Rape, Feminism, and The Escapist Forums

[DEAD34345]

People talk about what they want to talk about, I don't see why they should particularly care if this "perpetuates the stereotype that all nerds or "Gamers" are whiny, neckbearded pseudo-intellectuals who can't get any". I, for one, don't give a damn about the current "Gamer" stereotype, and I'm certainly not going to dedicate any effort to alter it.

As for why this topic has come up, it's probably because the population of this site is extremely left-wing compared to the average in most places, and rape and feminism are exactly the sort of things that are a big deal to those with that kind of political mindset. It's the current controversy, and The Escapist cycles through these things all the time, including the "What's with all the X threads?" threads which pop up during them, like this one.

 

[KOMega]

I think a few very vocal members incite a whole bunch of conversation, and as such get some other people all riled up too.
And then it sorta propagates until the number of new people creating threads matchs or goes below the number of people who feel like they have had enough for the day.

Because they get forum badges.
Because they get lot's of views.
Because they get lot's of replies.

A good way to get a few numbers up on the post count too.

 

[josemlopes]

In addition it adds a bit of variety to the forum, being able to talk about things other than gaming and films.

Shit, at this point games and films are the variety (E3 balanced things out now).

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I'm not entirely certain what section I should put this in, or if there even is a section that fits it, but this needs to be said. I'm not going to lie and say that I'm a massive user of these forums, I'll browse them casually now and then, but every time I glance down at the "Popular Forum Posts" box there's a post about Anita Sarkeesian or rape or a discussion of sexism. My question is why, on a website at least ostensibly about video games are there so many angry posts about feminism and rape? Of the top ten most discussed topics of the last year, five directly or indirectly referenced feminism or sexism in the opening post. From an outsider, this seems like overkill, and I really don't see a good reason for it. At best it seems excessive, at worst it perpetuates the stereotype that all nerds or "Gamers" are whiny, neckbearded pseudo-intellectuals who can't get any.

It's pretty simple. Because sexism exists in all layers of the gaming industry. Developers, publishers, market testers, the community. Of course people are against the notion it exists, so the threads blow up as people try to explain their side.

New news pops up on the subject so more threads get made. People want to investigate the matter, or sweep it under the rug, or at least talk about it.

Anita's become a lightning rod for talking about videogames poorly, and people don't like her character, the points she brings up, and/or how she presents them. And there's a sizable amount of people that hate feminism, too.

Rape? It's largely due to the e3 event, and the obnoxious members of the community using it as smacktalk, threats, and the sort. Especially against Anita, it seems.

Of course I know there's bright spots in the community, publishers, developers, and the sort, but the tarnished bits are a bit more obvious.

 

[TehCookie]

It's the new hot topic, at least it hasn't gotten so bad they mods felt they needed to ban it like the pedophile flamewars. Then you also had the videogames are art/Mass Effect 3 ending, whirlpools, and others I've forgotten. It's just the latest trend and people want to make an entirely new topic to voice their opinion instead of containing it in one.

 

[Nowhere Man]

I'm not entirely certain what section I should put this in, or if there even is a section that fits it, but this needs to be said. I'm not going to lie and say that I'm a massive user of these forums, I'll browse them casually now and then, but every time I glance down at the "Popular Forum Posts" box there's a post about Anita Sarkeesian or rape or a discussion of sexism. My question is why, on a website at least ostensibly about video games are there so many angry posts about feminism and rape? Of the top ten most discussed topics of the last year, five directly or indirectly referenced feminism or sexism in the opening post. From an outsider, this seems like overkill, and I really don't see a good reason for it. At best it seems excessive, at worst it perpetuates the stereotype that all nerds or "Gamers" are whiny, neckbearded pseudo-intellectuals who can't get any.

I was thinking of posting the very same question myself. I've never seen a website (a primarily gaming one) with so many feminism and rape threads. Its a bummer seeing that shit every day. I have my own opinions on all of those issues. But I stay far away from posting what I feel. And for good reason.

 

[Ryan Minns]

I actually like the threads. I don't read them all but the Escapist was used heavily in my friends speech she gave at Uni.

 

[tilmoph]

Because sexism in gaming has become a major talking point, and one of the biggest and most visible individuals involved identifies as a feminist.

More generally, because gamers as a whole have distinct fear that any criticism of their favored media invites censorship. Now, before anyone jumps on me, I'm not saying that any group is calling for censorship of games right now. What I am saying is that a lot of criticism of games has lead to calls and attempts at censorship.

http://www.mavav.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_(activist)#Video_games
http://www.ign.com/articles/2010/09/14/poll-72-of-adults-support-violent-game-law

I think this a decent list of the attempts to censor games based on criticism of their violent content, which was the last major point of criticism of games that got a lot of media attention. Concerns over piracy, which got into the mainstream media, lead to the current wave of DRM, which while not censorship, is generally classed as a bad thing.

To put it simply, gamers have grown in a culture where, whenever they get criticized, someone starts trying to regulate them (DRM) or their games (Thompson et al.), where a fair chunk of the reporting on any controversy within their hobby is heavily biased against them (ME1 sex-scenes), in short, where they are frequently on the defensive. So when someone or a group of someone's come along with critiques and complaints of some measure of validity (I will not say how valid except to note "a value between 0 and completely"), the gamers first instinct is to get mad, assume another attack is incoming, and start trying to attack, or rally their fellow gamers to defend themselves. Because it has been necessary before. This is not a good environment to have reasonable discussions, but I really don't see it as an incomprehensible one.

 

[Private Custard]

snip

My theory is that we get a lot of badge-hunters (possibly like you), who know full well that a thread on feminism, sexism or rape stands a good chance of getting them what they seek.

 

[Nickolai77]

I think one thing you need to bear in mind that when I was a fresh faced Escapist user with less than a hundred posts to my name there wasn't an R&P discussion board. Instead, all debates about politics and religion as well as feminism would have gone on in the off-topic section- and those threads would have at least as many pages if not more as the feminism threads today.

Now all the politics and religion threads have gone leaving feminism behind in off topic for some reason, which leads people to think that Escapists have an issue with feminism when really it's the one topic that got left behind when all the other controversial topics were shifted to R&P.

However, i feel this probably has forced many Escapists to take an interest in feminism, and this interest is stoked further by Escapist contributors who, perhaps noting the supposed popularity of feminism threads, make sure their content reflects what users are talking about.

So, i don't think feminism was really any more or less popular than any other subject in politics and religion back before R&P existed- but when R&P was created this removed all the controversial subjects of debate except feminism from off-topic. Which has probably led to escapists to taking more of an interest- negative or positive, in the subject.

 

[Cheesepower5]

Feminists: Yeah, all these threads against us are weird and creepy.

Non-feminists: Yeah, what's the deal with all these feminists complaining all the time?

Funny how different an interpretation of something can be, depending on the views of those making said interpretation. The actual contents of the threads are far more balanced and evenly represented than any of you seem to make it sound.

As an aside, I really don't appreciate the label of these faceless misogynists as 'creepy'. As one creepy ************, I feel you're being unfair to unattractive men (I say men, because I've never heard a woman called creepy, I could be wrong.)

 

[sky14kemea]

I just wish mods would actively boot those threads to R&P, since they are not designed for OT and R&P can handle that kind of stuff. That was why they made it years ago anyways, to help curb this annual flame wars, but you'll still see nothing but political threads on OT for months. Sigh.

You rang?

The Mods don't get to browse the forums as much as they'd like during their free time, and when we do we prefer it to be "off the clock", so to speak.

However, if you spot more of these threads in future, you can always PM me and I'll move them to R&P as fast as I can!

Now to have an internal debate on whether or not I should move this one...

 

[Phasmal]

As an aside, I really don't appreciate the label of these faceless misogynists as 'creepy'. As one creepy ************, I feel you're being unfair to unattractive men (I say men, because I've never heard a woman called creepy, I could be wrong.)

Ughh... Creepy is a thing you do.
Unattractive men are not creepy because they are unattractive.
Attractive men are not immune from being creepy.*
Creepy people are creepy because they are being creepy.

*Neither are women. Hell, one of the creepiest people I've ever met was a woman.

There are just things certain people can do that just put them in your instant `OH HELL NO` category.
For example: A male friend of mine smelling my hair when he thought I wouldn't notice. Ew. Nothing to do with how he looked.

 

[Cheesepower5]

As an aside, I really don't appreciate the label of these faceless misogynists as 'creepy'. As one creepy ************, I feel you're being unfair to unattractive men (I say men, because I've never heard a woman called creepy, I could be wrong.)

Ughh... Creepy is a thing you do.
Unattractive men are not creepy because they are unattractive.
Attractive men are not immune from being creepy.*
Creepy people are creepy because they are being creepy.

*Neither are women. Hell, one of the creepiest people I've ever met was a woman.

There are just things certain people can do that just put them in your instant `OH HELL NO` category.
For example: A male friend of mine smelling my hair when he thought I wouldn't notice. Ew. Nothing to do with how he looked.

I find that people are quick to say they don't base it on appearance, but in my experience just being a big guy late at night or having dark circles under your eyes is enough to get called a creep by most people who've never bothered to get to know you on a personal level. I know that (likely) nobody means to be offensive or rude when they call someone creepy, it's just an impression that's given and taken... But it doesn't really help me see people who throw the term around in a better light. Different sensibilities, and all that.

While it's natural for guys to find the smell of girl's hair appealing, I can see how stopping what you're doing to take a nice whiff could be considered an unwanted advance. There's a time and place, but I guess that wasn't it.

 

[Phasmal]

I find that people are quick to say they don't base it on appearance, but in my experience just being a big guy late at night or having dark circles under your eyes is enough to get called a creep by most people who've never bothered to get to know you on a personal level. I know that (likely) nobody means to be offensive or rude when they call someone creepy, it's just an impression that's given and taken... But it doesn't really help me see people who throw the term around in a better light. Different sensibilities, and all that.

While it's natural for guys to find the smell of girl's hair appealing, I can see how stopping what you're doing to take a nice whiff could be considered an unwanted advance. There's a time and place, but I guess that wasn't it.

o_0....

Sticking a nose in my hair is crossing a boundary. Crossing your friends boundaries is creepy behaviour. I never thought that'd be made out to be an `advance` especially considering making advances on your female friend in a relationship is pretty damn creepy anyway.

Still... moving on.

Unfortunately there are some times people get labelled unfairly, but it's often more about them than it is about you- take it from an evil feminazi fake geek male-space invader*.

If you're examining your behaviour and not finding anything you are doing, then you don't need to worry. But if you find yourself constantly being labelled creepy, it might be an idea to try and think of something you may be doing. You said it's from people you don't really know personally, so maybe it's just unfair, or maybe you don't come off well initially.

[small]*Hah Space Invader[/small]

 

[LetalisK]

I just wish mods would actively boot those threads to R&P, since they are not designed for OT and R&P can handle that kind of stuff. That was why they made it years ago anyways, to help curb this annual flame wars, but you'll still see nothing but political threads on OT for months. Sigh.

You rang?

The Mods don't get to browse the forums as much as they'd like during their free time, and when we do we prefer it to be "off the clock", so to speak.

However, if you spot more of these threads in future, you can always PM me and I'll move them to R&P as fast as I can!

Now to have an internal debate on whether or not I should move this one...

Yes. Feed us. We hunger for virgin sacrifices!

I say that only half-jokingly. I've noticed there are some things[footnote]Nothing to do with the CoC[/footnote] people can get away with in Off-Topic and Gaming that we'd call out and dissect so fast in R&P. I wouldn't be surprised if people consider us a little stuffy because of it.

 

[The Lunatic]

To me, I suppose they're an interesting curiosity.

I'm gay, and even in that, I'm pretty indifferent towards sex.

So, a lot of the unsavoury elements of female character design are practically wasted on me.

I do think that male characters are just as badly stereotyped as female ones. However, there are some really good characters for either gender.

What does depress me, however, is the fact that every single female character is treated as some sort of substitute girlfriend by the gaming community.

The Elizabeth threads were creepy, okay guys?

What's worse, is you can't even google these characters without Rule 34 coming up. Even fucking Ellie (Of Last of us Fame, not borderlands, although...) has this going on.

It's very strange for me.

So, I guess in a lot of ways I'm curious to see the validation of this from these threads. More generally speaking however, I think there are massive gender issues on either side, and likely from some point of bias of my own gender, I think the rape being treated as "Women only" issue, the complete disregard society has for a father's claim to his children and other such things significantly outweigh a lot of the hardships women have presently.

As to why they're so popular on this forum, it's rather odd to me, this forum really does appear to have a fair population of hair triggers in this regard.

People whom every small slight does not draw a reasonable reaction but instead the raising of the "Sexism" banner.

As I said before, I'm gay, I deal with people being homophobic on a fairly regular basis. And honestly, if I reacted this way to every dumb person on the internet, I'd run out of hours in a day. It'd completely de-vault any point I'd make and would ultimately just be dropping down to their level.

So, I'm curious as to why these people do this. I suppose I've always thought it was just an attention thing. These people don't want women's rights, they don't want to further equality between genders. They just want attention and somebody to listen to them, that's why the threads go on for as long as they do.

 

[Kasawd]

Like others have said, it's a hot topic for discussion. Anywhere, really, you'll have a variety of opinions regarding exact definitions and boundaries. On top of the basic variance in opinion providing interest, it's also taboo and, by virtue of being so, an interesting read.

Hell, I don't know what I'd do for entertainment before work without the R&P forum. This is the internet, though, so one can't really rule out the possibility of maladjusted individuals.

Like myself.

 

[Cheesepower5]

I find that people are quick to say they don't base it on appearance, but in my experience just being a big guy late at night or having dark circles under your eyes is enough to get called a creep by most people who've never bothered to get to know you on a personal level. I know that (likely) nobody means to be offensive or rude when they call someone creepy, it's just an impression that's given and taken... But it doesn't really help me see people who throw the term around in a better light. Different sensibilities, and all that.

While it's natural for guys to find the smell of girl's hair appealing, I can see how stopping what you're doing to take a nice whiff could be considered an unwanted advance. There's a time and place, but I guess that wasn't it.

o_0....

Sticking a nose in my hair is crossing a boundary. Crossing your friends boundaries is creepy behaviour. I never thought that'd be made out to be an `advance` especially considering making advances on your female friend in a relationship is pretty damn creepy anyway.

Still... moving on.

Unfortunately there are some times people get labelled unfairly, but it's often more about them than it is about you- take it from an evil feminazi fake geek male-space invader*.

If you're examining your behaviour and not finding anything you are doing, then you don't need to worry. But if you find yourself constantly being labelled creepy, it might be an idea to try and think of something you may be doing. You said it's from people you don't really know personally, so maybe it's just unfair, or maybe you don't come off well initially.

[small]*Hah Space Invader[/small]

Ah, sorry... I was trying to make a humourous understatement there, but I guess it didn't fly over very well. I know what that guy did was an invasion of your privacy, I was just trying to put a little bit of levity in my post to not come off as too depressive.

Anyway, I'm just a little more bitter about my appearance than usual because I found out it cost me a job. I know that most unkind words should be taken more as a negative reflection on the speaker than the receiver, but thanks anyway for trying to give advice.

Anyway, all I really want to say is that if somebody does something that makes you uncomfortable, then it's fine to distance yourself from them or stay away from them. Caution is always well advised, yes? But it can be hurtful, to those who are often called creepy, to (for lack of a better term) pull a Rebecca Watson and just tell the whole world about it and shame those people. Because whatever the reason they get the label, I doubt most people mean or want to be creepy. Like a guy who wants to have coffee with his favourite Z-list celebrity.

 

[Phasmal]

Ah, sorry... I was trying to make a humourous understatement there, but I guess it didn't fly over very well. I know what that guy did was an invasion of your privacy, I was just trying to put a little bit of levity in my post to not come off as too depressive.

Anyway, I'm just a little more bitter about my appearance than usual because I found out it cost me a job. I know that most unkind words should be taken more as a negative reflection on the speaker than the receiver, but thanks anyway for trying to give advice.

Anyway, all I really want to say is that if somebody does something that makes you uncomfortable, then it's fine to distance yourself from them or stay away from them. Caution is always well advised, yes? But it can be hurtful, to those who are often called creepy, to (for lack of a better term) pull a Rebecca Watson and just tell the whole world about it and shame those people. Because whatever the reason they get the label, I doubt most people mean or want to be creepy. Like a guy who wants to have coffee with his favourite Z-list celebrity.

Haha, no worries! Tone is super hard on the internet. I was like whuuut.

I don't want to shame people by calling them creepy, and I don't think I ever called that guy creepy. I think what he did is creepy though, looking back I kinda do wish I had said something to him, then maybe he could learn from it.

I still maintain creepy is something you do, and I agree that people being labelled it because of who they are is unfair.