Something that might interest you and be useful for further research in the future:-
Gaming PC hardware revenue dominating gaming hardware sales [http://jonpeddie.com/publications/pc_gaming_hardware_market_report/]
Thats not simple PC revenue its specifically gaming/enthusiast PC hardware, everything from community size, game revenue and the sale of the hardware corroborates and confirms that the gaming PC market is larger and more profitable than the console market.
Not just out of place or fudged statistics, three separate and independent market trends.
Before anyone starts with the "PCMR" crap:- old PC and consoles [http://imgur.com/a/Sd43J] and New PC [http://imgur.com/a/xgIaS] I own both the current gen and last gen of Sony and Microsoft consoles as well as a PSV and Nintendo 3DS. I'm no fanboy and fairly objective.
Thanks for the link. i especially loved "This translates into being able to see more and a better gaming experience". Shows that he actually bothers researching the subject rather than spout "but its only pixels" like Ubisoft.
Alas i cannot afford 7500 for a full report, thats more than i earn in a year.
That's the problem with a lot of the genuine industry and sector reports, they can cost a lot and its impossible to subscribe to all of them unless you're a board member and can put in on expenses or something.
Plus $15,000 USD for the full set of reports is indeed a huge amount, they have to make all that research pay for itself somehow though.
Claiming that tablet and mobile games were included and that fudged the statistics, you changed your tune after being called out on it. Instead you arbitrarily started excluding whole genres of games or select games based on their business model, I asked you to give a good reason for this and you basically just admitted that you did it because your argument is null and void with them included.
I made the mistake of assuming that people who had made the connection before would make it again. No grasping at straws is clearly more important. Those games are synonymous with mobile and tablet games, fact. Not even going to continue to address this ridiclues attempt at a gotcha because I said something in a manner you didn't, or much more likely as you aren't an idiot are pretending to not understand.
J Tyran said:
When it was pointed out that it did indeed have a retail release you started ranting about "gotchas" and moved the goalposts again instead of just conceding that many of the biggest F2P, MOBAs and MMOs do have limited retail releases which according to your "standard" of "approval" (because you really are the one that decides all this right?) would means they can be added to the "approved" revenue pile.
I don't need to "try again", I have posted industry sources and informed analysis that have supported my points. What have you got? Buzzwords, inconsistency, arbitrary decisions.
I actually wasn't aware it did... that is me moving the goalposts how? Did I tell you that it still didn't count for its genre? No I gave you some specifications that would need to be taken into account to derive the true head to head figure for that very game... I mentioned I didn't at first when you "called me out" because I know how this song and dance goes. And there we have it, you're dancing and singing exactly how I thought. You have nothing so are targeting the fact I didn't know a game had a physical release (because I know every game of those types that get a physical release after all) as an example of me "moving goalposts" or "crafting a narrative".
Strazdas said:
Except when you compared PC and console sales by falsely claiming that consoles have larger communities.
That "Tradition" was broken in 2012 and PC has been making more than consoles since.
Makes up what difference? Social and free to play games exist on any platform. there are also plenty of retail social games with boxes (especially for Wii).
??? Where? The only time consoles came into this was A when people are accusing me of being motivated by it all which... simply pathetic no way around that. And second when I said that the same mistake as with this happened in the total revenue comparing the two "markets".
Strazdas said:
except.... that noone did. what i used that figure was to point out that most pc gamers dont buy physical but instead do digital purchasers, for which the figure is true.
So what is the head to head figures. Go on I'll wait.
Strazdas said:
bollocks. all such data would indicate than on average this would be true and would not mean so for any specific game. if anything a single game with 1 phyiscal and 50.000 digital sales would allow much deviation from average for others.
We've been through this before. If they include facebook games, MOBAs, free-to-play, and the like as downloaded PC games than the 92% figure is not honest as those games don't get physical releases to begin with. You know this yet continue to spread it as all as being completely honest. What is the actual figure without those included? Show me the source that shows that 92% figure and shows the breakdown. I doubt those games make up 0% of downloaded titles.
This goes for the digital > physical in revenue article, and the PC > Console in revenue article too but you already know that. Cooking the books is easy, so please present something concrete.
Go and read your own post that i quoted. You are shifting goalposts because you were proven wrong.
Also inclusion of MOBAs and free to play games is perfectly fine because both exist on consoles as well. you can play facebook games from consoles too though i doubt many people would want that.
Even if we were to exclude a significant portion of games that you want to exclude, the statement i was rebutting would still be false.
Why lie when anyone can go back a couple of pages and see? You responded to my post that contained that... there is no denying it. I suppose you can say you didn't actually read my post fully which is why you're saying this now... but that'd throw the rest into question and would explain a lot.
Strazdas said:
Im sure the publishers know how much the market for physical sales is considering they dont have huge shortages or massive overproduction (except nintendo, but they always have shortages). So i highly doubt it is hurting the developer. on the other hand digital sales is the number one money maker according to their financia reports. so i guess there is something to those claims, no?
Yet Physical is not actually dead yet, and when expanding from a digital only starting point physical media is what they use to expand (among other things of course).
Strazdas said:
Probably because it completely destroys your argument that free to play games should not be counted.
Please do point to where I discounted it when told it had a physical release. I'll wait.
Just because I don't when listing free-to-play which is a by the large digital only thing ever little exception, something impossible as I cannot be aware of them all does not mean my argument is "destroyed". It can mean people are grasping at any little thing to try and shield their own putrid arguments, or other more ugly things...
Strazdas said:
Rozalia1 said:
considering revenue for PC, digital in general would have to be supremely higher for that to be the case.
So accounts for 2% of digital sales on PC? Any quick Google search would blow that apart considering revenue for PC, digital in general would have to be supremely higher for that to be the case.
You taken into account all the external factors? You've not presented any evidence either, it's hearsay.
*clap* *clap* *clap* You can cut up and isolate sentences to make it say what you want it to mean to strengthen your own response, congratulations. I'll graciously accept your surrender if you're actually sinking to such lows.
Charcharo said:
STALKER SoC sold 5 million till 2013.
And 2 million TOTAL sales till August 2008.
But VGchartz says 40 000.
Lets say I had a very surreal time explaining to some ass how that is an invalid number... yet he used it anyway...
I never stated I agree with the 40 000 figure, now did I?
STALKER was released in 2007. It is an Eastern European game, made on a small budget by insane tech-priests carrying a post-soviet spirit and inspired by classics of science fiction (superstars as you would call them) and real world events (Chernobyl ring a bell?).
It did not sell 40 000 retail copies. People there/here WERE mostly RETAIL gamers. In other words, VGchartz is SHIT cause STALKER in BULGARIA alone sold around 8 000 copies...
Which means a few things:
1. Either we have ANOTHER exception... and a VERY early one from 2007... are you not tired of exceptions?
2. VGchartz cant track regions other then US/UK and Western Europe very well. *(I think in THIS case, this is the answer.*
I did not even get that first quote of yours
What external factors? Name some.
Also, how courteous of you, ohh incredible NEVER wrong EVER monolingual highly acclaimed in all matters friend To accept my complete "surrender" and "defeat"
Why would 8000 out of 40000 in Bulgaria alone be so crazy exactly? You should be all too aware that certain games have "homebases". Eastern European games have just that so selling more copies there than in western Europe/America is no huge odd thing.
The other easy example would be certain Japanese games of course... seriously I'm wondering how you thought that was actually a point worth pushing.
I didn't accept your "surrender" considering I was replying to Strazdas who purposely took a snippet off my post (not even the whole sentence) so he can act all clever about it.
When someone starts degrading themselves into petty little things like that its quite clear they don't have anything worthwhile to use.
How does this happen may I ask? My quotes make it quite easy to see who I'm saying what to.
So let me get stright. VGcharts said it sold 40,000 but it sold that much in Ukraine and another 8000 in Bulgaria... why not mention that first instead of leading with the "8000 out of 40000 is crazy for Ukraine". Anyway sources would be nice not that I have any horse in this or anything but as you're making a big deal out of it...
Strazdas quoted something I responded to you with, and to expose his shamefur dispray I had to quote myself and by extension you to show just what I was responding to. Its still quite clear I was responding to a quote with a quote as they are separate but that makes a lot more sense yes.
Claiming that tablet and mobile games were included and that fudged the statistics, you changed your tune after being called out on it. Instead you arbitrarily started excluding whole genres of games or select games based on their business model, I asked you to give a good reason for this and you basically just admitted that you did it because your argument is null and void with them included.
I made the mistake of assuming that people who had made the connection before would make it again. No grasping at straws is clearly more important. Those games are synonymous with mobile and tablet games, fact. Not even going to continue to address this ridiclues attempt at a gotcha because I said something in a manner you didn't, or much more likely as you aren't an idiot are pretending to not understand.
Games like Warthunder are synonymous with mobile and tablet games? Planetside 2? Oh yeah what about Warframe? These are core titles, hardcore games. What about EVE Online? DOTA 2? League Of Legends? Most of these games have limited physical releases which according to "The Rozalia Industry Standard of Approved Revenue Streams" qualify as "real" games.
You're peddling a ridiculous fallacy.
You say I have nothing?
J Tyran said:
I did manage to find an old article from 2009 [http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/121263/NPD_Digital_Trumps_Physical_In_PC_Standalone_Game_Unit_Sales.php] that only included AAA games, no MMOs F2P or subscription based games. It suggested 57% of the AAA PC games were sold digitally, with the year om year growth its not hard to imagine that figure is around 75% now.
-Three independent industry sources estimating that Steam alone counts for at least 70-80% of all the PC games that are sold, this matches the other growth projections since the 57% figure from 2009. Steam isn't the only game in town and Origin, Uplay and GoG must easily account for another 10-20% of the total market, that brings us easily to the reality that the major digital distribution platforms account for 80-90% of the entire market.
J Tyran said:
Planetside 2 retail release [http://www.amazon.co.uk/Deep-Silver-Planetside-PC-CD/dp/B00E3L5E6C]
League of Legends retail release [http://www.amazon.com/League-Legends-PC/dp/B002HOIPCW]
-Evidence that the games you're trying to dismiss do indeed have physical releases.
So that's what I brought to the table, a serious attempt at a discussion and bringing sources and citations. What have you brought? Whining about "gotchas" and "those games don't count because I say they don't" along with a ridiculous claim that core titles are the same as mobile games. Usually when your posting degenerates this far you fall back on your wrestling roleplay for comfort.
According to VGChatz PC games only sell a few hundred thousand copies, yet huge revenues are made apparently from the undisclosed digital revenues. That means the inescapable conclusion that most of the PC market must be digital, every single avenue of approach to the issue from the revenues, the market share and the pitiful retail revenues all point in this direction
You can spin it and try to defensively narrow your claims all you want but it doesn't change reality, you're patently and obviously wrong.
Made up example to show how statistic averages work. but of course you ignore that and try to quote me out of context.
Why lie when anyone can go back a couple of pages and see? You responded to my post that contained that... there is no denying it. I suppose you can say you didn't actually read my post fully which is why you're saying this now... but that'd throw the rest into question and would explain a lot.
I suggest you read the last line you quoted:
"Even if we were to exclude a significant portion of games that you want to exclude, the statement i was rebutting would still be false."
Games like Warthunder are synonymous with mobile and tablet games? Planetside 2? Oh yeah what about Warframe? These are core titles, hardcore games. What about EVE Online? DOTA 2? League Of Legends? Most of these games have limited physical releases which according to "The Rozalia Industry Standard of Approved Revenue Streams" qualify as "real" games.
Traditional was the word I used... though you never actually ever addressed me on those grounds for obvious reasons. Try again.
A couple of exceptions in a sub group does not make me incorrect, anybody who isn't on such weak ground they have to try and distract by attacking that would agree. If you said indie games don't make all that much money relatively does that mean I can lambaste you because there are some that do?
J Tyran said:
-Three independent industry sources estimating that Steam alone counts for at least 70-80% of all the PC games that are sold, this matches the other growth projections since the 57% figure from 2009. Steam isn't the only game in town and Origin, Uplay and GoG must easily account for another 10-20% of the total market, that brings us easily to the reality that the major digital distribution platforms account for 80-90% of the entire market.
... I'll admit I didn't much bother to read your 3 sources (one broken by the way), however that is not what they say. You're trying to push that that the 70-80% is of total PC sales (including physical), however that is not what the source says.
Though you'd not be a stranger to misunderstanding sources considering you're pushing that 92% one as something it is not.
J Tyran said:
-Evidence that the games you're trying to dismiss do indeed have physical releases.
So that's what I brought to the table, a serious attempt at a discussion and bringing sources and citations. What have you brought? Whining about "gotchas" and "those games don't count because I say they don't" along with a ridiculous claim that core titles are the same as mobile games. Usually when your posting degenerates this far you fall back on your wrestling roleplay for comfort.
According to VGChatz PC games only sell a few hundred thousand copies, yet huge revenues are made apparently from the undisclosed digital revenues. That means the inescapable conclusion that most of the PC market must be digital, every single avenue of approach to the issue from the revenues, the market share and the pitiful retail revenues all point in this direction
You can spin it and try to defensively narrow your claims all you want but it doesn't change reality, you're patently and obviously wrong.
Again no I did not discount them even with the physical releases. I asked a couple of questions that you could have chosen to answer but did not. If the physical release was out with the digital on release than unless some other factors are at work than you could very well include them in data for a head to head. However if the physical came out 10 years later as a special limited print edition with some extras than... well it'd be dishonest to take those physical numbers as having gone head to head with the digital version...
One of your sources says "Wardell said he expects that digital distribution will make up around 25 percent of the revenues "for a typical PC game publisher on a new title" in calendar 2009". Why would you use this? Yes its 2009 so you can brush some things aside but come now, use something else.
Would work better if you weren't discrediting yourself with your own sources every time you tried.
Strazdas said:
Doesnt matter. your the only one here that cares about them. they are irrelevant to the state of the market.
Its very relevant actually. Your words were something like 92% of games are digital correct? That gets across a message which I know from experience (as you bring it up to defend poor PC sales against anyone who brings them up) that you push... I questioned it and the usual characters popped out of the woodwork.
Strazdas said:
Made up example to show how statistic averages work. but of course you ignore that and try to quote me out of context.
Trying to say I did something you did to try and take some heat off yourself. You've done before so no surprise, but it simply doesn't work because I added nothing nor attacked you for it. I was actually interested in why you'd post that figure... but no I was nastily taking you out of context to... to... to... errm... something something.
Strazdas said:
I suggest you read the last line you quoted:
"Even if we were to exclude a significant portion of games that you want to exclude, the statement i was rebutting would still be false."
Nice attempt at a distraction but no I will not drop it. You called me essentially a liar for saying you responded to one of my posts with you saying you never did... I posted evidence of you doing so... so now you're going to repeat that until I give up and move on right... yeah you should know that doesn't cut the mustard with me.
Strazdas said:
And noone claimed it was? the claim was that physical market is shrinking and smaller than digital market, not that its nonexistent.
So accounts for 2% of digital sales on PC? Any quick Google search would blow that apart considering revenue for PC, digital in general would have to be supremely higher for that to be the case.
You taken into account all the external factors? You've not presented any evidence either, it's hearsay.
*clap* *clap* *clap* You can cut up and isolate sentences to make it say what you want it to mean to strengthen your own response, congratulations. I'll graciously accept your surrender if you're actually sinking to such lows.
Thought as much, you are trying to dismiss the sources that you didn't read and without presenting anything of your own. (The broken one is annoying, the archived page has some kind of issue and "will be back soon". I will try to find another link)
Just about every digital game has a limited retail release, almost every MMO with more than a couple of hundred thousand subscribers do and almost all of the popular MOBAs from League of Legends to Smite have one too. It's easier to list the ones that don't like Warthunder, however even AAA games like Batman: Arkham Knight are dropping the retail release. Does that mean those games don't meet the "The Rozalia Industry Standard of Approved Revenue Streams" now?
Rozalia1 said:
Would work better if you weren't discrediting yourself with your own sources every time you tried.
You can try to spin it that way but the reality is I'm not discrediting myself, if the data doesn't support my speculation I'm still quite happy to post it and discuss it. Unlike you I am not pushing an agenda, I'm happy to find, read and post sources were you are not. I'm trying objectively discuss, estimate and speculate about this topic.
But lets come to the meat regarding this topic, now the problem is after falsely claiming Mobile and Tablet games were involved in the statics you:-
-You falsely insist that core titles are "synonymous with mobile titles"
-Insist only a direct "head to head" comparison between retail and digital sales are are valid
-Ignore the simple of plain truth that some games only being distributed and sold digitally and/or with alternative payment models is actually a significant part of the trend by itself
These three falsehoods are the core of the matter, all of the disagreement and discussion stem from this and the three answers would be:-
-Hardcore games like Warthunder or Planetside 2 and MMOs like EVE online have nothing to do with mobile titles, they are no more equivalent with Bubble Crush and Candy Witch than Halo or Assassins Creed would be. Claiming that they are is wrong and you're being disingenuous by stating that even though you know it's wrong. Claiming that they are "traditionally" equivalent is also wrong, MMOs and MOBAs pre-date the Mobile and Tablet and social game genre as we currently know it, games have been on phones since the 1990s and those games were often recreations of early Home Computer, Console and Handheld games like Snake and in some cases the actual phones were recreations of consoles and Handhelds with devices like the Nokia N-Gage but the current market as we know it only started after 2005. The social media games and Cow Clickers that we see on services like Facebook didn't exist when MMOs started to gain in popularity and Facebook games themselves didn't have that massive popularity until 2009 which is over a decade later than the first generation MMOs like Lineage, you claim that digital games are "traditionally" like Cow Clickers but the reverse is true. They borrowed and co-opted elements from those games, MMOs and MOBAs are not like social, mobile and tablet games. The social, mobile and tablet games are like the MOBAs and MMOs.
-While "head to head" speculation is a significant portion of the topic when it comes to the decline in retail sales at the end of the day it is only part of the discussion yet you repeatedly present it as if its the core of the issue and the only thing that matters, growth in the digital market isn't only expressed in the decline of retail sales. Retail sales could undergo a contraction without a growth in the digital market at all, both digital and retail revenues could increase at the same time. There is a discussion to be had about the "head to head" comparison by itself but you're not interested in that, you defensively retreated into this single chunk of the discussion after falsely claiming mobile and tablet game revenues inflated the revenue statistics. However I do agree with some of the points you present even if I do not agree with the reasons you present them, there are compelling reasons that make retail releases viable and even necessary. Some people don't have the means to buy digital games and going into a store with cash to buy their games is the only way they can get them if they don't have cards or are unable to transfer money into a service like PayPal, globally internet coverage can be spotty and millions of gamers worldwide are lumped with slow internet and are limited to effective speeds of only a few Megabits a second or have bandwidth caps and both of these factors can make buying and downloading games that are now tens of Gigabytes in size impractical or even impossible. Some people simply like collecting the physical boxes as well, they like having shelves with a collection of games [http://www.pbase.com/gummiebear/image/129522900/original.jpg] which is understandable (even if my own personal preference is not wanting shelves full of games, DVD/BD and CDs myself).
-It doesn't matter whether you are being disingenuous or sincerely believe that only a direct comparisons between retail and digital releases and that only the traditional "buy to play" business model are valid, the rise of digital only releases and alternative revenue streams are an important trend by themselves. They are at the heart of the issue and the main reason behind the decline of the traditional methods of distributing games, the way we choose, buy and play games altogether has changed as the technology and market has evolved. If the market had grown differently and we could see into an alternative universe where digital distribution had never been invented we would probably see that the retail distribution market hadn't contracted and would have grown alongside the growth of the user base. Just as importantly we can see that games are not alone, all of the traditional retail markets have declined with digital distribution declining. The retail Games, Books, TV, Music and Movies market all mirror each other. Fewer people buy the box sets of their favourite TV series and watch them on services like Netflix or Amazon Prime, the same goes for Movies and we never saw the same explosive growth of BDs that we saw with DVDs and retail sales altogether have declined. For music the writing was on the wall a long time ago, the music industry was forced to evolve after Napster and they had to quickly meet the consumer demand for the same level of convenience and services like iTunes and Google Play are the default way we buy our music. Even that is changing as music as a service rather than a purchase grows, just like the subscription based TV and movies. Physical printed books are also in decline as people buy e-readers or use their tablets instead, all of the media markets follow this trend so games are not alone. Retail releases of all of these still happen, in some cases the collecting aspect is shared as well. Just like the people that collect the games some people like collecting the movies and music, they like having the boxed set of Game of Thrones or Breaking Bad and the same limitations of connection speed and bandwidth means that some people have little choice and are forced into buying retail.
So there we go, the three main problems with your assertions and the answers to them. Just like I have said several times I do not believe that the retail market is entirely dead or that it will ever completely die and even if a magical wizard waggled his magical wand and gave everyone in the world 100MB/sec internet without data caps for a reasonable price collectors would still exist and would want a box they could put on display. In a lot of cases we can see this expressed in the expensive "collectors" or "deluxe" retail releases, many if not not most of the big AAA games have one now. Usually it's the game with the on disk DLC activated and a bunch of cheap tat but sometimes they are pretty cool, they often have nice boxes/cases which look nice on display for people that are into that.
So you claim that I avoided your questions, you avoided some of my claims as well. We have both posted quite a lot and missing or failing to comment on everything is inevitable, you want me to answer some things? Fine ask them and frame them as direct questions and I will do my best to answer, I also ask that you address the three main issues I present here in return.
Thought as much, you are trying to dismiss the sources that you didn't read and without presenting anything of your own. (The broken one is annoying, the archived page has some kind of issue and "will be back soon". I will try to find another link)
Just about every digital game has a limited retail release, almost every MMO with more than a couple of hundred thousand subscribers do and almost all of the popular MOBAs from League of Legends to Smite have one too. It's easier to list the ones that don't like Warthunder, however even AAA games like Batman: Arkham Knight are dropping the retail release. Does that mean those games don't meet the "The Rozalia Industry Standard of Approved Revenue Streams" now?
No you see, I didn't have to read it fully as merely skimming it very glaring issues presented themselves. I listed one to you... you didn't address it because if you ignore problems in your sources they magically go away I suppose is the thinking.
Please stop with the jokes I don't think I can laugh much more. You're purposely ignoring things I've said a great many times to push your nonsense. I've given you the conditions and what I'm actually discussing which is the head to head performance between digital vs physical (vs, not in total revenue including all those other distortions).
J Tyran said:
You can try to spin it that way but the reality is I'm not discrediting myself, if the data doesn't support my speculation I'm still quite happy to post it and discuss it. Unlike you I am not pushing an agenda, I'm happy to find, read and post sources were you are not. I'm trying objectively discuss, estimate and speculate about this topic.
But lets come to the meat regarding this topic, now the problem is after falsely claiming Mobile and Tablet games were involved in the statics you:-
-You falsely insist that core titles are "synonymous with mobile titles"
-Insist only a direct "head to head" comparison between retail and digital sales are are valid
-Ignore the simple of plain truth that some games only being distributed and sold digitally and/or with alternative payment models is actually a significant part of the trend by itself
These three falsehoods are the core of the matter, all of the disagreement and discussion stem from this and the three answers would be:-
-Hardcore games like Warthunder or Planetside 2 and MMOs like EVE online have nothing to do with mobile titles, they are no more equivalent with Bubble Crush and Candy Witch than Halo or Assassins Creed would be. Claiming that they are is wrong and you're being disingenuous by stating that even though you know it's wrong. Claiming that they are "traditionally" equivalent is also wrong, MMOs and MOBAs pre-date the Mobile and Tablet and social game genre as we currently know it, games have been on phones since the 1990s and those games were often recreations of early Home Computer, Console and Handheld games like Snake and in some cases the actual phones were recreations of consoles and Handhelds with devices like the Nokia N-Gage but the current market as we know it only started after 2005. The social media games and Cow Clickers that we see on services like Facebook didn't exist when MMOs started to gain in popularity and Facebook games themselves didn't have that massive popularity until 2009 which is over a decade later than the first generation MMOs like Lineage, you claim that digital games are "traditionally" like Cow Clickers but the reverse is true. They borrowed and co-opted elements from those games, MMOs and MOBAs are not like social, mobile and tablet games. The social, mobile and tablet games are like the MOBAs and MMOs.
-While "head to head" speculation is a significant portion of the topic when it comes to the decline in retail sales at the end of the day it is only part of the discussion yet you repeatedly present it as if its the core of the issue and the only thing that matters, growth in the digital market isn't only expressed in the decline of retail sales. Retail sales could undergo a contraction without a growth in the digital market at all, both digital and retail revenues could increase at the same time. There is a discussion to be had about the "head to head" comparison by itself but you're not interested in that, you defensively retreated into this single chunk of the discussion after falsely claiming mobile and tablet game revenues inflated the revenue statistics. However I do agree with some of the points you present even if I do not agree with the reasons you present them, there are compelling reasons that make retail releases viable and even necessary. Some people don't have the means to buy digital games and going into a store with cash to buy their games is the only way they can get them if they don't have cards or are unable to transfer money into a service like PayPal, globally internet coverage can be spotty and millions of gamers worldwide are lumped with slow internet and are limited to effective speeds of only a few Megabits a second or have bandwidth caps and both of these factors can make buying and downloading games that are now tens of Gigabytes in size impractical or even impossible. Some people simply like collecting the physical boxes as well, they like having shelves with a collection of games which is understandable (even if my own personal preference is not wanting shelves full of games, DVD/BD and CDs myself).
-It doesn't matter whether you are being disingenuous or sincerely believe that only a direct comparisons between retail and digital releases and that only the traditional "buy to play" business model are valid, the rise of digital only releases and alternative revenue streams are an important trend by themselves. They are at the heart of the issue and the main reason behind the decline of the traditional methods of distributing games, the way we choose, buy and play games altogether has changed as the technology and market has evolved. If the market had grown differently and we could see into an alternative universe where digital distribution had never been invented we would probably see that the retail distribution market hadn't contracted and would have grown alongside the growth of the user base. Just as importantly we can see that games are not alone, all of the traditional retail markets have declined with digital distribution declining. The retail Games, Books, TV, Music and Movies market all mirror each other. Fewer people buy the box sets of their favourite TV series and watch them on services like Netflix or Amazon Prime, the same goes for Movies and we never saw the same explosive growth of BDs that we saw with DVDs and retail sales altogether have declined. For music the writing was on the wall a long time ago, the music industry was forced to evolve after Napster and they had to quickly meet the consumer demand for the same level of convenience and services like iTunes and Google Play are the default way we buy our music. Even that is changing as music as a service rather than a purchase grows, just like the subscription based TV and movies. Physical printed books are also in decline as people buy e-readers or use their tablets instead, all of the media markets follow this trend so games are not alone. Retail releases of all of these still happen, in some cases the collecting aspect is shared as well. Just like the people that collect the games some people like collecting the movies and music, they like having the boxed set of Game of Thrones or Breaking Bad and the same limitations of connection speed and bandwidth means that some people have little choice and are forced into buying retail.
So there we go, the three main problems with your assertions and the answers to them. Just like I have said several times I do not believe that the retail market is entirely dead or that it will ever completely die and even if a magical wizard waggled his magical wand and gave everyone in the world 100MB/sec internet without data caps for a reasonable price collectors would still exist and would want a box they could put on display. In a lot of cases we can see this expressed in the expensive "collectors" or "deluxe" retail releases, many if not not most of the big AAA games have one now. Usually it's the game with the on disk DLC activated and a bunch of cheap tat but sometimes they are pretty cool, they often have nice boxes/cases which look nice on display for people that are into that.
So you claim that I avoided your questions, you avoided some of my claims as well. We have both posted quite a lot and missing or failing to comment on everything is inevitable, you want me to answer some things? Fine ask them and frame them as direct questions and I will do my best to answer, I also ask that you address the three main issues I present here in return.
And what agenda am I pushing *yawn*. No you're simply wrong. If your sources don't support your speculation than you cannot use them to support your speculation. Had I not called you out on it you would keep claiming they somehow support you.
Either you didn't read it too closely yourself or dishonesty is going on.
Core titles are "synonymous with mobile titles"? Where did I say that, quote where I say it please. Oh and all the other things I've allegedly said would be nice (edit saw what you wrote below the point I'm addressing now... I'll maybe get round to it at some point as its late here right now)
For what I'm talking about yes. Physical is quite clearly more important... and serious business for some people in continued existence for them to willing push this angle of 92-8 when the very fact it includes digital only titles like the means that is in fact impossible. Not that the split is 92-8, no I've never denied that as I have no reason to doubt that. However head to head... nope no chance is that accurate. Now initially as that wasn't the subject people weren't pushing that but now as mean old Roz said it was wrong quite a number are.
It could also mean those companies moving away from physical see PC as not being much of a market for them and thus are saving money by using just digital, much like what happens for some eastern games that sell minor numbers in the west.
That wrong? Than talk head to head sales as they matter on that. You keep saying it all doesn't matter but it very much does... without it my claim above (which if you didn't gather I don't believe to be the case) is about as credible as your view on it.
My specifications were laid out clearly, I don't see why you can't go off that and thus work out what I'd take as being a distortion or not. Its all there so you can work it our yourself easy enough yet you insist on barraging me with these exceptions thinking it somehow proves what I said wrong... I was talking generally bloody hell. You want me to list every single game that is and isn't? Sure if you do it first I suppose.
There isn't anything wrong in what you just said. My only claim was the distortions in the data mean retail is far from dead as the head to head level should be more of 70-30 if anything.
No you see, I didn't have to read it fully as merely skimming it very glaring issues presented themselves. I listed one to you... you didn't address it because if you ignore problems in your sources they magically go away I suppose is the thinking.
Please stop with the jokes I don't think I can laugh much more. You're purposely ignoring things I've said a great many times to push your nonsense. I've given you the conditions and what I'm actually discussing which is the head to head performance between digital vs physical (vs, not in total revenue including all those other distortions).
I never said anything was set in concrete and I was trying to find information, I made it clear that its hard to find concrete data and that I was speculating. As for not addressing your point I will be frank. I have tried to present sources, points of discussion and all we get from you is the equivalent of this:- Without you presenting anything of your own, why should I bother addressing your points when you are unable or unwilling to actually address or discuss anything? You say "You're purposely ignoring things I've said a great many times" you might have said a lot but little of it is of any value, that's why I'm not addressing everything as they are what matters to me. While you have the "The Rozalia Industry Standard of Approved Revenue Streams" I have the "J Tyran Gold Seal of Forum Relevance" and I get to decide what is and what isn't worth discussing, if you get an arbitrary "I win" card like the kid in the playground with the "invulnerable everything" shield by outright dismissing things I get one too.
They are not distortions, they are part of the overall market. If anything you are distorting the argument by insisting "head to head" is the only thing that matters, that "head to head" exists in a vacuum and that viewing the entire market and the overall trends of what we play, how we play and how we pay for it irrelevant because you are fixated on pushing your narrow and limited viewpoint. You opened this discussion declaring that:-
Rozalia1 said:
No they shouldn't count because they disrupt the data and make it useless. In traditional terms Physical > Digital still as once again the likes of MOBAs and the like are included which when removed shows that traditionally physical makes more money. Does it on PC? I don't believe so in actuality (though I'd not rule it completely out) however that 92% figure cannot be correct in traditional terms (what matters by the large) if it includes those type of titles.
Take note of the "what matters by the large" again we come to the key issue that you are dismissing that the shift to alternative revenue streams and games like MOBAs and MMOs is part of a larger trend were the "traditional" titles both digital and retail are not achieving the same relevance. League of Legends alone managed to make a billion dollars last year, a single publisher with a single game making the kind of money that the huge publishers make. Then you have World of Warcraft and the dumper trucks full of cash that the game earned, the shift itself is very important and is also a key part of the "head to head" discussion as it represents correlation between the decline of the retail sales and the increase in digital revenue as people are taking their entertainment money elsewhere.
By purposefully, relentlessly and illogically focusing on part of the discussion you are ignoring the plain fact that the entire digital market is relevant to the shift towards alternative methods of distribution and alternative business models is a major factor when discussing the decline of "head to head" retail.
Consumers are not just changing their habits from buying retail to buying digital, their purchasing habits, what they buy, when they buy it and how they buy it are changing.
In your world though none of this matters, you made a mistake on a forum so the bigger and the wider picture can be wilfully ignored because:-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chapter Two
Rozalia1 said:
No you're simply wrong. If your sources don't support your speculation than you cannot use them to support your speculation. Had I not called you out on it you would keep claiming they somehow support you.
So you do actually realise that I was only speculating and estimating after all? Even in the face of this what do you do? Discuss and provide anything of value? Nope all we got was exactly like this again:-
I guess you would call it a "gotcha", should I take umbrage for the next five posts and complain about the "gotcha" and then say it doesn't matter anyway because I'm totally right? Nope, your playbook isn't my playbook so I will accept it for what it is unlike you did when presented with the fact the games you tried to dismiss actually had physical releases too.
When asked to clearly state the reasons for excluding core titles:-
J Tyran said:
Come on, give one good reason why Planetside 2 doesn't count without dismissing Battlefield 3/4 as well.
Ooops, no sorry I got them confused sometimes. They are so similar that they get mixed up when I'm lining up my post and have the peices and chunks sitting in Drive, Sorry my bad.Your response was actually:-
Rozalia1 said:
Why do you think these are some sort of "gotcha"? If there is a free-to-play game that has a boxed copy does that mean they all do? No. Does it mean I have to stop saying they are examples of digital only games... no. So your point please.
So with the fact that a number of the games you exclude having a retail release shoved in your face you openly and blatantly stuck your fingers in your ears and went "lalalalalala" and repeatedly dismissed plain facts with comments like:-
Sorry but your "specifications" are obviously inconsistent and wilfully incorrect and not even worth the value of electrons that passed through your CPU in kWh when you posted them.
You also tried to dismiss the titles that do have a retail box as "exceptions" after you witnessed the demolition of another of your fallacies :-
Rozalia1 said:
yet you insist on barraging me with these exceptions thinking it somehow proves what I said wrong...
When I have tried to make it clear that I am not talking about exceptions, its almost the rule. Almost every single big MMO (or attempt at making a big MMO that underperformed or flopped) had or has a retail box,
-World of Warcraft
-EVE Online
-Guild Wars
-Guild Wars 2
-The Elder scrolls Online
-Star Trek Online
-Age of Conan
-Warhammer Online
-The Secret World
-DC Universe Online
-City Of Heroes
-City of Villains
-Rift
-Aion
-Age of Wushu
-Archlord
-Dungeons & Dragons: Neverwinter
-Dungeons and Dragons Online
-Lord of the Rings Online
-Tabula Rasa
-Final Fantasy XI
-Lineage
-Lineage 2
-Planetside
-Planetside 2
-Champions Online
-Wildstar
-Star Wars: The Old Republic
-Vendetta Online
-Anarchy Online
-Everquest
-Everquest 2
-I'm pissed of with posting these now but I think I made my fugging point by now Online
So thats many of the big, popular and highly profitable or attempted big and popular highly profitable MMOs that are out now or have been released over the years since MMOs became popular. Some are subscription based, some are Free to Play and others either went from subs to F2P or have some other hybrid business model. As you can see they are a lot more than "a few exceptions", this list isn't even an exhaustive one either its the ones that I can remember over the years that had a retail box and went and double checked each one when making the list. There are many more than this, I have definitely missed a lot perhaps as many as long as this list.
When it comes to MOBAs many of those have retail boxes. League of Legends and Smite have one and Heroes of the Storm will have one. I'm not as familiar with those games so I cannot really come up with a list but the fact that LoL has one and that game earned a billion USD more than makes my point, a single game that earned billion dollars in an industry with total revenues (with the... /gasp "distorted" revenue included) of around 41 billion dollars last year is pretty significant all by itself.
You see another problem with the way you approached this discussion, this specific part of the discussion as well can be seen here:-
Rozalia1 said:
You have nothing so are targeting the fact I didn't know a game had a physical release (because I know every game of those types that get a physical release after all) as an example of me "moving goalposts" or "crafting a narrative".
Firstly I didn't "target" anything, after you claimed that only games that had a physical retail release could count towards "The Rozalia Industry Standard of Approved Revenue Streams" I made you aware that MOBAs and MMOs often had a physical retail release. I wasn't targeting you and I certainly didn't expect you to know the details of which games were released how, I just presented a point for discussion and there were any number of ways you could have chosen to reply to it.
You chose to be combative, This is when you made it crystal clear you were pushing a narrative rather than being simply misinformed or fallacious. You were obviously smarted because you were pushing a narrative instead of having a discussion, I'm not responsible for you pushing an agenda and the way you chose to reply. Which for the sake of completeness I will include once again:-
Rozalia1 said:
Why do you think these are some sort of "gotcha"? If there is a free-to-play game that has a boxed copy does that mean they all do? No. Does it mean I have to stop saying they are examples of digital only games... no. So your point please.
I only accused you of "moving the goalposts" after that reply:-
J Tyran said:
You can bang on about "relevancy" or "accuracy" as much as you like too, you have more than shown you care little for either as all you do is keep moving the goalposts to try fit your failing narrative.
Your response was one that somebody clearly pushing a narrative would give when they felt burnt by facts intruding on their agenda. It was contrary, combative and rude and you then whined about "gotchas" before wilfully dismissing the facts that were presented to you and you clearly moved the goalposts because you clearly said that "only games with retail sales count" but after being presented with examples of the games you tried to dismiss having retail sales as well the narrative became "well those retail sales don't count...".
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chapter Three
Rozalia1 said:
Core titles are "synonymous with mobile titles"? Where did I say that, quote where I say it please.
Okay, after being asked why you're excluding a huge swathe of games, entire genres and some of the most popular and revenue crushing core games:-
J Tyran said:
Instead you arbitrarily started excluding whole genres of games or select games based on their business model, I asked you to give a good reason for this...
This was after being asked about MMOs, MOBAs and games like Warthunder, Warframe and Planetside 2 and why they didn't meet "The Rozalia Industry Standard of Approved Revenue Streams" (By the way I will e-mail DFC tommorow and let them know that Batman: Arkham Knight doesn't meet the TRISARS and they cannot report the revenue)
Earlier in the thread you also insisted this:-
Rozalia1 said:
Social and free-to-play are synonymous with mobile and tablet games.
Making it clear you were lumping "MOBAs and the like" in with cow clickers and mobile games.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chapter Four
Rozalia1 said:
You keep saying it all doesn't matter but it very much does...
Another shining example of disingenuity on display, because me expressing that:-
J Tyran said:
While "head to head" speculation is a significant portion of the topic when it comes to the decline in retail sales at the end of the day it is only part of the discussion
there are compelling reasons that make retail releases viable and even necessary. Some people don't have the means to buy digital games and going into a store with cash to buy their games is the only way they can get them if they don't have cards or are unable to transfer money into a service like PayPal, globally internet coverage can be spotty and millions of gamers worldwide are lumped with slow internet and are limited to effective speeds of only a few Megabits a second or have bandwidth caps and both of these factors can make buying and downloading games that are now tens of Gigabytes in size impractical or even impossible. Some people simply like collecting the physical boxes as well, they like having shelves with a collection of games which is understandable...
Is me totally saying that physical media and the head to head statistics don't matter isn't it?
If anything I lament the lack of clear data even more than you do, why? Because I'm interested in the facts and while we can see the massive decline in physical media and a few direct examples by and large the big digital distribution services have no transparency.
Rozalia1 said:
My only claim was the distortions in the data mean retail is far from dead as the head to head level should be more of 70-30 if anything.
Like I have said I would agree with you, 70% of sales sounds right and I have also said I didn't believe that the 92% was accurate. The 70% is enough to represent a massive decline in retail sales, I would speculate that a large portion of the retail revenue thats left come from people that have internet connection issues (speed or bandwidth) and from collectors. I would also speculate that the increase in the volume of available and increasing popularity of "collectors editions" distorts the retail revenues to a degree, they can cost two to three or even four times the cost of a simple DVD case and some of them sell out instantly to pre-orders as they have become pretty popular amongst the older gamers with greater disposable income and that have their own living space to display their collections.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Final Chapter
-World of Warcraft
-EVE Online
-Guild Wars
-Guild Wars 2
-The Elder scrolls Online
-Star Trek Online
-Age of Conan
-Warhammer Online
-The Secret World
-DC Universe Online
-City Of Heroes
-City of Villains
-Rift
-Aion
-Age of Wushu
-Archlord
-Dungeons & Dragons: Neverwinter
-Dungeons and Dragons Online
-Lord of the Rings Online
-Tabula Rasa
-Final Fantasy XI
-Lineage
-Lineage 2
-Planetside
-Planetside 2
-Champions Online
-Wildstar
-Star Wars: The Old Republic
-Vendetta Online
-Anarchy Online
-Everquest
-Everquest 2
-I'm pissed of with posting these now but I think I made my fugging point by now Online
You want to have a discussion about credibility? Are you being serious or joking bro?
So while I made mistakes and I estimated and speculated I did it honestly, trying to objectively bring something of value. No my posting isn't perfect, yes I can be wrong but it's done honestly and without wilfully dismissing facts, deliberately ignoring the whole picture and trying to support my position with blatant disingenuity.
Footnote, the embellishments are included so my TL;DR superpost isn't simply a never ending block of quotes. Funny cats are funny and may provide some amusement for anyone brave or bored enough to try reading it[footnote]J Tyran accepts no responsibility for eyesight damage or loss of IQ due to grammatical and spelling errors that he may of made, this post is provided on an as is basis and J Tyran has no liability for any alleged damages that occur[/footnote]
Trying to say I did something you did to try and take some heat off yourself. You've done before so no surprise, but it simply doesn't work because I added nothing nor attacked you for it. I was actually interested in why you'd post that figure... but no I was nastily taking you out of context to... to... to... errm... something something.
I stated a fact that you quoted me out of context, which you did. meanwhile you still did not adress the point i was making with that example.
Nice attempt at a distraction but no I will not drop it. You called me essentially a liar for saying you responded to one of my posts with you saying you never did... I posted evidence of you doing so... so now you're going to repeat that until I give up and move on right... yeah you should know that doesn't cut the mustard with me.
Its not a piece of soap, noone asked you to hold it. I did not call you a liar, altrough you did accuse me of saying things i did not.
And yes from our previuos discussions i am aware that you will continue to use things as points even after they were disproven. That makes discussing with you difficult because you do not accept being proven wrong and just ignore information that does not support your opinion.
Been dying an awful long time than hasn't it... you got form in this dying business so I suppose there is no surprise.
Market shrinking, or as we colorfully claim "dieing" is a slow process when it gets to the niche of users that still use it as the only option. It can only truly be gotten rid off when everyone has capabilities to download things digitally and the current US internet clusterfuck is certainly holding things down. Its no wonder US is one of the most physical-heavy countries.
Expected. No, try quoting exactly where I said what you have remarked I did. Again I'll wait.
Once again, read the conversation you had with J Tyran. There is no reason to quote-dig here as that would only take it out of context.
*clap* *clap* *clap* You can cut up and isolate sentences to make it say what you want it to mean to strengthen your own response, congratulations. I'll graciously accept your surrender if you're actually sinking to such lows.
The full quote does not dismiss what i said in any way in this example. What you said was essentialy X would only be true if PC had a large market. i pointed out that it indeed has a large market.
------------------------
You know i wanted to make a longer rebuttal but the last two points of J Tyrian were so well put i dont think i can do half as well.
The vast majority of that you have taken out of context as what I was responding to, and what I had said prior in the same post that quoted (but cut) are very important.
J Tyran said:
Like I have said I would agree with you, 70% of sales sounds right and I have also said I didn't believe that the 92% was accurate. The 70% is enough to represent a massive decline in retail sales, I would speculate that a large portion of the retail revenue thats left come from people that have internet connection issues (speed or bandwidth) and from collectors. I would also speculate that the increase in the volume of available and increasing popularity of "collectors editions" distorts the retail revenues to a degree, they can cost two to three or even four times the cost of a simple DVD case and some of them sell out instantly to pre-orders as they have become pretty popular amongst the older gamers with greater disposable income and that have their own living space to display their collections.
Okay you agree so what exactly are we arguing about?
And yes I know not responding (though I read it) to that block of text will make some raise flags. Fact of the matter is I'd have to quote myself over a dozen times to try and bring in the correct context.
It'd be ignored, be a nightmare to post, and likely take hours. I appreciate your effort as a whole though the cat pictures were unneeded, and the constant attempts to mention your own buzzwords targeted solely on me devalued your post.
Strazdas said:
No, it is not relevant to the market. It may have been in the 90s, but it no longer is now. The market has moved on.
If its actually 70-30 than they are still relevant. I've talked to you on these things before, I know what you push and how you use that article when on "defense".
No me quoting your numbers isn't taking it out of context. Come now.
I added nothing hoping you'd explain why you'd use such numbers, I did not quote it and than use it for the purpose of attacking you.
Strazdas said:
Its not a piece of soap, noone asked you to hold it. I did not call you a liar, altrough you did accuse me of saying things i did not.
And yes from our previuos discussions i am aware that you will continue to use things as points even after they were disproven. That makes discussing with you difficult because you do not accept being proven wrong and just ignore information that does not support your opinion.
I've been quoting your own posts so yeah you didn't say it sure.
I've actually admitted mistakes in the past, but keep repeating that line.
Strazdas said:
Market shrinking, or as we colorfully claim "dieing" is a slow process when it gets to the niche of users that still use it as the only option. It can only truly be gotten rid off when everyone has capabilities to download things digitally and the current US internet clusterfuck is certainly holding things down. Its no wonder US is one of the most physical-heavy countries.
No you see the burden of truth is on you. When you say that you never said something in this thread I actually go back and quote it with at times also quoting what you and I were both responding to. If you cannot do the same than you simply have no grounds and should retract your statement.
Strazdas said:
The full quote does not dismiss what i said in any way in this example. What you said was essentialy X would only be true if PC had a large market. i pointed out that it indeed has a large market.
I said for the games which make a lot of dosh to only be 2% of the total revenue total digital revenue would have to be much larger. That in response to another poster was the context, you took it out to push what you wanted.
This has been known for a while. If you knew how large the game is, it should not surprise you that DVDs don't hold anywhere near 60GB of data. It would also be functionally stupid for Rockstar to crank out a Blu-ray PC release for the seventeen PC gamers that have Blu-ray and terrible internet service.
Important to remember, 60-65GB is the starting point. Patches, DLC and mods will balloon disk usage. You want closer to 100GB free space, just for this game. That is insane to type.
Yeah, damn us PC gamers who have less money in our entire systems than you have spent on storage. When will we learn to spend more money and adopt expensive new standards we don't need to not mildly inconvenience other people for the one time they need to install an application?
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