinely creeps me out.

It's kind of like this

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DieForOurShip

And a bit of this
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RonTheDeathEater

Also I don't make a distinction between a fictional character or a real person either...which is why every time I play ME2 I go out of my way to make sure that everyone makes it, even Zaeed (whom I hate on account of being a physcopath). They're my squad and they're under my command, and I'll be damned before I sacrifice them to satisfy my own petty hatred.

That is a bit weird.
I don't get that invested in "my vision" of what the narrative "should be" (Which is weird because my biggest problem with Mass Effect 3 is that the narrative doesn't follow the path that I think it should. ME 3 might be a special case, because being able to shape the narrative is a selling point of Mass Effect. But I digress)


I don't think my hatred for Miranda takes that form. I hate her because of her personality, and if I was in a confined space with someone who acted just like her for a long period of time I would rip her heart out of her chest with my bare hands.

I have unbridled dislike for a lot of characters but Miranda is the only one that inspires murderous mouth foaming rage every time she opens her **** mouth. It's not for any of those reasons on the TVtropes page.

I dunno, it still sounds like you're offing a person that you don't like specifically because of their personality, seems like a major overreaction if you ask me, especially considering that she goes through quite a bit of character development and softens up and then flat out tells TIM to go screw himself if you take her with you at the end of ME2...but you wouldn't know that now would you? Hell, at some points she's a freaking saint compared to Renegade Shep, at least she doesn't punch random civilians in the face and shoot people with little to no provocation.

Also that comment you made in another post about "heh, I thought that this thread was supposed to be about the DLC) yeah to don't have any right to criticize considering your significant contribution to the derailment of this thread. It takes two to argue.

 

[Starke]

1. best case scenario Indoctrination theory is true (BEFORE you get down my throat about that it doesnt have to be "indoctriantion theory" in particular..I just a feeling somthings up here) and we all have a good laugh about how Bioware was trolling us and skip off into the sunset

That'd be great... well, shitty, but, whatever, right up to the point you remember their comment that they're not rewriting the ending. They're simply slapping in more content. Their attitude hasn't been "oh, damn, we fucked up", it's been "pfff, you peons do not understand our genius, here let us show it to you using smaller words that you can understand."

Additionally, and this is on the indoctrination theory, indirectly. The problem is, using any actual metric that applies in the real world, Bioware's writing is bad. I'm talking so bad it makes Robert Ludlum look like a competent author.

They have a lot of fans that will burble on about how awesome their writing is, but then again, so does Dan Brown, and honest to god, in any other industry they'd be laughed out the door.

Their writers don't have the skill or ability to pull off the indoctrination theory (I say this, knowing full well that the scene's original context was basically exactly that). Remember, these are the same people, more or less... well, mostly less, but under the guidance of the same person that thought a non-interactive sequence was the perfect closure to a choose your own adventure trilogy, and honestly believes that, not only is the ending not pants-on-head, but is genuinely intelligent and thought provoking.

 

[nightwolf667]

I didn't like the ending on a thematic level and since they aren't changing that part of it, I don't expect I'll like it.

Really? Even if you rewrote the Heretics? So is it just if Tali and Legion both survive the suicide mission?

I don't know if anyone answered this one with exactly what you need to do yet, but it goes like this:

You can make peace with the Quarians and the Geth IF:

ME1: This is the only one I'm not sure of
Tali Recruited: Yes
Tali Loyalty Mission (Got the Pilgrimage data?): Yes

Tali's loyalty mission: successful, Tali is NOT exiled (As far as I'm aware, you can't achieve a successful conclusion in 3 if Tali was exiled.)
Legion's loyalty mission: successful, doesn't matter what you do
Tali and Legion Crisis Moment: Successfully resolved losing the loyalty of neither
Tali and Legion both survive the suicide mission

ME3: You must do ALL the missions pertaining to the Geth and the Quarians. You cannot skip any of them. Admiral Koris(sp? Yes it was wrong, it's been a bit >.>) of the Civilian Fleet must be rescued (you cannot leave him and save his crew instead), the Geth Primes must be freed and recruited. You must do both the Quarian and the Geth main missions.

Being Geth positive probably doesn't hurt, but I don't think it's exactly necessary. Basically: if you want to resolve the Quarians and the Geth resulting in neither side's genocide, you have to do every step in each game exactly right or it's not going to happen.

 

[Mikeyfell]

I dunno, it still sounds like you're offing a person that you don't like specifically because of their personality, seems like a major overreaction if you ask me, especially considering that she goes through quite a bit of character development and softens up and then flat out tells TIM to go screw himself if you take her with you at the end of ME2...but you wouldn't know that now would you? Hell, at some points she's a freaking saint compared to Renegade Shep, at least she doesn't punch random civilians in the face and shoot people with little to no provocation.

If you're not allowed to get that worked up over someone's personality, what are you allowed to get that worked up over?
I don't really see her soften up throughout her arc, because every other dialog you have with her she jumps back and forth between "You don't impress me Shepard." and "I respect you so much."
If anything her arc shows just how childish she is, the more you try to be nice to her the more pompous she gets and the more you disagree with her the more she throws a hissy fit.
And I do know that she turns on the Illusive Man in the final mission (Because the only way to get her killed is to maker sure she's not loyal and bring her to fight the human reaper) It just reinforces why I hate her even more, that she would turn on TIM, who protected her and her sister from her father and treated her with all the respect she always wines about not getting, for the sake of someone who, in my particular case, never sided with her once.

You also misunderstand why I hate her in the first place, it's not her violent nature. It's her conniving nature. (Her often times poorly executed conniving nature) because occasionally she'll say things like "If I had my way, you'd have a control chip in your head." and the next time you talk to her she all happy and friendly with you. She'll lord her perfection over you in one scene then complain about it in the next.She's either schizophrenic or conniving, take your pick.
She'll tell you "I've had issues with Cerberus's past actions"
Jack confronts her and suddenly "Cerberus has never done anything wrong!"

(I could fill a dissertation with all the stuff I hate about Miranda)

Also that comment you made in another post about "heh, I thought that this thread was supposed to be about the DLC) yeah to don't have any right to criticize considering your significant contribution to the derailment of this thread. It takes two to argue.

You get me wrong, I just love watching the train of thought that got us here.
Stuff like this happens in face to face conversations I have, we'll say something and I'll say "What were we talking about 5 minutes ago?"
It's fun on forums because you have the subject line and can go back and read all the previous posts.
And this isn't even the worse of it.
Once I was in a thread about Halo: Reach breaking preorder records that turned into a discussion about whether Portal was better than Left 4 Dead 2.

 

[Mikeyfell]

ME1: This is the only one I'm not sure of
Tali Recruited: Yes
Tali Loyalty Mission (Got the Pilgrimage data?): Yes

It's impossible not to recruit Tali
and the pilgrimage data isn't necessary. (I got peace without it)

Tali's loyalty mission: successful, Tali is NOT exiled (As far as I'm aware, you can't achieve a successful conclusion in 3 if Tali was exiled.)
Legion's loyalty mission: successful, doesn't matter what you do
Tali and Legion Crisis Moment: Successfully resolved losing the loyalty of neither
Tali and Legion both survive the suicide mission

You can get peace if Tali was exiled
I've never seen peace with re-written Heretics (Not saying it can't happen, I just haven't seen it)
Not sure about this one I always resolved it.
I have seen peace with dead Legion. Never with dead Tali.

ME3: You must do ALL the missions pertaining to the Geth and the Quarians. You cannot skip any of them. Admiral Koris(sp? Yes it was wrong, it's been a bit >.>) of the Civilian Fleet must be rescued (you cannot leave him and save his crew instead), the Geth Primes must be freed and recruited. You must do both the Quarian and the Geth main missions.

Being Geth positive probably doesn't hurt, but I don't think it's exactly necessary. Basically: if you want to resolve the Quarians and the Geth resulting in neither side's genocide, you have to do every step in each game exactly right or it's not going to happen.

I've done peace without rescuing Koris
and I've done it with out shutting down the server.
And I've done it with out being Geth positive.


A friend of mine came up with something called the "Points system"

Giving Tali the Pilgrimage data in ME 1 is a point
Resolving the Legion/Tali moment is a point
Clearing Tali of treason charges is a pint
Destroying the Heretics is a point
Tali and Legion surviving are both points
Rescuing Koris is a point
Saving the Primes is a point
and so on and so forth.

and you need a certain amount of points to get peace.
So none of those things are necessary but you have to do a lot of them.

I think Tali surviving the suicide mission is mandatory though.

 

[Vault101]

[snip.

I wouldnt call their writing brillaint

I also wouldnt call it bad...but that varies

 

[Crazy Zaul]

I don't expect it to be any good, but I'm still looking forward to it out of curiosity.

 

[theparsonski]

Bioware have done a lot for me in gaming over the years. I'm willing to give them an unbiased chance to set right. If they don't, well, thats that.

Finally, someone who's not a complete asshole about this whole thing.

Bioware have made 2.95 games that have taken us to amazing places, given us amazing choices and provided us with amazing gameplay. I'm not going to let that 0.05 of a game ruin the entire series, or Bioware's reputation for me.
I am personally hoping for the indoctrination theory to be true, because I would be insanely happy that Bioware didn't seriously consider leaving the game like it is. I'll forgive them the mistake if the ending is average-decent, but being honest, if they screw this up again, then I'll be slightly pissed off by it.

All in all, I'm not going to dismiss Bioware completely because they made one (albeit rather large) mistake.

Give them a chance, guys.

 

[Starke]

snip.

I wouldnt call their writing brillaint

I also wouldnt call it bad...but that varies

But that's the problem: outside of maybe a little bit of dialog here and there, mostly there, their writing is bad. I mean as a general statement, not just in the context of video games.

It's better than a Saturday morning cartoon... most of the time, but it's still bad writing.