Letters? Pies?Iron Mal said:
RPG's need the statistics, otherwise it isn't what it claims to be.
RPGs Should Ditch the Stats
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RPG's need the statistics, otherwise it isn't what it claims to be.
my exact opinion. if it doesnt have those its gonna be kinda hard to create a RPG because that is one of the foundations of the genre unless they adopt a leveling system like mass effect which threw those statisics out and made you put points in to skills, powers, etc. after leveling up, which is slightly different but still has the core principle of you still creating a character you want, which is what most RPGs do. i.e baldurs gate at the beginning allows you to put a random number of stat points into your created charcter, still the same principle if you do something like mass effect.so either way it still ends up being statistics in mass effect just not the ones the Rpg fans are used to.Gxas said:
sorry if i seemed to ramble.
Probably around the time game critics/reviewers were insulting games for not being "innovative" enough with what they're doing, I reckon.AngloDoom said:
Here's a thought: First Person Shooters are being held back from their outdated reliance on actually fighting and having weapons. I posit that to advance the FPS genre, we should remove all sorts of weaponry and combat. After all, it's been 16 years since Doom came out. Isn't it time we advanced the genre?
Statistics=\=role-playing-game. Stats as seen are a relic from when, you know, we didn't have computers.Fat Man Spoon said:
I've been advocating something like this for a long time, but people are determined that games without states are "casual".
Any multiplayer RPG (computer or pen) with rules requires stats to differentiate the characters' avatars, their 'roles' if you will.
This is an ironclad law in all except the most free-form, narrative driven of games.
Even Dogs in the Vineyard and the FATE system have stats, their just not the normal ones. That I support wholeheartedly, but to deny stats is denying a building block.
This is an ironclad law in all except the most free-form, narrative driven of games.
Even Dogs in the Vineyard and the FATE system have stats, their just not the normal ones. That I support wholeheartedly, but to deny stats is denying a building block.
By removing the stats, doesn't that just make it like any other normal adventure game?
I think they should stick to the tradition RPG set up of improving your characters skills. That way it allows RPG players to stick with what they know.
I think they should stick to the tradition RPG set up of improving your characters skills. That way it allows RPG players to stick with what they know.
FPS' [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-person_shooter] are a relic of the past from when we didn't have consoles like we do today. Should we also discard the entire premise of the FPS genre simply because it's old (36 years old according to the article there.)vivaldiscool said:
Just because they're old doesn't mean they're to be discarded. Whether being without stats means you're "casual" or not is irrelevant. The sole argument here seems to be that stats=old=bad, and I can't agree with that.
You can never ditch stats, They are the building blocks of characters. I mean what are we going to do use colors?
I have a fighter that's green for combat actions but is only yellow in dodge actions
Wait how much in the green?
see if I said it with numbers then no one is confused and game can continue without to much frustration
I have a fighter that's green for combat actions but is only yellow in dodge actions
Wait how much in the green?
see if I said it with numbers then no one is confused and game can continue without to much frustration
What is a rpg without stats....just a hack n slash and we don't want that.
Stats just are appropriate in rpgs unless you have like 7 pages of stats that might be to long. But you don't want to be as strong in the beginning as you are in the end because that would be boring *cough* Halo *cough* and it wouldn't feel like you've accomplished anything.
Stats just are appropriate in rpgs unless you have like 7 pages of stats that might be to long. But you don't want to be as strong in the beginning as you are in the end because that would be boring *cough* Halo *cough* and it wouldn't feel like you've accomplished anything.
Tidball's an idiot. If you don't like stats, go play a different game. Don't expect everything to change for you when there're other options that fit your criteria. Think Fallout 3 has too many stats? Then go play Generic Shooter #3734.
Actually, even FPS' have stats. Your movement speed and jump-height are Agility. The amount of damage you can take is Endurance. So if you don't like stats, your only choices are Pong and Tetris.
Actually, even FPS' have stats. Your movement speed and jump-height are Agility. The amount of damage you can take is Endurance. So if you don't like stats, your only choices are Pong and Tetris.
Well...I guess statless RPGs are possible, but wouldn't that take a way a lot of the strategy aspects? Plus it takes away most of one's ability to customize their characters and abilities, as Amnestic mentioned above.
It's a good idea, but some serious thought and research would be necessary before trying to make all games follow this example.
It's a good idea, but some serious thought and research would be necessary before trying to make all games follow this example.
I think we should explore alternatives of defining a characters power. Having said that, the number-based effectiveness or power of individuals is what makes some games "intellectual" challenging, and not a test of agility (on the mouse and keyboard).
I guess an RPG without stats would just be an FPS, but without guns. So, would that be a first person fighter?
I like knowing what I excel at, and what I don't represented in numerical form. So the stats are nice for me.
Take an example from an actual longtime RPG 'Vampire: The Masquerade'. Whitewolf did well in getting rid of the standard numbers and created a system where you essentially had a higher or lower magnitude of an ability. Let's start by leaning in that direction.
I think the best example of an evolved RPG is truely Mass Effect. The idea here is simply that basic actions have been left up to the player while more complex abilities like Biotics and special training are where the "stat" points have gone. Granted they left a lot of stats like Melee and such on the items themselves but the majority of the action is based on the player. When you move, shoot or 'punch' you become only as good as your controller skills.
Can this move to pen and paper? Whitewolf pretty much already did a long time ago so I'm going to say yes. I think we need to start moving away from the basic stats and turning them into something less built by degree. When you boil it down to 'realism' you can ask yourself a simple question; What is the difference between 10 Str and 11 Str when someone punches you?
I think it boils down to unrealistic minutia. There is no real basis for stat comparison in the real world. With most MMORPGs having stats hit well into the triple digits at max level, those numbers become less and less connected to your role play. Ask almost anyone with a level 80 raider in WoW and they will likely tell you that they use their weapons and gear because they are x points better in stat y than some other item. Most items won't bestow special powers or abilities and your training as a character becomes bland. There's got to be some other options for change right?
My solution for a new standard runs along the same lines as Mass Effect and Whitewolf. You pick a number of aspects in which to grow your character such as physical, hardiness, perception and intellect. Then put ability trees in each of these befitting it's category. You want to be a fighter you'll want to buy things from the physical list. Now how you use these abilities and powers depends solely on how you roleplay them. The "stats" in the system can all just be put behind the screen where no one needs to see them. This normalizes everything while at the same time adding some amazing customizing options to every character. No "classes" required.
I think the best example of an evolved RPG is truely Mass Effect. The idea here is simply that basic actions have been left up to the player while more complex abilities like Biotics and special training are where the "stat" points have gone. Granted they left a lot of stats like Melee and such on the items themselves but the majority of the action is based on the player. When you move, shoot or 'punch' you become only as good as your controller skills.
Can this move to pen and paper? Whitewolf pretty much already did a long time ago so I'm going to say yes. I think we need to start moving away from the basic stats and turning them into something less built by degree. When you boil it down to 'realism' you can ask yourself a simple question; What is the difference between 10 Str and 11 Str when someone punches you?
I think it boils down to unrealistic minutia. There is no real basis for stat comparison in the real world. With most MMORPGs having stats hit well into the triple digits at max level, those numbers become less and less connected to your role play. Ask almost anyone with a level 80 raider in WoW and they will likely tell you that they use their weapons and gear because they are x points better in stat y than some other item. Most items won't bestow special powers or abilities and your training as a character becomes bland. There's got to be some other options for change right?
My solution for a new standard runs along the same lines as Mass Effect and Whitewolf. You pick a number of aspects in which to grow your character such as physical, hardiness, perception and intellect. Then put ability trees in each of these befitting it's category. You want to be a fighter you'll want to buy things from the physical list. Now how you use these abilities and powers depends solely on how you roleplay them. The "stats" in the system can all just be put behind the screen where no one needs to see them. This normalizes everything while at the same time adding some amazing customizing options to every character. No "classes" required.
The one statless RPG that comes to mind is Bioshock. You can hack anything use any plasmid and use everygun. Unfortunately it made the game rather piss easy and made a good chunk of plasmids useless. Why would I bother to use a plasmid that makes turrets attack enemies when I can jump right up to it, hack it, and be my eternal minion?
Also without stats you have to pretty much have the character at their full or near full potential, how else can you numerically quantify for a game whether or not a character can do X thing or use Y weapon?
Also without stats you have to pretty much have the character at their full or near full potential, how else can you numerically quantify for a game whether or not a character can do X thing or use Y weapon?
Considering there are numbers 'under the hood' of games, and "ditching the stats" could only practically speaking be disguising them, it does seem an odd ask, doesn't it?AmrasCalmacil said:
I do agree that it does sound inelegant to refer to a swarthy character as CHR 23, but when it comes to an online rpg at least, this is how you can communicate strengths and weaknesses succinctly.
You can take away levels from an RPG and it would still be an RPG... but you can't really take away the stats=/
It is possible to remove stats completely in pen and paper RPGs though. You basically let the GM make an estimate what the PC can and can't do. Works very well if the players like an extremly "rules light" game and if they trust the GM.
It is possible to remove stats completely in pen and paper RPGs though. You basically let the GM make an estimate what the PC can and can't do. Works very well if the players like an extremly "rules light" game and if they trust the GM.