Record high amount of young men not having..ehm you-know-what.

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I'd say part of it is that more people are on minimum wage and living in their parent's basements, which kills the romance.

Apparently that's the issue Japan is having(I'd need to dig up the source again) where women aren't interested in dudes who don't have proper careers, which are becoming harder and harder to get into in Japan.

I wouldn't be surprised if something similar weren't at play here, at least partially.

It's cause in Japan being a housewife is still very common so if you don't have a proper career you can't afford being married. Especially if you plan on having a kid, since the cost of schools is insane. (I read this one story about a year ago regarding this public school ordering school uniforms from some fancy designer that cost close to 1000 bucks for each student, that their parents had to pay for, this is just the uniform too, never mind the other stuff, the reasoning being something about teaching kids to value their belongings and treat them with care)

 

[generals3]

That is actually not that far off . When I go clubbing or to watch bands play ect, you always have guys who will walk up and hit on every woman in the place until one of them finally says yes. How many times have they done this to how many different women on how many different nights? They likely keep doing it because eventually they will find someone who will sleep with them. So yea, those numbers will add up. The same thing of course happens on dating sites where women are greatly outnumbered by men.

Based on my totally unscientific personal experience I'm going to go with this. I have a friend who's a specialist in picking up women (and not only at the club or concert, tinder, gym, bar, everything goes) and if i'd make some stats he's probably at 20 different women a year on average. Which means that while he counts as 1 guy having sex over the year he adds 20 women to the stats on the other side. On the other hand I've this gut feeling there are much less (succesful?) female pick up artists.

I'd say part of it is that more people are on minimum wage and living in their parent's basements, which kills the romance.

Shouldn't that also apply to women? Or are men less "classist" than women?

 

[Kwak]

These figures are strange. Does this mean more women are preferring to have sex with each other? That's one way to explain the discrepancy...

Yes.


Women Over 30 Are Leaving Their Husbands and Boyfriends For Other Women
https://www.instyle.com/lifestyle/late-life-sexual-fluidity

 

[vallorn]

Globalism may have started as being antisemitic but now that there's an issue about globalization and automation I think it's safe to say most people who use it are either unaware of or at the very least don't mean to include antisemitism in their point. They're talking about stuff like companies shipping jobs off to poorer countries so that they can pay the workers low wages and stuff like that.


It comes off as a disingenuous way to deflect and protect the status quo to liken that type of concern in any way at all with antisemitism. If you're so worried about that, you wanna police terms like "the women's march" much more strictly than "globalism", but something tells me that's not happening any time soon. (and imo, policing either thing is very silly, but if I had to police one, that'd be the one)

I said the discussion was concluded.

Thing is, on a forum you don't really get to say "this discussion is concluded" simply because of the way the platform operates. People have memories, and will bring it up in future no matter what you say. It's better to let a healthy debate play out than to try and kill it and start a Streisand effect.

Good on you for actually pilling citation links to back up your interpretation of the rules though, that already puts you head and shoulders above most former CMs on this site.

 

[Squilookle]

That is actually not that far off . When I go clubbing or to watch bands play ect, you always have guys who will walk up and hit on every woman in the place until one of them finally says yes. How many times have they done this to how many different women on how many different nights? They likely keep doing it because eventually they will find someone who will sleep with them. So yea, those numbers will add up. The same thing of course happens on dating sites where women are greatly outnumbered by men.

Based on my totally unscientific personal experience I'm going to go with this. I have a friend who's a specialist in picking up women (and not only at the club or concert, tinder, gym, bar, everything goes) and if i'd make some stats he's probably at 20 different women a year on average. Which means that while he counts as 1 guy having sex over the year he adds 20 women to the stats on the other side. On the other hand I've this gut feeling there are much less (succesful?) female pick up artists.

Sounds about right. There will always be those PUAs that are either too awkward by nature or are just starting out that don't have much success, but the others tend to do pretty regular business. I've noticed that girls on a night out looking for no-strings adventure sex are far more likely to hook up with well presented, outwardly confident PUAs than the guys that amble around just hoping for something to happen.

And if the popularity of Tinder with both sexes is anything to go by, there is a whole lot of non-relationship adventure sex going on out there. And that's the type women tend to be least likely to want to talk about beyond their immediate friends. And you can't really blame them, either.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Sounds about right. There will always be those PUAs that are either too awkward by nature or are just starting out that don't have much success, but the others tend to do pretty regular business. I've noticed that girls on a night out looking for no-strings adventure sex are far more likely to hook up with well presented, outwardly confident PUAs than the guys that amble around just hoping for something to happen.

And if the popularity of Tinder with both sexes is anything to go by, there is a whole lot of non-relationship adventure sex going on out there. And that's the type women tend to be least likely to want to talk about beyond their immediate friends. And you can't really blame them, either.

There's probably some truth to this. There are far more men then women looking for temporary sexual contacts, which means that a woman who wants to "fuck and forget" has it a whole lot easier in that she's much more likely to find a man who has the same plan.

In a broader perspective, we must not forget that men have fewer close friends, spend less time hanging out with friends that are not family and tend to put more stock in workplace friends then women do. A lot more men then women find themselves without any close friends and with barely any contact with their co-workers. There have been several theories to why this is, but the one I still find most likely is that women are raised to be social and outgoing and to remember that they must be pleasing (both in looks and personality) if they want to find a partner, either temporary or long-term. Many men are still raised without any particular focus on social skills and are instead told that they'll get a partner if they have money, career success or simply never told how to get a partner at all.

With that in mind, the 10% difference number of men and women having sex can somewhat be attributed to the number of men who are simply not "on the market" at all. Remember that incels and mgtow (men going their own way) are growing movements and these are men who are unlikely to be in places and situations where they could find a partner. Women do not have similar movements and tend to have life routines that puts them in situations where they can meet a partner more often. It is a terrible shame that we don't do a better job at teaching our sons how to function in social situations, because it leaves a lot of them behind.

 

[TopazFusion]

I said the discussion was concluded.

Thing is, on a forum you don't really get to say "this discussion is concluded" simply because of the way the platform operates. People have memories, and will bring it up in future no matter what you say. It's better to let a healthy debate play out than to try and kill it and start a Streisand effect.

If we let stuff 'play out' as you say, then we get accused of being complacent and allowing people to "derail" threads.

So, pick your poison.

 

[Terminal Blue]

So, let's talk about online dating.

I think everyone knows that online dating is a bit shit. But it's shit in very different ways for different people.

A friend of mine once did a social experiment where she made a dating profile with nothing but a photograph of her cleavage as a profile picture, but all text in the profile was just out of context quotes from Slavoj Zizek in what sounded like an incomprehensible and actually kind of worrying rant.

It began to recieve messages. A lot of messages. Many of them were just what you'd expect (i.e. gross and creepy stuff) but she also began to notice something weird. A lot of the people sending messages to this fake Slavoj Zizek tits account were seemingly quite sincere about seeking a relationship. In fact, quite a few had already sent exactly the same messages to her actual profile.

Think about that. A significant proportion of the men who were messaging my friend on her real profile had either just looked at her picture and sent a stock message because they liked her physical appearance, or were so indifferent to her sincere desire for a relationship that they considered that profile interchangeable with one that ranted about being a communist phone but had a pair of tits on it.

And it's not just my friend. This is a very common online experience for young "conventionally attractive" women. This is why women stop replying to men online, why they don't feel safe to put things like "I'm into casual sex" on their profiles and why they don't generally want to meet men for casual hookups. It's because the way men behave online (and often enough in person that it's something you always have to consider) is fucking terrifying. I get this myself from gay men, which is why I've generally stopped dating them or having casual sex with them, because I've had some actually scary experiences hooking up with men, experiences which genuinely triggered that "oh shit, I'm going to be found dead stuffed in a hotel closet" kind of impulse, and I consider myself very naive for getting myself in those situations because experience has shown me you can't trust men you don't know. Heck, statistically you can't even really trust men you do know.. you just kind of have to sometimes because what's the alternative?

Incels and red-pillers have built an entire philosophy around the fact that the "desirable females" they want to date don't message them back on dating sites, assumed massive demographic trends and generally convinced themselves into an absurd universe where having the wrong shaped skull or thin wrists means you're some kind of monster who will never know human love or happiness, or that loving sexual partners will inevitably take your money and cheat on you with "Chads", or where you have to be a manipulative borderline rapist to try and "trick" female psychology into accepting them you as an "alpha".

But stop for one second, and actually think about this from the opposite perspective. Think about how exhausting and threatening it would be to recieve dozens of messages from people who clearly have zero interest in you other than the fact they can put their dick in you. Sure, it might be fun or "complimentary" the first few times it happens, and you might even get a little thrill out of it, but by the hundredth, the thousandth? What about the first time someone goes off and degenerates into a stream of insults because you respond to them with anything less than "oh yes, please come and fuck me daddy"? How many times is that supposed to happen to you before you just decide you don't need this shit and it's not worth the risk of replying at all, and this is ignoring the position of women who are overweight, or disabled, or otherwise considered conventionally unattractive, because I'm not even going to touch the stuff men send to them.

When I was younger, I had a lot of casual sex, some of which was with women. Probably far, far more than most people who self-identify as "pick up artists", and I think I can tell you a little secret to being able to do that successfully. The secret is not to try and live up to the abusive, rapey ideal of what you think a "real man" or "desirable man" is. The secret is to be extremely safe, and I say "be", not pretend to be. This means being a known quantity. You can't expect to lurk online sending people dick picks and have them want to fuck you. Join a community of people who are actually into casual sex and make yourself a known quantity within that community, be visible and open to public scrutiny, be respectful of people and their boundaries, excercise the same non-judgement you expect people to excercise of you.

In some ways, PUAs (at least, the better class of them) do have the right idea that the way to meet poeople for casual sex is to get off the damn internet, because the internet and online dating can be a great tool, but it can also be incredibly dehumanizing.

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

In a broader perspective, we must not forget that men have fewer close friends, spend less time hanging out with friends that are not family and tend to put more stock in workplace friends then women do. A lot more men then women find themselves without any close friends and with barely any contact with their co-workers.

Where are you getting this from? Is this a cultural difference thing because just about every man I know has several close friends they met years ago while their wives tend to drop/lose friends and make new ones depending on circumstances in their life.

 

[Baffle]

Poor people still have sex.

That should totally be against the new code of conduct. Can't stop shuddering.

 

[Hawki]

It's a lot like globalism really.

Much like the job market, the ability to find a potential partner from anywhere in a several mile radius rather than having a limited pool has really left some people behind.

"Globalism" and related terms are rooted antisemitism. Don't let me catch you or other users using it again. This is your first and last warning.

It... is?

I thought it was the term given to the new interconnected nature of national economies on a global scale, or how some businesses now also operate on a global scale, and even influence economies on a global scale.

What is the new acceptable term to use when discussing the current global economic situation where nations are co-dependent on one another?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalism

That said, I'm calling BS on the whole anti-semitism thing.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

So, let's talk about online dating.

I think everyone knows that online dating is a bit shit. But it's shit in very different ways for different people.

A friend of mine once did a social experiment where she made a dating profile with nothing but a photograph of her cleavage as a profile picture, but all text in the profile was just out of context quotes from Slavoj Zizek in what sounded like an incomprehensible and actually kind of worrying rant.

It began to recieve messages. A lot of messages. Many of them were just what you'd expect (i.e. gross and creepy stuff) but she also began to notice something weird. A lot of the people sending messages to this fake Slavoj Zizek tits account were seemingly quite sincere about seeking a relationship. In fact, quite a few had already sent exactly the same messages to her actual profile.

Think about that. A significant proportion of the men who were messaging my friend on her real profile had either just looked at her picture and sent a stock message because they liked her physical appearance, or were so indifferent to her sincere desire for a relationship that they considered that profile interchangeable with one that ranted about being a communist phone but had a pair of tits on it.

And it's not just my friend. This is a very common online experience for young "conventionally attractive" women. This is why women stop replying to men online, why they don't feel safe to put things like "I'm into casual sex" on their profiles and why they don't generally want to meet men for casual hookups. It's because the way men behave online (and often enough in person that it's something you always have to consider) is fucking terrifying. I get this myself from gay men, which is why I've generally stopped dating them or having casual sex with them, because I've had some actually scary experiences hooking up with men, experiences which genuinely triggered that "oh shit, I'm going to be found dead stuffed in a hotel closet" kind of impulse, and I consider myself very naive for getting myself in those situations because experience has shown me you can't trust men you don't know. Heck, statistically you can't even really trust men you do know.. you just kind of have to sometimes because what's the alternative?

Incels and red-pillers have built an entire philosophy around the fact that the "desirable females" they want to date don't message them back on dating sites, assumed massive demographic trends and generally convinced themselves into an absurd universe where having the wrong shaped skull or thin wrists means you're some kind of monster who will never know human love or happiness, or that loving sexual partners will inevitably take your money and cheat on you with "Chads", or where you have to be a manipulative borderline rapist to try and "trick" female psychology into accepting them you as an "alpha".

But stop for one second, and actually think about this from the opposite perspective. Think about how exhausting and threatening it would be to recieve dozens of messages from people who clearly have zero interest in you other than the fact they can put their dick in you. Sure, it might be fun or "complimentary" the first few times it happens, and you might even get a little thrill out of it, but by the hundredth, the thousandth? What about the first time someone goes off and degenerates into a stream of insults because you respond to them with anything less than "oh yes, please come and fuck me daddy"? How many times is that supposed to happen to you before you just decide you don't need this shit and it's not worth the risk of replying at all, and this is ignoring the position of women who are overweight, or disabled, or otherwise considered conventionally unattractive, because I'm not even going to touch the stuff men send to them.

When I was younger, I had a lot of casual sex, some of which was with women. Probably far, far more than most people who self-identify as "pick up artists", and I think I can tell you a little secret to being able to do that successfully. The secret is not to try and live up to the abusive, rapey ideal of what you think a "real man" or "desirable man" is. The secret is to be extremely safe, and I say "be", not pretend to be. This means being a known quantity. You can't expect to lurk online sending people dick picks and have them want to fuck you. Join a community of people who are actually into casual sex and make yourself a known quantity within that community, be visible and open to public scrutiny, be respectful of people and their boundaries, excercise the same non-judgement you expect people to excercise of you.

In some ways, PUAs (at least, the better class of them) do have the right idea that the way to meet people for casual sex is to get off the damn internet, because the internet and online dating can be a great tool, but it can also be incredibly dehumanizing.

You couldn't be more right. Being Online period for women is bad, not just dating sites. Even in the games I play, many women choose to play male characters and not let anyone know they are female because when people find out you are female, you start getting sent dick pics, threats and harassment that you do not receive otherwise. Some guys seem to think that females are talking about the normal BS everyone receives but fail to understand the sheer amount and level it escalates to when you are female vs making sure no one finds out you are female. It is seriously to the point it is often better for women to just pretend to be men online because it is safer to do so to avoid the hassle.

I also 100% agree that women actually are far more likely to look for "safe guys" because there are so many scary ones out there and we are so overwhelmingly bombarded by creeps that just trying to find someone you think is safe to talk to is a monumental task in itself. Like I said earlier, "A man's opinions are often likely to be one of his biggest obstacles to overcome to changing how he is viewed by women in general." It comes across as Redpillers and Incel's opinions and personalities are why women want nothing to do with them, not their skulls. TBH I really have to wonder WHY there are so many men that act so creepy to begin with? WHY are they doing these things at all? I seriously don't understand what would possibly make them behave like serial killers like so many of them do. The sheer number of men who behave this way that approach women is terrifying tbh.

 

[WindKnight]

Finally, contextually, is this implying that The Lunatic was accusing... Jews of being responsible for the supposed reduction in sexual intercourse experienced by men? Because I assure you they were not.

Can't comment on this specific situation, but YES there are people of certain political persuasions who will loudly push that very idea.

 

[stroopwafel]

I can't imagine so many young men wasting their best years in a celibate state by choice, so you can easily conclude for the vast majority a sexual partner is unattainable

While I would agree with the conclusion, the underlined wording is troubling.

Being celibate is "wasting" one's life? Does that mean that the only purpose of life is to procreate?

I would strongly disagree with that.

No, no, not at all. Just that it seem like a waste to spend years(or even entire) prime of your life celibate. Sex before aging or decline setting in is one of the most fun things about being young. You don't want to wait so long that your first time is in your late 30s and have to explain it's not her but too much coffee that you can't get it up. Even if it's outside someone's control, I think it's quite sad. I think incels, mgtow, red pillers etc are simply misplaced anger at this fate. Like a wounded dog that wants to bite everything with the wound being a deep regret.

 

[McElroy]

In a broader perspective, we must not forget that men have fewer close friends, spend less time hanging out with friends that are not family and tend to put more stock in workplace friends then women do. A lot more men then women find themselves without any close friends and with barely any contact with their co-workers.

Where are you getting this from? Is this a cultural difference thing because just about every man I know has several close friends they met years ago while their wives tend to drop/lose friends and make new ones depending on circumstances in their life.

Those are the 72%. Besides, anecdotal evidence. I don't have any close friends myself, but I doubt the reasons for that can be clearly seen with any generalization you might derive from statistics.

It is a terrible shame that we don't do a better job at teaching our sons how to function in social situations, because it leaves a lot of them behind.

What would've been the crystal ball to reveal us this development ten, fifteen years ago? I think recall when geeky stuff was just about to hit mainstream (dreaded days of The Early Big Bang Theory) people still had a sort of balance in the back of their heads and the online world could be easily separated from the real one. That's not there anymore and the balance has shifted too: kids entertain hopes of being esports stars, twitch partners, and youtubers which all require to spend more and more online and in front of a monitor.

Yes, a man's opinions are often likely to be one of his biggest obstacles to overcome to changing how he is viewed by women in general. The way men view, judge and value women by their appearance is part of the problem to a man's approach to dating in the first place. If a man looks at a woman and thinks " she's a 4" he pretty much just made himself a "0" for viewing women like that to begin with.

Surely women don't entertain the thought that men won't get attracted to looks first? When you as a teenager start realizing why you have a crush on this girl instead of that other one, there's no going back (probably speaking for myself only). When you say that the "direction" people have is maybe too different between sexes, does it boil down to "men want looks, women want personality"? Cause I agree with you that there are different headings, so to speak, but I like to be more specific. Just in my previous couple of years at the university I've witnessed how fast the topic of a casual conversation can veer into a territory men or women find utterly unrelatable (sports is a good example, even women's sports).

 

[Abomination]

Finally, contextually, is this implying that The Lunatic was accusing... Jews of being responsible for the supposed reduction in sexual intercourse experienced by men? Because I assure you they were not.

Can't comment on this specific situation, but YES there are people of certain political persuasions who will loudly push that very idea.

There are also people of certain political persuasions who believe the moon landings are fake, that vaccines cause autism, or that there are chemtrails in the air making the frogs gay.

Just because idiots profess things is not cause to infer bigotry behind otherwise contextually reasonable words.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'd say part of it is that more people are on minimum wage and living in their parent's basements, which kills the romance.

Shouldn't that also apply to women? Or are men less "classist" than women?

Certainly, it wouldn't explain the discrepancy, but might explain the increased rate.

 

[Agema]

It's because of pornography.

Why have real sex with real people when they can't live up to the fantasies people have been brainwashed with since their teens? It's just going to be an exercise in anxiety and disappointment.

* * *

I don't believe for a minute people can't get laid (with consent) if they want. What they possibly can't do is have sex with the idealised partners they want to, and don't want to 'drop their standards', so to speak. I firmly believe pretty much anyone can have sex as long as they're prepared to be less picky. And in a worst case scenario, they can always help sex workers pay the rent. For some, it's not the sex that's problematic, but where sex is tied up with relationships and it's the whole emotions and bonding and intimate talk stuff they don't really like.

That said, I'm calling BS on the whole anti-semitism thing.

Maybe. But also maybe not: I think the far right are getting very crafty at slipping their terminology and ideas into apparently innocuous statements and movements, so why not be vigilant?

Just because idiots profess things is not cause to infer bigotry behind otherwise contextually reasonable words.

One can point out unsavoury connotations to words and ask people to refrain from using them in polite spaces - as per the above to Hawki. Assuming intent of bigotry need not be done.

 

[Saelune]

Finally, contextually, is this implying that The Lunatic was accusing... Jews of being responsible for the supposed reduction in sexual intercourse experienced by men? Because I assure you they were not.

Can't comment on this specific situation, but YES there are people of certain political persuasions who will loudly push that very idea.

There are also people of certain political persuasions who believe the moon landings are fake, that vaccines cause autism, or that there are chemtrails in the air making the frogs gay.

Just because idiots profess things is not cause to infer bigotry behind otherwise contextually reasonable words.

Bigots are way more common than you want to admit, and plenty of bigots are very conscious of how objectionable they are and seek to manipulate and hide behind absurd things, and when called out rely on cheap defenses like 'Show me where I literally said the bigoted thing I was heavily implying'.

 

[Abomination]

Bigots are way more common than you want to admit, and plenty of bigots are very conscious of how objectionable they are and seek to manipulate and hide behind absurd things, and when called out rely on cheap defenses like 'Show me where I literally said the bigoted thing I was heavily implying'.

Just because bigots like to hide behind words does not mean those words become bigoted.