RPGs Should Ditch the Stats

Rednog

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The one statless RPG that comes to mind is Bioshock. You can hack anything use any plasmid and use everygun. Unfortunately it made the game rather piss easy and made a good chunk of plasmids useless. Why would I bother to use a plasmid that makes turrets attack enemies when I can jump right up to it, hack it, and be my eternal minion?
Also without stats you have to pretty much have the character at their full or near full potential, how else can you numerically quantify for a game whether or not a character can do X thing or use Y weapon?
 

mooncalf

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AmrasCalmacil said:
This title scared me, I like having stats, you know where you stand with them. What other systems are there though, other than a bunch of numbers?
Considering there are numbers 'under the hood' of games, and "ditching the stats" could only practically speaking be disguising them, it does seem an odd ask, doesn't it?

I do agree that it does sound inelegant to refer to a swarthy character as CHR 23, but when it comes to an online rpg at least, this is how you can communicate strengths and weaknesses succinctly.
 

Ashtovo

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you realize that the stats are why a majority of the players play these games right?
 

Bobbovski

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You can take away levels from an RPG and it would still be an RPG... but you can't really take away the stats=/

It is possible to remove stats completely in pen and paper RPGs though. You basically let the GM make an estimate what the PC can and can't do. Works very well if the players like an extremly "rules light" game and if they trust the GM.
 

soulasylum85

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i think stats are part of the appeal of an rpg which is why u see more and more non rpg games adding rpg elements such as dead rising, call of duty, etc.
 

Canadamus Prime

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The thing is the stats system works and why shouldn't we keep using a system that works? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" right? So unless this Tidal guy has a better idea, I think he should shut up.
 

More Fun To Compute

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Humans are no more like likely to "evolve" beyond a need or interest in mathematics and statistical modelling than they are for a need for art and drama. Nice try at prevaricating and muddying the water though, arts graduates.
 

Ancientgamer

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Amnestic said:
vivaldiscool said:
Fat Man Spoon said:
Iron Mal said:
My first question would be upon getting rid of number based statistics, what would they replace them with?
Letters? Pies?

RPG's need the statistics, otherwise it isn't what it claims to be.
Statistics=\=role-playing-game. Stats as seen are a relic from when, you know, we didn't have computers.


I've been advocating something like this for a long time, but people are determined that games without states are "casual".
FPS' [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-person_shooter] are a relic of the past from when we didn't have consoles like we do today. Should we also discard the entire premise of the FPS genre simply because it's old (36 years old according to the article there.)

Just because they're old doesn't mean they're to be discarded. Whether being without stats means you're "casual" or not is irrelevant. The sole argument here seems to be that stats=old=bad, and I can't agree with that.
I'm kinda curious how the fuck you think that FPS analogy is even relevant, but I'll bite.

Visible stats aren't just old, they're outdated. We had them because there was no other way to track character progression than to do it manually. Stats were just a means to an end.

Don't think I don't see the appeal of stats. I love table top RPing, I love video game RPGs, but stats aren't the heart and soul of the genre, and we shouldn't be so fixated on them that we gawk, dumbfoundedly when someone suggests there's a better way for RPing.

And your analogy fails, because FPS is a genre, while stats are a mechanic.


I'd also have to disagree quite strongly with people who say RPGs without manually controlled stats are simple FPS', that's a great disservice to both genres.
 

Rodger

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Stats aren't holding RPG's back. They're just another way to play it, and they happen to be the way the majority prefer to play it. While its true some tabletop RPG's have moved away from them, consider that those ones are niche games at best. About the only ones you'll find in most bookstores are D&D and other offshoots by the same company. And in D&D groups, you'll find most players consider what class/race they want to play, consider stats and feats, and THEN think about who the character is outside of said stats. Only the more roleplaying-centric players put character before stats, but they're the minority. Stats and character building is the main draw of the RPG genre, especially as a video game genre.

So, with that said, no. The article is utter bollocks. And this is coming from someone who DOES engage in actual roleplaying. Most people don't want to play pretend. They want to slay goblins, get the best equipment, spells, skills, etc. Thats what they're in it for, and thats why they play RPG's. The actual "roleplaying" part of the genre's namesake was left behind even when the first RPG's started appearing on PC's and consoles. No one who got into Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Wizardry, or Ultima ever considered their character's backstories or personalities at all and I can assure you at least 90% of RPG players aren't going to play a game that tries to ditch them entirely. Heck, even those dialogue options popping up in recent western RPG's don't come remotely close to actual roleplaying. Players choose the options that keep the alignment they want so they can get the ending they want, and there's nothing more to it. They don't have a personality or background for their character, they're only concerned with beating the game or completing whatever objective is next on their agenda.

Now, that said, I don't think the concept of a graphical roleplaying environment (lets call them GRE's just to keep them separate from the RPG genre since, despite GRE's being the only one of the two actually focused on roleplaying, they're entirely separate concepts and deserve separate genres) should be at all abandoned. However, its not likely to be economically feasible. A game created solely to act out your characters is only going to appeal to the people who are already roleplaying on forums, chatlines, and MUD's/MUCK's. Its also going to have a very, very high budget in order to be able to create the kind of environment that roleplayers would want. You would have to have every object in the game able to be interacted with in every way the player might realistically be able to interact with it.

On top of that, much of the roleplaying that tends to go on isn't something you're likely to want in such a game. Most roleplaying done tends to be of the adult variety (heck, the most popular MUCK I know of is solely devoted to exploring sexual fantasies without restraint) so that needs to be dealt with in some way. And using Second Life as an example of a roleplaying environment is a bad example anyway, since there's no actual roleplaying going on there (doesn't stop 'that' from happening, but chances are most of it isn't being roleplayed) Second Life exists largely as an internet meeting place/virtual chat room.

You also have to consider playing to one's tastes. You can have all the medieval fantasy GRE's you want, but they're all going to die off because they likely won't attract enough interest to sustain just one, let alone any competition. The only such games to gain any sort of popularity would be the ones based on existing franchises, like Star Wars. Wherein everyone will either be a jedi and won't be able to rp one properly, or be a sith and think its an excuse to be as much of a jerk as they want to the other players. Not that I'd have any personal experience with dealing with that.

Long story short: Most players, myself included, are more interested in the statistical aspect of RPG's than the narrative aspect or any actual roleplaying (which, as mentioned, no current RPG truly has outside the tabletop) and, personally, I include myself in these numbers. I'm more interested in having my mage kill an army of orcs to level up and gain access to that new spell than I am in who my mage is supposed to be outside casting spells.
 

Amnestic

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Bobbovski said:
You can take away levels from an RPG and it would still be an RPG... but you can't really take away the stats=/

It is possible to remove stats completely in pen and paper RPGs though. You basically let the GM make an estimate what the PC can and can't do. Works very well if the players like an extremly "rules light" game and if they trust the GM.
If you have a good DM that can work extremely well. Playing flexibly is fun.

However you can't do that with video games because the DM is a computer and every player is different. While it may work for P+P RPGs, such a thing is near impossible to perform with current levels of technology in video games.

What is the difference between 10 Str and 11 Str when someone punches you?
Depends on which edition rules you're using.

Ask almost anyone with a level 80 raider in WoW and they will likely tell you that they use their weapons and gear because they are x points better in stat y than some other item.
That's because you're at max level. The only thing that will increase is your gear. Your glyphs, talents, levels and base stats are all locked into place. Gear is the only way to progress your character. Something integral with RPGs.

My solution for a new standard runs along the same lines as Mass Effect and Whitewolf. You pick a number of aspects in which to grow your character such as physical, hardiness, perception and intellect. Then put ability trees in each of these befitting it's category. You want to be a fighter you'll want to buy things from the physical list. Now how you use these abilities and powers depends solely on how you roleplay them. The "stats" in the system can all just be put behind the screen where no one needs to see them. This normalizes everything while at the same time adding some amazing customizing options to every character. No "classes" required.
Except Mass Effect did have classes.

I don't really understand your point here.
 

Bigeyez

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Wandrecanada said:
I think he might have meant something like this when he talked about removing stats.

Mass Effect doesn't have the traditional stats system but with the weapon/biotic/tech skill system you still have very different characters. Even two of the same class can be specilized. I don't get why people are flaming the guy just because he thinks the system is outdated and could improve. While I think RPG's will always have to have some form of stat/skill improvement theres no reason why the system couldn't expand or change beyond what we have now. Flaming someone for trying to suggest we can make something better makes no sense.
 

Amnestic

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vivaldiscool said:
Amnestic said:
vivaldiscool said:
Fat Man Spoon said:
Iron Mal said:
My first question would be upon getting rid of number based statistics, what would they replace them with?
Letters? Pies?

RPG's need the statistics, otherwise it isn't what it claims to be.
Statistics=\=role-playing-game. Stats as seen are a relic from when, you know, we didn't have computers.


I've been advocating something like this for a long time, but people are determined that games without states are "casual".
FPS' [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-person_shooter] are a relic of the past from when we didn't have consoles like we do today. Should we also discard the entire premise of the FPS genre simply because it's old (36 years old according to the article there.)

Just because they're old doesn't mean they're to be discarded. Whether being without stats means you're "casual" or not is irrelevant. The sole argument here seems to be that stats=old=bad, and I can't agree with that.
I'm kinda curious how the fuck you think that FPS analogy is even relevant, but I'll bite.

Visible stats aren't just old, they're outdated. We had them because there was no other way to track character progression than to do it manually. Stats were just a means to an end.

Don't think I don't see the appeal of stats. I love table top RPing, I love video game RPGs, but stats aren't the heart and soul of the genre, and we shouldn't be so fixated on them that we gawk, dumbfoundedly when someone suggests there's a better way for RPing.

And your analogy fails, because FPS is a genre, while stats are a mechanic.


I'd also have to disagree quite strongly with people who say RPGs without manually controlled stats are simple FPS', that's a great disservice to both genres.
Are they outdated though? People still enjoy them. People still use them. Fallout 3 used stats and that's been an absolute top-notch hit on the gaming scene. Exactly how do you define 'outdated'? Bioshock didn't have any visible stats and as far as an RPG goes it was subpar. Good FPS, good game in fact, but it was a bad RPG. I barely felt like I was progressing my character at all.

I have yet to see a 'hidden stats' game that really made me feel like I was customising my character who had both strengths and weaknesses. Hidden stats games seem to be set on making you an unstoppable super soldier of destruction which I don't really want.
 

unwesen

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Every once in a while, someone makes this exact suggestion. And at least on some level, I agree completely.

The thing is, crunching stats is what people do even for games that don't show them. There seems to be some attraction in that - god knows what, because many of the people attracted to crunching stats will profess they know nothing about mathematics, and aren't interested in anything to do with numbers.

I'm thinking that seeing a part of game mechanics expressed in numbers suggests a level of control over the game the player would otherwise not feel. It may be that level of control that's attractive, more than anything else.
 

Kilo24

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It seems like going from generic stats to a traits-based system did wonders for The Sims 3. Though it's not an RPG, an analogous change would be focusing on an advantages/disadvantages system, ala GURPS or World Tree (though they still have stats too.) Or making a more full-fledged background system (like Arcanum), traits system (like Fallout 1+2), or feats system (like Dungeons and Dragons or Fallout 1-3.)

The problem that I see with stats is that they're uninformative and difficult to make meaningful without much contextualization. The best I've seen is D&D's explanation of 10-11 is average for John Q. Peasant, which is pretty crappy. Most computer games don't even have that handwaving. The benefit is that they're easy to scale abstractedly; it's easy to give a bonus to strength without having to think very much about what it'll affect and whether the player will want it.

On a somewhat related note, I've wondered about trying to whip up a RPG where your character doesn't linearly gain in power so much as gain new options. Having a level 1 soldier stab you through the brain should still be just as lethal at any level, something that abstract hit point improvements fail to model without some complicated other rules. And statistics tend to be a close cousin to that flaw: Not because of innate problems, but because they're incredibly easy to implement in that way.
 

RollForInitiative

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I'm a big fan of attribute values but that probably comes with being a fan of math in general. I like being able to clearly see the math of a game and working it accordingly.
 

high_castle

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Well...Mass Effect dropped overall stats and just featured class skills. It seemed to work just fine for them. I don't know why more RPG's don't use that same principle. It makes leveling up a lot easier because whatever you put points to directly affects one skill in a uniform way without making you do math to figure out just how much your dexterity stat will affect your aim when all you want to do is max out your archery skills. I love D&D, but its principles don't have to affect every RPG out there.
 

Kilo24

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Actually, at this point I probably should also mention Dread. It's an RPG system based around pulling from a Jenga tower instead of dice rolls. You create your character through answering a questionnaire, and the DM judges how difficult doing something would be for your character and the difficulty/number of pulls increases accordingly. It's a bit gimmicky, but still works surprisingly well.

The problem with that and any statless system is that the toll on the DM's efforts raises as well. And when that happens, the difficulty implementing a similar system in a digital game suddenly shoots up exponentially.
 

Bigeyez

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Fallout 3's S.P.E.C.I.A.L system to me was the perfect example of why a standard Agility, Endurance, Strength, etc system is outdated. The real character customization in Fallout came from the secondary skills/perks system that let you really build on whatever strengths and weaknesses you wanted your character to have. The SPECIAL system can taken completely out of the game and you really wouldn't notice it being gone.

Hell besides being forced to put points into them at the begining of the game you never have a real reason to look at them every again.

So then whats the point of even incuding them in the game in the first place? Why not just have the skill/perk system and thats it?

Mass Effect did pretty much that and is completely fine. It has none of the standard Agility/strength/whatever. It simply has a skill set that differs between classes and even between two of the same classes you can have different specilizations. I see more and more RPG's going that way and dropping the standard 5 stats all together.