Re-Take The Cabin
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
I was going to drop in here and say, "Bob, you missed the point.", but it looks like other people already called him out on it.
I'll just add this: I am a writer, and I appreciate a wide variety of media and genres. There is a difference between a bad ending and a broken ending. ME3 was a BROKEN ending. It did not fit, it did not function.
To compare it to Cabin, which had a brilliant, meta ending, is insulting to the move, the filmakers, and both audiences.
I'm not going to be pedantic and spell out why Cabin's ending worked. You're a smart guy, this is what you do for a living, there's no need. Nor will I rehash the (very tired) debates on ME3's ending. There are entire articles and videos done by people far more invested than I ever was into "why this fails at a basic level".
Yes, there are people who miss the ending of why Cabin existed, and who, in raging at the ticket counter (I saw this, it was hilarious) manage to BECOME the elder god's rising for blood.
Yes, there are people who were pissed at the end of ME3 because they didn't get formula happy-rainbows.
But the bulk of the objection to ME3's ending wasn't "this was bad", it was "this was broken", and there is a difference. One you don't like subjectively. One does not function on a basic level. The fact that the creators never offered up any cohesive defense of their ending, but only hid behind the blanket statement of "it is art" to ward criticism, should clearly show that many of the writers realize that it is not functioning at the level they'd wanted.
They're doing an Extended Cut. This may still leave the ending as a "bad" ending, which will piss a lot of people off, but it should HOPEFULLY resolve the problems of a "broken" ending, which created the Re-Take backlash.
EDIT: EXAMPLE INCOMING... There is a definite difference between, "I didn't like that ending", and "Jesus Christ, that ending just took a poop on every scene before it, and I feel guilty by proxy for witnessing it." I hated the ending of No Country for Old Men. It was grim, it was pointless, it was depressing... and that was the point of it, so I respected it immensely, even as I thought to myself, "that really sucks, I was hoping he'd make it out". I never had the urge to go online and complain about it, because it WORKED. Hell, I chuckle about how deep it cut me, because I was that invested. It made a point, it made a statement.
The best statement that ME3's ending managed to make was "herr derr" as it bungled its own continuity, its own themes, its own characters, its own... well, just about everything. Seriously, go watch the videos with an open mind. Better yet, Bob, go play the damn games, then comment on it, since you seem to lack the ability to change perspective on this type of issue without personally investing.
I'll just add this: I am a writer, and I appreciate a wide variety of media and genres. There is a difference between a bad ending and a broken ending. ME3 was a BROKEN ending. It did not fit, it did not function.
To compare it to Cabin, which had a brilliant, meta ending, is insulting to the move, the filmakers, and both audiences.
I'm not going to be pedantic and spell out why Cabin's ending worked. You're a smart guy, this is what you do for a living, there's no need. Nor will I rehash the (very tired) debates on ME3's ending. There are entire articles and videos done by people far more invested than I ever was into "why this fails at a basic level".
Yes, there are people who miss the ending of why Cabin existed, and who, in raging at the ticket counter (I saw this, it was hilarious) manage to BECOME the elder god's rising for blood.
Yes, there are people who were pissed at the end of ME3 because they didn't get formula happy-rainbows.
But the bulk of the objection to ME3's ending wasn't "this was bad", it was "this was broken", and there is a difference. One you don't like subjectively. One does not function on a basic level. The fact that the creators never offered up any cohesive defense of their ending, but only hid behind the blanket statement of "it is art" to ward criticism, should clearly show that many of the writers realize that it is not functioning at the level they'd wanted.
They're doing an Extended Cut. This may still leave the ending as a "bad" ending, which will piss a lot of people off, but it should HOPEFULLY resolve the problems of a "broken" ending, which created the Re-Take backlash.
EDIT: EXAMPLE INCOMING... There is a definite difference between, "I didn't like that ending", and "Jesus Christ, that ending just took a poop on every scene before it, and I feel guilty by proxy for witnessing it." I hated the ending of No Country for Old Men. It was grim, it was pointless, it was depressing... and that was the point of it, so I respected it immensely, even as I thought to myself, "that really sucks, I was hoping he'd make it out". I never had the urge to go online and complain about it, because it WORKED. Hell, I chuckle about how deep it cut me, because I was that invested. It made a point, it made a statement.
The best statement that ME3's ending managed to make was "herr derr" as it bungled its own continuity, its own themes, its own characters, its own... well, just about everything. Seriously, go watch the videos with an open mind. Better yet, Bob, go play the damn games, then comment on it, since you seem to lack the ability to change perspective on this type of issue without personally investing.
Cabin in the woods was a full-length in-joke at the audience's expense. It's another case of Whedon spending millions to metaphorically lean in and stage whisper to the audience "You see what I did there?"
Agreed, it was a GOOD full length in-joke, but you're giving too much credit to the hipsters who use films like Cabin and Sucker punch to try and prove that they're smarter than the 'mainstream' by treating the subject like it's some complex subtlety, when the only way they could have spooned it on any thicker is with industrial equipment.
And there is really only one way of saying this. Shut up about Mass Effect. Your continued diatribes are neither funny, clever, or particularly accurate or relevant. I've gone from going 'I wonder what Bob's got to say on this?' to 'How much of the article is going to be dedicated to anti-retake asspain?'
Agreed, it was a GOOD full length in-joke, but you're giving too much credit to the hipsters who use films like Cabin and Sucker punch to try and prove that they're smarter than the 'mainstream' by treating the subject like it's some complex subtlety, when the only way they could have spooned it on any thicker is with industrial equipment.
And there is really only one way of saying this. Shut up about Mass Effect. Your continued diatribes are neither funny, clever, or particularly accurate or relevant. I've gone from going 'I wonder what Bob's got to say on this?' to 'How much of the article is going to be dedicated to anti-retake asspain?'
Ah, so the writers are tired of writing formula plots?
Fuck 'em.
I have no sympathy for them. I understand the problem, but I am totally unsympathetic. Understand: the writers aren't writing formula parts for free. They're writing drek, handing that drek to awful audiences, and then being handed More Money Than Humans Should Have in return.
So: fuck 'em.
They think that their job is to make art. They're wrong. They're artists, to be sure. I don't always like the art they make, but they're artists.
The trick is, they are ALSO movie-creators. And movie-creators aren't always employed to make art. But, and this is key, when they don't make art, they make ungodly sums of money.
So harden the fuck up. If you don't want to deal with mouthbreathing twats panning your film because they are literally too self-indulgent to confront their own vices being mocked in a completely impersonal fashion, then, guess what? No eleventy-zillion dollars for you. That's the gig.
This doesn't mean Cabin In the Woods is bad, and I'm certainly not criticizing Sucker Punch. But celebrities of all stripes have no cause to claim Poor Little Me when their official job description is "Shit into my own hands, spin half of the aforementioned shit into gold, and hand the rest, still dripping, to the audience."
So, of course, the longer it plays out and the more gloriously strange things get, the more the subterranean Elder Gods shake the earth with their fury and disappointment. "I didn't know it was gonna be all weird like that!" raged one theatergoer to her partners at one of my (four, so far) viewings of the film. "That was stupid! Go get our money back!" grumbled another, evidently unaware of how perfectly they were making the film's point for it.
This is almost too perfect to have happened, but I'm going to take Bob at his word here -- it was his fourth showing, he says. And I agree that those people were terrible. But again, and here's the thing: the only way to get money from those people is to feed them shit. If you don't like it, stop with the film industry and join the rest of us in gutting our education system until we have something openly hostile to Madison Avenue and most U.S. cultural touchstones. But if you want to sit on millions of dollars, do what you gotta do, but don't use your medium to be a whiny titty-baby about it. The rest of us have to not only avoid the drek you produce, we have to live with the twats that MovieBob overheard above.
Don't pile on.
P.S. -- We'll make you a deal. Turn Michael Bay's innards into Christmas decorations and you get to do another pity-party movie where evil spirits are forcing everyone to act out romantic comedy troupes. That seems fair. But Bay has to be awake the whole damn time.
The whole time.
Fuck 'em.
I have no sympathy for them. I understand the problem, but I am totally unsympathetic. Understand: the writers aren't writing formula parts for free. They're writing drek, handing that drek to awful audiences, and then being handed More Money Than Humans Should Have in return.
So: fuck 'em.
They think that their job is to make art. They're wrong. They're artists, to be sure. I don't always like the art they make, but they're artists.
The trick is, they are ALSO movie-creators. And movie-creators aren't always employed to make art. But, and this is key, when they don't make art, they make ungodly sums of money.
So harden the fuck up. If you don't want to deal with mouthbreathing twats panning your film because they are literally too self-indulgent to confront their own vices being mocked in a completely impersonal fashion, then, guess what? No eleventy-zillion dollars for you. That's the gig.
This doesn't mean Cabin In the Woods is bad, and I'm certainly not criticizing Sucker Punch. But celebrities of all stripes have no cause to claim Poor Little Me when their official job description is "Shit into my own hands, spin half of the aforementioned shit into gold, and hand the rest, still dripping, to the audience."
So, of course, the longer it plays out and the more gloriously strange things get, the more the subterranean Elder Gods shake the earth with their fury and disappointment. "I didn't know it was gonna be all weird like that!" raged one theatergoer to her partners at one of my (four, so far) viewings of the film. "That was stupid! Go get our money back!" grumbled another, evidently unaware of how perfectly they were making the film's point for it.
This is almost too perfect to have happened, but I'm going to take Bob at his word here -- it was his fourth showing, he says. And I agree that those people were terrible. But again, and here's the thing: the only way to get money from those people is to feed them shit. If you don't like it, stop with the film industry and join the rest of us in gutting our education system until we have something openly hostile to Madison Avenue and most U.S. cultural touchstones. But if you want to sit on millions of dollars, do what you gotta do, but don't use your medium to be a whiny titty-baby about it. The rest of us have to not only avoid the drek you produce, we have to live with the twats that MovieBob overheard above.
Don't pile on.
P.S. -- We'll make you a deal. Turn Michael Bay's innards into Christmas decorations and you get to do another pity-party movie where evil spirits are forcing everyone to act out romantic comedy troupes. That seems fair. But Bay has to be awake the whole damn time.
The whole time.
No, I actually saw something very similar. Mind you, the guys involved had trucker caps on backwards, profane t-shirts, and couldn't speak correctly to save their lives, so it's certainly not your average person that missed the point of Cabin.Fox242 said:
And btw, this has fuck-all to do with Mass Effect 3. Once again, Bob has become a little over-obsessed with a bit of media. What you have to get is that Mass Effect 3 was pretty terrible. I don't play Mass Effect, but I saw that ending and I've played many bad rpgs before. Did customers protest other bad rpgs? Yes, but most of them didn't make much money and so there's no real outrcry besides "that game sucks."
The problem is that the people unhappy with Mass Effects ending range over every demographic imaginable. Some are irritating twats. Some are respectible human beings. Some are amazing human beings. ME3's ending is simply objectively terrible. It's a tedious formula ending in a genre already saturated with the stuff that defies the earlier-established narrative and game structure. It fills the screen with the minimum amount of flashy lights needed to reach the credits, undermining the "epic" scale of the plot ("the galaxy is burning, so let's show these five guys!"). For a rpg, the ending is an element of the game mechanics, and ME3's ending was an example of bad mechanics. Without plot-wrap-up blurbs, the entire "choice" mechanic fails, in the same way that bad camera schemes ruin many 3d games.
So the ending pisses off a lot of different people. No matter where on earth you go, nobody likes being poked with a sharp stick. Similarly, nobody likes a bad story. To make ME3 work with Cabin In the Woods, the dev-team stand-ins in the movie would have to be complaining about making a quality product that pleases discerning customers.
I'm not necessarily down with the shenanigans associated with the fan backlash, though I think EA deserves the customers it gets or worse. But the mere fact that the customers are upset is totally legit, and anyone becoming angry at someone who is unhappy that they bought a bad product is being more than a little dickish.
The problem is that the people unhappy with Mass Effects ending range over every demographic imaginable. Some are irritating twats. Some are respectible human beings. Some are amazing human beings. ME3's ending is simply objectively terrible. It's a tedious formula ending in a genre already saturated with the stuff that defies the earlier-established narrative and game structure. It fills the screen with the minimum amount of flashy lights needed to reach the credits, undermining the "epic" scale of the plot ("the galaxy is burning, so let's show these five guys!"). For a rpg, the ending is an element of the game mechanics, and ME3's ending was an example of bad mechanics. Without plot-wrap-up blurbs, the entire "choice" mechanic fails, in the same way that bad camera schemes ruin many 3d games.
So the ending pisses off a lot of different people. No matter where on earth you go, nobody likes being poked with a sharp stick. Similarly, nobody likes a bad story. To make ME3 work with Cabin In the Woods, the dev-team stand-ins in the movie would have to be complaining about making a quality product that pleases discerning customers.
I'm not necessarily down with the shenanigans associated with the fan backlash, though I think EA deserves the customers it gets or worse. But the mere fact that the customers are upset is totally legit, and anyone becoming angry at someone who is unhappy that they bought a bad product is being more than a little dickish.
I love the way this thread is evolving. "interesting thread. But you insulted me!" Next paragraph "Mass Effect 3 I HAS FURY!"
Bob didn't insult you. This movie was not aimed specifically to spoof the ME3 debate - the game didn't exist when the movie was created. But the narrative fit the debate like a glove. So it was just an odd coincidence that the movie was released on the heels of this big fan protest when a company decided to step away from established formula. The point is completely lost on some people I guess.
Bob didn't insult you. This movie was not aimed specifically to spoof the ME3 debate - the game didn't exist when the movie was created. But the narrative fit the debate like a glove. So it was just an odd coincidence that the movie was released on the heels of this big fan protest when a company decided to step away from established formula. The point is completely lost on some people I guess.
animehermit said:
either you misunderstood what i said or i'm misunderstanding what you said.in cabin the creators gave the elder gods exactly what they wanted and it blew up in thier (the creators) faces. Whether the elder gods intended that is a whole other discussions.
in mass effect the creators failed at basic coherence and caused the ending to be disconnected from the rest of the game, story and gameplay wise. it wasn't that the fans are whining becasue they didn't get exactly what they wanted, it was because bioware advertised one thing and didn't deliver in the end.
the comparison doesn't work because Cabin is well crafted and drenched in symbolism, while ME (the end at least) is confusing lazy and devoid of any meaning. There was absolutely no way every ME fan was going to get exactly what they wanted, but not having a coherent ending or even one that provided any closure is unacceptable.
Sorry Bob, but you're just like all the other film critics out there. Making a good film out to be a great film.
I get the symbolisms but this film is neither the groundbreaker or the game changer so many tout it as. It's just another horror parody. A very fun one to watch, and one that works because it takes itself more seriously than others, but a parody all the same.
Even when act two appears, and things are supposed to go to the next level, all we get is an unintentionally cliched bloody finale instead of an intentional one in the first act.
The film is written, shot, acted, edited, and sold just like any other hollywood horror.
What's most remarkable, however, is how Bob lauds this film despite being not too different from Scream, that one film he's gone on record to say he despises the most. Both describe the rules in cliched horror films in a literal sense, with the puppeteers orchastrating exactly who dies in what order. The only difference with Cabin is that we don't get a movie buff to represent dear Bob here.
On that subject, disliking a film just because there's a character that represents you is a pretty lame reason at any rate. Serious question Bob, is it because you think you were above the other cliched members of high school? That you were somehow so unique and sophisticated that you shouldn't be represented in such a film?
I honestly thought Cabin was a very good movie. The most enjoyable film I've seen in the cinema for some time. But this film isn't going to have a profound influence on horror films of the future, nor is it going to set the film industry in a new direction in the same way that, say, The Blair Witch or The Ring did.
Perhaps I expected too much. I didn't watch any trailers, or read any reviews for this film prior to watching it. I only saw the bus advert with the distorted Cabin and the 'Ground Breaking, Game Changing' quotations. I was expecting something revolutionary, or experimental. Our generation's 'The Shining'.
What we got was just another concept movie. Maybe our generation's 'Scream'. Or the new 'in thing' for horror movies, like Paranormal Activity before it, and Saw before that. Not a bad thing, but not what it's being sold to be.
I get the symbolisms but this film is neither the groundbreaker or the game changer so many tout it as. It's just another horror parody. A very fun one to watch, and one that works because it takes itself more seriously than others, but a parody all the same.
Even when act two appears, and things are supposed to go to the next level, all we get is an unintentionally cliched bloody finale instead of an intentional one in the first act.
The film is written, shot, acted, edited, and sold just like any other hollywood horror.
What's most remarkable, however, is how Bob lauds this film despite being not too different from Scream, that one film he's gone on record to say he despises the most. Both describe the rules in cliched horror films in a literal sense, with the puppeteers orchastrating exactly who dies in what order. The only difference with Cabin is that we don't get a movie buff to represent dear Bob here.
On that subject, disliking a film just because there's a character that represents you is a pretty lame reason at any rate. Serious question Bob, is it because you think you were above the other cliched members of high school? That you were somehow so unique and sophisticated that you shouldn't be represented in such a film?
I honestly thought Cabin was a very good movie. The most enjoyable film I've seen in the cinema for some time. But this film isn't going to have a profound influence on horror films of the future, nor is it going to set the film industry in a new direction in the same way that, say, The Blair Witch or The Ring did.
Perhaps I expected too much. I didn't watch any trailers, or read any reviews for this film prior to watching it. I only saw the bus advert with the distorted Cabin and the 'Ground Breaking, Game Changing' quotations. I was expecting something revolutionary, or experimental. Our generation's 'The Shining'.
What we got was just another concept movie. Maybe our generation's 'Scream'. Or the new 'in thing' for horror movies, like Paranormal Activity before it, and Saw before that. Not a bad thing, but not what it's being sold to be.
You got it man, it's called 'paying your dues.' Anybody who's done anything artistic can attest to it.keserak said:
You want to be known for your fantastic tattoos? You spend a million fucking hours scrawling the same flash on the lower backs of buck-a-dozen slatterns.
You want to be a lauded theatrical actor? You've got to spend years doing childrens pantomimes, or suck an OBSCENE amount of dick.
You want to be a respected director? Enjoy holding the spit-bucket for the overweight lighting technician for pennies.
I don't think the directors of these movies are being serious with the message, regardless of the intent of the author. I think there's more tongue in cheek present than Bob is really acknowledging in his article. Because lets face it, when you're Joss Whedon and you have more money than God, you don't get to complain that your art movies only earn you enough to do one pound of blow off a 16 year old's pert ass.
Someone in this thread is definitely failing to understand, I'll grant you that. Please go up the thread and read my post about "bad versus broken" to get where most (civilized) people stand on the ending. Yes, there are twats. There always are. Keserak addresses that point in the post directly above yours.algalon said:
Anyway, once you've read those points, then come back. There is a massive difference here, and it's not based around "like/don't like".
Nah, if it would be like this whole re-take ME3 thing, the movie would have to go like this:
"Elder gods, we promise things will end a certain way! It will not be just 'A, B, or C'!"
*things do not end the way they were promised. Endings were A, B, or C.*
*Elder gods pissed that they were misled*
*Elder gods then raise hell*
Also this would all need to be stretched over the course of three 25+ hour games over 5 or so years.
Then it'd be like this whole retake ME3 thing.
"Elder gods, we promise things will end a certain way! It will not be just 'A, B, or C'!"
*things do not end the way they were promised. Endings were A, B, or C.*
*Elder gods pissed that they were misled*
*Elder gods then raise hell*
Also this would all need to be stretched over the course of three 25+ hour games over 5 or so years.
Then it'd be like this whole retake ME3 thing.
*sigh* Bob, just stop. Leave ME3 alone. We know you don't care about the legitimate concerns of those people. Stick to movies. Just let it go ok? That way, we can get back into the dynamic of "You bring up something neat about movies, I learn it." If you really feel the urge to take a jab at video game problems, do it elsewhere. Far away preferably.
Second that for Halo too. 'Cause we get it.
Second that for Halo too. 'Cause we get it.
Bob, did someone from Retake go back in time and kill your dog when you were a child? That's my only clue for as to why they can gain your ire even when discussing something that, at least to me, is tangentially related at best.
OT: As great as The Raid was, Cabin gets my nod for best movie of the year so far for both depth and all of those movie monsters at once. Call me appeased.
OT: As great as The Raid was, Cabin gets my nod for best movie of the year so far for both depth and all of those movie monsters at once. Call me appeased.