Problems that men have to deal with

[Lokis Maliki]

snip

Yes but how many of those expectations are self imposed? How many are assuming a social title where they do not meet the requirements or or are not willing to conform to them? Thus my Man vs Male question. If someone refers to them self as a "Man" is it societies responsibility to conform the definition to fit them, or is it their responsibility to either meet the requirements of the title or choose another one? In this case, "Male".

It seems to me that some of the complaints are not the complaints with being "Male" in society but rather a "Man" or "Manly" expectations. I just find it absurd that some will declare them selves a "Man" but whine about "Manly" expectation society places on them. Simple solution, stop misrepresenting themselves as a "Man" and just say "Male".

In my view having a separate sub-gender for men within the male gender will solve many of the problems without having to drag all males down the same path. Many men are satisfied with being "Men" and apparently some are not.

Don't get me wrong there are serious offenses placed against males in today's hyper feminized society, I just feel we are splitting hairs when people are making complainants such as people expecting them to like or play sports.
I mean come on, really?!

fair point.

I think the issue is that there are perceptions and that, in order to not conform to them, a person must be willing to fight for their entire life.

You might find the concept of micro-aggression and how it maintains cultural standards interesting.

Regardless, while I agree with you that a simple shift in perception is useful and could stop a lot of hurt feelings, it is sadly much easier said than done. When there is no dialogue, people feel isolated. Dialogue can create a sense that a least you are not alone. In accepting that you don't fit within the dominant paradigm for accepted behaviour, not feeling alone is worth a lot.

For this reason, I do see the distinguishing between man and male as premature here. Venting and support are two things that allow people to defy social norms. As I interpret the OP, that is what he is trying to do... to see if he is not out to lunch and foolish. That in defying extremely strict standards of social conduct, that what he is doing and feeling are not wrong.

I could be mistaken, this is just how I view the purpose of this thread.

josh

Post Note: I have traveled extensively and have only just returned to my country of birth after living abroad for ten years. I find that Western culture says to be yourself, but uses social aggression to force people to be themselves within strict delineated areas. If getting a few people to back him up so that it is easier for him to happy with the stats nature rolled him is all he needs, I for one support the OP and the thread.

 

[Lokis Maliki]

heres the thing, once you hit 30, NONE OF THIS SHIT MATTERS, any adult who lets this random bullshit get to them really should learn to let it go. The real problems male face? Prostate cancer. Thats a real thing you should worry about, what any other person on this planet thinks about you, does not fucking matter, so fuck em. For all you guys 29 and under, listen to the old geezer who remembers dial-up and when gatorade came in glass bottles, none of this social crap about men and women matter to anyone. The majority of the population of this world only care about making enough money to be comfortable and if their family is taken care of. Thats it.

Look up male isolation and suicide rates. Maybe you are one of the lucky ones who has not been caught up in this cycle.

Also, the Aussie concept of Sheds for men. A lot of interesting research in those areas.

 

[Harpalyce]

I'm just going to toss a radical feminist idea in here that I'm sure will bring approximately fifteen million people down upon my head screaming at the top of their lungs:

Okay, imagine a venn diagram. One part is "problems men have to deal with" along this thread's line. Another part is "problems feminism wishes to address".

Got it? Okay, good. Now let me tell you something gamechanging:

That venn diagram is just one circle. There is complete overlap.

When you go down to the root of so many of these problems, they're all about proving masculinity. They're all about doing that TO NOT BE FEMININE - and it's about the fear of being feminine. Why? Because being feminine is bad. That's what society teaches us. Therefore only the worst sort of man would be feminine, right? So men grow up with this huge burden, and that burden is lablled Don't Be Girly. It hurts them in school. It hurts them in their daily lives. It hurts their emotional development. It hurts their relationships with people. It even might hurt their careers. It's what isolates. It's what drives people to suicide. They think they've failed this standard of Don't Be Girly, or can't find a way out that's not Too Girly. I mean, for fuck's sake, it's a demonstrable thing that men don't go to the doctor when they need to because "toughing it out" is the "manly" thing to do! Never mind what that mindset does to somebody with depression - think about the guy having a heart attack who goes "no, I'm not going to the ER, I can walk this off because I'm not a sissy". Sissy. GIRLY.

At the root of all this is the fear of being girly.

So what happens when we get rid of this archaic standard that men and women must be polar opposites? What happens when we fight to make it clear that being girly is okay too, because girly doesn't mean weak?

We take away the yardstick, and men stop measuring themselves by it. Men benefit greatly by not being constrained by this set of rules to keep them from being 'too girly'.

This is like feminism 101. I'm sure it's come up in the thread before. I'm sure it'll come up again. Other people have addressed counterarguments to this better than I have, but I wanted to at least drop this idea by here. We're allies, you guys, it just takes people stepping forward to go "you know what, you're right, these archaic gender standards are totally bullshit".

 

[Jack Action]

I'm just going to toss a radical feminist idea in here that I'm sure will bring approximately fifteen million people down upon my head screaming at the top of their lungs:

Okay, imagine a venn diagram. One part is "problems men have to deal with" along this thread's line. Another part is "problems feminism wishes to address".

Got it? Okay, good. Now let me tell you something gamechanging:

That venn diagram is just one circle. There is complete overlap.

When you go down to the root of so many of these problems, they're all about proving masculinity. They're all about doing that TO NOT BE FEMININE - and it's about the fear of being feminine. Why? Because being feminine is bad. That's what society teaches us. Therefore only the worst sort of man would be feminine, right? So men grow up with this huge burden, and that burden is lablled Don't Be Girly. It hurts them in school. It hurts them in their daily lives. It hurts their emotional development. It hurts their relationships with people. It even might hurt their careers. It's what isolates. It's what drives people to suicide. They think they've failed this standard of Don't Be Girly, or can't find a way out that's not Too Girly. I mean, for fuck's sake, it's a demonstrable thing that men don't go to the doctor when they need to because "toughing it out" is the "manly" thing to do! Never mind what that mindset does to somebody with depression - think about the guy having a heart attack who goes "no, I'm not going to the ER, I can walk this off because I'm not a sissy". Sissy. GIRLY.

At the root of all this is the fear of being girly.

So what happens when we get rid of this archaic standard that men and women must be polar opposites? What happens when we fight to make it clear that being girly is okay too, because girly doesn't mean weak?

We take away the yardstick, and men stop measuring themselves by it. Men benefit greatly by not being constrained by this set of rules to keep them from being 'too girly'.

This is like feminism 101. I'm sure it's come up in the thread before. I'm sure it'll come up again. Other people have addressed counterarguments to this better than I have, but I wanted to at least drop this idea by here. We're allies, you guys, it just takes people stepping forward to go "you know what, you're right, these archaic gender standards are totally bullshit".

From where I'm standing, the only thing feminism does for men's problems is say 'well you've only got problems because you try to be big and tough; stop that, and we'll get around to the one or two problems you've got that aren't related as soon as we're completely done eliminating every single problem women have'. Aka dismissing them entirely with a condescending 'it's your fault you've got problems' attitude.

Or ignore them outright, see the thing with US college attendance being 55% female. It was a problem when it was only 45% female, but it's not a problem when it's only 45% male?

Make up your minds, people.

Tl;dr I'm not buying the idea that feminism cares about men's problems. Feminism being a ridiculously broad category (to the point where the word is now almost meaningless without half a dozen adjectives tacked on), I'm sure you're going to point out that some feminists care about men's problems and actively work towards fixing them.

 

[Harpalyce]

I... actually am going to point out that some feminists care about men's problems and actively work towards fixing them, but I'm not really sure where I'm supposed to go off your post since you already know what's about to happen and you acknowledge feminism is a big category?

I'll toss out another radical idea, though - by fighting to make feminine=/=powerless and bad, all feminists are actually helping men by making 'feminine' things more accessible to them (even feminine things like, say, going to the doctor, or being in touch with one's own emotions, or taking care of their kids without special kudos).

All the feminists I know acknowledge that these things are swords that cut both ways, if that makes sense. It's just that it cuts women more than men, because men still get to be in power and are expected to be in power - that's part of the machismo thing - and women aren't. The snappy responses you may have seen are probably from people who have gotten fed up trying to explain this to men who think their problems are worse than women's when they demonstrably, well, aren't. (Again, this is feminism 101. I'm not going to hold your hand and gently direct you to google; you can look up your own statistics on how women get dicked over by the system.)

 

[piketheguy]

heres the thing, once you hit 30, NONE OF THIS SHIT MATTERS, any adult who lets this random bullshit get to them really should learn to let it go. The real problems male face? Prostate cancer. Thats a real thing you should worry about, what any other person on this planet thinks about you, does not fucking matter, so fuck em. For all you guys 29 and under, listen to the old geezer who remembers dial-up and when gatorade came in glass bottles, none of this social crap about men and women matter to anyone. The majority of the population of this world only care about making enough money to be comfortable and if their family is taken care of. Thats it.

Look up male isolation and suicide rates. Maybe you are one of the lucky ones who has not been caught up in this cycle.

Also, the Aussie concept of Sheds for men. A lot of interesting research in those areas.

yeah re-read what i wrote, when you engrosse yourself in the the opinions of others, surround yourself with people who tell you how you should be, and indulge anyone who tells you how you should change yourself to better fit in, Id withdraw and kill myself too. Because at that point i have surrendered my will to enjoy who I am to someone else.

I've watched guys withdraw from society (some who actually are much better for it) and I've had buddies end their own lives, and after watching good friends do that and after years of asking myself where I failed them, I realized something, it dosent matter, because at the end of the day, if someone chooses to end their life or refuses society there is shit fuck one I can do about it, a truly determined individual will find a way.

I am my own island, my decisions dictate the reality I enjoy, and if I choose its time for me to go and if i choose to withdraw from society, that is my decision, and if someone dosent think I havent thought out my decision and think they know what is better for me, they are insulting me as a human being.

p.s. all you fuckers (males specifically) are still puberty nuts till 25 anyway. If you cant look back on your teenage years and wonder to yourself -man, what the fuck was i thinking?- then sorry bro, you are still puberty nuts and the hormones still have you.

 

[AnthrSolidSnake]

First off, like a lot of guys, I have long hair. I take care of my hair. That's considered incredibly odd, even by my own parents. Yeah, I take maybe an hour total to get ready to go somewhere if I rush. That includes a shower, drying off, drying my hair, brushing it, straightening it, and putting on clothes.
Most people seem to be put off by the straightening part. I never understood why. I like my hair straight? Sure, its mostly straight naturally, but not that light, clean looking, soft straight that girls at my work claim to love so much.

 

[Anja Bech]

There are a lot of bs 'standards' that men are supposed to adhere to in western society, the most damaging of which I feel is not showing any kind vulnerability. This is one of those thing that just makes me wish I could somehow impose my view on the whole word through benevolent dictatorship. Why should a man not be allowed to show his emotions, to reach out for help if he needs it, to recognize when he needs it? It seriously hinders open and honest communication, and it stifles boys' means of expressing themselves. Yes, there are tons of things that men have to deal with, (I'm not even going to talk about women - another problem for another thread. Seriously people, on thing at a time, okay?) but this is the one I feel really shows the root of the issue. Men are apparently not allowed to be the carers. That makes me really sad. I want my boyfriend, my dad, my brother, my potential kid to be able to be people with emotional needs and instabilities without it making them into lesser men. Fuck that noise...

 

[Jack Action]

I... actually am going to point out that some feminists care about men's problems and actively work towards fixing them, but I'm not really sure where I'm supposed to go off your post since you already know what's about to happen and you acknowledge feminism is a big category?

I'll toss out another radical idea, though - by fighting to make feminine=/=powerless and bad, all feminists are actually helping men by making 'feminine' things more accessible to them (even feminine things like, say, going to the doctor, or being in touch with one's own emotions, or taking care of their kids without special kudos).

All the feminists I know acknowledge that these things are swords that cut both ways, if that makes sense. It's just that it cuts women more than men, because men still get to be in power and are expected to be in power - that's part of the machismo thing - and women aren't. The snappy responses you may have seen are probably from people who have gotten fed up trying to explain this to men who think their problems are worse than women's when they demonstrably, well, aren't. (Again, this is feminism 101. I'm not going to hold your hand and gently direct you to google; you can look up your own statistics on how women get dicked over by the system.)

Well, first, here's an opposite radical idea: we should fight the idea that being stoic and strong is bad and harmful (because stoicism does have its advantages, much like being emotional). Women would be better off if they sucked it up and kicked life in the nuts when it's mean to them, like men are expected to.

Bit ridiculous, isn't it?

Second, women being feminine hardly makes them powerless. Quite the opposite, since men are (generally) attracted to feminine women, this gives said women a significant amount of power over the men who are attracted to them, even if said men don't think with their dicks; being feminine, by itself, is not a bad thing, it's just utterly useless for men, in terms of power over others. With a notable exception for gay men who are attracted to feminine men, obviously.

Third, SOME problems women have are worse than SOME problem men have. On the flipside, SOME problems men have are worse than SOME problems women have. I do believe we can agree on this, yes? My problem is with the absolute "women have it worse", or its rarely encountered sister, "men have it worse".

Fourth, the point about feminism being a ridiculously broad category was that you could in theory say feminism is for anything, from plush koala bears to Mars missions.

 

[Harpalyce]

Second, women being feminine hardly makes them powerless. Quite the opposite, since men are (generally) attracted to feminine women, this gives said women a significant amount of power over the men who are attracted to them, even if said men don't think with their dicks; being feminine, by itself, is not a bad thing, it's just utterly useless for men, in terms of power over others. With a notable exception for gay men who are attracted to feminine men, obviously.

Third, SOME problems women have are worse than SOME problem men have. On the flipside, SOME problems men have are worse than SOME problems women have. I do believe we can agree on this, yes? My problem is with the absolute "women have it worse", or its rarely encountered sister, "men have it worse".

Ehhh, we may have to disagree on that one. The fashion industry is a really odd creature, and most of it is built around getting people to buy stuff, not about actually appealing to men. Women feel compelled to cater to men, which makes it a different power dynamic.

I'd say the statistics still say the women have it - simply looking at things like pay gap and how much a woman's work is valued less than a man's work (going back to the 'chore gap' even in childhood that has been demonstrated by recent studies - again, this is easily googleable).

I do see your point though. I realize that it may seem stupid for me to stand here going 'no really, the ladies have it worse still', but the bigger point is that this all goes to the same root. We all gang up and attack that same root of bullshit gender standards, we all win.

 

[Anja Bech]

Again, I'm pretty okay with that. I can't think of anything I'd be less interested in than another dude's emotional needs.

Not even your own? You don't think that's a problem?

I happen to care about the men i surround myself with, and I want them to be able to be open and honest without fearing ridicule. I want there to be less stigma for men who needs help, psychologically or otherwise emotionally. I want there to be room for men to actually be able to acknowledge insecurities, anxiety, loneliness, depression, fear etc, without being made to feel less for it. I want it to be absolutely unacceptable for anyone to ridicule male survivors of rape and assault, and I want to have a society where a man can get help if he's being abused by his spouse without being made to feel less for it. Spousal abuse of men is ridiculously common and there are so few programs out there, so few ways to get help.

 

[Erttheking]

hiding my boner. if women have the right to free bleed then I should have the right to rub one out all over some feminist dyke's ugly lesbian face

...Ok first of all, I made this thread so that men and women who notice men's problems could have a place to voice their displeasure, not to give you a platform to spew hatred. Second of all, painting not being able to masturbate into a woman's face as a problem men has to face brings the entire male gender down. Third of all...no...just no.

 

[Erttheking]

Again, I'm pretty okay with that. I can't think of anything I'd be less interested in than another dude's emotional needs.

Not even your own? You don't think that's a problem?

Well, I said "another dude's emotional needs." I don't think of myself as another dude. So no. Why would it be a problem? I have zero interest in talking about my emotions, and we slip into negative integers in terms of interest when it comes to some other guy's.

I happen to care about the men i surround myself with, and I want them to be able to be open and honest without fearing ridicule. I want there to be less stigma for men who needs help, psychologically or otherwise emotionally. I want there to be room for men to actually be able to acknowledge insecurities, anxiety, loneliness, depression, fear etc, without being made to feel less for it. I want it to be absolutely unacceptable for anyone to ridicule male survivors of rape and assault, and I want to have a society where a man can get help if he's being abused by his spouse without being made to feel less for it. Spousal abuse of men is ridiculously common and there are so few programs out there, so few ways to get help.

That's because we tend to value putting resources where they're needed most, I believe. My live-in girlfriend is 5'2" and about 115 pounds. I wouldn't require a great deal of support if she tried to go all cage match on me.

You see that stereotype about people who are physically smaller not being able to hurt bigger people is exactly why so many men who are abused by their spouses have problems getting help. Women who are an abusive have a tendency to use weapons when they attack their partners. This multiplies the amount of damage that they can do. It doesn't matter how smaller someone is than you, if they can smash you in the back of the head with a lead pipe, they've already won.

 

[Obama's Dad 420]

hiding my boner. if women have the right to free bleed then I should have the right to rub one out all over some feminist dyke's ugly lesbian face

...Ok first of all, I made this thread so that men and women who notice men's problems could have a place to voice their displeasure, not to give you a platform to spew hatred. Second of all, painting not being able to masturbate into a woman's face as a problem men has to face brings the entire male gender down. Third of all...no...just no.

How is my post spewing hatred? I didn't say I hated anyone.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

hiding my boner. if women have the right to free bleed then I should have the right to rub one out all over some feminist dyke's ugly lesbian face

...Ok first of all, I made this thread so that men and women who notice men's problems could have a place to voice their displeasure, not to give you a platform to spew hatred. Second of all, painting not being able to masturbate into a woman's face as a problem men has to face brings the entire male gender down. Third of all...no...just no.

Report and move on. People like that aren't worth the effort to respond.

This thread has gone on long enough without exploding so I guess I'll contribute too. The following is quite the spiel, so I'll summarise the key points being raised.

*Men are more likely to be perceived as the aggressors in a confrontation against a woman.
*By societies standards, due to our (typically) greater body mass, we are restricted by how we respond to an abusive woman. Obviously don't hit her (don't hit anyone), but even raising your voice is considered damnable if your a man.
*People will likely side with the Woman in a confrontation between a Man and a Woman. Context isn't required as society dictates that Men are always aggressors.
*Men are held accountable for not being a "man".
*Some men, particularly those who developed very strong masculine characteristics (body hair, body mass, deep voice etc.) are viewed as threatening by some, regardless of their underlying personality.

This post deals with verbal Bullying that I personally endured and even thinking about has my emotions in a twist. So forgive any incoherency. I wanted to air this out but I don't want to think on it for too long.

Spoiler

I'm not going to tackle day to day grievances of being a man as I find it trivial. For the most part I am who am and that may or may not conform with my societies gender roles. My main issue is with my Mom, and how she perceives me.

We would frequently clash over certain subjects and things would get pretty heated. Generally it would be her trying to impose her own expectations of what a "man" like me should be doing with his life, usually threatening repercussions if I didn't bow my head and accept. Apparently I failed to live up to her standards. It got to a point where she would just stand in front of me and list off all the things "wrong" with me... and when my self esteem was on the floor that's when I would erupt in rage. Sick and tired of being constantly belittled I would just burst in despair and frustration. It was a combination of pathetic sobbing and earsplitting roars, and the occasional buckling over and hyperventilating due to getting a panic attack.

I would never hit her, it never even came close. But the anger flares and I can't seal it back up. It needs some outlet and on the rare occasion that I "lost it" some inanimate object was likely to meet an undeserved end (usually furniture, pillows never worked for me). I'm sure it looks scary from the outside, but it's fucking agony from my perspective.

The torrents of dehumanising, humiliating and soul destroying comments from my Mom would take their toll on me and leave me a broken mess in my late teens and early adult life. I've begun addressing the issues this caused in recent years but I can never bring this subject up with her.

Because in her mind I was the Bully.

I'm at least double the weight of her and I'm covered in hair. People have said that when I want to be I can look quite imposing. I don't like that. I'm not strong at heart... I'm pretty fucking fragile actually. I'm a coward in so far that I try to avoid conflict. This includes suppressing my own feelings as to not address certain issues I face. I'm quiet but not shy. I'm a softy and have no love for real world violence (I can like it in action movies and games without being a hypocrite). Man, I even feel bad when I kill bugs and spiders, despite having crippling arachnophobia.

So when my Mom poked and prodded me, assault me verbally with surgical precision, and I crack under the pressure... I'm the bad guy. To be fair, if someone walked in at the moment when I flip the lid I'm sure I would look pretty menacing. Again, I'm double her weight, I have a deep and loud voice and when I snap I let loose in a flurry of pent up agony.

Apparently a man should be silent and stoic. As I said earlier I'm generally quiet. But I do have feelings and she rips them out of me, throws them to the floor and stands on them.

For a Long time I had to deal with this myself. My outbursts were my own fault and I should have just sucked it up and move on. Would have loved to, but it would also got to a critical point where I couldn't maintain myself.

For years I felt like something was terribly wrong with me.

In the last 8 or so years the narrative changed somewhat. It became apparent to my Dad that I wasn't given much of a choice during these crisis points. I was often cornered while being berated, and walking away would only have her follow me and make her more hostile. He started sticking up for me and he too started being accused of bullying. Eventually their already strained relationship brokedown and he left. I was accused of being a homewrecker...

...and then I left.

I still talk to her and we meet up, but the relationship is irrevocably damaged. I'm not vindictive towards her. Besides the damage she did to me seemed to come back on her eventually (marriage break up being part of it) without any effort on my part.

I don't think she's aware of my feelings on this. Regardless, I'm not going to let her dictate to me, as an adult, what I ought to be.

I have no idea how much this will resonate with others, but frankly I don't care either. I needed to vent.

 

[WhiteNachos]

"today's hyper feminized society" can someone explain to me what ppl are reffering to when they use this term? As in, for example, what are the traits of this feminized society?

I think they mean that society looks down on traditional masculinity (not just the 'be head of the household if you're a guy' part). But that's just my best guess.

 

[WhiteNachos]

"today's hyper feminized society" can someone explain to me what ppl are reffering to when they use this term? As in, for example, what are the traits of this feminized society?

I think the existence of tumblr is example enough, no?

No, tumblr has a reputation for having more radical feminists than anywhere else. It's like saying 4chan is proof of society being full of trolls. You don't have to be one to go to 4chan but there's a disproportionate amount of them there.

 

[Vendor-Lazarus]

Spoiler

I'm not going to tackle day to day grievances of being a man as I find it trivial. For the most part I am who am and that may or may not conform with my societies gender roles. My main issue is with my Mom, and how she perceives me.

We would frequently clash over certain subjects and things would get pretty heated. Generally it would be her trying to impose her own expectations of what a "man" like me should be doing with his life, usually threatening repercussions if I didn't bow my head and accept. Apparently I failed to live up to her standards. It got to a point where she would just stand in front of me and list off all the things "wrong" with me... and when my self esteem was on the floor that's when I would erupt in rage. Sick and tired of being constantly belittled I would just burst in despair and frustration. It was a combination of pathetic sobbing and earsplitting roars, and the occasional buckling over and hyperventilating due to getting a panic attack.

I would never hit her, it never even came close. But the anger flares and I can't seal it back up. It needs some outlet and on the rare occasion that I "lost it" some inanimate object was likely to meet an undeserved end (usually furniture, pillows never worked for me). I'm sure it looks scary from the outside, but it's fucking agony from my perspective.

The torrents of dehumanising, humiliating and soul destroying comments from my Mom would take their toll on me and leave me a broken mess in my late teens and early adult life. I've begun addressing the issues this caused in recent years but I can never bring this subject up with her.

Because in her mind I was the Bully.

I'm at least double the weight of her and I'm covered in hair. People have said that when I want to be I can look quite imposing. I don't like that. I'm not strong at heart... I'm pretty fucking fragile actually. I'm a coward in so far that I try to avoid conflict. This includes suppressing my own feelings as to not address certain issues I face. I'm quiet but not shy. I'm a softy and have no love for real world violence (I can like it in action movies and games without being a hypocrite). Man, I even feel bad when I kill bugs and spiders, despite having crippling arachnophobia.

So when my Mom poked and prodded me, assault me verbally with surgical precision, and I crack under the pressure... I'm the bad guy. To be fair, if someone walked in at the moment when I flip the lid I'm sure I would look pretty menacing. Again, I'm double her weight, I have a deep and loud voice and when I snap I let loose in a flurry of pent up agony.

Apparently a man should be silent and stoic. As I said earlier I'm generally quiet. But I do have feelings and she rips them out of me, throws them to the floor and stands on them.

For a Long time I had to deal with this myself. My outbursts were my own fault and I should have just sucked it up and move on. Would have loved to, but it would also got to a critical point where I couldn't maintain myself.

For years I felt like something was terribly wrong with me.

In the last 8 or so years the narrative changed somewhat. It became apparent to my Dad that I wasn't given much of a choice during these crisis points. I was often cornered while being berated, and walking away would only have her follow me and make her more hostile. He started sticking up for me and he too started being accused of bullying. Eventually their already strained relationship brokedown and he left. I was accused of being a homewrecker...

...and then I left.

I still talk to her and we meet up, but the relationship is irrevocably damaged. I'm not vindictive towards her. Besides the damage she did to me seemed to come back on her eventually (marriage break up being part of it) without any effort on my part.

I don't think she's aware of my feelings on this. Regardless, I'm not going to let her dictate to me, as an adult, what I ought to be.

I have no idea how much this will resonate with others, but frankly I don't care either. I needed to vent.

I left the spoiler tag so you don't have to read it all over again.

I just wanted you to know that I experienced the exact same thing as you during my upbringing.
Even down to the arachnophobia. She has even said to my face that I'm responsible for my father leaving.
The only slight difference is that I don't see myself as big (only 1,75cm, no muscles) though I am the tallest in my family.
I also have a sister that often took precedence in her view, and she even used her to hammer home the point by holding her up as a better person than me.

The verbal abuse still haunts me as I continue to live in her debt.
I rent an apartment at her 'ranch'. I'm not sure I could live elsewhere for fear of..not being able to handle things.
I'm granted transport to and from things sometimes (I don't have a drivers license since I'm afraid of failure. No, convinced of failure rather).
I often walk the 5km to the bus instead. When I can.
I'm working a low-paying job that keeps me away from 05:00 to 19:00.
I've even lost my teeth trying to harm myself. I think that's why. As a way of fighting back somehow.
I wont even mention the failed suicide attempt and thoughts. Those are over now.

I can't hold a grudge for long either, it tears me up inside.
I avoid conflict, strife and drama whenever I can. It's too mentally exhausting.
I don't blame every woman for her behavior. What she has done is on her but she lives in blissful ignorance of her superiority.
It would be so much easier not caring, but I do. I do care.

I can see why you put it in a spoiler tag. My hands are actually shaking. It was hard writing that. Very hard.

Apologies for whining and ranting.

 

[Suhi89]

I'm just going to toss a radical feminist idea in here that I'm sure will bring approximately fifteen million people down upon my head screaming at the top of their lungs:

Okay, imagine a venn diagram. One part is "problems men have to deal with" along this thread's line. Another part is "problems feminism wishes to address".

Got it? Okay, good. Now let me tell you something gamechanging:

That venn diagram is just one circle. There is complete overlap.

When you go down to the root of so many of these problems, they're all about proving masculinity. They're all about doing that TO NOT BE FEMININE - and it's about the fear of being feminine. Why? Because being feminine is bad. That's what society teaches us. Therefore only the worst sort of man would be feminine, right? So men grow up with this huge burden, and that burden is lablled Don't Be Girly. It hurts them in school. It hurts them in their daily lives. It hurts their emotional development. It hurts their relationships with people. It even might hurt their careers. It's what isolates. It's what drives people to suicide. They think they've failed this standard of Don't Be Girly, or can't find a way out that's not Too Girly. I mean, for fuck's sake, it's a demonstrable thing that men don't go to the doctor when they need to because "toughing it out" is the "manly" thing to do! Never mind what that mindset does to somebody with depression - think about the guy having a heart attack who goes "no, I'm not going to the ER, I can walk this off because I'm not a sissy". Sissy. GIRLY.

At the root of all this is the fear of being girly.

So what happens when we get rid of this archaic standard that men and women must be polar opposites? What happens when we fight to make it clear that being girly is okay too, because girly doesn't mean weak?

We take away the yardstick, and men stop measuring themselves by it. Men benefit greatly by not being constrained by this set of rules to keep them from being 'too girly'.

This is like feminism 101. I'm sure it's come up in the thread before. I'm sure it'll come up again. Other people have addressed counterarguments to this better than I have, but I wanted to at least drop this idea by here. We're allies, you guys, it just takes people stepping forward to go "you know what, you're right, these archaic gender standards are totally bullshit".

No. Sorry this argument is made an few times in this thread, and I've written this response a number of times, but I'll just try to keep it to very points.


Firstly, as you admit, there is no single definition of feminism. So which feminism. Is it the one that gave us the following quotes?

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them."

"The male is completely egocentric, trapped inside himself, incapable of empathizing or identifying with others, or love, friendship, affection or tenderness. He is a completely isolated unit, incapable of rapport with anyone. His responses are entirely visceral, not cerebral; his intelligence is a mere tool in the services of his drives and needs; he is incapable of mental passion, mental interaction; he can't relate to anything other than his own physical sensations. He is a half-dead, unresponsive lump, incapable of giving or receiving pleasure or happiness; consequently, he is at best an utter bore, an inoffensive blob, since only those capable of absorption in others can be charming."

"Men are rapists, batterers, plunderers, killers; these same men are religious prophets, poets, heroes, figures of romance, adventure, accomplishment, figures ennobled by tragedy and defeat. Men have claimed the earth, called it 'Her'. Men ruin Her. Men have airplanes, guns, bombs, poisonous gases, weapons so perverse and deadly that they defy any authentically human imagination."

"Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which [strong]all[/strong] men keep all women in a state of fear"

"Domestic violence is the result of patriarchal ideology in which men are encouraged and expected to control their partners".

The last quote there is the basis of the Duluth Model. It leaves no room for male victims of domestic violence, or female victims of female perpetrators. It is a theory developed and promoted by feminists and it actively contributes to problems that real men face.

Another thing, try to discuss men's issues on a feminist forum. Try to convince major feminist organisations to campaign for better parental rights for dads or for better healthcare provisions for men. At best, you'll be told that they're worthy causes but it isn't a feminist organisation's job to fight for them. At worst, you'll be told that it doesn't matter that you're homeless, you're privileged scum and men aren't welcome in the feminist movement.

I'm actually a feminist, but that's because I care about the rights and privileges of women, and that's what I believe feminism is about. It's a worthy cause. If it helps men, for most feminists, it's a bonus. And when men do try to discuss their own issues in their own spaces? They're told to shut up because feminism is dealing with it. And when they try to bring up their issues in feminist spaces? They're told to shut up because feminism isn't about men.

I just think your post is like a conservative saying "you know the issues that the poor have and the issues that conservatives want to address? Well, if you draw a Venn diagram you'd just get one circle, because if we give tax cuts to the rich and push through massive deregulation, it will help the poor too. Ignore those conservatives who have said that the poor are all lazy bums. Ignore those conservative policies that have actively harmed you - we're all you really need." Sure, there a lots of conservatives who do care about the poor and a tax cut that mainly helps the rich may have the side effect of helping the poor too, but to present a single political view as the one answer ignoring any possible evidence to the contrary is just plain dogmatic.

Also, all men's problems are because they're scared of being seen as girly? All of them? Really?

 

[Itdoesthatsometimes]

snip

You ask which definition of feminism gave the following quotes. Perhaps you could help answer the question by crediting who you are quoting.