Review: Star Ocean: The Last Hope

itsmeyouidiot

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Yeah, Star Ocean 4 is decent. Not great, not groundbreaking, but it'll get the job done.

JRPGs can be good if done well, but a lot of them just seem to fall flat. It would probably be best if they stuck to handheld consoles.
 

Say Anything

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Jan 23, 2008
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Star Ocean was great.

Star Ocean: The Second Story was GREAT.

Star Ocean: 'Til the End of Time was great.

Find it hard to believe that as they evolved they'd kill the series. Everyone has their own opinions, and I'm not saying your's is wrong, but everything in the video looked fine, and you seem to be mixing "obnoxiously happy" with "bad" on the voice acting; or at least for the clips you've shown. That's kinda how all the Star Ocean games are, and if you find it THAT irritating I'd hate to see you play 25% of the other JRPGs out there.

You don't have to be a die-hard fan to enjoy Star Ocean 4, and unfortunately that's the message conveyed by the review. I dunno, I don't want to sound insulting, but I'm not sure this review did much justice. It felt very "Yahtzee" to me.
 

John Funk

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Dec 20, 2005
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DRADIS C0ntact said:
CantFaketheFunk said:
If the genre doesn't evolve, it deserves to go extinct.
Not sure I follow you on this one. Honestly now, the FPS genre hasn't evolved that much over the years either. The graphics got flashier, the animations are nicer, some of them have a few neat features that others don't. All of this is true for JRPGs as well. But just like JRPGs, the real meat and potatoes of the FPS experienced hasn't changed much over time. This is the basic formula of just about every FPS ever released: You, the player, run around and shoot things. But I don't hear people saying that the FPS genre is a relic. Why is that?
Because I think the FPS genre *has* been evolving. It's been experimenting with new ways to tell stories (see: Portal, Half-Life, Bioshock, CoD4), along with occasional new gameplay ideas. As JRPGs have evolved, most of them have just become more movielike. In this case, you might as well just be watching a bad sci-fi movie every five steps.

Say Anything said:
Star Ocean was great.

Star Ocean: The Second Story was GREAT.

Star Ocean: 'Til the End of Time was great.

Find it hard to believe that as they evolved they'd kill the series. Everyone has their own opinions, and I'm not saying your's is wrong, but everything in the video looked fine, and you seem to be mixing "obnoxiously happy" with "bad" on the voice acting; or at least for the clips you've shown. That's kinda how all the Star Ocean games are, and if you find it THAT irritating I'd hate to see you play 25% of the other JRPGs out there.

You don't have to be a die-hard fan to enjoy Star Ocean 4, and unfortunately that's the message conveyed by the review. I dunno, I don't want to sound insulting, but I'm not sure this review did much justice. It felt very "Yahtzee" to me.
Unfortunately, I didn't have any saves right before a Welch cutscene, because those are the really unbearable ones.

I'm sorry you don't feel that the review did the game justice, but I tried to accurately convey my experience with it.
 

Dorian Cornelius Jasper

Space Robot From Outer Space
Apr 8, 2008
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Slycne said:
-Game with voice acting, but it's terrible.
-Game without any voice acting, but maybe that money was invested into a new feature.
As a longtime vet of many a JRPG, not to mention more mainstream genres, I'm going to have to go with the latter. Definitely the latter. I wouldn't mind developers moving money away from presentation and more towards development.

Though occasionally a game like Mass Effect comes along where spoken dialogue really adds to the product as a whole*, but these are rare.

*With the exception of poor, bland male Shepard. It's a shame that he's the default Shepard, since Jennifer Hale's performance as female Shepard was top-notch.
 

bad rider

The prodigal son of a goat boy
Dec 23, 2007
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Wait the combat was good and the plot was bad? How very backward for a JRPG.
 

cj_iwakura

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xmetatr0nx said:
sanzo said:
xmetatr0nx said:
haha "was paid for playing SO4 and still hated it". Squarenix JRPGs have always felt like something made on a production line, same old parts, just slightly different paint slapped over it. Arent the japanese supposed to be hard working? For someone who could care less about over dramatic stories filled with very long cut scenes i never hold out much hope for most JRPGs. Playing this one last night reminded me of why ppl are still so caught up in FFVII, cos nothing better or different has come out yet.
Except almost every JRPG done by Atlus

Shin Megami Tensei > Final Fantasy
To be honest i dont think ive ever played an atlus JRPG, then again i dont check the box for who made it. Any good current games they have released?
There's your main problem. The developer is the most important thing.
 

the fifth

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Why do they even bother with voice actors. i will sit and read five pages of text from a game as long as it is good, well written stuff. They should skip the voice actors if they are not going to get people that have voices that not only mach the characters but also that the character is even worth finding an actor for. They really need to move away from the fourteen year olds. in my favorite of the star oceans, the second story one, the main character was nineteen or something. A young man, not a little kid, someone who could shoulder the responsibility of a dangerous mission, not someone who should be back in school.
 

Virgil

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Jun 13, 2002
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CantFaketheFunk said:
Star Ocean: The Last Hope shows how archaic JRPGs have become. In a word? It's hopeless.
Funk, I 90% agree with you. I finished the game a week or so ago - yes, I went through the whole thing. And I think I've figured out where everything went wrong.

First of all, what I thought went right. First, the aesthetics - the game looked gorgeous, and the audio was great. There really can't be any complaints there. Second, the mechanics - with the minor exception of the item creation process, the game mechanics were excellent. The skill system from previous games returned, with more variety, and the combat was genuinely fun. There were no random battles, the difficulty curve was on point, and the AI characters even behaved themselves.

The bad part, in my opinion, lies entirely on the writing. I think this was the most clichéd mess I've ever seen in a game (and I play a LOT of JRPGs - I know my clichéd messes).

First, the character designs are straight out of Anime Stereotypes 101. You have the moody, young, ambitious leader. His loyal childhood friend slash romantic interest. And their other childhood friend, the awesome perfect example of everything, god-like in everything he does. Oh, and they all have secret super-special powers.

Then you have the elf/vulcan. The magic-using child who speaks like a toddler, constantly. The hot elf chick wearing a cape and bikini. A giant robot. And a cat-girl and a bird-girl, constantly fighting but still friends, to fill in the anthropomorphism requirement. Oh, and eventually the taciturn, anti-social bad-ass who ends up having a heart of gold.

That's bad, but the dialogue is even worse. I actually don't blame the voice actors for anything - in fact, I think the voice acting was very well done. Technically. The blame lies entirely with the writers and producers, who seemingly designed these characters and their dialogue to maximize their annoyance value. The voice actors didn't do a bad job, they just had bad parts.

Second, the plot was just awful. Why did the story have to shift away from the original premise at all? To take a perfectly good story and then turn it on it's head so you can run a generic save-the-universe plot just seems stupid. Then we get the following:

[ol]
[li]An ambush by bugs (who are immune to guns but not swords)[/li]
[li]Spontaneous super-monster creation[/li]
[li]A derelict ship infected by a 'disease'[/li]
[li]Time/dimensional travel through a black hole[/li]
[li]Noble NPC sacrifices to save the party (several times)[/li]
[li]The main character becoming alternately confident and depressed[/li]
[li]Immediate acceptance as a new best friend any person that joins the team[/li]
[li]The ability to not realize the most obvious answers to conversation lines[/li]
[li]The ability to immediately jump to a conclusion and know it to be fact[/li]
[li]An ultimate betrayal (with ham-handed foreshadowing)[/li]
[/ol]

And finally, the ultimate in Anime clichés - the round-robin support speech. Where we need to go through every single character and have them give a supporting comment. This happens over and over and over and over again.

My new scale for judging how bad an RPG plot is is how many times the dialogue requires a character to have an entire line dedicated to saying just another character's name (usually with an ellipsis). But very emotionally, as if to carry the weight of an entire conversation that the writer is too clumsy and incompetent to write. At the top of that scale is Star Ocean 4.
 

Virgil

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Nazrel said:
Neither is anything by Square-Enix.
To be fair, Square-Enix didn't develop this game. They're the publisher. While that does have some influence, it's not at the level that this kind of terrible requires. This can be placed firmly in the hands of tri-Ace [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri-Ace].

The game isn't buggy, or shoved out the door, which are the kind of things you can usually blame on the publisher.

Say Anything said:
Star Ocean was great. Star Ocean: The Second Story was GREAT. Star Ocean: 'Til the End of Time was great. Find it hard to believe that as they evolved they'd kill the series.
I think the previous Star Ocean games were fantastic - I just finished replaying the first with the First Departure remake on the PSP, and was really looking forward to this one. And I finished this one. But he's right. The stories and dialogue in the previous games weren't always stellar, but this one is really bad. While playing, I felt like the writers found one of those '101 JRPG clichés' lists on the internet, and were using it as a checklist.
 

Doug

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DRADIS C0ntact said:
CantFaketheFunk said:
If the genre doesn't evolve, it deserves to go extinct.
Not sure I follow you on this one. Honestly now, the FPS genre hasn't evolved that much over the years either. The graphics got flashier, the animations are nicer, some of them have a few neat features that others don't. All of this is true for JRPGs as well. But just like JRPGs, the real meat and potatoes of the FPS experienced hasn't changed much over time. This is the basic formula of just about every FPS ever released: You, the player, run around and shoot things. But I don't hear people saying that the FPS genre is a relic. Why is that?
After thinking about this, I've come to a conclusion - some genres evolve into strong niche's that do something or a collection of somethings well, and hence relativity little changes (although in FPS, there is a world of difference between, say, Half Life 2 and Quake 4). They'll be a few varies (story lead FPS like Half Life, and action lead FPS like Serious Sam), but they'll have common roots.

We see this in real evolution (biology) - the shark and crodile, for example, have out lasted the dinosaurs, and continue to do what they do so well, they've not needed to 'majority' evolve in a long time. Varieties and mechanisms are bound to change, but ultimately, the same genous (if thats the right word) will carry on for a very, very, long time.

Some JRPGs are apparently evolving, according to the reviewer (Persona 4 he says), and that'll be a varity that could very well survive and spawn. But this type of 'Role Watching' game variety doesn't look to healthy as a species.
 

Demiath

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I was thinking about buying SO4, but the Escapist review and this discussion has convinced me that there's still no point in paying any attention at all to X360/PS3 JRPGs (with the notable exception of Sega's Valkyria Chronicles, of course).

Good thing I have lots of great Atlus PS2 games (Nocturne!) left to play after having finished Persona 4...
 

bakagami

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DRADIS C0ntact said:
CantFaketheFunk said:
If the genre doesn't evolve, it deserves to go extinct.
Not sure I follow you on this one. Honestly now, the FPS genre hasn't evolved that much over the years either. The graphics got flashier, the animations are nicer, some of them have a few neat features that others don't. All of this is true for JRPGs as well. But just like JRPGs, the real meat and potatoes of the FPS experienced hasn't changed much over time. This is the basic formula of just about every FPS ever released: You, the player, run around and shoot things. But I don't hear people saying that the FPS genre is a relic. Why is that?
that's cause FPS's aren't dependent on their story or voice acting what makes for a good (or bad) FPS depends on the weapons, AI, etc. You can't really change the core gameplay of an FPS, but new types of weaponry or tools that let u interact in the world in a different way are what keep the genre fresh. It can have a lame story & crappy voice acting and still be fun, like the original Half-Life, I personally made it a point to shoot every scientist in the head mid sentence (ah, good times, good times) & that is considered by many to be the best FPS ever. Not so w/ RPG's, if the story is crap w/ annoying voice actors then playing thru it can be like pulling teeth. But there have been attempts @ evolving the RPG whether for the bettor or worse. The Last Remnant is one example, while there are things I didn't like about the game, it is undeniably different than the average RPG. Fallout 3, Mass Effect, KOTOR 1 & 2 as well
 

Dectilon

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You play Edge Maverick (yes, that is unfortunately his actual name)
If I make a jrpg my protagonist will be called Steele Ballsian - Space Adventurer.

You can't really change the core gameplay of an FPS
Well, of course not. At least if you don't consider the changes made in Portal and Mirror's Edge "changes to the core gameplay". JRPG simply means japanese role-playing game while FPS means first-person shooter. You can fit a lot more within the boundries of the first acronym than within the second before it becomes another genre.

I think games like FF12 shows that the problem with jrpgs ultimately comes down to the writing, because there are people in the japanese game business whom are prepared to evolve gameplay. The writing is stuck and refuses to change for some reason, rehashing the same tired cat-girls, "mysterious" followers (that is to say, people who simply won't tell you the score until you get towards the end for no adequate reason) and emo gits.

Persona 3&4 abandons a few tripes, but it's still a veeery japanese series. The characters are dumb as toast, and the game treats the player likewise, reminding you of every single plot point, no matter how obvious it is. It also has it's fair share of toilet humor, primitive use of "rumors" as a way to get hints across and unreflected misogyny.

Now you might say (if you read all that...) "but what about the western space-marine syndrom?!?". Sure, I agree, that's not really any better. However, I attribute that more to a lack of good writers than a lack of trying. Jrpgs now and then manage to bring out a story of epic proportions, but then the game makers simply don't know how to present it, so it eventually gets filled with overtly long cut-scenes and cat-girls anyway. When companies like Obsidian and Double Fine get good ideas they don't start by bringing up the archetype checklist. Neither to make sure everything is in, nor to make sure that nothing is in. They simply try to give their story the best possible presentation.

At least that's the impression I get.

To summarize: The marketing departments of japanese companies need to give the creative teams more space, but since that won't happen the fate of the japanese export market lies in the hand of anime apologists and Hideo Kojima ;D
 

Say Anything

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Virgil said:
Say Anything said:
Star Ocean was great. Star Ocean: The Second Story was GREAT. Star Ocean: 'Til the End of Time was great. Find it hard to believe that as they evolved they'd kill the series.
I think the previous Star Ocean games were fantastic - I just finished replaying the first with the First Departure remake on the PSP, and was really looking forward to this one. And I finished this one. But he's right. The stories and dialogue in the previous games weren't always stellar, but this one is really bad. While playing, I felt like the writers found one of those '101 JRPG clichés' lists on the internet, and were using it as a checklist.
It could very well be possible. Seeing as how I haven't a 360 to play it on, I can't test it, but I'm not completely sure why it seems ruined because of over-the-top voice acting and a semi-bland story. Star Ocean: The Second Story/Evolution has very poor voice acting, and after the first disc the story becomes "kill the bad guys" (really). However, while it remained unheard of for quite a while, it still received very good scores, and I've seen it numerous times on various "Top 100" lists. How much someone enjoys the game is totally subjective and I wasn't trying to argue that, I was just stating that it's not so much about being a huge fan of Star Ocean or Square, and moreso about how much story you want in a game. Which is a totally, completely common factor for some when choosing a game and I respect that opinion. I'm just saying.
 

SargentToughie

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I'm going to go out on a limb here and respectfully disagree with Mr. Funk on this one

I have personally been a huge fan of the Star Ocean series for a long time now, and I find this installment to be very fun. And I for one don't mind the voice acting all that much, don't get me wrong, it's nothing great, but I think that Mr. Funk sort of exaggerated a little bit when he was talking about how horrible it is.

But it did lose points in my book for it's messed up packaging (3 disks in one case... really?)
 

Dectilon

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SargentToughie said:
I'm going to go out on a limb here and respectfully disagree with Mr. Funk on this one

I have personally been a huge fan of the Star Ocean series for a long time now, and I find this installment to be very fun. And I for one don't mind the voice acting all that much, don't get me wrong, it's nothing great, but I think that Mr. Funk sort of exaggerated a little bit when he was talking about how horrible it is.

But it did lose points in my book for it's messed up packaging (3 disks in one case... really?)
Let's hear an example of what you think is atrocious voicework then. I think you're just jaded...
 

Say Anything

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SargentToughie said:
I'm going to go out on a limb here and respectfully disagree with Mr. Funk on this one

I have personally been a huge fan of the Star Ocean series for a long time now, and I find this installment to be very fun. And I for one don't mind the voice acting all that much, don't get me wrong, it's nothing great, but I think that Mr. Funk sort of exaggerated a little bit when he was talking about how horrible it is.

But it did lose points in my book for it's messed up packaging (3 disks in one case... really?)
It was bound to happen, SO2 and SO3 both had two disks. haha