Rage Demo Unlikely, Says Bethesda

[Choppaduel]

rage sale unlikely, says I.

 

[Zer_]

Look at those games, I mean, how many of them came out during this century? Id games are just tech demos at this point, they make far more off of licensing their tech than they do by selling good games.

Well I'd say that that is an excellent thing...

They make tons of money by sitting around not doing much, then they pump it all into game development when a truly epic project drops into their lap.

Plus though they may not have done anything stupendous recently, Wolfenstien 3D and Doom completely revolutionised the FPS genre... Id are on their own ground here.

What epic projects? A cheap-scare flashlight-fest and a Borderlands knockoff aren't exactly projects I'd regard as epic.

If you spent any time actually looking at the game, you'd realize it's not a Borderlands knockoff. Borderlands is an RPG that just so happens to be first person. RAGE is an FPS that just so happens to have RPG elements added into it.

Derp...

On what planet is Borderlands an RPG?

So are you trying to say it's not an RPG?

Pretty much. Becoming more powerful as the game goes on does not make a game into an RPG. Otherwise, how could anyone say Call of Duty 4 or MAG aren't RPGs?

That's only one aspect of what makes an RPG. Furthermore, Call of Duty 4 (wouldn't know about MAG) doesn't use a stat based system, it uses a perk system. These games only use small aspects that are derived from RPG gameplay to enhance the FPS play as opposed to defining the gameplay.

It seems to me you're trying to stretch the definition of what an RPG is too much. I won't ever deny that many modern FPS games, and even RTS games implement RPG-like gameplay. Take STarCraft II for example. There are RPG-like elements added into SC2's single player campaign. You level up your tech tree, you pick up weapons to equip them in one of the missions. Does that make SC2 an RPG? No. Not by a long shot.

So what makes an RPG? If we take some of the earliest examples of RPG games we get the following.

Storyline driven by quests. Character progression through stats or leveling. Acquisition of more powerful items and armors (Items and armors with higher stat values).* Acquisition of improved skills later in the game.

*Worth noting that although you can acquire weapons in FPS games, there are no "+1 shotgun of vanquishing" items. In FPS games, a shotgun is a shotgun.

Since typical FPS features and gameplay style can only go so far in defining the genre (seeing as how these gameplay elements can easily be added onto another game genre... RPG for example), we must then look at what FPS games don't have.

Traditional FPS games don't have stat based items. Traditional FPS games don't have a stat or level based character progression system. Typical FPS games don't use quests to direct the storyline or player. Finally, traditional FPS games don't use skill systems either.

Assuming an even match (In armor, health and ammunition counts), the outcome of an FPS battle is determined by skill, not a collection of stats, abilities and skills.

In Borderlands, the amount of damage you do is determined by your attributes, skills, and the stats found on your guns. In Fallout 3, the amount of damage you do is determined by the same thing. In RAGE the amount of damage you do is determined by pre-set damage values. Even splash damage uses pre-set values, no luck there.

Also, arguing that Borderlands is NOT an RPG is ludicrous, and it's like opening pandora's box. If you were to argue that it ISN'T an RPG then you'd have to go back and say Oblivion isn't an RPG, Morrowind isn't an RPG, Arx Fatalis isn't an RPG. All because they are controlled in the first person...

 

[megs1120]

Look at those games, I mean, how many of them came out during this century? Id games are just tech demos at this point, they make far more off of licensing their tech than they do by selling good games.

Well I'd say that that is an excellent thing...

They make tons of money by sitting around not doing much, then they pump it all into game development when a truly epic project drops into their lap.

Plus though they may not have done anything stupendous recently, Wolfenstien 3D and Doom completely revolutionised the FPS genre... Id are on their own ground here.

What epic projects? A cheap-scare flashlight-fest and a Borderlands knockoff aren't exactly projects I'd regard as epic.

If you spent any time actually looking at the game, you'd realize it's not a Borderlands knockoff. Borderlands is an RPG that just so happens to be first person. RAGE is an FPS that just so happens to have RPG elements added into it.

Derp...

On what planet is Borderlands an RPG?

So are you trying to say it's not an RPG?

Pretty much. Becoming more powerful as the game goes on does not make a game into an RPG. Otherwise, how could anyone say Call of Duty 4 or MAG aren't RPGs?

That's only one aspect of what makes an RPG. Furthermore, Call of Duty 4 (wouldn't know about MAG) doesn't use a stat based system, it uses a perk system. These games only use small aspects that are derived from RPG gameplay to enhance the FPS play as opposed to defining the gameplay.

It seems to me you're trying to stretch the definition of what an RPG is too much. I won't ever deny that many modern FPS games, and even RTS games implement RPG-like gameplay. Take STarCraft II for example. There are RPG-like elements added into SC2's single player campaign. You level up your tech tree, you pick up weapons to equip them in one of the missions. Does that make SC2 an RPG? No. Not by a long shot.

So what makes an RPG? If we take some of the earliest examples of RPG games we get the following.

Storyline driven by quests. Character progression through stats or leveling. Acquisition of more powerful items and armors (Items and armors with higher stat values).* Acquisition of improved skills later in the game.

*Worth noting that although you can acquire weapons in FPS games, there are no "+1 shotgun of vanquishing" items. In FPS games, a shotgun is a shotgun.

Since typical FPS features and gameplay style can only go so far in defining the genre (seeing as how these gameplay elements can easily be added onto another game genre... RPG for example), we must then look at what FPS games don't have.

Traditional FPS games don't have stat based items. Traditional FPS games don't have a stat or level based character progression system. Typical FPS games don't use quests to direct the storyline or player. Finally, traditional FPS games don't use skill systems either.

Assuming an even match (In armor, health and ammunition counts), the outcome of an FPS battle is determined by skill, not a collection of stats, abilities and skills.

In Borderlands, the amount of damage you do is determined by your attributes, skills, and the stats found on your guns. In Fallout 3, the amount of damage you do is determined by the same thing. In RAGE the amount of damage you do is determined by pre-set damage values. Even splash damage uses pre-set values, no luck there.

Also, arguing that Borderlands is NOT an RPG is ludicrous, and it's like opening pandora's box. If you were to argue that it ISN'T an RPG then you'd have to go back and say Oblivion isn't an RPG, Morrowind isn't an RPG, Arx Fatalis isn't an RPG. All because they are controlled in the first person...

You make a good point, I hadn't thought about how stats enter into the equation. Still, I have to admit that I'm not really sold on the idea of Borderlands being an RPG first and an FPS second. Despite its similarity to the Diablo series, I don't think there are many people who bought the game for the RPG aspects.

Mostly, I'm hung up on the lack of meaningful NPCs and the anemic storyline. There are very few people who have anything to say, aside from a handful of people who hand out quests, and then those quests have very little, if anything to do with the plot. It's the same reason I'm not completely comfortable lumping Diablo and Baldur's Gate into the same crazy catch-all genre of RPG. I've beaten both Diablo games at least a half dozen times and for the life of me, the plot doesn't register at all. If I really struggled at it, I could probably remember bits and pieces of the plot of Borderlands, and it's been less than a year since I last played it.

In short, genres are stupid and arbitrary!

 

[Zer_]

You make a good point, I hadn't thought about how stats enter into the equation. Still, I have to admit that I'm not really sold on the idea of Borderlands being an RPG first and an FPS second. Despite its similarity to the Diablo series, I don't think there are many people who bought the game for the RPG aspects.

Mostly, I'm hung up on the lack of meaningful NPCs and the anemic storyline. There are very few people who have anything to say, aside from a handful of people who hand out quests, and then those quests have very little, if anything to do with the plot. It's the same reason I'm not completely comfortable lumping Diablo and Baldur's Gate into the same crazy catch-all genre of RPG. I've beaten both Diablo games at least a half dozen times and for the life of me, the plot doesn't register at all. If I really struggled at it, I could probably remember bits and pieces of the plot of Borderlands, and it's been less than a year since I last played it.

In short, genres are stupid and arbitrary!

Diablo is a derivative of the dungeon hack. The correct term is Action RPG. But it's still an RPG.

 

[Alandoril]

Whenever someone says "We can't do a demo" they really mean "We won't do a demo."

I remember when practically EVERY game had a demo. They were not a courtesy to the consumer they were a way of lettining them actually see if the game was worthy buying. Now most companies are content to rest on their laurels or let hype and marketing do all the work.