Positech Games Boss Calls For An End To Deep-Discount Sales

[Overquoted]

Two words: Playstation Plus.

can we stop calling those games Free? or atleast put question marks around the word, "Free"

but yeah i agree with your argument, not everyone who buys your game on sale was going to buy it for full price, and hell those people who bought the game on sale might end up buying your sequel at full price or at a higher price point, just look ad paradox and their europa universalis series, or runic games and torchlight II which reached a 2 million units sold milestone last year!

Except, to the end user, they are free. Yeah, we pay a subscription price, but the service comes with benefits other than games (PS4 online connectivity, online game saves, access to extra discounts/sales). Obviously, Sony and the devs work out a financial agreement, but if you divided up that subscription price by the number of games they release over a year, you'd be talking about less than a $1 per game for the end user. Buying a soda costs more than that. To be fair, I get to choose the flavor of soda.

But it's semantics. And at the end of the day, if devs weren't getting a decent benefit from it, PS+ would have withered on the vine rather than actually improved. It used to be a theme, avatar, and maybe 2-4 games, usually a couple of downloadables, some classic PS1/PS2 games and a mini or two. Now we get a AAA release pretty much every month, and then some. Kind of shocking how much it's improved, actually.

 

[Overquoted]

Depends on where you live, EB Games (a part of Gamestop) has the gall to sell COD: Ghosts (for the PS4) at a whopping $132 NZD new.

JB Hi-Fi has a more reasonable price of $112, but that is a rather large amount for a single new copy of a standard edition current-gen console game.

https://www.ebgames.co.nz/ps4-163765-Call-of-Duty-Ghosts-PlayStation-4

http://shop.jbhifi.co.nz/Product/75362/PS4-CALL-OF-DUTY:-GHOSTS

Yeah, you guys (and Australia) get pretty thoroughly screwed. I ended up creating an American account for an Aussie friend and buying him an American PS+ membership and a game or two. Cuz it was that cheap compared to what it would cost him (well, with PS+, Australia gets crap games compared to everyone else).

If it wasn't such a headache to get around billing requirements, I'd suggest you just create an American account and buy digital. Probably still cheaper than what you're paying now, even with currency conversion costs. *shrug*

 

[FalloutJack]

Oh, I'm sorry Mr. Greedy Halfwit Who Didn't Pay Attention In College And Isn't Aware That Gouging The Customer Is Bad For Business And The Economy, I didn't realize that my smart thrift shopping hurt you so! Honestly, I never want to hear businessmen talking about how it's not fair that other people are making money instead of them. It's called competition, fella! DEAL WITH IT!

(Yeah, I said it. Ya know I'm justified.)

 

[Cerebrawl]

Depends on where you live, EB Games (a part of Gamestop) has the gall to sell COD: Ghosts (for the PS4) at a whopping $132 NZD new.

JB Hi-Fi has a more reasonable price of $112, but that is a rather large amount for a single new copy of a standard edition current-gen console game.

https://www.ebgames.co.nz/ps4-163765-Call-of-Duty-Ghosts-PlayStation-4

http://shop.jbhifi.co.nz/Product/75362/PS4-CALL-OF-DUTY:-GHOSTS

Yeah, you guys (and Australia) get pretty thoroughly screwed. I ended up creating an American account for an Aussie friend and buying him an American PS+ membership and a game or two. Cuz it was that cheap compared to what it would cost him (well, with PS+, Australia gets crap games compared to everyone else).

If it wasn't such a headache to get around billing requirements, I'd suggest you just create an American account and buy digital. Probably still cheaper than what you're paying now, even with currency conversion costs. *shrug*

Sidenote to this: Amazon digital sales are US only... I just set up a fake American address to buy games on those sales. Amazon even lets me have multiple addresses in different countries set up, so I can still have them ship physically items to me in Sweden on the same account that I buy digital US-only sale games, they don't care.

So my bet is that you can get around NZ/AUS regional pricing on digital games by purchasing them on Amazon too.

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

Depends on where you live, EB Games (a part of Gamestop) has the gall to sell COD: Ghosts (for the PS4) at a whopping $132 NZD new.

JB Hi-Fi has a more reasonable price of $112, but that is a rather large amount for a single new copy of a standard edition current-gen console game.

https://www.ebgames.co.nz/ps4-163765-Call-of-Duty-Ghosts-PlayStation-4

http://shop.jbhifi.co.nz/Product/75362/PS4-CALL-OF-DUTY:-GHOSTS

Yeah, you guys (and Australia) get pretty thoroughly screwed. I ended up creating an American account for an Aussie friend and buying him an American PS+ membership and a game or two. Cuz it was that cheap compared to what it would cost him (well, with PS+, Australia gets crap games compared to everyone else).

If it wasn't such a headache to get around billing requirements, I'd suggest you just create an American account and buy digital. Probably still cheaper than what you're paying now, even with currency conversion costs. *shrug*

Ironically I use Steam and Humble Bundle sales for most of my purchases, so you can guess that I have a vested interest in Steam/Amazon/Humble sales continuing.

Apart from the rare Collectors Edition (and that down to just a single purchase this year), I don't buy full price games anymore.

Kickstarter however is another story entirely.

 

[weirdee]

As an addendum, almost every game I have purchased on sale in Steam has not really convinced me that they were worth full retail pricing, but at the same time, you can't really put a price on feeling smug about being right about it, unless you count the wasted potential that game had.

Meh. Some would have been worth more than the price I paid, most were fine, some just represent wasted money.

Andy Chalk, on a somewhat different note, not related to the topic. Is it possible that you worked for the RDFRS foundation once?

Note my wording. I have already purchased the games that were apparently worth the full price.

 

[Amir Kondori]

It's a bad thing (and I argue this point primarily as devil's advocate) because it hollows out the industry: You have major triple-A launches like Titanfall on one end, and low-budget indie stuff on the other, with no sustainable middle ground. Indie devs are effectively forced to sell their games at sub-$10 prices almost from the day they launch, and while some of them have done quite well for themselves that way, it's not entirely clear what the long-term effect will be. But it's not unreasonable to suggest that at some point, when these prices become the de facto norm, they'll no longer have the impact they do now. And then what? Free-to-play everything? That's where we're headed already, and it's not a future many people care for. So what's the alternative? What happens to indie devs when gamers finally decide that nobody is worth more than 99 cents?

This is a preposterous line of reasoning. First of all these types of sales don't even happen on consoles, still the largest chunk of the gaming market in overall volume of software units.

You posit that there is no middle ground between a $59.99 AAA new release and a $9.99 indie or budget title. That is clearly not true. Today's featured games on Steam have an indie game, The Banner Saga, selling at $24.99, Ikaruga, an update of an older title by a mid-sized Japanese developer for $9.99, and Age of Wonders III for $39.99 by Triumph Studios, another mid-sized developer.
If we look at the 10 currently best selling games on Steam right now 8 out 10 are selling for $19.99 or above. There are AAA titles and indie titles included in that list.
It is completely unreasonable to suggest that these prices will become the "de facto" norm. You are giving Steam and the publishers and developers who sell through them WAY too little credit here. You think these people are doing anything to minimize the profit they make on their games?
These sale prices are just that, sale prices. They are not the regular price. You may have to wait months or in some cases years before the more heavily discounted prices come up on a title. The people who are really interested in your game will have bought your game before then. When they finally hit Steam, or other distributors, with that 50%, 75%, or even 90% discount they are reaching people who, for the most part, were NEVER going to buy that game at the regular price. This is a documented effect. Digital distribution, including these sales, are helping give games what is called a "long tail", where instead of having to rely on making nearly all of their sales in the first month they now make just as many sales over the next year or longer. These are all good things for gaming.
It is not an accident that indie gaming and PC gaming have risen to prominence in the age of easy digital distribution and Steam-like sales on most digital distribution platforms. The Steam sales are great for people selling games and if anyone gets hurt it is the gamers buying games they are never going to play. That is something I am willing to live with.
To wrap up Cliff Harris is an outspoken individual who has a lot of interesting ideas but he is dead wrong on this.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

Two words: Playstation Plus.

can we stop calling those games Free? or atleast put question marks around the word, "Free"

but yeah i agree with your argument, not everyone who buys your game on sale was going to buy it for full price, and hell those people who bought the game on sale might end up buying your sequel at full price or at a higher price point, just look ad paradox and their europa universalis series, or runic games and torchlight II which reached a 2 million units sold milestone last year!

Except, to the end user, they are free. Yeah, we pay a subscription price, but the service comes with benefits other than games (PS4 online connectivity, online game saves, access to extra discounts/sales). Obviously, Sony and the devs work out a financial agreement, but if you divided up that subscription price by the number of games they release over a year, you'd be talking about less than a $1 per game for the end user. Buying a soda costs more than that. To be fair, I get to choose the flavor of soda.

But it's semantics. And at the end of the day, if devs weren't getting a decent benefit from it, PS+ would have withered on the vine rather than actually improved. It used to be a theme, avatar, and maybe 2-4 games, usually a couple of downloadables, some classic PS1/PS2 games and a mini or two. Now we get a AAA release pretty much every month, and then some. Kind of shocking how much it's improved, actually.

the thing is, its a rental at best, the moment you stop paying for PS+, your games go away, that is not the definition of free, you dont get "free" electricity for paying your bills

is the service worth it?, tough i havent tried it, to me it seems like it is (tough a bit less so now thats mandatory), that does not mean the games are free

 

[m72_ar]

Half the game on my steam library will not be there were it not for the sale.

I bought Dragonfall launch day, I'll buy Dark Souls 2 and the New Wolfenstein launch day.

Thief? after it's being panned critically not buying it at full price
South Park? Despite critical success, I'm not a big South park fan, so not buying it at full price

Should how soon the sale is tweaked? Absolutely.
I think it's completely fair if the game only get to it 50% off status 1 year after release.

But at the end of the day
If I'm excited about your game I'll bought it launch day no questions asked
If I'm kinda meh about your product, you'll never get my money if you sell it at full price

 

[josh4president]

I smell a Jimquisition.

Anyone else smell a Jimquisition?

 

[Grabehn]

I've never bought a game just because it's on sale, but rather I pretty much wouldnt have bought as many games as I have (which is 15 total) if they hadn't been on sale, since my budget is so low that if it wasn't due to sales, I wouldn't have bought any of them ever.

Still, $60 for a PC game? nope, none is worth that, especially since every single "deep discount" is usually made through Steam, which by default means digital copies only. Retailers force the high prices to be the same as physical copies, and I haven't bought any of those in years for a reason.

And people that consider the game worth the full price will probably buy it at full price anyways, so sales affect almost nothing there, except for the compulsory cases, but that's a different matter.

 

[Karadalis]

They're just not worth the money. When they drop down to $30 I'll get the ones that really interest me, like blow me away. $15 and I'll induldge in something I know I'll like but wasn't super thrilled for. $10 or less and I'll grab most decent AAAs in genres I like.

Isn't this just obvious evidence of the devaluation of games? You can't get into any kind of movie theater these days for less than $10 and for that you get 90 minutes of Michael Bay's latest horseshit. And a decent triple-A game in a genre you like is worth less than that?

Once developers of PC titles stop treating their customers like criminals through the use of abritrary DRM, allways online nonsense and denying customer rights because "we are only buying licenses" compared to consoleros is the moment when i say.. yeah you have a point with the devaluing.

Thing is thought PC games simply arent worth the same as Console games.

You dont own them, you dont have any rights.. and they can be taken away from you by the very same digital distribution company that sold you said "license" without so much as a justification.

Yet we are expected to pay the same price as for Console titles that dont come with all these hooks attached to them?`Im treated like a criminal and are expected to pay Top Euro prices for their products.

Not to mention the abhorrent quality issues that plague the PC games market. Titles like Sim city, X:rebirth, Aliens Colonial marines and co. simply show that even if you pay premium it doesnt mean that you get your moneys worth. And since even Tripple A developers are not ashamed to blatantly rip you off why should you take the risk and spend 60 Dollars/Euros on a product that is possibly unusable and you cant get your money back on?

PC games in general are simply not worth 60 dollars through these factors alone, they are inherently at a lower value then console games and that is not the consumers fault but the fault of paranoid developers and publishers who see their customers as criminals. (Despite the fact that the real pirates will most often crack their silly copy protection and DRM measures in a matter of hours at release day.. so the only ones who have to deal with this crap are legit customers)

 

[Cerebrawl]

They're just not worth the money. When they drop down to $30 I'll get the ones that really interest me, like blow me away. $15 and I'll induldge in something I know I'll like but wasn't super thrilled for. $10 or less and I'll grab most decent AAAs in genres I like.

Isn't this just obvious evidence of the devaluation of games? You can't get into any kind of movie theater these days for less than $10 and for that you get 90 minutes of Michael Bay's latest horseshit. And a decent triple-A game in a genre you like is worth less than that?

Actually I think it's pricing that is getting closer to the true value of the games. They've been sold at above value for a long time. Leading to only the very best games being worth the purchase, and gamers buying just a few games. Longevity of the title, having tons of content and replayability was extremely important, because most people could only buy a handful of titles a year. They were just too expensive. Overpriced. And yes it lead to massive piracy because people wanted to play more games than they could afford to buy. Piracy would never have become such a big thing if games were costing $10 instead of $60(or in my country more like $70-100).

I've bought more games in the last two years than I did in the previous two decades. It's not even like developers and publishers are losing money here anyway, they're making more of it, because when the prices are closer to what the market considers reasonable, they sell much more. It's basic economics. Selling above market value gets you less sales. Triple As are still selling like hotcakes to their target demographics at full price, if they don't fuck them up too much. Less interested players weren't going to buy anyway at those prices. Bargain bins aren't exactly a new thing either, I used to pick through the EB Games bargain bins with their buy two get one free in the $10-15 range for something decent to play. Heck back in Amiga days I remember the bargain bins contained games in the $2-4 pricerange.

Most movies aren't worth the cinema ticket price either. Many people wait until they come out on DVD, and rent it, or even don't bother until it shows up on TV years later. It's not like the idea of lower prices with time is a computer game exclusive thing, it happens in pretty much all media, and there's often a free option for those willing to wait(radio for music, public libraries for books, etc). It's not like we're allowed to "own" our games anymore, DRM, droped servers, etc. The only games we can be reasonably sure won't be taken from us are those without DRM, assuming we keep copies around for when the online download services go down.

So it's not devaluing games. It's pricing them according to what will sell, market prices. Deal with it.

EDIT: Sidenote is that I've never ever bought an indie at full price back when they thought they could charge $30+ for some amateur project. Like Adorlea games' RPGmaker offerings. They were never worth that. I've got a couple of their games more recently in bundles though. I never would've bought them otherwise. And I like jRPGs.

 

[CardinalPiggles]

Personally I just don't trust games to not suck. If we didn't get so many "vertical slices of gameplay" and CG trailers and bullshit "reviews" that kiss a games arse then I might be able to trust games a little more and not be so cynical. The whole 'waiting for the sales' idea stems from the industry itself.

I do the same with films and books and TV shows. I won't put any money down unless I'm at least 90% sure I'll enjoy it.

 

[Baresark]

Look at the recent story about Tomb Raider. After all that bullshit about it not performing well, it has more than made it's money back and sold over 6 Million units. That is a success story. I bought that one the first week myself. That game was fun as hell to play, even though the story was a bit contrived. Square Enix basically abandoned the game after the first month. Sales brought it back and it turned it into a success.

I will have to disagree with you on Tomb Raider, it seems everyone forgets it was re-released on 8th generation nearly a year after its initial release, essentially 'double dipping.'

But most of your post is spot-on, except that for me I was slightly interested in in Democracy 3... Until this article of course.

I thought they basically just re-ported the PC version back to the new consoles. I could be wrong. But I also don't think that the sales spiked off the charts on the re-releases. The install base for the new consoles is still pretty low. But I can see your point to, I definitely can't say that I am totally familiar with the situation, I was only going off of what I read recently.

I said that about Democracy 3, but then really, it does look kind of interesting actually. I just don't know if the price is justifiable for it. I think I would really have to be ready to sit down and look at a bunch of option screens. The part of me that knows how unpredictable reality really is also makes it hard for me to get into. They basically offer you choices about taxation and policies, tell you what the outcome will be, and then that is the outcome. If only real life was that simple, haha.

 

[themilo504]

If it wasn?t for steam sale I would never bought half the games I currently play, deep sales are also great for fighting pirates, and only idiots stop playing a game as soon as the they encounter difficulties.

 

[Andy Chalk]

[https://www.ebgames.co.nz/xbox-one-162715-Destiny-Xbox-One - That ones $130,
and the big ass collectors editions usally go for $160 to $400
like this one http://www.mightyape.co.nz/product/Call-of-Duty-Ghosts-Prestige-Edition/21592895

Man I bloody hate NZ game prices . Is why I usually order most of my games from the Uk, unless there?s a good sale on of course.

I suspected this might be an Aus/NZ thing. You guys are definitely in a unique (and uniquely screwed) situation.

(This is where digital distribution should ride in and save the day for you lot. Higher prices might be justifiable when you have to account for shipping stuff all the way over there, but with digital that's no longer a factor. It should be the great equalizer, but with very few exceptions, it's not. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.)

 

[Serioli]

While I cannot speak for everyone, both on a personal level and as 'a consumer', I disagree and disprove what he says.

I regularly buy games close to launch, including Democracy 3, and if cost ever comes into it, it is because I compare it to my wages. 'That game will cost me 'X' hours of work, is it worth that', so long, replayable games are more likely to be bought at launch but the 4-6 hour shooter that I have no interest in playing multiplayer had better bring something mighty good to the table.

I have 800 games in my Steam library alone, 20% completion rate, 3 (not 3%, three the number), have perfect achievements attained. So under his logic I should have only have 160 games in my library. Please explain, even if all those games were bought at full price, how me buying 160 games is better for the industry, development, innovation etc than my buying 800 games. Is he going to pay the wages of the other 640 games teams?

I flat out disagree that I get my rush from discount hunting. I've played games since I had to type them into my 1k ZX-81 and I don't see my desire to play games, and enjoy playing games going anywhere. (Further to the above, my endorphin rush is, demonstrably, not from getting a sale, completing the game quickly or even at all or some esoteric achievement collection. I game to game. I enjoy playing, replaying, adding challenges to and finding different ways to play games.)

From a purely personal perspective, if anything makes me stop buying games at release it will be the games industry itself.

Broken crappy games, even from established developers and developers you have loved in the past. (I own both Aliens colonial marines and X-rebirth, both pre-order.*)

Releasing GOTY's quickly, seriously Bethesda I have loved most games you have been involved in (Rogue Warriooooor! GRAAAAGH.) but if I know you are going to be releasing a GOTY soon I will wait. (Dragonborn release Feb 2013, GOTY release June 2013).

*I not only keep them in my library, I keep them installed, clogging up my hard-drive, bloated and unused. Occasionally they will update, encroaching on my consciousness again.

Yes, Serioli, pre-order that game..... You love the genre... It has new mechanics... You can trust that developer, you really enjoyed their last game.... Loooook, it gives you a spangly deedleflapper that you can also use in that other game you love... Just click it, you're already on the store page... Doesn't that launch trailer look amazing... Just one more click and it will be yours... Yes! click it! YEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS!

 

[Andy Chalk]

In 1985, Tales of the Unknown Volume 1: The Bard's Tale sold new at Radio Shack in Canada for $76.95. Setting aside the CDN/US exchange rate for simplicity's sake, if we plug $77 into various inflation calculators (http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php, http://www.coinnews.net/tools/cpi-inflation-calculator/, http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl ) we end up with an adjusted cost of about $170.

This is a very simplistic way of comparing "value" but it does shed some interesting light on how pricing has changed over the years. In a direct, unadjusted comparison, Skyrim costs less than The Bard's Tale, yet somehow we've come up with this idea that games aren't "worth" more than a few dollars. Maybe we're spoiled by abundance - and by game prices that perhaps aren't as bad as we perceive them to be?