Report: Mass Effect Put on Indefinite Hold

Steven Bogos

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Jan 17, 2013
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Report: Mass Effect Put on Indefinite Hold

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Sources are claiming that BioWare's Montreal studio has been downsized, and work on new Mass Effect titles has been put on ice.

Mass Effect: Andromeda was not as well received by critics and the public as its predecessors, and that reaction is reportedly having some lasting effects at BioWare. Sources close to Kotaku [https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/05/sources-bioware-montreal-downsized-mass-effect-put-on-ice-for-now/] have claimed that not only has the developer's Montreal studio been downsized, but the entire Mass Effect franchise has been put on ice for now.

BioWare Montreal is the studio responsible for Andromeda, and last month a number employees were transferred to the studio EA Motive, also based in Montreal, to work on Star Wars Battlefront 2. Those remaining at BioWare Montreal will help support BioWare's other games including the new intellectual property that was recently delayed [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/170322-New-BioWare-IP-Delayed].

Electronic Arts issued the following statement:

Our teams at BioWare and across EA put in tremendous effort bringing Mass Effect Andromeda to players around the world. Even as BioWare continues to focus on the Mass Effect Andromeda community and live service, we are constantly looking at how we're prepared for the next experiences we will create.

The teams in EA Worldwide Studios are packed with talent, and more than ever, we are driving collaboration between studios on key projects.

With our BioWare and Motive teams sharing studio space in Montreal, we have BioWare team members joining Motive projects that are underway. We're also ramping up teams on other BioWare projects in development.

There will be much more to come from BioWare in the years ahead.

Source: Kotaku [https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/05/sources-bioware-montreal-downsized-mass-effect-put-on-ice-for-now/]

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Quazimofo

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Huh, thought Andromeda sold better than that.

Still don't really care though. There were several things they could have done to make me care about mass effect after the fuckawful ending of the trilogy, and they did none of them.

I'd say farewell to a once great series, but I already did that years ago. I'm only commenting because.... I'm really really bored, I guess.
 

Cold Shiny

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GOOD! ME:A was a total dumpster fire. I love to watch hubris destroy stuff I hate.


On a more level headed note, I like the way the AAA Industry is responding to consumers.

"Assassin's Creed didn't sell well this time? Let's take a break."

"Andromeda wasn't received well? Let's focus on other stuff."

Its nice to know that they aren't tied down to something that clearly isn't going in a good direction.

And you never know, maybe they'll come back to these franchises with renewed vigor.
 

Sniper Team 4

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So...although unanswered questions from ME:A are going to remain unanswered? Like...basically the entire game? Smooth, BioWare. I know Andromeda wasn't the greatest game, but I'd still like to know what happens. I was kind of hoping you guys would learn from the mistakes and strive to make it better--like you've been saying you were going to do--but apparently tucking your tails and running is the better choice.
Thanks. Thanks a lot.
 

AD-Stu

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Well that's... disappointing, but not unexpected I guess. I wonder if they're still going to go through with DLC for ME:A, they clearly had it as part of their plan at launch.

Quazimofo said:
Huh, thought Andromeda sold better than that.
I got the impression it was one of those projects that went on for so long and cost so much to develop that there was almost no reasonable level of sales that would make it "successful". Wasn't that the same problem Mankind Divided had too?
 

Ukomba

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All I know is I didn't buy it. Primarily it was because I was hoping for them to run with the indoctrination theory and the cop out of going far into the future and a different galaxy alienated me from the series. Then when I saw the product after it came out it cemented my decision to not buy it.

*I MAY buy it if it were on sale for $10 or less*
 

Shadowsetzer

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Sniper Team 4 said:
So...although unanswered questions from ME:A are going to remain unanswered? Like...basically the entire game? Smooth, BioWare. I know Andromeda wasn't the greatest game, but I'd still like to know what happens. I was kind of hoping you guys would learn from the mistakes and strive to make it better--like you've been saying you were going to do--but apparently tucking your tails and running is the better choice.
Thanks. Thanks a lot.
I'm pretty sure that that's standard SOP for video game companies, not just EA/Bioware. Why spend more money on an IP that's gotten middling-to-poor reactions two games in a row? They don't make them for the art, after all.
 

Shoggoth2588

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Geeze, seems a bit premature for EA to do what EA does. I haven't played this one and I likely won't for a while but the Mass Effect name is still going to draw a crowd. If this game finds its way onto the Switch or if I find it for super cheap once I get my hands on a PS4 (or less likely, a PC that can play games from this decade) I'll probably give it a shot. Despite the shortcomings of the third game, I still like Mass Effect...I just wish it was more RPG and less Action...like the first one.
 

Igor-Rowan

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Sniper Team 4 said:
I follow people on Twitter that have some insight in the inner workings of the industry, and it seems like a lot of things went wrong with Andromeda that are just now surfacing, the gist of it is that EA seems to be involved with every single problem that happened thus far, from the re-estructuring of the staff, to the funds, to the technology behind the animations, developers were not allowed to polish.

Liam Robertson hinted he knows a lot, but like us, is missing a lot of the details. In other words EA is taking Bioware on a trip to meet its friends Maxis, Pandemic, Bullfrog and the others.
 
Dec 10, 2012
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Well, this sucks. I was very happy to be surprised at how good Andromeda is, and sequels were clearly planned for it. If it really is over it will be a sad case of a good franchise killed by a shitty fan base, and that just upsets me.
 

MHR

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Sometimes it's nice to see something bad fail. There was no fixing that ME3 ending, they pushed the envelope with a lot of PC-culture meddling that made it even harder to swallow, and it was just rushed ass.

It should have ended with 3.
 

Steven Bogos

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Jan 17, 2013
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AD-Stu said:
I got the impression it was one of those projects that went on for so long and cost so much to develop that there was almost no reasonable level of sales that would make it "successful". Wasn't that the same problem Mankind Divided had too?
For Mankind Divided it was more the retarded ideas that Square Enix kept forcing in, like DeusExTV or whatever that stupid marketing thing was called. (It was expensive and no one watched it.)
 

AD-Stu

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RiseOfTheWhiteWolf said:
AD-Stu said:
I got the impression it was one of those projects that went on for so long and cost so much to develop that there was almost no reasonable level of sales that would make it "successful". Wasn't that the same problem Mankind Divided had too?
For Mankind Divided it was more the retarded ideas that Square Enix kept forcing in, like DeusExTV or whatever that stupid marketing thing was called. (It was expensive and no one watched it.)
Like the people they <a href=https://www.masseffect.com/news/esa>sent to astronaut school as part of the marketing for ME:A? :p Can't have been cheap and don't imagine many people watched or cared about that either.
 

votemarvel

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It was Dragon Age II and Mass Effect 2 which showed me that the Bioware I'd loved was fading away. They weren't bad games but it was clear that Bioware was moving away, whether by their choice or EA's, from the type of games that had gained them a following who believed that they could do no wrong.

Surely it can't just be a coincidence that 'hate' has built up around the company the further they move away from the type of games that made EA want to buy them in the first place.
 

Imre Csete

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Jul 8, 2010
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TheVampwizimp said:
Well, this sucks. I was very happy to be surprised at how good Andromeda is, and sequels were clearly planned for it. If it really is over it will be a sad case of a good franchise killed by a shitty fan base, and that just upsets me.
No good Sir, there comes a time when you can no longer blame the Toxic Community? for everything bad.

This was EA cashing in on the brand name, with the B team handling a project that was way over their heads.
 

lacktheknack

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Imre Csete said:
TheVampwizimp said:
Well, this sucks. I was very happy to be surprised at how good Andromeda is, and sequels were clearly planned for it. If it really is over it will be a sad case of a good franchise killed by a shitty fan base, and that just upsets me.
No good Sir, there comes a time when you can no longer blame the Toxic Community? for everything bad.

This was EA cashing in on the brand name, with the B team handling a project that was way over their heads.
He just said that he was surprised at how good it was.

Or did you just ignore that because...?
 

Imre Csete

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Jul 8, 2010
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lacktheknack said:
Imre Csete said:
TheVampwizimp said:
Well, this sucks. I was very happy to be surprised at how good Andromeda is, and sequels were clearly planned for it. If it really is over it will be a sad case of a good franchise killed by a shitty fan base, and that just upsets me.
No good Sir, there comes a time when you can no longer blame the Toxic Community? for everything bad.

This was EA cashing in on the brand name, with the B team handling a project that was way over their heads.
He just said that he was surprised at how good it was.

Or did you just ignore that because...?
...I read the last part of his post about the fan base?
 

DemomanHusband

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lacktheknack said:
Imre Csete said:
TheVampwizimp said:
Well, this sucks. I was very happy to be surprised at how good Andromeda is, and sequels were clearly planned for it. If it really is over it will be a sad case of a good franchise killed by a shitty fan base, and that just upsets me.
No good Sir, there comes a time when you can no longer blame the Toxic Community? for everything bad.

This was EA cashing in on the brand name, with the B team handling a project that was way over their heads.
He just said that he was surprised at how good it was.

Or did you just ignore that because...?
To be fair, saying you were surprised by how good a game like ME:A was is like saying you were surprised by how dry the ocean is, it displays a blatant lack of objective understanding of your own experiences. ME:A is not a good game, not even a passable game with solid mechanics bogged down by bugs, it's through-and-through bad. Trying to pass off all the blame for the franchise's death onto 'the community' is just putting blinders on.
 

AD-Stu

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votemarvel said:
Surely it can't just be a coincidence that 'hate' has built up around the company the further they move away from the type of games that made EA want to buy them in the first place.
I think that's a given at this point - you can blame EA for accelerating schedules, or lumping them with outsized marketing budgets that will be impossible to recoup, or for changing the focus of the games from RPG to action, and definitely for shoehorning in things like multiplayer and microtransactions or the change to Frostbite (IDK if that last one is a positive or negative - if nothing else, ME:A certainly looked pretty).

The Mass Effect production team shot themselves in the foot more than a few times too though. Not to keep bringing it up, but by far the biggest fanbase hate of the series has been the ME3 ending and that will always be on Bioware and Bioware alone: there's no way EA would have wanted that ending or the mess that came with it.
 

Zydrate

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This irritates me because I was in the middle of my second playthrough with a third run to be my chosen "canon" playthrough for the future imports.

I had a few issues with the game like anyone else but it was still more Mass Effect :(
 

Zydrate

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DemomanHusband said:
To be fair, saying you were surprised by how good a game like ME:A was is like saying you were surprised by how dry the ocean is, it displays a blatant lack of objective understanding of your own experiences.
Wait. Are you reading our minds across the internet? When some of us say "Yea, it wasn't bad" you're saying we're... wrong somehow? Like my 120 hours was me secretly not liking the game?
While I stand by that some opinions can be outright wrong, this one feels a bit dumb to me.
"I like this game"
"No, you're wrong because you don't understand yourself."
"....?????"
 

Zhukov

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Dec 29, 2009
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TheVampwizimp said:
If it really is over it will be a sad case of a good franchise killed by a shitty fan base, and that just upsets me.
"Killed by a shitty fanbase."

People seeing that a game is rubbish and not buying it makes them shitty?

Does this mean I get to call people shitty for not buying enough copies of Mirror's Edge to make it a smash hit? I mean, I would have thought that would be a spitefully petty thing to say, but apparently it's the way to go.
 

Steven Bogos

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Jan 17, 2013
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TheVampwizimp said:
Well, this sucks. I was very happy to be surprised at how good Andromeda is, and sequels were clearly planned for it. If it really is over it will be a sad case of a good franchise killed by a shitty fan base, and that just upsets me.
Man am I happy that your object of affection was so terrible everyone with standards rejected it.
 

RJ 17

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Nov 27, 2011
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Ukomba said:
All I know is I didn't buy it. Primarily it was because I was hoping for them to run with the indoctrination theory
I don't see how anyone could still have been holding out for something validating the IT to be implemented considering how the EC canonically disproves everything the IT suggests about the ending. After the EC, the only thing about the IT that has merit is the evidence that Shepard was in the process of being Indoctrinated throughout the trilogy...but much like that star that was being affected by dark energy in ME2: Shepard's possible Indoctrination was a story thread that was never developed.

DemomanHusband said:
To be fair, saying you were surprised by how good a game like ME:A was is like saying you were surprised by how dry the ocean is, it displays a blatant lack of objective understanding of your own experiences. ME:A is not a good game, not even a passable game with solid mechanics bogged down by bugs, it's through-and-through bad. Trying to pass off all the blame for the franchise's death onto 'the community' is just putting blinders on.
Granted: I agree that the studio had more to do with the game's reception than a toxic community, but that doesn't mean that you get to dictate what someone else considers to be a good game. If Vampwizimp thought the game was surprisingly good then - per Vampwizimp's tastes - it was good. You're welcome to disagree with that if you want, but there is nothing objective about personal tastes and preferences.

Your comparison regarding calling the ocean dry doesn't work because water being wet is an objectively observable fact that isn't based on personal tastes/preferences. Whether or not an individual finds a game to be good and enjoyable - regardless of whatever objectively observable flaws it may have - is still an entirely subjective matter since it is based on personal tastes/preferences.
 

TheScorpion

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What a shock.....

Like for a moment, I was hoping that between TitanFall 2 and Battlefield 1 that EA was kinda beginning to learn something finally.
But NOPE, Gotta stick to that business model!
 

Steven Bogos

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Zydrate said:
DemomanHusband said:
To be fair, saying you were surprised by how good a game like ME:A was is like saying you were surprised by how dry the ocean is, it displays a blatant lack of objective understanding of your own experiences.
Wait. Are you reading our minds across the internet? When some of us say "Yea, it wasn't bad" you're saying we're... wrong somehow? Like my 120 hours was me secretly not liking the game?
While I stand by that some opinions can be outright wrong, this one feels a bit dumb to me.
"I like this game"
"No, you're wrong because you don't understand yourself."
"....?????"
Liking a game is fine. Pretending that a mountain of failures doesn't exist because you happen to like it isn't.

Maybe come to terms that you aren't a good arbiter of quality? I like a lot of things that I'll be the first to say are in many ways poor.

Hell, what you just wrote is seldom the way the conversation goes. It goes more like this.

"I like this game. It's great. The people complaining are unreasonable and their complaints are petty."
"No, you're wrong. *list a bunch of reasons why the game is sub-par overall*"
"That's just your opinion. I think it's great."
"No, you don't get it. Everything I just listed makes this game quantifiably mediocre or worse."
"OMG, You're telling me my opinion is wrong?! How rude!"

Notice how, out of the gate, saying that "I like thing", wasn't the end? It's always followed either/both a statement saying that your affinity for this thing denotes its quality, and an undermining of the legitimate grievances people have with this thing.

There are some arses that have a bad day and say something dumb, but most of the time, people are fine with you saying "I like thing". It's always the pretensions that your shallow preference supercedes proper critisims that gets people riled up.

In this case, MEA is tat, there's no two ways about it, even the most milquetoast of gaming critics found the game lacking in many areas. That's a bar set lower than most anything. Deriving enjoyment, liking it, all's fair. Acting like it's actually a super awesome game full of potential that was misunderstood? No bueno, that ain't gonna slide with people who try to have standards.
 

Jacked Assassin

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How tragic that I got what I wanted out of MEA (A Female Turian Romance Option) and the rest of the game was so bad there will never be a 2nd & 3rd Andromeda.
 

The Enquirer

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Cold Shiny said:
GOOD! ME:A was a total dumpster fire. I love to watch hubris destroy stuff I hate.


On a more level headed note, I like the way the AAA Industry is responding to consumers.

"Assassin's Creed didn't sell well this time? Let's take a break."

"Andromeda wasn't received well? Let's focus on other stuff."

Its nice to know that they aren't tied down to something that clearly isn't going in a good direction.

And you never know, maybe they'll come back to these franchises with renewed vigor.
I do like that they aren't trying to shove it down our throats. On the other hand, it's been 5 years since the last Mass Effect game came out before all this. I don't think renewed vigor will solve the problems that arose this time.

But again, I think it's definitely an improvement over just shoving a sequel down our throats.
 

AD-Stu

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The Enquirer said:
I do like that they aren't trying to shove it down our throats. On the other hand, it's been 5 years since the last Mass Effect game came out before all this. I don't think renewed vigor will solve the problems that arose this time.
Agreed - at the end of the day though this all comes down to the money.

Whether or not the game was actually good is a related issue, though not necessarily the most important one (it's not like there's never been "bad" games that made loads of money).

If ME:A had shipped record numbers despite the quality concerns, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Work on the sequel would probably already be underway internally. Or if the game had been cheaper to make so that it was still successful despite lower sales numbers, same thing. High cost / "low" sales was always going to be a killer though.

All that said, I'll be surprised if this is the last we ever see of Mass Effect. For better or worse it's got brand recognition, and especially in today's day and age that's worth something. It's why we get endless reboots of everything from movies to games. At some point EA will decide it's time to trot the franchise out again because it's easier than coming up with another new original idea.
 

RedDeadFred

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May 13, 2009
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MC1980 said:
TheVampwizimp said:
Well, this sucks. I was very happy to be surprised at how good Andromeda is, and sequels were clearly planned for it. If it really is over it will be a sad case of a good franchise killed by a shitty fan base, and that just upsets me.
Man am I happy that your object of affection was so terrible everyone with standards rejected it.
Things like this really are just cherries on top of the shitty cake that was Andromeda. I always enjoy getting free fuel for my smugness.

RIP you once great franchise.
 

The Wykydtron

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Sep 23, 2010
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Man, I remember when Mass Effect was good and Bioware could actually write a story worth a damn. What happened to those good old times?

Ah well, at least all the other triple A games this year are fuckin' fantastic. Nier, Persona 5, Prey and probably some others i'm forgetting. BlazBlue Central Fiction managed to be the best fighting game i've played in my life and the character roster is completely unbalanced garbage! Really says something about the gameplay when I can play trash tier characters online and still have fun. I still giggle when Terumi pulls off the 8.7k damage cheese with just Overdrive'd chains from fullscreen into Exceed. Active Flow is the dumbest thing...
 

babinro

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Silentpony said:
Good. They made a bad game, they deserve to get shit-canned as a result.
Assuming this wasn't sarcastic...I don't understand this mentality. Why are we brought up to learn from our mistakes and improve but once a big project fails the answer is to fire everyone?

With that view it's amazing Zelda and Castlevania franchises survived beyond the second installments.

The Mass Effect universe has a lot to offer. I don't think one merely 'decent' installment should be enough to kill the franchise.
 

Jeralt2100

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On hold? Well, you already have Bioware's new IP coming out, plus the next Dragon Age. All this announcement tells me is that the secondary studio that they used to develop Andromeda isn't going to be allowed to touch another game by themselves. Wasn't expecting another entry in the series for 5-6 years anyway given their pattern.
 

JayDeth

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EA: Uh oh. We fucked up another one. Better hurry up and gut what's left of the development team before we inevitably shut the studio down entirely. Wonder why this keeps happening... Ah well, no time to be introspective. Gotta keep repeatedly making the same dumb mistakes we've been making for years to appease the voices in my head...
 
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I enjoyed it. If other people didn't, that's fine. I'm not saying Mass Effect: Andromeda doesn't have problems, because it does.

Clearly, despite having been playing video games for over 20 years, I'm a terrible gamer, though, simply because I can look past the flaws and still enjoy the game.

Is it as good as the other Mass Effect games? No. Is it a bad game? I don't personally think so.

The news that it's been put on hold isn't all that surprising, though. Right now, the team (as it is) seems to be putting most of its effort into fixing the problems with Mass Effect: Andromeda. I'd rather they put any future plans on hold until they are done with this one than try to split their focus.

Also, since when is "moving people to different studios to work on other games in development" the same thing as "downsizing"? To me, downsizing would be letting people go, not simply moving them to where they are most needed.

I don't know, maybe I'm foolishly optimistic, but I find the reaction to the information to be a bit hasty.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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I guess they would have to phrase it in that fashion to not scare away investors. Honestly, this awfully lawyerly phrasing doesn't inspire confidence in any real people, or so I'd think.


Ah well, Persona 5 exists so all is well.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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babinro said:
Silentpony said:
Good. They made a bad game, they deserve to get shit-canned as a result.
Assuming this wasn't sarcastic...I don't understand this mentality. Why are we brought up to learn from our mistakes and improve but once a big project fails the answer is to fire everyone?

With that view it's amazing Zelda and Castlevania franchises survived beyond the second installments.

The Mass Effect universe has a lot to offer. I don't think one merely 'decent' installment should be enough to kill the franchise.
What school did you go to?! When I got the answer wrong on a test, I was marked wrong. When I failed a class, I failed. No one said "Oh, well at least you tried your best, and as we all know, in Calculus, its the thought that counts..."

In the real world when you fail a project, you're fired. You don't still go on to the next grade or get a chance to repeat the class. You failed, you're fired.
 

AD-Stu

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Silentpony said:
What school did you go to?! When I got the answer wrong on a test, I was marked wrong. When I failed a class, I failed. No one said "Oh, well at least you tried your best, and as we all know, in Calculus, its the thought that counts..."

In the real world when you fail a project, you're fired. You don't still go on to the next grade or get a chance to repeat the class. You failed, you're fired.
Obviously there are some failures that justify firing. But in the real world, people often don't get fired just because they make a mistake - especially people and projects a company has made significant investments in that can be salvaged or put to future use. Even on a purely economic basis, it's usually cheaper to get the same person/team/whatever to learn from their mistake and do better next time than it is to burn everything to the ground and start over with new people you'll have to retrain from scratch.

Arguing otherwise is arguing that companies don't like money... and that's not an argument you're likely to win ;)
 

lacktheknack

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DemomanHusband said:
lacktheknack said:
Imre Csete said:
TheVampwizimp said:
Well, this sucks. I was very happy to be surprised at how good Andromeda is, and sequels were clearly planned for it. If it really is over it will be a sad case of a good franchise killed by a shitty fan base, and that just upsets me.
No good Sir, there comes a time when you can no longer blame the Toxic Community? for everything bad.

This was EA cashing in on the brand name, with the B team handling a project that was way over their heads.
He just said that he was surprised at how good it was.

Or did you just ignore that because...?
To be fair, saying you were surprised by how good a game like ME:A was is like saying you were surprised by how dry the ocean is, it displays a blatant lack of objective understanding of your own experiences. ME:A is not a good game, not even a passable game with solid mechanics bogged down by bugs, it's through-and-through bad. Trying to pass off all the blame for the franchise's death onto 'the community' is just putting blinders on.
"lack of objective understanding of your own experience"

Stop. PLEASE stop. You're making yourself look so bad.
 

DemomanHusband

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Zydrate said:
DemomanHusband said:
To be fair, saying you were surprised by how good a game like ME:A was is like saying you were surprised by how dry the ocean is, it displays a blatant lack of objective understanding of your own experiences.
Wait. Are you reading our minds across the internet? When some of us say "Yea, it wasn't bad" you're saying we're... wrong somehow? Like my 120 hours was me secretly not liking the game?
While I stand by that some opinions can be outright wrong, this one feels a bit dumb to me.
"I like this game"
"No, you're wrong because you don't understand yourself."
"....?????"
I'm not saying you secretly didn't like the game. I'm saying that anyone going through a game as thoroughly broken as Mass Effect Andromeda for an extended period of time and saying that in the end the game was good in any respect is wrong. I played Dragon Age Inquisition, I know the song and dance here. You overlook the game's faults, the oily skin textures, the weirdly shifting quality in voice acting, the writing that goes from "Discourse on Orlais" to "Isn't the word trousers charming when it's coming out of a really weird looking elf's badly lip-synced mouth?" Mass Effect Andromeda is simply a Sci-Fi Inquisition (I guess both literally and thematically in some ways) and the fact that anyone here has the gall to say a game like this can be good... I won't say it sickens me, but it makes me question where people's standards have gone.

The only thing remotely fun in Inquisition was the multiplayer, in a mindless way. Never mind the ruination of Qunari lore, never mind #RideTheBull, never mind the fact that your only interesting companion was basically the Nu-Star Trek Spock as an elf with some Cumberbatch genes mixed in for good measure; I liked the multiplayer. This does not mean it was surprisingly good. Quite the opposite, the very fact that this one bit of the game was even anywhere near tolerable made the collective experience even more draining.

To the other fellow claiming I used a false equivalence, tell me that Mass Effect Andromeda is not absolutely devoid of quality. Tell me its destitute animation budget and by the numbers gameplay are not factually indicative of a poorly managed development cycle. Tell me that the writing team consistently shitting on their own universe for the sake of pandering to an audience who either doesn't exist or only cares about finding new things to complain about isn't a clear indicator of a bad game's bad writing. Not only that, even their non-pandering bits are just awful. "Let's get naked and size each other up to get a feel for our species so the protagonist can walk in on us! Oh, and let's be all snarky, too." Oh wait, that's still pandering.

So, once more. I'm not saying that you're wrong about liking the game, you can do that all you like. I'm saying you are wrong for liking it. There's liking something for how bad it is, and there's this. Call me an ass, call me whatever, frankly I'm more than a bit sad that we've got people defending ME:A of all things here. I feel genuinely bad for anyone who wasted their time with it.

Yeesh, apologies for the rant, but damn.
 

Cether

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I like how everyone in this thread is pretending that ME:A didn't get average to good reviews. Listening to the shit storm surrounding the game you'd think ME:A was garbage on the level of some of the worst games released, yet when I played it the game was actually pretty decent. It had several great quests, the worlds were surprisingly enjoyable to traverse. The main quests were all good. Combat is fun and you can build your characters multiple ways and have a very different but effective playstyle even on Insanity.

Yes it had problems, no it's not one of the greatest games released this year, but it wasn't *bad*. It was good. Just good.

That's not enough for Bioware though, every game they release has to be the greatest game ever released or fans will throw the biggest ***** fest this world has ever seen.
 

Dalsyne

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It's too bad. It was a game with great potential and it was clear a lot of people worked hard on it if you look at its systems and the sheer amount of content on display.

A lot of other people didn't, which is the problem. But there was nothing wrong per se with it as a game, and this is a title that could've benefited from some lessons learned.

I don't think it was killed off by its fanbase as some people are saying... well, every game lives or dies by its fanbase, but you know what I mean. It was an objectively janky game that didn't live up to modern storytelling standards, all while storytelling was supposed to be its biggest strength.
 

TT Kairen

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Sniper Team 4 said:
So...although unanswered questions from ME:A are going to remain unanswered? Like...basically the entire game? Smooth, BioWare. I know Andromeda wasn't the greatest game, but I'd still like to know what happens. I was kind of hoping you guys would learn from the mistakes and strive to make it better--like you've been saying you were going to do--but apparently tucking your tails and running is the better choice.
Thanks. Thanks a lot.
Blame the "fans", savaging a game as if it were the apocalypse heralded by Satan himself when it was mediocre at worst, and perhaps could have used another month or two in the oven to iron out some kinks.
 

AD-Stu

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Interesting timing on this BTW - this story comes out, and pretty much same day they put out the 1.06 patch for the game...
 

Joccaren

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TT Kairen said:
Sniper Team 4 said:
So...although unanswered questions from ME:A are going to remain unanswered? Like...basically the entire game? Smooth, BioWare. I know Andromeda wasn't the greatest game, but I'd still like to know what happens. I was kind of hoping you guys would learn from the mistakes and strive to make it better--like you've been saying you were going to do--but apparently tucking your tails and running is the better choice.
Thanks. Thanks a lot.
Blame the "fans", savaging a game as if it were the apocalypse heralded by Satan himself when it was mediocre at worst, and perhaps could have used another month or two in the oven to iron out some kinks.
Blame the company for releasing it those one or two months early and selling a lot of people an unfinished game, thus garnering much deserved criticism.

Also, fan criticism isn't enough to kill a franchise. Look at ME3. Its poor sales. Why poor sales? Because they fucked up. More than it not selling well, they tried to cram too much BS in and over extended the budget to such a huge extent that the game quite simply could not be successful.

From EAs perspective, it is rather obvious that the team can't create a game on budget. The game requires a lot of work to fix, and took a ton of work to create. It downright cannot sell well enough to earn back that money. The team is unlikely to downsize the game. EA also has a hand in this, and themselves don't want to downsize the game, and thus its not going to be profitable.


Blame people who have more refined tastes all you want, but they're not the reason MEA fucked up. I don't even think its a terrible game, its just poorly built and overall mediocre at best. Its better than 3, but that's not saying much. Its on EA and Bioware for spending such a ridiculously huge budget and not making it a high quality product. Consumers are not required to purchase a product because you enjoyed it. Its not their fault that the game wasn't good enough to get the sort of sales Bioware and EA wanted. Its EA and Bioware's fault.
 

Quazimofo

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MC1980 said:
Zydrate said:
DemomanHusband said:
snip
snip
He wasn't providing an example of how the conversation normally goes, he was summarizing the conversation as it just happened. You're putting words in his mouth.

DemomanHusband said:
snicker-snack

So, once more. I'm not saying that you're wrong about liking the game, you can do that all you like. I'm saying you are wrong for liking it. There's liking something for how bad it is, and there's this. Call me an ass, call me whatever, frankly I'm more than a bit sad that we've got people defending ME:A of all things here. I feel genuinely bad for anyone who wasted their time with it.

Yeesh, apologies for the rant, but damn.
You're not an asshole, or even a mean person. You're just mistakenly equating your personal tastes with fact. Dragon Age Inquisition for example: I liked a few of the companions, and I thought Solas was the least interesting by a significant margin. Blackwall's twist added an interesting dimension to his character, and Iron Bull's conflict between the life he has as effectively a deep cover agent and his obligations to the Qunari I found engaging (even though the personal quest was so... lazy).

I also found the combat horribly boring, the quest design, at best, mediocre outside of the setpiece quests (and even those were of mixed quality), the war table was a neat idea with timers that were way too goddamn long, and the game generally had too much tedium to wade through between the interesting moments.

My point? I think inquisition is a bad game, but every complaint I have about it is subjective, and people who believe that the 'good' parts of the game outweigh the 'bad', aren't any more or less correct by saying it's a good game. I may have serious about their standards, but that doesn't make me objectively right in my judgement of that game.

I've watched videos of Mass Effect Andromeda, including quest playthroughs (I'm a uni student, so I had neither the time nor the money to play it when it came out). It may be the antithesis to anything and everything you expected from a Mass Effect game and loved from that franchise, but that doesn't make it objectively bad. It's an artwork at the end of the day. You can argue technical skill, and the quality of any individual aspect, but the final verdict of 'bad' or 'good' is not an objective fact, because 'Good' and 'Bad' are not objective terms

Other examples to illustrate the point: People still defend Justin Beiber's work. People spent money to buy a copy of 'Gangnam Style', and it wasn't just for the lulz. People unironically enjoy Adam Sandler's recent films. People think Mass Effect 3 had a good conclusion to the series.

I'm not saying Andromeda was good, I just disagree with your argument that someone can be objectively wrong about enjoying something.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

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Sep 8, 2011
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I think that if EA were to hire one of millions of original trilogy fans they'd be able to come up with a better game than Andromeda. It's not that difficult. Now they're back at making the same mistakes that giant publishers make over and over again. The kind of mistakes that they end up having to apologize for and promise never to make again, only to continue making them regardless. The apology effect of major companies like EA lasts for one game and then they're instantly back at being money grabbing whores with no vision. But can we truly blame them when the gamers are the ones who keep falling for it?

The ultimate message is to STOP PREORDERING GAMES!
 

Quellist

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Oct 7, 2010
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When will you learn EA? This is what happens when you takeover an award-winning studio and decide that you'll make its games more Marketable...
 

Jamcie Kerbizz

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Zydrate said:
Assuming this wasn't sarcastic...I don't understand this mentality. Why are we brought up to learn from our mistakes and improve but once a big project fails the answer is to fire everyone?

With that view it's amazing Zelda and Castlevania franchises survived beyond the second installments.

The Mass Effect universe has a lot to offer. I don't think one merely 'decent' installment should be enough to kill the franchise.
It's the real life mentality. You are brought up like that the same way you have training wheels on your bike at first. To not disencourage or damage frail mind/body. Reality works different though, it's a miracle if you mess up but get second chance.

Just watch EA drag screaming Bioware behind the shed to put a merciful bullet through its empty ghoulish husk. Life lesson learned.
 

pookie101

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i will admit i was so disappointed with andromeda after playing it for a few hours.. it just didnt feel like mass effect to me.

i went back to it after they fixed the googly eyes and played it through and it took me a good 25-30 hours before it grew on me, it still doesnt feel completely mass effect and might of been better off being a new IP but i have to say by the end i was enjoying myself and my ryder.

yay the new patch means sam wont be telling me every 30 seconds i have new mail when on the ship, oh and they upped weapon damage to.. interesting.

that said its sad for us who did grow to like the story, i would of liked to of seen where the series went and have some of the questions answered like who are the remnant and what happened to them, how does the fight go against the full kett empire
 

wulf3n

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MC1980 said:
"No, you don't get it. Everything I just listed makes this game quantifiably mediocre or worse."
The problem I've found is that the vast majority of people don't truly understand the difference between objective and subjective arguments, or at the very least are not good adequately expressing the argument as such.
 

Jamcie Kerbizz

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pookie101 said:
that said its sad for us who did grow to like the story, i would of liked to of seen where the series went and have some of the questions answered like who are the remnant and what happened to them, how does the fight go against the full kett empire
Well there are millions of people enjoying Harlequin books and billions enjoing porn and following different 'stories'. Though objectively writting in both is garbage level, so saying you like them because how great quality of writting it has, well its 'simplifying' at best.
Better suited and honest way would be to say, that all 3 of these, scratch that itch many people need to have scratched in a pleasing way. Mind you, I'm not suggesting that all of 3 do the same 'trick', just none of them has good storytelling even thoug 'fans' will argue otherwise till they're all out of breath.
 

KoudelkaMorgan

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I think the only AAA games I've bought recently are Dark Souls 3 and Horizon. I've been playing Deathstate, Flinthook, Cosmic Star Heroine, Salt & Sanctuary, and Crypt of the Necrodancer mostly these days. I've never played a Mass Effect game, but I have played about 3 hours of Dragon Age 1, hated it. Bioware and Ubisoft are pretty much non entities to me these days.
 

Jamcie Kerbizz

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KoudelkaMorgan said:
I think the only AAA games I've bought recently are Dark Souls 3 and Horizon. I've been playing Deathstate, Flinthook, Cosmic Star Heroine, Salt & Sanctuary, and Crypt of the Necrodancer mostly these days. I've never played a Mass Effect game, but I have played about 3 hours of Dragon Age 1, hated it. Bioware and Ubisoft are pretty much non entities to me these days.
Well I agree with that. DA was critically acclaimed and prised as 2nd coming of Christ for 'classic' rpgs but honestly: small party, medicore boxed quests and characters with they tacky 'story' quests, hub-like pieces built world, one of most innovative characters gated behind pay wall, in game store (in RPG, story driven game!), way too zoomed in view, poor control of characters, simplified character controls and UI to enable consoles portability, dull character customizations, cringy 'cut-scenes'. Story as a whole was great, game was nice to have after so many years but all of these are cracks that show up and were overlooked.
IMO that was the start of Bioware's demise. DA2 was just a point at which sickness was obvious.
 

Saelune

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RIP Bioware's corpse. 2007-2017/8. (RIP Real Bioware 1995-2007)

Too early to jump to this conclusion? Nah, I dont think so.
 

Darth Rosenberg

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Silentpony said:
What school did you go to?! When I got the answer wrong on a test, I was marked wrong. When I failed a class, I failed. No one said "Oh, well at least you tried your best, and as we all know, in Calculus, its the thought that counts..."

In the real world when you fail a project, you're fired. You don't still go on to the next grade or get a chance to repeat the class. You failed, you're fired.
Art is now a science, is it? A true or false state? Heaven forbid art is subjective and things created can be more than an alarmingly simplistic, uncultured binary... Succeed, fail. Good, bad. Right, wrong.

babinro said:
Assuming this wasn't sarcastic...I don't understand this mentality. Why are we brought up to learn from our mistakes and improve but once a big project fails the answer is to fire everyone?

With that view it's amazing Zelda and Castlevania franchises survived beyond the second installments.

The Mass Effect universe has a lot to offer. I don't think one merely 'decent' installment should be enough to kill the franchise.
Agreed. Sadly there's a reaction against mature nuance these days.

If something simplistically true/false could be said about ME:A, it's that it needed more time to iron out bugs and glitches - which is why I'm still waiting for one more update before I buy it. Previous BioWare games have had technical issues, but ME:A - by almost every account - had it worse.

However, there's nothing wrong with Mass Effect going dark for a little while, either. Personally, I never felt the series needed to continue at all, and I'm someone who feels they went out on a high (ME2 will probably always be my favourite of the trio for its focus on character narrative and the world they'd built, but I think ME3's by a colossal margin the vastly superior game and overall accomplishment - easily one of the best triple-A's of last gen in that sense).

I always cared more about Dragon Age anyway, so I at least hope that IP doesn't go dark as well. DA:I was a mixed bag, to put it mildly (not 'good/a success', not 'bad/a failure', but many things), but I still want to see the story develop, and I still loved its ensemble.

The reaction against BioWare really isn't just about games at all, though, it's much more than that, hence the venom so often aimed their way. ME:A was a perfect storm for certain groups.
AD-Stu said:
Interesting timing on this BTW - this story comes out, and pretty much same day they put out the 1.06 patch for the game...
Wait, really? Is it out now? Huh, apparently so. Looks like I'll be finding out what I make of ME:A rather soon.
 

The Lunatic

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Well, if you take 5 years, and AAA budget and using that, you deliver Mass Effect Andromeda, you kinda deserve to get "Downsized".
 

Dragonlayer

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Dec 5, 2013
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Disappointing to hear, but I can't blame them for wanting to get their act together - or at least giving that impression - after the misstep of Andromeda. Though I have to wonder if anything short of kidnapping CD Projekt to develop a new ME was ever going to appease nutbars like me, who adored every second of the original trilogy, and nutbars like the people who shrieked and raved that ME3's original ending was so bad it killed the company and warranted a lawsuit for false advertising.
 

Vigormortis

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I said it was coming...

They didn't believe me...

I foresaw this...


Adam Jensen said:
The ultimate message is to STOP PREORDERING GAMES!
Heh, that's a good one.

It's 2017. Sensible thinking is passe.

wulf3n said:
The problem I've found is that the vast majority of people don't truly understand the difference between objective and subjective arguments
Are you saying 'alternative facts' aren't actually a real thing?!

MY WORLD VIEW!! IT IS SHATTERED!!!!!
 

Parasondox

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Sad. Mass Effect has now gone the way of Need For Speed and Dead Space. Just put it in the EA vault and hope someone comes up with better creative ideas for the IPs. I liked the game and absolutely understood the flaws. Yeah, ME:A did feel really flat in places and felt like things where left half finish. Someone at Bioware fucked up but so much more can be done with the IP if you get better writers and creative staff in because the story was kinda "meh".

Now, if EA were smart, I would suggest re-releasing the trilogy again Remastered for current consoles but lord knows how much that will cost.

Another half ass game killed the franchise. Thanks EA.
 

Hawki

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Saelune said:
RIP Bioware's corpse. 2007-2017/8. (RIP Real Bioware 1995-2007)
But I liked Mass Effect 1 :(

Then again, it's only one of two (technically three) BioWare games I've played, and the first of said three, so, I can admit to being ignorant.
 

putowtin

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Stupid, stupid stupid...

One game got a few bad reviews so we'll stop instead of giving the team a chance to improve

I for the record, like Andromeda, I like the characters, the story is okay and I could see many different way they could take the series. I love the fact that your pathfinder isn't Shepard, they don't have the experience nor command, but that's a good thing else we'd have just been replaying the originals with a different skin.

Was it rushed out and buggy? Maybe (I didn't experience any problems myself but I know a few did) but that comes down to pressure from the publisher and as we all know EA are the "devil"

Stupid, stupid stupid... Bioware you should have never sold your souls to EA... it seems to have caused you nothing but problems
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

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putowtin said:
Stupid, stupid stupid...

One game got a few bad reviews so we'll stop instead of giving the team a chance to improve
Reviews have nothing to do with it. The game didn't sell as well as they'd hoped. It's always about the money. What some gamers don't seem to understand is that people in charge don't give a fuck about games. They don't care if you enjoy the game. They don't care if the game isn't finished and that you'll never get to see what happens next. They don't care what the game is about, how long it lasts, how replayable it is etc. They're not invested in games as an entertainment medium because they are not gamers. They see them purely as products designed to make money. They don't care if it's a game or farming equipment. When their products don't do as well as they were expecting, they won't hesitate to abandon it and try something else. Your feelings towards the product are not a part of the equation.
 

Casual Shinji

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Good.

They had a change to unfuck themselves with Andromeda and what we got was a spunk drenched rag.

I'm sorry Bioware, but you have become Ubisoft; a soulless videogame factory. Maybe take some time to sort your shit out.
 

bladestorm91

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Bioware dead, GOOD. Next stop DICE. Once they are dead EA will have nothing left besides sports games.
God I wish EA would JUST DIE.
 

lionsprey

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meh, i didn't buy the game because of the racist guy on the design team. but from what i've heard i wasn't missing much anyway.
 
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Holy balls, I make one comment about liking a less-than-popular game and the whole world explodes at me. Fuck, I got less flack for saying I didn't mind the ME3 ending. You know what, I loved Andromeda so much I'm going to go make a thread about it right now in Gaming Discussion. I invite you all to come shit in my open mouth and tell me my opinions are objectively wrong there as well :D
 

SirSullymore

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TheVampwizimp said:
Well, this sucks. I was very happy to be surprised at how good Andromeda is, and sequels were clearly planned for it. If it really is over it will be a sad case of a good franchise killed by a shitty fan base, and that just upsets me.
I know! The salt over the ending of three killed the franchise!
 

fix-the-spade

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AD-Stu said:
I got the impression it was one of those projects that went on for so long and cost so much to develop that there was almost no reasonable level of sales that would make it "successful". Wasn't that the same problem Mankind Divided had too?
In Mankind Divided's case it was more to do with the decisions Squenix made in the run up to it's release.

Between the pre-orders, the multiplayer, the micro transactions and the decision to split the game into multiple 'episodic' parts yet still charge full price Squenix killed off the demand for Mankind Divided.

It had the same problem as Dead Space 3, taking a well liked single player series and cramming all of the worst elements of multiplayer and Free 2 Play games into it. The game just stopping at what feels like the half way mark doesn't help it either.

In this case I think the problem is two fold. The first is that Andromeda isn't a great game. It's full of bugs and the story isn't very engaging.

More important is that nobody really cares. Mass Effect was almost entirely about it's characters and their relationships, Andromeda has none of those characters, Shepard and friends arc finished with Mass Effect 3. If I had any interest left in Mass Effect it was to see the galaxy in the aftermath of the Reaper War, when Andromeda got announced it felt like a massive cop out.
 

Johnny Thunder

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fix-the-spade said:
More important is that nobody really cares. Mass Effect was almost entirely about it's characters and their relationships, Andromeda has none of those characters, Shepard and friends arc finished with Mass Effect 3. If I had any interest left in Mass Effect it was to see the galaxy in the aftermath of the Reaper War, when Andromeda got announced it felt like a massive cop out
Yeah, I agree with that. For that reason I wasn't interested in ME Andromeda in the first place, so at least I'm not disappointed. But what I would want from Mass Effect would be a game in which you can be the squad members doing their thing: like assassinating people as Thane or stealing stuff as Kasumi. It could be an episodic game were there are three story arcs per episode. Just thinking out loud...
 

hermes

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Silentpony said:
Good. They made a bad game, they deserve to get shit-canned as a result.
That seems a little excessive.

Sure, the game didn't fulfill the unrealistic expectations of the audience, and there was a LOT of room for improvement, but people lost their jobs over it, real people. But hey, they and their families sure deserve it for making bad animations under a tight timeline, the bastards.

On an up note, I am sure Andrew Wilson and Mac Walters are pretty secure in their work prospects... can't say the same for the dozens of people that used to be on EA Montreal.
 

Sonicron

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Well, I'm still waiting for them to patch the game into a mostly stable, glitch-free state, but I AM looking forward to playing ME:A. Frankly, I think it sucks arse that an initial luke-warm reception may have killed a wonderful IP, and I do hope we get to see more of it at some point.
 

immortalfrieza

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Considering Mass Effect Andromeda sold over a million units in the first week it was released in the U.S. yet EA actually expected it to sell 3 million this just shows how insane the sales expectations have become. There was a time not that long ago when going anywhere NEAR 1 million units would've been considered a smashing success, but game development and marketing costs have risen well beyond the level of sustainability.

It's a real shame, Mass Effect Andromeda is a very good game with great story, characters, and gameplay with an incredible amount of potential, but this probably means it's never going to reach that potential.
 

Steven Bogos

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AD-Stu said:
RiseOfTheWhiteWolf said:
AD-Stu said:
I got the impression it was one of those projects that went on for so long and cost so much to develop that there was almost no reasonable level of sales that would make it "successful". Wasn't that the same problem Mankind Divided had too?
For Mankind Divided it was more the retarded ideas that Square Enix kept forcing in, like DeusExTV or whatever that stupid marketing thing was called. (It was expensive and no one watched it.)
Like the people they <a href=https://www.masseffect.com/news/esa>sent to astronaut school as part of the marketing for ME:A? :p Can't have been cheap and don't imagine many people watched or cared about that either.
I sure fucking hope the EU didn't splash cash on that to promote their space agency and video games because muh progressive culture.

Doubt it because Bioware isn't based in Europe but with the EU you never know where the fuck the money is going to end up.

Anyhow, it makes me kind of salty to see the EU cooperate with EA like that while great developers like Piranha Bytes get little to no help, at least AFAIK. Off topic, sorry.
 

putowtin

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Adam Jensen said:
putowtin said:
Stupid, stupid stupid...

One game got a few bad reviews so we'll stop instead of giving the team a chance to improve
Reviews have nothing to do with it. The game didn't sell as well as they'd hoped. It's always about the money. What some gamers don't seem to understand is that people in charge don't give a fuck about games. They don't care if you enjoy the game. They don't care if the game isn't finished and that you'll never get to see what happens next. They don't care what the game is about, how long it lasts, how replayable it is etc. They're not invested in games as an entertainment medium because they are not gamers. They see them purely as products designed to make money. They don't care if it's a game or farming equipment. When their products don't do as well as they were expecting, they won't hesitate to abandon it and try something else. Your feelings towards the product are not a part of the equation.
Adam, love, did you breath anywhere in that?!
I get it really do, the bottom line is all most people care about anymore (depressing as that is)
But it's not as though it only sold two copies, I think it was close to 3 million in its first two weeks
 

pookie101

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first mass effect now hitman.. may 2017 is starting to be come known as the culling
 

jklinders

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Wasn't entirely their fault. A lot of animations were outsourced to a Romanian firm to save money. That's an awful lot of probably overworked people who had zero fucks to give about the franchise and were just collecting a paycheck. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that decision was made out of house by EA rather than Bioware Montreal. Also, the Montreal branch were the second stringers of Bioware to begin with. The Austin branch has most of the good ones these days. People who are rumored to be prototyping a reboot of of KotOR.

That the game shipped in the state it did suggests every bit as much about EA as it did the devs. Only thing is, EA is not getting shit canned for it but their underlings are being thrown under the bus for failing.

Sad part is, I'm still going to get it once I finally get this potato powered PC upgraded.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Darth Rosenberg said:
Its not art, its a business. They're selling a product. A product whose success depends solely on its content and quality. And it had neither, so as a product it was a failure. Thus the business people, with the job of creating s successful product, failed in their job.

Saying "When video games art?!" doesn't change the fact they're in this for the money.
 

Elijin

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The worst thing I would say about ME:A is that it was average or uninspiring, and prone to being buggy (I think I personally had 1 noticeable bug in my playthrough). It has a fairly solid core that is fun if that style of gameplay appeals to you. But these days being a AAA and being average or uninspiring? Well, you may as well have committed a war crime. Especially if you're a developer like Bioware, who already upset the internet.
 

Fappy

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Adam Jensen said:
The ultimate message is to STOP PREORDERING GAMES!
Thankfully most of my friends have stopped. Still, I think we're in the minority.

More on topic: Bioware's been kinda RIP for me since ME3. It's just not the same company anymore. Makes me sad :(
 

JenSeven

Crazy person! Avoid!
Oct 19, 2010
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Welp.

The Montreal Branch frankly didn't deserve to be handed the franchise, as all they previously did was the Multiplayer, which didn't involve making the character models or write the story. And now they are downgraded to 'online support' which means that they will only be working on the Multiplayer, so no more fixes to the main game nor DLC.
This is EA being massively stupid again, as the Multiplayer is mainly there to keep people occupied and invested in the game till new DLC or fixes to the game are released. So they just killed the game and its multiplayer because they brought the whole thing down.
It's a typical EA move, stupid to the core and completely missing the point and how the market reacts.

They rushed a severely unpolished, but highly anticipated game, made by a studio that didn't know what they were doing and now canned the whole thing before more experienced people could come in and fix the horrible mess.

Congrats EA. Going for another Shittest Company Award?
 

Bobular

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Played Andromeda, really enjoyed it, disappointed I wont be getting a sequel soon by the sounds of it.

I only had one crash the entire time I played it and that was due to a hardware fault on my PC rather than the game. I didn't think the animation was terrible, just not the best. The multiplayer was the same as ME3 which I spent ages playing so I enjoyed the multiplayer for Andromeda just the same. I like most of the characters in Andromeda. The story was quite good and I enjoyed the feeling of exploring a new galaxy, especially at the start when I had no idea what things were.

I'd say Andromeda was a good game, not the best game but good, worth the money I payed for it. I honestly don't see why people are complaining about it so much, I can only guess its due to people still being upset over the ME3 ending and so went into Andromeda expecting it to be shit and expectations will change how you see a game.
 

Darth Rosenberg

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Silentpony said:
Its not art, its a business. They're selling a product. A product whose success depends solely on its content and quality. And it had neither, so as a product it was a failure. Thus the business people, with the job of creating s successful product, failed in their job.
...except given the subjective nature of art (regardless of what you repeat and would like to believe, it demonstrably isn't just a "business"), you are unable to objectively prove success or failure.

And to judge art/entertainment purely on how much it sells would be tantamount to a kind of anti-art culture, which would be in dire need of maturing/evolving. Thankfully, I'd say most people do not hold to that horribly reductive position.

Elijin said:
But these days being a AAA and being average or uninspiring? Well, you may as well have committed a war crime. Especially if you're a developer like Bioware, who already upset the internet.
That's not just for triple-A games, though. And BioWare upset particular and particularly vocal sections of teh internetz/society - I'd wager most people who bought and played it treated it as you described; just another okay game to play and then likely move on from (I'll see for myself tonight).
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Darth Rosenberg said:
Maybe you can't, but I can. Bioware wanted their product to do well, financially and critically. Bioware's product did not do well financially or critically, at least not to the benchmark Bioware set.
Bioware's product failed in its intent.
Whether or not you think its art is irrelevant, because you didn't buy an extra 2million copies. And to an investor, which do you think it more important? An extra 2 million units sold, or someone saying "But Art cannot be judged, for what is art? Well, Art is Art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water. And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now you tell me what you know, Mr. Boss Man!"

Chance are you'd be fired.
 

hermes

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Silentpony said:
babinro said:
Silentpony said:
Good. They made a bad game, they deserve to get shit-canned as a result.
Assuming this wasn't sarcastic...I don't understand this mentality. Why are we brought up to learn from our mistakes and improve but once a big project fails the answer is to fire everyone?

With that view it's amazing Zelda and Castlevania franchises survived beyond the second installments.

The Mass Effect universe has a lot to offer. I don't think one merely 'decent' installment should be enough to kill the franchise.
What school did you go to?! When I got the answer wrong on a test, I was marked wrong. When I failed a class, I failed. No one said "Oh, well at least you tried your best, and as we all know, in Calculus, its the thought that counts..."

In the real world when you fail a project, you're fired. You don't still go on to the next grade or get a chance to repeat the class. You failed, you're fired.
The point where that analogy falls apart is that game making are not individual tests, and there is a lot of "fault" that can be divided among many people (there is also the part about judging failure or success in a piece of art is a lot harder than in 2+2=6, but that is another issue).

A better analogy would be, imagine a Calculus test where you are given a single question and 10 minutes to answer. Now imagine every member of your class is given a different question, and failure is defined by the amount of correct answers the entire class got. So, if most people failed the test, the entire class fails the test, regardless of your individual performance. Now imagine the one that decides which person gets each question is one of your classmates (not you), he does it without the input or opinion of anyone else, and he is the only one that is likely to pass, regardless of the result. And, just for kicks, imagine that if you fail this test, you can't repeat it, you have to repeat the course and try again, in a different school.

That is a closer analogy. See the "fairness" in that?

In all fairness, I am not against the people that made the decisions that lead to the game feeling unfinished despite being clustered getting some kind of punishment, but the people that got laid-off are likely to be the ones that didn't even get to decide on Ryder's hair color. Regardless of the reception, Wilson is still going to get a 1 million dollars salary (I am not exaggerating here), and Walters is still going to move on to the next Bioware project.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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hermes said:
OH! I get it! It's like a sports team, where no matter how much one player screams they scored the most goals of the entire team, the fact the team still lost means the team lost.
And also like in the say, business world, where if a project fails, more than just the project manager's head is on the slab. The entire teams' jobs are at risk, because they all share in the blame of the failed group project, and no amount of finger pointing fixes that.

There are lots of things in the world where you're judged on the performance of others in your team.
 

hermes

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Silentpony said:
hermes said:
OH! I get it! It's like a sports team, where no matter how much one player screams they scored the most goals of the entire team, the fact the team still lost means the team lost.
And also like in the say, business world, where if a project fails, more than just the project manager's head is on the slab. The entire teams' jobs are at risk, because they all share in the blame of the failed group project, and no amount of finger pointing fixes that.

There are lots of things in the world where you're judged on the performance of others in your team.
True, but you shouldn't worry about the future of the project manager and other decision makers' heads... Regardless of the reception, Wilson is still going to get a 1 million dollars salary, and Walters is still going to move on to the next Bioware project. But I am sure they are not responsible for it and shouldn't be singled out. Not like the person that made Ryder's textures.
 

kitsunefather

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Nov 29, 2010
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Sniper Team 4 said:
So...although unanswered questions from ME:A are going to remain unanswered? Like...basically the entire game? Smooth, BioWare. I know Andromeda wasn't the greatest game, but I'd still like to know what happens. I was kind of hoping you guys would learn from the mistakes and strive to make it better--like you've been saying you were going to do--but apparently tucking your tails and running is the better choice.
Thanks. Thanks a lot.
This is why we, as the gaming audience, should demand more games be self-contained stories, that leave dangling threads to be picked up in future installments, rather than planned outright as multi-part "epics". Tell a good story in a world we want to revisit, or with characters we want to see more of, rather than simply sell us a half-finished story and tell us to "wait for the sequel".
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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hermes said:
Silentpony said:
hermes said:
OH! I get it! It's like a sports team, where no matter how much one player screams they scored the most goals of the entire team, the fact the team still lost means the team lost.
And also like in the say, business world, where if a project fails, more than just the project manager's head is on the slab. The entire teams' jobs are at risk, because they all share in the blame of the failed group project, and no amount of finger pointing fixes that.

There are lots of things in the world where you're judged on the performance of others in your team.
Truth, but you shouldn't worry about the future of the project manager and other decision makers' heads... Regardless of the reception, Wilson is still going to get a 1 million dollars salary, and Walters is still going to move on to the next Bioware project. But I am sure they are not responsible for it and shouldn't be singled out. Not like the person that made Ryder's textures.
I do actually feel bad for one person on the team. Won't name her, but she's my bro's GF and her first job out of her master's program was on the QA team for Andromeda.
I can't decide if come thanksgiving if I should ask her if the turkey's textures are still loading...
 

AzrealMaximillion

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I love how silly this thread is.

For many years a lot of the main figures of Bioware have been leaving and Bioware has been making less quality products as of late. They ship Mass Effect to their B-Team studio, who mishandles Andromeda to epic degrees, and people are screeching on with the "It's all EA's fault" meme.

Can we for once place some damn responsibility on the people who actually the game rather than go for the low hanging fruit?
 
Nov 28, 2007
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AzrealMaximillion said:
I love how silly this thread is.

For many years a lot of the main figures of Bioware have been leaving and Bioware has been making less quality products as of late. They ship Mass Effect to their B-Team studio, who mishandles Andromeda to epic degrees, and people are screeching on with the "It's all EA's fault" meme.

Can we for once place some damn responsibility on the people who actually the game rather than go for the low hanging fruit?
But according to these same people, EA drove out the main figures of Bioware. As for shipping Mass Effect: Andromeda to their B-team studio, that actually was (apparently) EA's decision, as was the decision to outsource the facial animations without any input from the development team.

Bioware isn't faultless, mind you, but EA is far from innocent.
 

Saelune

Trump put kids in cages!
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Hawki said:
Saelune said:
RIP Bioware's corpse. 2007-2017/8. (RIP Real Bioware 1995-2007)
But I liked Mass Effect 1 :(

Then again, it's only one of two (technically three) BioWare games I've played, and the first of said three, so, I can admit to being ignorant.
I also liked Mass Effect 1, which was the final game good Bioware made. Unfortunately, Mass Effect 2 on was not made for ME1 fans.
 

Steven Bogos

The Taco Man
Jan 17, 2013
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Quick ,someone put the ME subreddit on suicide watch!Honestly, just fucking kill this shit already - it would be far more dignifying to watch it die, than getting "Indinna Jones"'ed with garbage JSW pandering and "streamlining".ME had it's run.It's time to hung your N7 branded socks and take ol' yeller behind the woodshed.

immortalfrieza said:
.....Mass Effect Andromeda is a very good game with great story, characters, and gameplay with an incredible amount of potential......
 

MonsterCrit

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Steven Bogos said:
Sources are claiming that BioWare's Montreal studio has been downsized, and work on new Mass Effect titles has been put on ice.

Mass Effect: Andromeda was not as well received by critics and the public as its predecessors, and that reaction is reportedly having some lasting effects at BioWare. Sources close to Kotaku [https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/05/sources-bioware-montreal-downsized-mass-effect-put-on-ice-for-now/] have claimed that not only has the developer's Montreal studio been downsized, but the entire Mass Effect franchise has been put on ice for now.
What did they expect would happen? Storywise it addeed not so much anything to the series. Thusly it made the graphics issues that much more focus worthy. Honestly I'm sort of baffled at those bugs to begin with.

I could expect that happening with a small team of EAcc indie devs, but this is a group of seasoned vets with millions of dollars and a makor publisher. And they miss an issue that even the most casual of playthroughs would notice. One playtester would have been enough to point that shit out and they're surprised that not doing even that got them a poor reception?

BioWare Montreal is the studio responsible for Andromeda, and last month a number employees were transferred to the studio EA Motive, also based in Montreal, to work on Star Wars Battlefront 2. Those remaining at BioWare Montreal will help support BioWare's other games including the new intellectual property that was recently delayed [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/170322-New-BioWare-IP-Delayed].
Wonder how long it will take for EA to get cold feet on that.
 

Darth Rosenberg

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Silentpony said:
Maybe you can't, but I can. Bioware wanted their product to do well, financially and critically. Bioware's product did not do well financially or critically, at least not to the benchmark Bioware set.
Bioware's product failed in its intent.
Can you only capable of see the world in binary states? True/false, success/fail? Very few things in life are that simplistic.

A perception of failure on the publishers side is their own matter to decide - neither your opinion or mine is relevant to that judgement. If EA come out and declare ME:A a financial failure, then it is one for them[footnote]Though we'd need to know the projections they forecast and targets they wished to hit - which we could then compare to other publishers projections and benchmarks and assess whether EA were at all reasonable or not. Publishers - primarily being little more than money-men and marketers - are often a tad moronic and greedy, after all...[/footnote]. If some of the developers come out and declare their pride in the work, then it is a success to them. Ditto for anyone who plays the game (the most reasonable people will likely always see a mixture of qualities in all art/entertainment, and not ignorantly dish out reductive labels; bad films/games/books have good elements, good films/games/books have bad elements, and there's a ton of variously blandly acceptable content in between).

Surely the only way objective commercial failure can ever be declared is if a project does so poorly as to not make profits or endanger the solvency of the company backing it, or/and if people go unpaid.

ME:A did just fine commercially, and if we're going from general reception by gaming press, then 73 on Metacritic on PC (77 on Xbox, 70 on PS4) is not even close to a critical failure.

fi6eka said:
...than getting "Indinna Jones"'ed with garbage JSW pandering and "streamlining".
"JSW"? Is that another made up cultural boogieman, or just a typo?
 

Ishigami

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Yep BioWare hate still strong on The Escapist forum. All quiet on the western front.

If true regrettable news. I'm currently finishing my second play thru sitting at slightly above 120 hours and level 93.
So I would be rather sad that I do not get to investigate the identity of the benefactor, missing Quarian ark or what happened to the Remnants and what the Kett Empire truly is like.
Overall I think the game did pretty good some issues like animations aside.
It had the ungrateful task to create or continue a Mass Effect universe after the ME3 ending. And I think overall it succeeded. Too bad if EA decides to throw it all away.

Someone here said ME died with ME3 as it was all about this one crew.
I don't think so.
Let's not forget a lot of the Normandy crew got replaced in ME2. Some choices about your crew did not carry over from ME2 to ME3 either e.g. Morinth or were no more than a cameo e.g. Kasumi.
What I say is the original cast is overrated because of some more outstanding entries like Mordin or Garrus.
On its own right ME:A has some pretty decent characters such as Drack, Vetra or Jaal.
For me it's like someone claiming StarWars is all about the Skywalkers or Star Trek all about Spock and Kirk.
I would like to believe that a lore rich universe can be used for all kinds of stories. That's why I looked forward to SW 1313 and I thought it was a downgrade when they said it was Boba Fett as it seemed like an unnecessary tie not to mention the game character looked nothing like Morrison.

All these stories how dreadful ME:A is only make me giggle. All I hear is some people with a lack of perspective talking. Apparently they have never played a truly bad game in their life. But the binary is strong on the internet: Something can only be the greatest thing ever or the biggest pile of shit, there is little in between.
Well for me something in between exists.
ME:A had and still has its problems but overall it is okay. I would like it to continue and improve.
 

AzrealMaximillion

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thebobmaster said:
AzrealMaximillion said:
I love how silly this thread is.

For many years a lot of the main figures of Bioware have been leaving and Bioware has been making less quality products as of late. They ship Mass Effect to their B-Team studio, who mishandles Andromeda to epic degrees, and people are screeching on with the "It's all EA's fault" meme.

Can we for once place some damn responsibility on the people who actually the game rather than go for the low hanging fruit?
But according to these same people, EA drove out the main figures of Bioware. As for shipping Mass Effect: Andromeda to their B-team studio, that actually was (apparently) EA's decision, as was the decision to outsource the facial animations without any input from the development team.

Bioware isn't faultless, mind you, but EA is far from innocent.
I hear you, but as you can see in the thread, a lot of people are letting Bioware slide. I don't like doing that. I also find it funny when people go at EA for doing certain bullshit, but not other companies for doing the same thing.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Darth Rosenberg said:
I see business as business. Bioware is in the business of making money. Business is that simple. Did you make enough money to turn a profit? Did you hit your sales goal? Was your product well received by the consumer? Can we justify a sequel game, given our first game's reception? Did the flaws in our product affect sales? Why were the flaws not fixed? Who was in charge of those areas that were flawed? Why did they give us a flawed product? Why are they still working for us?

These aren't philosophical topics to be pondered over brandy. This is Business 101.
The fact someone takes pride in their work doesn't matter if they go out of business because no one else took pride in their work.
 

Fensfield

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Oh come on; Andromeda had a lot to rag on but the story was good, and now they're not going to continue it? Bleh, it sounded like it was lining up for some spaceborne horror, too.
 

KoDOmega

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... holy crap, my account's still usable after years of neglect???? Awesome!

On the one hand, I absolutely think people have been too harsh on the game and it doesn't deserve half the hate it gets.

On the other, I couldn't save on my PS4 after getting 1.0.6, so...
 

Steven Bogos

The Taco Man
Jan 17, 2013
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Darth Rosenberg said:
"JSW"? Is that another made up cultural boogieman, or just a typo?
Don't play smartass with me boy!It's obvious it means "Jewish Summer Wankers".

Old keyboard crapped out on me and i still haven't gotten used to the replacement one.
 

Tony2077

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well this sucks i like the game and there is still a lot we weren't told about so it would have been neat to see where those story paths led. oh just because of who i am haters be damned
 

Darth Rosenberg

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Silentpony said:
I see business as business.
Which probably explains why you're only seeing part of the picture.

Bioware is in the business of making money. Business is that simple. [1]Did you make enough money to turn a profit? [2]Did you hit your sales goal? [3]Was your product well received by the consumer? [4]Can we justify a sequel game, given our first game's reception? [5]Did the flaws in our product affect sales? [6]Why were the flaws not fixed? [7]Who was in charge of those areas that were flawed? [8]Why did they give us a flawed product? [9]Why are they still working for us?
You're really not doing your position any good.

Let's go through 'em.

1: clearly EA did.

2: we'd need to speak to EA for that, as I stated before - and their position wouldn't necessarily be of any worth for the reasons I previously stated (publishers: not a reliably bright lot).

3: how do we judge that in any meaningful way? 'Fan' feedback? Aggregate sites? Random YT channels? Ranting forumites either with axes to grind or loyalties to defend? Polls through official channels? Snippets of all the above?

4: that's up to EA, and I find it very hard to believe another ME won't go into production soon enough (relatively speaking).

5: define "flaws", for starters, given those are mostly subjective in a creative artform. Many things affected sales. Delicate snowflakes ironically bridling at progressiveness, for one. Bugs for another - ME:A only finished installing on my drive a few minutes ago because I wasn't going to touch such a clearly - demonstrably - technically defective product (as less than impressive as ME:A's face tech is, I do not count that among the technical errors).

6: most guesses point to 'EA done EA again', given they should've been keenly aware of the state of the product they were backing. I'm not sure anyone knows the specifics yet, but it's reasonable to suspect BioWare and EA were effectively negligent in a variety of ways.

7's academic and down to BioWare's discretion and possible internal reviews.

8: a good question for the technical issues, and one I'd like to know the answer to. If they most care about early doors sales, then they lost my contribution because of its unfit state for release (though I am still adding to their overall sales success).

9: ditto as for 7.

The post of yours I challenged tried to paint ME:A's and a possible follow-up's fate as simple. The above questions and their possible answers do nothing but complicate matters.

The fact someone takes pride in their work doesn't matter if they go out of business because no one else took pride in their work.
...I'm sorry, did EA or BioWare go bust whilst I wasn't looking? Was ME:A a disaster commercially? That's a clear 'no' to both.

Referencing creative pride [in a creative medium] was relevant to illustrate that there are many perspectives on, and the means to measure, the quality of work that's been done by the various parties involved, and that beyond the metrics of units shifted, nothing is simple, and barely anything can ever be boiled down to 'derp, fail/succeed'.

If you've tried to claim ME:A was a black and white true/false failure, then so far you've not actually done a single thing to try to back it up, and given you can't reasonably cite commercial - or critical - failure, I'm not sure how you'd go about it.

Tony2077 said:
well this sucks i like the game and there is still a lot we weren't told about so it would have been neat to see where those story paths led. oh just because of who i am haters be damned
It's worth keeping in mind just how small a group of haterz there probably is, relative to the amount of people just playing the game normally. ME:A's technical faults were just an excuse for certain groups to give BioWare another kicking.

...though, granted, it was like a defender in football going in studs up in the box, therefore giving the ref a decision to make - clearly BioWare/EA made mistakes.
 

Ukomba

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RJ 17 said:
Ukomba said:
All I know is I didn't buy it. Primarily it was because I was hoping for them to run with the indoctrination theory
I don't see how anyone could still have been holding out for something validating the IT to be implemented considering how the EC canonically disproves everything the IT suggests about the ending. After the EC, the only thing about the IT that has merit is the evidence that Shepard was in the process of being Indoctrinated throughout the trilogy...but much like that star that was being affected by dark energy in ME2: Shepard's possible Indoctrination was a story thread that was never developed.

DemomanHusband said:
To be fair, saying you were surprised by how good a game like ME:A was is like saying you were surprised by how dry the ocean is, it displays a blatant lack of objective understanding of your own experiences. ME:A is not a good game, not even a passable game with solid mechanics bogged down by bugs, it's through-and-through bad. Trying to pass off all the blame for the franchise's death onto 'the community' is just putting blinders on.
Granted: I agree that the studio had more to do with the game's reception than a toxic community, but that doesn't mean that you get to dictate what someone else considers to be a good game. If Vampwizimp thought the game was surprisingly good then - per Vampwizimp's tastes - it was good. You're welcome to disagree with that if you want, but there is nothing objective about personal tastes and preferences.

Your comparison regarding calling the ocean dry doesn't work because water being wet is an objectively observable fact that isn't based on personal tastes/preferences. Whether or not an individual finds a game to be good and enjoyable - regardless of whatever objectively observable flaws it may have - is still an entirely subjective matter since it is based on personal tastes/preferences.
Not sure how any of that changes the fact that I was disappointed they didn't decide to roll with the theory, and that decision effected my choice on buying the next game. It's more like whinging that someone likes the theory.

But no I don't think it completely disproves it. At best it explains how your crew members ended up on the Normandy, there is still a lot that doesn't make sense, including how Shepard apparently wakes up at the end of the Destroy ending buried in concrete on earth when he was exploded in space. It doesn't explain the appearing, disheartening, visible only to Shepard child. Or any of the dream like nonsense that happens post Reaper blast.

IMO the only smart way to move forward for them at this point is to dust off those story lines and and give the original Mass Effect the ending it deserves. Embrace the indoctrination theory as a way to reboot ME3 (just the end or most of it) and wipe out ME4 entirely, bring in that dark energy story line make the game more than just a series of shooting set pieces.
 

The Raw Shark

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes.
Nov 19, 2014
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So does this mean they're not gonna touch Dragon Age or Mass Effect ever again? Because as far as those are concerned, Origins ended after Awakening and the Citadel DLC for ME3 was the actual ending.

I mean as much as I liked BioWare, their recent tendency to turn their games in to shittier MMOs than their actual MMO have left my jimmies significantly rustled. Also the potential to either go back to voiceless protags with better dialogue options for the main character, or at least voice actors with more emotional range than a stump of wood with an even bigger stump up it's ass.

Seriously why the hell are people only complaining about it for Fallout 4 when we have never so desperately needed the return of Darth "Fat people always lie" Revan
 

RJ 17

The Sound of Silence
Nov 27, 2011
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Ukomba said:
Not sure how any of that changes the fact that I was disappointed they didn't decide to roll with the theory, and that decision effected my choice on buying the next game. It's more like whinging that someone likes the theory.
Not really, since I wasn't questioning your disappointment with the fact that the IT was implemented. Rather I was questioning the rationale behind believing it ever could be implemented.

But no I don't think it completely disproves it.
It's been half a decade, so I really don't want to get into this argument again. So here's the short version: the IT implies that ME3 doesn't actually end. Best case scenario: Shepard breaks free and wakes up on the battlefield on Earth. Cut to credits. The EC shows that the game actually does end when you pick your favorite color (or tell Star Child to piss off and let the Reapers win) and goes on to show an epilogue revealing the ramifications of your actions.

At best it explains how your crew members ended up on the Normandy, there is still a lot that doesn't make sense, including how Shepard apparently wakes up at the end of the Destroy ending buried in concrete on earth when he was exploded in space.
It's called "crappy writing filled with plotholes and inconsistencies." There's your explanation. :^)

It doesn't explain the appearing, disheartening, visible only to Shepard child. Or any of the dream like nonsense that happens post Reaper blast.
As I said: that can be attributed to the notion that they were wanting to do something with Shepard being indoctrinated but decided to nix that story thread, just like the dark energy star reaction. This is, in turn, again attributed to shoddy writing filled with plotholes and inconsistencies.

IMO the only smart way to move forward for them at this point is to dust off those story lines and and give the original Mass Effect the ending it deserves. Embrace the indoctrination theory as a way to reboot ME3 (just the end or most of it) and wipe out ME4 entirely, bring in that dark energy story line make the game more than just a series of shooting set pieces.
I'm all for people saying "I wish this game had been made like this." Hell, I wish Dark Siders III was going to be a 4-player co-op. The issue is that the game you want is based off of a theoretical plot thread that was canonically proven to be not true/applicable. :^)

Now, if you're saying you would have wanted a remake of ME3 that did fully explore Shepard's Indoctrination rather than making ME:A, then that's fine and I can certainly understand that sentiment considering how disappointing the ending to ME3 was. I'd still argue that there's other issues with the IT that makes it unsuitable for that reason, but at that point we'd be talking about a hypothetical game that could hypothetically be made in any number of ways, so it'd be pointless to argue about it. :p
 

Ukomba

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RJ 17 said:
Ukomba said:
Not sure how any of that changes the fact that I was disappointed they didn't decide to roll with the theory, and that decision effected my choice on buying the next game. It's more like whinging that someone likes the theory.
Not really, since I wasn't questioning your disappointment with the fact that the IT was implemented. Rather I was questioning the rationale behind believing it ever could be implemented.
Of course it COULD be implemented. The only limitation there is your imagination. WOULD it be implemented is another question entirely and it's clear the higher ups at EA are unimaginative and want to play things safe so it's unlikely they'd choose the more creative direction over cribbing off HALO.

RJ 17 said:
But no I don't think it completely disproves it.
It's been half a decade, so I really don't want to get into this argument again. So here's the short version: the IT implies that ME3 doesn't actually end. Best case scenario: Shepard breaks free and wakes up on the battlefield on Earth. Cut to credits. The EC shows that the game actually does end when you pick your favorite color (or tell Star Child to piss off and let the Reapers win) and goes on to show an epilogue revealing the ramifications of your actions.

At best it explains how your crew members ended up on the Normandy, there is still a lot that doesn't make sense, including how Shepard apparently wakes up at the end of the Destroy ending buried in concrete on earth when he was exploded in space.
It's called "crappy writing filled with plotholes and inconsistencies." There's your explanation. :^)

It doesn't explain the appearing, disheartening, visible only to Shepard child. Or any of the dream like nonsense that happens post Reaper blast.
As I said: that can be attributed to the notion that they were wanting to do something with Shepard being indoctrinated but decided to nix that story thread, just like the dark energy star reaction. This is, in turn, again attributed to shoddy writing filled with plotholes and inconsistencies.

IMO the only smart way to move forward for them at this point is to dust off those story lines and and give the original Mass Effect the ending it deserves. Embrace the indoctrination theory as a way to reboot ME3 (just the end or most of it) and wipe out ME4 entirely, bring in that dark energy story line make the game more than just a series of shooting set pieces.
I'm all for people saying "I wish this game had been made like this." Hell, I wish Dark Siders III was going to be a 4-player co-op. The issue is that the game you want is based off of a theoretical plot thread that was canonically proven to be not true/applicable. :^)

Now, if you're saying you would have wanted a remake of ME3 that did fully explore Shepard's Indoctrination rather than making ME:A, then that's fine and I can certainly understand that sentiment considering how disappointing the ending to ME3 was. I'd still argue that there's other issues with the IT that makes it unsuitable for that reason, but at that point we'd be talking about a hypothetical game that could hypothetically be made in any number of ways, so it'd be pointless to argue about it. :p
TL;DR I have no interest in going into this with you. At this point you either a fan of the theory or you're not.
 

breadsammich

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The article specifically states that this does not mean there's no more Mass Effect. It only says that they're not IMMEDIATELY jumping into a sequel. Just a few snippets from the Kotaku article that completely contradict the sensationalist headline:

"BioWare Montreal will also continue to patch and support Andromeda's multiplayer."

"Even as BioWare continues to focus on the Mass Effect Andromeda community and live service...." (EA Quote)

"Earlier this week on an earnings call, Electronic Arts CEO Andrew Wilson told investors that the publisher is "very happy with how BioWare is doing, how BioWare is treating Mass Effect. And our expectations for Mass Effect are still strong for the future and the franchise overall."

Plus, if you read the rest of the article, it mentions that the Bioware and Motive teams are sharing space. Meaning they're not so much getting shipped off to other places as just moving down the hall. Obviously we can't know the future, but it seems outlandish that a game that got consistently average ratings and had the third biggest launch of the year would be immediately shelved for good. Not when there's sweet, sweet DLC money to be made. Plus it would be foolish to announce that you did not intend to continue a franchise just over a month after the newest entry launched. That would be a big dampener on sales.

Overall I think this is more a case of poor communication on EA's part, along with sensationalist headlines getting the better of our increasingly short attention spans.
 

talker

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I'm glad. Ubisoft are killing Assassin's Creed, and Mass Effect has too good a universe and too happy a memories for me to be trampled on year after year. I hope they'll revisit it in some time, perhaps with a remaster of ME1. It hasn't aged very well in my opinion.
 

Steven Bogos

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breadsammich said:
The article specifically states that this does not mean there's no more Mass Effect. It only says that they're not IMMEDIATELY jumping into a sequel. Just a few snippets from the Kotaku article that completely contradict the sensationalist headline:

"BioWare Montreal will also continue to patch and support Andromeda's multiplayer."

"Even as BioWare continues to focus on the Mass Effect Andromeda community and live service...." (EA Quote)

"Earlier this week on an earnings call, Electronic Arts CEO Andrew Wilson told investors that the publisher is "very happy with how BioWare is doing, how BioWare is treating Mass Effect. And our expectations for Mass Effect are still strong for the future and the franchise overall."

Plus, if you read the rest of the article, it mentions that the Bioware and Motive teams are sharing space. Meaning they're not so much getting shipped off to other places as just moving down the hall. Obviously we can't know the future, but it seems outlandish that a game that got consistently average ratings and had the third biggest launch of the year would be immediately shelved for good. Not when there's sweet, sweet DLC money to be made. Plus it would be foolish to announce that you did not intend to continue a franchise just over a month after the newest entry launched. That would be a big dampener on sales.

Overall I think this is more a case of poor communication on EA's part, along with sensationalist headlines getting the better of our increasingly short attention spans.
Sure, and Deus Ex isn't dead again after Mankind Divided flopped. MEA was supposed to sell-through 3 million copies in its launch month. (Which is only somewhat more than ME3 did in its launch month.) It didn't get anywhere near that.

A company is never going to proclaim how much they fucked up. They're always going to spin it and sugar coat it in their statements. Their actions regarding the reorganisation of the company however, tell a much more honest story, and that makes this look really bad.

You said it yourself it would be foolish to say it out loud. That doesn't mean it isn't happening. DLC is still assured, atleast for MP, if their lootbox system makes money. SP, they'll still probably do, on a budget. But a sequel is off the table for a gooooood long while. Atleast another 5 year hibernation.
 

Callate

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Our teams at BioWare and across EA put in tremendous effort bringing Mass Effect Andromeda to players around the world.
You ungrateful shits.

Even as BioWare continues to focus on the Mass Effect Andromeda community and live service, we are constantly looking at how we're prepared for the next experiences we will create.
Wonder if they'll notice we didn't say "the next Mass Effect experiences we'll create"? Anyway, got to keep the servers on just long enough to milk those tail-end purchases.

The teams in EA Worldwide Studios are packed with talent, and more than ever, we are driving collaboration between studios on key projects.
Surely, someone out there will take these jackholes off our hands? Any of you want to enter the indie sector? Remember the golden rule: "transitioning" and "moving on" and "seeking new opportunities" looks good, "downsizing" and "laying off" and "shit-canning" looks bad.

With our BioWare and Motive teams sharing studio space in Montreal, we have BioWare team members joining Motive projects that are underway.
You know, Motive? Famous for...

Um...

Um...

...Working as the "B"-team for the studios that get all the credit?


We're also ramping up teams on other BioWare projects in development. We're also ramping up teams on other BioWare projects in development.
Dammit, we are not shutting down another studio while our investors can still remember how much we paid for it.
 

breadsammich

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MC1980 said:
Sure, and Deus Ex isn't dead again after Mankind Divided flopped. MEA was supposed to sell-through 3 million copies in its launch month. (Which is only somewhat more than ME3 did in its launch month.) It didn't get anywhere near that.

A company is never going to proclaim how much they fucked up. They're always going to spin it and sugar coat it in their statements. Their actions regarding the reorganisation of the company however, tell a much more honest story, and that makes this look really bad.

You said it yourself it would be foolish to say it out loud. That doesn't mean it isn't happening. DLC is still assured, atleast for MP, if their lootbox system makes money. SP, they'll still probably do, on a budget. But a sequel is off the table for a gooooood long while. Atleast another 5 year hibernation.
In regards to the reorganization, I've heard a lot of people saying that this is somewhat normal for companies. I'll admit I don't have any firsthand knowledge of the industry, but the argument goes that you don't need more than a skeleton crew to work on patches/dlc and that in the interim, the larger portion of employees get shuffled elsewhere--in the case of Montreal they're being moved essentially down the hall. All this really is speculation, though. I just wish Bioware or EA would make some kind of statement aside from the boilerplate language. Otherwise the internet is going to control the narrative, and you do not want to trust the internet with anything resembling a narrative.
 

Steven Bogos

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breadsammich said:
In regards to the reorganization, I've heard a lot of people saying that this is somewhat normal for companies. I'll admit I don't have any firsthand knowledge of the industry, but the argument goes that you don't need more than a skeleton crew to work on patches/dlc and that in the interim, the larger portion of employees get shuffled elsewhere--in the case of Montreal they're being moved essentially down the hall. All this really is speculation, though. I just wish Bioware or EA would make some kind of statement aside from the boilerplate language. Otherwise the internet is going to control the narrative, and you do not want to trust the internet with anything resembling a narrative.
A moving of talent is normal, you're not in full production anymore, after all. However, the way it has been described is that they've been completely relegated to support on other projects with only MP being actively worked on MEA. ie they've been repurposed. Not helming any projects going forward.
 

breadsammich

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MC1980 said:
A moving of talent is normal, you're not in full production anymore, after all. However, the way it has been described is that they've been completely relegated to support on other projects with only MP being actively worked on MEA. ie they've been repurposed. Not helming any projects going forward.
Really we'll just have to wait and see. All we have right now is one Kotaku article claiming unidentified sources and whatever we can parse from the canned EA response.
 

AD-Stu

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fix-the-spade said:
More important is that nobody really cares. Mass Effect was almost entirely about it's characters and their relationships, Andromeda has none of those characters, Shepard and friends arc finished with Mass Effect 3. If I had any interest left in Mass Effect it was to see the galaxy in the aftermath of the Reaper War, when Andromeda got announced it felt like a massive cop out.
I dunno - mileage will certainly vary on that point. My personal view is that the absolute best "character" from the original trilogy, better than Shepard, Garrus, Wrex, Tali, Mordin or anyone else, was the universe itself.

It made absolute sense for ME3 to be the final Shepard game (before its release I 100% expected them to kill Shepard off at the end - I just didn't expect them to do it that badly...) Getting to spend more time in that universe with different characters telling different stories had exciting potential though. And I absoluely would have liked to see the aftermath of the Reaper War in the Milky Way too, but we got the ME3 ending we got and that made it kind of impossible.

I was iffy on the "brand new galaxy" concept of Andromeda at first, it sounded like a massive cop-out, but it made some sense in-universe and I think leaned really well into the more Star Trek style of ME1.

But again, mileage will no doubt vary.

JenSeven said:
The Montreal Branch frankly didn't deserve to be handed the franchise, as all they previously did was the Multiplayer, which didn't involve making the character models or write the story. And now they are downgraded to 'online support' which means that they will only be working on the Multiplayer, so no more fixes to the main game nor DLC.
FWIW I'm think Montreal were responsible for story DLC on the previous games too - as for whether they had the expertise to be handed the keys to the franchise, who knows what went into making that decision.
 

votemarvel

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I do wonder if the best way to revive the Mass effect franchise would be for Bioware to make a choice and pick one of the three original ME3 endings as canon. They do this for Dragon Age and form a story around it (such as Leliana being able to grow her head back.)

Personally I'd go with destroy as it removes the Reapers from the table and leaves the potential for AI to survive. There would have to be some remote Geth out there who never got the Reaper upgrades and so wouldn't have taken the hit. Perhaps a back-up of EDI could be found but because of the differences in her bluebox, you have to learn what there is to know about EDI's 'sister'.

How to get around those three other endings (synthesis, control, and the added refuse)? Well you could never make everyone happy but it could easily be addressed. Have Shepard talking to someone, an old squadmate or perhaps a new protagonist before we take control of them. Have Shepard talk about the weird dream that they had and how they actually kind of liked it.

I really think that would work. The Milky Way is a big place. Plenty still here to explore.
 

AD-Stu

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Yeah they could absolutely do that - I don't think the move to a different galaxy was in itself a massive problem though, it was more what they chose to do when they got there and the execution errors that were the problem.
 

immortalfrieza

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fi6eka said:
immortalfrieza said:
.....Mass Effect Andromeda is a very good game with great story, characters, and gameplay with an incredible amount of potential......
Apparently stating a fact is laugh worthy around here. Andromeda IS a very good game by any objective standard, the shooting is fluid and tactical, the graphics are gorgeous, the story is gripping, the characters are fun and avoid being too cliched, the exploration is varied and avoids getting repetitive... all that isn't enough for a fanbase that is never EVER satisfied.
 

Sheo_Dagana

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Some things you just can't write a sequel to, and Mass Effect is one of them. I haven't played Andromeda yet, but the tidbits I was getting from friends made me think "gee, that's pretty fucking stupid" more times than I would care for.

I'm sad that a franchise I loved from a developer I like (don't give a shit about their 'political agenda') had to get dragged through the mud one last time before EA finally realized that maybe you can't continually cash-in on franchises and expect your consumers to just smile while you piss in their face, but maybe now they'll get their shit together. I feel bad for the people that liked the game in-spite of it's faults, and hey, maybe a sequel would have done better, but it's better than EA beating soulless sequels out of Bioware's B-Team just for the sake of getting more stuff out there.
 

Steven Bogos

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immortalfrieza said:
fi6eka said:
immortalfrieza said:
.....Mass Effect Andromeda is a very good game with great story, characters, and gameplay with an incredible amount of potential......
Apparently stating a fact is laugh worthy around here. Andromeda IS a very good game by any objective standard, the shooting is fluid and tactical, the graphics are gorgeous, the story is gripping, the characters are fun and avoid being too cliched, the exploration is varied and avoids getting repetitive... all that isn't enough for a fanbase that is never EVER satisfied.
Ok, now that gif is justified.
 
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Hopefully EA have at least learned that pushing out a game that is clearly not ready just to make quarterly earnings call is ultimately self defeating. In addition to the lost sales as a result of the horrible PR around the launch, how much brand damage has Mass Effect and Bioware sustained as a result of this debacle? There's no avoiding the fact that this is at least partially a management induced own-goal.
 

Jamcie Kerbizz

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MC1980 said:
immortalfrieza said:
fi6eka said:
immortalfrieza said:
.....Mass Effect Andromeda is a very good game with great story, characters, and gameplay with an incredible amount of potential......
Apparently stating a fact is laugh worthy around here. Andromeda IS a very good game by any objective standard, the shooting is fluid and tactical, the graphics are gorgeous, the story is gripping, the characters are fun and avoid being too cliched, the exploration is varied and avoids getting repetitive... all that isn't enough for a fanbase that is never EVER satisfied.
Ok, now that gif is justified.
Reading comments here recently is like like watching these poor bastards struggle




it's hilarious but if you dare to laugh you're instantly called a dick.
 

TT Kairen

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immortalfrieza said:
fi6eka said:
immortalfrieza said:
.....Mass Effect Andromeda is a very good game with great story, characters, and gameplay with an incredible amount of potential......
Apparently stating a fact is laugh worthy around here. Andromeda IS a very good game by any objective standard, the shooting is fluid and tactical, the graphics are gorgeous, the story is gripping, the characters are fun and avoid being too cliched, the exploration is varied and avoids getting repetitive... all that isn't enough for a fanbase that is never EVER satisfied.
Don't bother trying to communicate with disgruntled ex-fans. It's like trying to explain why fair YouTube policies and free advertising through word of mouth are good to a Nintendrone. You're just bashing your head into a brick wall of stupid.
 

Squilookle

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Now we just need the same to happen to Battlefront 2 and just maybe EA will give that a rest for a bit too
 

Frankster

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Eugh there is nothing worst then an unfinished story.. Ok that's a lie, there's tons worst but this is still pretty annoying if you were invested in the story despite the criticisms.

I was waiting to get the game at a later stage personally but this somewhat killed my desire, I'd much rather take a chance on a few steam indie games rather then run the risk of actually liking ME:A then getting salty as hell that most of the questions don't get answered and the ending is a big "to be continued" that never will be continued.

Guess EA gonna EA.
 

kuolonen

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Well seeing as they made Mass Effect inquisition with basically no renegade way of doing things, or thats the gist of what I've gotten from watching gameplay from youtube, I am not going to cry rivers over this. Fingers crossed that next project wont be such a pancake, though knowing EA thats probably too much to ask.
 

Jamcie Kerbizz

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I just wish someone made continuation of Vampire the Masquerade:Bloodlines.
Just probably now they would need to put in jabs at leftist nonsense attacking games instead of right wackos doing so.
Think that was the only game in which I could spend hours listening to things going on in the background.
Bah I'll re-install it today :S
 

TT Kairen

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fi6eka said:
I sence a great disturbance in the Buthurt.Projecting a bit hard aren't we sweety?Did i offent your magnificent and unreproachable taste in video games so hard, that it led you to making pathetic ad hominem attacks?
Jut FYI - the only thing i was a fanboy of was Fallout and that was before Bethesda decided to brutally murder and then rape the still twitching corpse of one of my favourite rpgs.
I don't know what's more hilarious; the fact that you just succinctly proved my point, or the fact that you countered a "pathetic ad hominem" with a pathetic ad hominem.

Though in fairness I will completely cede one point.

Waifus/husbandos and tumblerites who only care if there is an NPC that self-idenifies as a tapeworm.
I don't know if you caught this in the game, but they apparently made male-pronoun-preference asari a thing. Despite the fact that they have no biological equivalent, and prior to becoming spacefaring, would have little concept of what male *is*, because muh-progresshun.
 

FoolKiller

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Imre Csete said:
TheVampwizimp said:
Well, this sucks. I was very happy to be surprised at how good Andromeda is, and sequels were clearly planned for it. If it really is over it will be a sad case of a good franchise killed by a shitty fan base, and that just upsets me.
No good Sir, there comes a time when you can no longer blame the Toxic Community? for everything bad.

This was EA cashing in on the brand name, with the B team handling a project that was way over their heads.
I'm with Vampwizimp... I liked it.

Sure the first 10 hours were a drag but I found that to be true of Mass Effect as well, and I love that game. Once you meet the Angaran and the story picks up, it becomes a great game. I don't care for the facial animation during convos anyways. I care about the way the game looks during gameplay and the story in this case. Both were excellent.
 

breadsammich

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I think Totalbiscuit said it best when he said that if ever there was a 7/10 game in the truest sense, this would be it. The problem is that too many people see this as a binary state. The game is either amazing or the worst game ever. How many people who would have *actually* enjoyed the game were dissuaded by this scorched-earth hate policy? If there were more voices saying, "yeah, it's a pretty fun, yet flawed game", which I think is the case, you might have more people picking it up and having a decent time of it.

It's gotten to the point where I don't give any weight to any criticism that doesn't have at least one praise. I mean come on, you mean to tell me you started up the game and didn't have an ounce of fun from the second you started? There was no redeeming quality to the game? I'm sure it happens, but not as often as the internet seems to indicate. Overall I loved Andromeda, but I'm not looking for a mindblowing experience, nor do I really have high expectations for just about any game. I'm pretty easy to please, and I'm sure there are a lot of people out there like me. I hope there weren't many turned away by the vitriol.
 

Pinky's Brain

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Adam Jensen said:
The ultimate message is to STOP PREORDERING GAMES!
I have a very simple policy, if I liked the last game from a developer I'll preorder the next one.

I cheated a bit with pre-ordering ME3, but at least the multiplayer saved it.
 

Pinky's Brain

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Sheo_Dagana said:
Some things you just can't write a sequel to, and Mass Effect is one of them.
An intentional choice by McCasey of course, which is why I agree with the poster who said that the ME3 ending was entirely on Bioware.
 

AD-Stu

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Bilious Green said:
Hopefully EA have at least learned that pushing out a game that is clearly not ready just to make quarterly earnings call is ultimately self defeating. In addition to the lost sales as a result of the horrible PR around the launch, how much brand damage has Mass Effect and Bioware sustained as a result of this debacle? There's no avoiding the fact that this is at least partially a management induced own-goal.
Partially, sure, but I think a lot of this has to be put back on Bioware: they did have five years and a AAA budget to make this game after all.

If they gave them more time and money I think you definitely get better QA and better animation. But I don't know that you necessarily get better pacing or writing or a better overall concept.
 

pookie101

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im not surprised its put on hold when EA were expecting sales of 6-9 M units basically the same if not more sales than ME3.. there is no way it was going to achieve that level
 

Orga777

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pookie101 said:
im not surprised its put on hold when EA were expecting sales of 6-9 M units basically the same if not more sales than ME3.. there is no way it was going to achieve that level
Really? These sales expectations of big AAA companies are getting more and more ridiculous...
 

pookie101

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Orga777 said:
pookie101 said:
im not surprised its put on hold when EA were expecting sales of 6-9 M units basically the same if not more sales than ME3.. there is no way it was going to achieve that level
Really? These sales expectations of big AAA companies are getting more and more ridiculous...
i know right..

ME3 the end of a beloved trilogy sold 6M units and they were expecting the start of this new one to make that or more..
 

Steven Bogos

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EA's sales expectations for MEA were 3 million on launch, 6 million lifetime sales. "Lifetime" I assume meaning a couple of years, and not the 5 years it took ME3 to reach that number.

By the by, that's not all that unreasonable. It's inline with the growth shown between previous entries. Of course that doesn't account for ME3 being shit and burning people, plus MEA looking more garbage the closer it got to release.
 

AD-Stu

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MC1980 said:
By the by, that's not all that unreasonable. It's inline with the growth shown between previous entries. Of course that doesn't account for ME3 being shit and burning people, plus MEA looking more garbage the closer it got to release.
Yeah it's the ME3 aftermath that's the biggest problem IMO - there's just now way they shouldn't have revised expectations for the next game downwards after the *ahem* passionate and prolonged response ME3 got. Plus ME3 had the benefit of being marketed as the ending to an existing trilogy, so they could be pretty certain people who'd bought the previous games were going to want to get the final one.

They had to know they burned a pretty big portion of the marketplace with ME3, and what marketing I saw for MEA didn't really do anything to reach out to those people and convince them to come back.
 

Poetic Nova

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TT Kairen said:
I don't know if you caught this in the game, but they apparently made male-pronoun-preference asari a thing. Despite the fact that they have no biological equivalent, and prior to becoming spacefaring, would have little concept of what male *is*, because muh-progresshun.
I'm all in for more diversity in gaming, but I don't agree on it if it as hamfisted as this.
 

votemarvel

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TT Kairen said:
I don't know if you caught this in the game, but they apparently made male-pronoun-preference asari a thing. Despite the fact that they have no biological equivalent, and prior to becoming spacefaring, would have little concept of what male *is*, because muh-progresshun.
It's highly unlikely that every species on Thessia reproduced like the Asari, so it is very likely that as a species the Asari would have a concept of male and female.

However them using male terms to refer to themselves isn't a new thing. Matriarch Aethyta refers to herself as Liara's father and rebukes Shepard who explains that on Earth they would both be referred to as the Mother.

So I don't see how it is a huge problem that some Asari prefer to be considered the 'males' of their society.
 

Metalix Knightmare

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votemarvel said:
TT Kairen said:
I don't know if you caught this in the game, but they apparently made male-pronoun-preference asari a thing. Despite the fact that they have no biological equivalent, and prior to becoming spacefaring, would have little concept of what male *is*, because muh-progresshun.
It's highly unlikely that every species on Thessia reproduced like the Asari, so it is very likely that as a species the Asari would have a concept of male and female.

However them using male terms to refer to themselves isn't a new thing. Matriarch Aethyta refers to herself as Liara's father and rebukes Shepard who explains that on Earth they would both be referred to as the Mother.

So I don't see how it is a huge problem that some Asari prefer to be considered the 'males' of their society.
Primarily because they're actually lacking in male terms. Remember Patriarch on Omega? Aria gave him that name as an insult because it's a completely meaningless word to Asari. In all honesty, the use of mother and father with Asari couples are most likely just the closest equivalent the translators provide. Heck, Liara's father was basically using that term to get the point across quickly.
 

AD-Stu

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TT Kairen said:
I don't know if you caught this in the game, but they apparently made male-pronoun-preference asari a thing. Despite the fact that they have no biological equivalent, and prior to becoming spacefaring, would have little concept of what male *is*, because muh-progresshun.
If that happened I completely missed it... and I've been playing about 150 hours at this point. Do you remember where it was?

I remember the super-unsubtle transsexual NPC that got patched out for whatever reason, but not this.
 

TT Kairen

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AD-Stu said:
TT Kairen said:
I don't know if you caught this in the game, but they apparently made male-pronoun-preference asari a thing. Despite the fact that they have no biological equivalent, and prior to becoming spacefaring, would have little concept of what male *is*, because muh-progresshun.
If that happened I completely missed it... and I've been playing about 150 hours at this point. Do you remember where it was?

I remember the super-unsubtle transsexual NPC that got patched out for whatever reason, but not this.
It's an ambient conversation between the asari and the angaran ambassador in the Cultural Exchange Center on the Nexus, so it's easy to miss, especially if you're there for a certain mission with the VI right next to them.
 

TT Kairen

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votemarvel said:
TT Kairen said:
I don't know if you caught this in the game, but they apparently made male-pronoun-preference asari a thing. Despite the fact that they have no biological equivalent, and prior to becoming spacefaring, would have little concept of what male *is*, because muh-progresshun.
It's highly unlikely that every species on Thessia reproduced like the Asari, so it is very likely that as a species the Asari would have a concept of male and female.

However them using male terms to refer to themselves isn't a new thing. Matriarch Aethyta refers to herself as Liara's father and rebukes Shepard who explains that on Earth they would both be referred to as the Mother.

So I don't see how it is a huge problem that some Asari prefer to be considered the 'males' of their society.
In addition to Metalix Nightmare's reply above, while they would have a concept of male and female (possibly, the fauna of Thessia has not been explored), gender dysphoria would be an impossibility for them. Asari have been described as 'all-female' by the codex, and mono-gendered by Liara, our primary source of asari information. Since they are all biologically female, they cannot disassociate with their sex/gender because there is no alternative that they could have been born as.
 

breadsammich

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Poetic Nova said:
TT Kairen said:
I don't know if you caught this in the game, but they apparently made male-pronoun-preference asari a thing. Despite the fact that they have no biological equivalent, and prior to becoming spacefaring, would have little concept of what male *is*, because muh-progresshun.
I'm all in for more diversity in gaming, but I don't agree on it if it as hamfisted as this.
I don't see how a brief and easy-to-miss conversation between two npc's is "hamfisted". A trans character blurting their backstory--that's a bit hamfisted. But even Bioware acknowledged that one was a little goofy and insensitive.
 

AD-Stu

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TT Kairen said:
In addition to Metalix Nightmare's reply above, while they would have a concept of male and female (possibly, the fauna of Thessia has not been explored), gender dysphoria would be an impossibility for them. Asari have been described as 'all-female' by the codex, and mono-gendered by Liara, our primary source of asari information. Since they are all biologically female, they cannot disassociate with their sex/gender because there is no alternative that they could have been born as.
*shrugs*

They've been around other sentient species that identify as male/female for thousands of years. Maybe some of them resented being automatically labelled as "female" by all the other species, or thought they felt more male than female once they discovered the meaning of the terms or whatever. Who are we to tell them what they feel?

Either way, this is a massive storm in a teacup IMO.
 

Metalix Knightmare

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AD-Stu said:
TT Kairen said:
In addition to Metalix Nightmare's reply above, while they would have a concept of male and female (possibly, the fauna of Thessia has not been explored), gender dysphoria would be an impossibility for them. Asari have been described as 'all-female' by the codex, and mono-gendered by Liara, our primary source of asari information. Since they are all biologically female, they cannot disassociate with their sex/gender because there is no alternative that they could have been born as.
*shrugs*

They've been around other sentient species that identify as male/female for thousands of years. Maybe some of them resented being automatically labelled as "female" by all the other species, or thought they felt more male than female once they discovered the meaning of the terms or whatever. Who are we to tell them what they feel?

Either way, this is a massive storm in a teacup IMO.
I'd call it more an easily missed tip of the iceburg.

Continuing on, WHY would Asari resent automatically being labeled female when by all accounts they didn't have a need to even come up with any words for males until they met the Salarians? That would be like a human taking offense at being labeled human.

The whole exercise is basically taking human mindsets and forcing them onto a non-human species. Legion's loyalty mission in ME2 goes into this. Humans and Asari have a lot of similarities, but the two are still VERY different in terms of cultural upbringing, and biology. An Asari would have absolutely no real basis for wanting to be seen as male simply because there are no male Asari. An Asari going around calling herself male would probably be looked at like Humans look at Otherkin.

Really, this whole mess is just indicative of just how BAD the writing has gotten at Bioware as of late. ME1 and even 2 managed to keep a fair bit of this stuff in mind when it came to establishing their universe, whereas the current crop seem more interested in virtue signaling (to the point that it looks like you can't even be an asshole in this game like you could with Shepard) than expanding or working with a universe.
 

AD-Stu

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Metalix Knightmare said:
I'd call it more an easily missed tip of the iceburg.

Continuing on, WHY would Asari resent automatically being labeled female when by all accounts they didn't have a need to even come up with any words for males until they met the Salarians? That would be like a human taking offense at being labeled human.

The whole exercise is basically taking human mindsets and forcing them onto a non-human species. Legion's loyalty mission in ME2 goes into this. Humans and Asari have a lot of similarities, but the two are still VERY different in terms of cultural upbringing, and biology. An Asari would have absolutely no real basis for wanting to be seen as male simply because there are no male Asari. An Asari going around calling herself male would probably be looked at like Humans look at Otherkin.

Really, this whole mess is just indicative of just how BAD the writing has gotten at Bioware as of late. ME1 and even 2 managed to keep a fair bit of this stuff in mind when it came to establishing their universe, whereas the current crop seem more interested in virtue signaling (to the point that it looks like you can't even be an asshole in this game like you could with Shepard) than expanding or working with a universe.
I'll concede one point: this isn't something the writing team at Bioware needed to do. It's pretty clearly something they did because they wanted to be inclusive, and maybe to start conversations like this one, or maybe to make their game appeal to a broader human audience.

As for the rest, all that can really be said is that just because you can't see "a real basis for wanting to be seen as male" doesn't mean someone else couldn't, or that one couldn't exist.
 

Metalix Knightmare

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AD-Stu said:
Metalix Knightmare said:
I'd call it more an easily missed tip of the iceburg.

Continuing on, WHY would Asari resent automatically being labeled female when by all accounts they didn't have a need to even come up with any words for males until they met the Salarians? That would be like a human taking offense at being labeled human.

The whole exercise is basically taking human mindsets and forcing them onto a non-human species. Legion's loyalty mission in ME2 goes into this. Humans and Asari have a lot of similarities, but the two are still VERY different in terms of cultural upbringing, and biology. An Asari would have absolutely no real basis for wanting to be seen as male simply because there are no male Asari. An Asari going around calling herself male would probably be looked at like Humans look at Otherkin.

Really, this whole mess is just indicative of just how BAD the writing has gotten at Bioware as of late. ME1 and even 2 managed to keep a fair bit of this stuff in mind when it came to establishing their universe, whereas the current crop seem more interested in virtue signaling (to the point that it looks like you can't even be an asshole in this game like you could with Shepard) than expanding or working with a universe.
I'll concede one point: this isn't something the writing team at Bioware needed to do. It's pretty clearly something they did because they wanted to be inclusive, and maybe to start conversations like this one, or maybe to make their game appeal to a broader human audience.

As for the rest, all that can really be said is that just because you can't see "a real basis for wanting to be seen as male" doesn't mean someone else couldn't, or that one couldn't exist.
You're still thinking of this from a human perspective, both biologically and mentally. Male exclusive words such as Patriarch just don't EXIST with Asari, nor does the male gender. There is absolutely no reason for an Asari to think of themselves as male outside of some kind of otherkin equivalent. Even by the standards set by people with gender dysphoria, a male identifying Asari makes absolutely no sense! A good bit of the science backing that up is that some people are born with brain patterns of the other gender (A gross oversimplification, but you get the point.) which is not something that would be an issue in a species that has no gender variety.

The absolute closest thing you could get are Asari that prefer women above men, and even that makes more sense just from an evolutionary stand point. Even with the risk of Ardat Yakshi, the idea that a species wouldn't seek to breed with it's own kind is pretty out there.
 

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Metalix Knightmare said:
You're still thinking of this from a human perspective, both biologically and mentally. Male exclusive words such as Patriarch just don't EXIST with Asari, nor does the male gender. There is absolutely no reason for an Asari to think of themselves as male outside of some kind of otherkin equivalent. Even by the standards set by people with gender dysphoria, a male identifying Asari makes absolutely no sense! A good bit of the science backing that up is that some people are born with brain patterns of the other gender (A gross oversimplification, but you get the point.) which is not something that would be an issue in a species that has no gender variety.

The absolute closest thing you could get are Asari that prefer women above men, and even that makes more sense just from an evolutionary stand point. Even with the risk of Ardat Yakshi, the idea that a species wouldn't seek to breed with it's own kind is pretty out there.
If male exclusive words wouldn't make sense in Asari, why would female ones? Why, in their native language, would a mono-gendered species adhere to one half of a gender binary? I mean, they aren't "female" in the same way as they aren't "male", so why do all our human language translators peg them as one?

So an Asari gets resentful that, due to automatic translators, other fucking species have pegged them as all being an arbitrary gender present in their own other species and decides they want to be referred to as the other one.
 

Metalix Knightmare

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altnameJag said:
Metalix Knightmare said:
You're still thinking of this from a human perspective, both biologically and mentally. Male exclusive words such as Patriarch just don't EXIST with Asari, nor does the male gender. There is absolutely no reason for an Asari to think of themselves as male outside of some kind of otherkin equivalent. Even by the standards set by people with gender dysphoria, a male identifying Asari makes absolutely no sense! A good bit of the science backing that up is that some people are born with brain patterns of the other gender (A gross oversimplification, but you get the point.) which is not something that would be an issue in a species that has no gender variety.

The absolute closest thing you could get are Asari that prefer women above men, and even that makes more sense just from an evolutionary stand point. Even with the risk of Ardat Yakshi, the idea that a species wouldn't seek to breed with it's own kind is pretty out there.
If male exclusive words wouldn't make sense in Asari, why would female ones? Why, in their native language, would a mono-gendered species adhere to one half of a gender binary? I mean, they aren't "female" in the same way as they aren't "male", so why do all our human language translators peg them as one?

So an Asari gets resentful that, due to automatic translators, other fucking species have pegged them as all being an arbitrary gender present in their own other species and decides they want to be referred to as the other one.
Why use female ones? Translation convenience to put it bluntly. They look female, so for the sake of convenience everyone uses female pronouns with the translators to speed things along. (I can see why the most diplomatic of the races would rather not have to work out preferred pronouns with other species when they're the ONLY ones this really presents much of an issue with.)

Not to mention we only hear it, again, from the human perspective. For all we know the Asari translation defaults to Donor for males and Receiver for females, or whatever they would use, and given how Asari reproduction works that's more along the lines of who's on top during sex more than gender.

As for why human translators would default to female? Well, if it looks like a duck, quack's like a duck, and has pretty much all of the anatomy a female human would have, it's female for all intents and purposes.

And why would an Asari want to be referred to as the male gender, when all of their similarities are with the female one? Again, this would be like a human claiming that he identifies as a wolf.
 

AD-Stu

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Metalix Knightmare said:
And why would an Asari want to be referred to as the male gender, when all of their similarities are with the female one? Again, this would be like a human claiming that he identifies as a wolf.
So first thing's first, let's just acknowwledge that we're talking about a fictional race of video game aliens, in a video game series whose creators have been happy to just change its mythology if it suits them. You're taking this way too seriously.

That said: if I'm an asari, I find out humans are referring to me as "female" and that many of those humans consider "females" to be the weaker gender or whatever, I'd probably be pissed and want to know why I couldn't call myself a male - y'know, since I have no actual gender and it doesn't matter anyway.

Your whole argument is basically "they should be OK with being called female because they have boobs".
 

Metalix Knightmare

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AD-Stu said:
Metalix Knightmare said:
And why would an Asari want to be referred to as the male gender, when all of their similarities are with the female one? Again, this would be like a human claiming that he identifies as a wolf.
So first thing's first, let's just acknowwledge that we're talking about a fictional race of video game aliens, in a video game series whose creators have been happy to just change its mythology if it suits them. You're taking this way too seriously.

That said: if I'm an asari, I find out humans are referring to me as "female" and that many of those humans consider "females" to be the weaker gender or whatever, I'd probably be pissed and want to know why I couldn't call myself a male - y'know, since I have no actual gender and it doesn't matter anyway.

Your whole argument is basically "they should be OK with being called female because they have boobs".
It's not just boobs. Every single Asari is capable of giving birth too, which is something that is generally unique to the females of any species. (Even Seahorse males don't really give birth so much as just carry the eggs in a pouch.)

Not to mention, "and that many of those humans consider "females" to be the weaker gender". Do you even play Mass Effect games? Pretty much no one has ever been shown thinking that by that point. Ever. If there are holdouts to that kind of mentality, they're a minority that's small enough to be considered a rounding error. So not only are you looking at this from a human perspective, but a MODERN human perspective when the ME games have over 100 years of changes.

And that's not even getting into how other species look at things such as the Turians which are pretty damn equal in their gender's rights, and the Salarians (Also known as the FIRST space-fairing species that the Asari met) where the women are the ones running the show. By all accounts the only other species that had humanity's hangups with women are the Krogan, and even then, (as I stated before) humanity is pretty much done with the sexism bit. Basically there was only one species out there that would give Asari a negative opinion on being called female.

Also, when the fans start taking the lore more seriously than the devs, that's a pretty bad problem with the devs. Yes, you can do whatever you want with a universe you made, but you need to stick to established rules, otherwise any sense of dramatic tension just goes right out the window.

Also, people on a gaming website taking a game's story and lore seriosly?

 

AD-Stu

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Metalix Knightmare said:
And that's not even getting into how other species look at things such as the Turians which are pretty damn equal in their gender's rights, and the Salarians (Also known as the FIRST space-fairing species that the Asari met) where the women are the ones running the show. By all accounts the only other species that had humanity's hangups with women are the Krogan, and even then, (as I stated before) humanity is pretty much done with the sexism bit. Basically there was only one species out there that would give Asari a negative opinion on being called female.
The turians that consider females so equal that we literally don't see a female turian until the DLC for the third game? :p
 

Metalix Knightmare

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AD-Stu said:
Metalix Knightmare said:
And that's not even getting into how other species look at things such as the Turians which are pretty damn equal in their gender's rights, and the Salarians (Also known as the FIRST space-fairing species that the Asari met) where the women are the ones running the show. By all accounts the only other species that had humanity's hangups with women are the Krogan, and even then, (as I stated before) humanity is pretty much done with the sexism bit. Basically there was only one species out there that would give Asari a negative opinion on being called female.
The turians that consider females so equal that we literally don't see a female turian until the DLC for the third game? :p
That's an issue with the devs and I'm pretty certain you're aware of that. Heck, with the established lore of the Turians it would've been weird for that NOT to be the case.
 

AD-Stu

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Metalix Knightmare said:
AD-Stu said:
Metalix Knightmare said:
And that's not even getting into how other species look at things such as the Turians which are pretty damn equal in their gender's rights, and the Salarians (Also known as the FIRST space-fairing species that the Asari met) where the women are the ones running the show. By all accounts the only other species that had humanity's hangups with women are the Krogan, and even then, (as I stated before) humanity is pretty much done with the sexism bit. Basically there was only one species out there that would give Asari a negative opinion on being called female.
The turians that consider females so equal that we literally don't see a female turian until the DLC for the third game? :p
That's an issue with the devs and I'm pretty certain you're aware of that. Heck, with the established lore of the Turians it would've been weird for that NOT to be the case.
Erm... what established lore are you talking about where it would've been weird for there to be female turians around? I mean they're referred to off-screen all the time, and they're everywhere in Andromeda. In-game, it's blatantly weird not to see any.

But yes, I'm aware of the meta development resources reasons for there being only male turians in the first few games. That was my point though, and it comes back to your "quacks like a duck" comment: asari "quack" (look female) in part because for resourcing reasons they're just a blue head stuck on a human female body.

If the devs had more resources from the outset maybe that wouldn't have been the case. Or maybe it still would have been, because the whole race was pretty clearly conceived to appeal to the mostly-male audience of the game.

Also if we're saying that the Mass Effect universe is done with sexism then why do we only see human females and asari dancing in skimpy outfits in the bars during the OT? Ashley even comments on it walking into Chora's Den in ME1 - that you can go halfway across the galaxy, but some attitudes still persist. It's just one example for current-day gender attitudes still existing, but it's definitely there.

ANYWHO: the whole point the devs seem to have been making is that people should be allowed to identify whichever way they want to identify. So: is it possible that an asari somewhere, someday, for some reason, having seen the way gender labels are used in other species, would want to identify as male? You're twisting yourself into an increasingly convoluted logical pretzel to find the "no", when it's super-easy to come up with a whole bunch of scenarios for "yes".

And let's face it, when people say they have a problem with this, what are they really saying? Are they really upset that Bioware are messing with sanctity of the in-game lore, even though it's something they've always done and always will do? If that's that's true in your case, then I applaud your dedication. But for a lot of people I suspect it's not really the lore-messing they're concerned with, but that those damn Bioware SJWs are trying to force queer stuff into their space fantasy time...