RPGs Should Ditch the Stats

[Xaositect]

Yeah, and while they are at it, FPS games can drop the point and click shooting mechanic thats been around for donkeys years and find another way of dealing with shooting in games. I dont quite get where this guy has got the idea that people are desperate to find new ways of doing things when something is outdated. Arent we the species with a serious fucking problem with using fossil fuels?

If youre going to claim something is outdated and *must* be changed, my advice is make sure you have a fucking good useable replacement before you start claiming such a thing.

 

[grinklehi]

While I think that the concept for a stat-less RPG would be interesting, I know for a fact that I wouldn't play it. I LIKE stat-crunching, and hell, I leveled my top ten characters to level 9999 after a total of 50+ reincarnations each in order to perfect their stats in Disgaea 3. At a friends request I even figured out the formula to when Final/Heartless forms activate in Kingdom Hearts 2, but now I'm just bragging. For me, the fun is the formula in most RPG's, because while everyone who picks up your standard fare of the genre will eventually beat it, only types like myself ever unlock the true potential in their characters. Taking that away would ruin the fun, and it wouldn't even be feasible for the programmers due to having to develop an entirely new way to build characters.

 

[George Palmer]

Stats. I personally like them and think they should remain. What I don't like is when they get too complicated or require 3 extra pages added to your character sheet to keep track or all the modifiers, enhancements, bonuses, percentages, upgrades, downgrades, regrades, etc...

And if they HAVE to go that route then make the stats all use the same method of calculation.

There are some RPGs both paper and computer that go mental with stats and the various multiple ways to calculate them. If you want a point system then make everything points. If you want a percentage system then make everything percentages. If you want a color coding system then make everything color coded. I hate it when I have to think "well lets see, I got +19 points which is equal to 2.37% hit chance which modifies my agility by the location of gemini in aquarius which is equal to 4 green level items or .75% of a red item which makes...."

I find World of Warcraft to be very much like this.

If you must mix them make it a very basic calculation. 10 points = 1%. So adding 100 points to my agility means that my crit attack goes up 10%.

But thats just me. I'm not a math junkie. I, however, do have friends that are the direct opposite and love nothing more than to play an RPG with dice in one hand, a calculator in the other and plenty of scrap paper to keep track of it all.

 

[Amnestic]

There are some RPGs both paper and computer that go mental with stats and the various multiple ways to calculate them. If you want a point system then make everything points. If you want a percentage system then make everything percentages. If you want a color coding system then make everything color coded. I hate it when I have to think "well lets see, I got +19 points which is equal to 2.37% hit chance which modifies my agility by the location of gemini in aquarius which is equal to 4 green level items or .75% of a red item which makes...."

I find World of Warcraft to be very much like this.

If you must mix them make it a very basic calculation. 10 points = 1%. So adding 100 points to my agility means that my crit attack goes up 10%.

WoW used to be very simple like that. Instead of hit rating they had "increase chance to hit by 0.5/1/2% or whatever, but then TBC came out and they realised they'd either have to keep the hit % increases low at 1% or so to prevent level 60 gear being awesome at 70 or change it.

And thus the ratings system was born. Using Ratingbuster addon helps, but then there's Diminishing returns with complex formulas and it all gets complex after that ;<

 

[NinjaDwarf]

Actually, I sort of agree, after a fashion. Obviously with it being a game, theres always going to be numbers in the background, but I like the idea of an rpg where your skills and abilities grow more naturally, rather than assigning points to them (which always felt a little jarring to me).

Stats give the player a nice amount of flexibility though, so it depends what you like I guess.

 

[Flunk]

Even games that aren't RPGs use number-based game mechanics, they just don't open up that part of the system for the player to see. Video games are most bounded by the fact that they run on computers and computers like numbers, they like them a lot. Even things like fuzzy logic are actually just approximated using math.

 

[Jandau]

First of all, maybe my reading comprehension failed me somewhere in there, but at the start of the article he divides games into two branches - RPGs and Competitive games. That's like saying I'm dividing the entire Animal kingdom into two branches - Sharks and Birds. Again, maybe I missed some key sentence at the start of the article, but right from the start there's not much sense.

The rest of the article is pretty much non-sensical as well. We should do away with stats? Why? How are they holding the genre back? What should we replace them with? The whole thing reads like the author had some brilliant idea, but neglected to tell us about it in the three pages of text he managed to produce.

Usually the articles on Escapist are quite good. Sadly, this is an exception.

 

[pumasuit]

After reading through these posts, no one wants to break a system that isn't broken. I tend to agree with that sentiment, however I've noticed the stats are arbitrary due to the classes available. In any game, if you choose to play a tank, it can generally be assumed that your strength and constitution are going to be high, intellect and charisma low. In many ways, stats are arbitrary because we know that warriors are going to be strong, mages intelligent, rogues and hunters agile, and so forth.
First, perhaps the next step for RPG's should not be stats as dictated by players, but stats dictated by gameplay choices. Think of all characters starting out as the same blank state. Running through the shadows and being stealthy could increase dexterity, as well as being swift in battle. Swinging a two-handed axe could increase strength. Their individual effectiveness over time will stand as the "stat", forcing players to understand the ins and outs of their avatar. As the system stand now, all battle/events can be turned into a simple math equation: my strength stat > your strength stat, thus my stat = win.
From here, I suggest players not necessarily knowing the ins and outs of the game world (i.e. skill trees). This will make world exploration more than a point and click to destination activity. Awarding exploration with certain abilities not available elsewhere will aid in specialization. To sum up, a dark shadow priest thing becomes a dark shadow priest thing by travelling to demonic areas, instead of dictating "I am the almighty dark shadow priest thanks to a helpful manual that just happened to be on my person."
Idk. I feel like these would be ways that RPGers could maintain the tradition and effectiveness of stats while adding a new element of gameplay to the whole genre.

 

[Odjin]

Stats actually are in the way of RPGs. What is the definition of RPG? Yep... Roleplay Game. You play a role. Stats are in the way. Oh hell I can't be sneaky because I have only 20 points of max 100! This entire stats things ties down RPGs and prevents people from actually roleplaying. It should depend on how I play a character not trying to get stupid numbers to fit my playstyle. Because you will never manage to fit numbers to your playstyle. And this is where the real next generation of RPGs is going. Tossing the stats tying real roleplayers down to the ground out of the window and letting us actually roleplay. This means the world reacts to our deeds. And this is something any RPG I've seen so far fails at miserably.

 

[TikiShades]

Tidball's an idiot. If you don't like stats, go play a different game. Don't expect everything to change for you when there're other options that fit your criteria. Think Fallout 3 has too many stats? Then go play Generic Shooter #3734.
Actually, even FPS' have stats. Your movement speed and jump-height are Agility. The amount of damage you can take is Endurance. So if you don't like stats, your only choices are Pong and Tetris.

I can think of 3 shooter games that had stats. They are considered RPG shooters. So what are you talking about?

On topic: You CAN have an RPG without stats. Stats don't define the RPG genre. I define it as the ability to become progressively better/stronger at a fixed or exponential rate. Take away stats, and leave it to something along the lines of feats.

I've played an RP that had no stats at all, using only your wits and clever. While this would be hell of a hard concept for game designing, it performs miraculously.

Hell, Fire Emblem didn't have stats, did it? While it doesn't do much to prove itself as an RPG, I still see it as one, if only slightly. It felt too small to be called RTS.

 

[Cairo]

Yes and no. All games have stats, it's just a question of whether or not they're visible as numbers, a bar or red, veined haze at the edges of your screen.
To say that this mechanic has retarded RPGs is incorrect. RPGs are not fun or boring depending on statistics, but rather on story, character development (in personality and ability) and the various other advances already pointed out.
I am totally fine with the idea of making these numbers apocryphal on more contemporary games, but getting rid of them altogether would be a mistake. They are as much a part of the fantasy RPG setting as swords and sorcery.
Either way, those stats will be there, and whether or not they are enunciated depends on the language the developer wants to use to tell their story, how much gradation they want in the game experience. Me? I'm still going to find my scores with my d6, thank you very much.

 

[Cypher10110]

What is a rpg without stats....just a hack n slash and we don't want that.
Stats just are appropriate in rpgs unless you have like 7 pages of stats that might be to long. But you don't want to be as strong in the beginning as you are in the end because that would be boring *cough* Halo *cough* and it wouldn't feel like you've accomplished anything.

Try *cough* Halo *cough* on *cough* Legendary *cough*.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't implying that halo is too easy or a bad game, but its a good example of a "A-B-C" FPS, where there are missions, you get to the end, next mission. Your character doesn't progress, the only difference is you pick up different weapons along the way. In most cases, it isn't a case of "this is the best gun", it tends to be more situational. If you're fighting something that's far away you might want the sniper rifle instead of the shotgun.

The core difference a RPG has is in the statistics, if you were to change the guns in halo so that you could upgrade them, and they had a limited number of upgrades, with bonuses and penalties, then it would fall into the same idea of statistics - choices that effect how you play.

That's the reason I love RPGs, even cross-genre ones like SystemShock2, Deus Ex, and Dark Messiah. You look at a stat/item/ability, and weigh it against OPTIONS. Choice is the flavour of life, and for me it's the key element that I love in my games. Nothing beats meaningful cuztomization imho.

Edit: Come to think about it class choice is an important step in customisation, how do you differenciate classes? Statistics.

Weather they are hidden or visible, they are there. TF2 has stats, like health, run speed, and each weapon also has rate of fire, ammo, damage, reload, accuracy. I'm all for making it more obvious, and maybe taking it away from the good old fashioned character sheet design of D&D. But choice is the key to an RPG (or else it's an action-adventure where your role is chosen for you).

I tend to prefer games where I can choose the bits I like and discard the bits I don't, like the morrowind/oblivion class creators I can choose the skills I care about. D&D itself it also perfect for this, I can choose whatever race/class combination I want to try, and make my own story for it, and later on multi-class into other classes to create whatever synergy I want with skills, feats, spells, abilities, and equipment.

 

[The Austin]

Without stats how would characters grow and develop? If you take away stats than every single person would clamor for the only thing to make them any stronger: Armor, all the characers would try to get the best armor they possibly can, thus creating an army of unindividual and boring characters. (Oblivions main flaw, no matter who you are, you always went for deadric)

 

[MasterChowmein]

the stats is why people play rpg's

 

[S.H.A.R.P.]

The only RPG I play is Neverwinter Nights (2), in which stats are quite important. It, among class, level and skills of course, decide which feats you can take for your character. You can vary a lot and decide what is more important. A high dexterity which allows you to gain perfect two weapon fighting, with the drawback of less constitution/health points for example.

With the stat system, you have tons of ways to develop a character and distinguish yourself, choosing a certain path and specialising yourself with it. Even though I'm not a hardcore player, I do appreciate those mechanics a lot.

And I do wonder, if ever you remove the stats then what are you going to replace them with? Won't you just dumb the game down? Is that really what we want?

 

[Beatrix]

I don't agree with that guy's opinion, but he is right that stats are on the forefront too much. I'd find hidden stats very annoying, but arbitrary restrictions are even worse (like equipment that requires you to be a certain level before you can use it, or the ridiculous License system from FFXII).

I think they should keep stats, but just make them influence things rather than impose restrictions.

 

[NeutralDrow]

You know, I was actually pretty gratified when this guy showed an actual understanding of the process of evolution. Then I got to here:

Regardless of the taxonomy of these outliers, allow me to make a modest proposal: Maybe now, in 2009, it would pay to eradicate a few of the more vestigial characteristics of the earliest roleplaying games, the ones that just aren't helping us move RPGs onward and upward. Maybe it's time for marching progress to leave the roleplaying game's appendix in the dust of history.

The analogy falls apart by this point. In evolution, vestigial pieces remain in an organization because there's no selective pressure to get rid of them, and no random mutation without them has popped up and spread through a population. In other words, the actual idea of evolution is incompatible with the suggested "time for marching progress," because the fact that they've lasted this long means there's nothing overtly harmful about them.

That's aside from the fact that I disagree with the premise entirely. He seems to view stats as a limitation to one's imagination, and therefore non-essential. I have to say, I find this to bullcrap overly simplistic. The reason they've lasted so long is because they're still a meaningful way of interacting with the game. There's such a thing as too freeform of a game, and concrete ideas provide enough focus for more than one person to use as a common platform.

And that's aside from the fact that some, like myself, find statistics a useful imagination aid...

 

[Dentedgod]

RPGs without stats are not RPGS!!!!! Any RPGs that ditch stats are RPGs that I'm simply not going to play. Half the point of RPGs is the progression and advancement, the other half is the story. If I want to play a game without stats, I'll go play an FPS or Action game.

 

[UsefulPlayer 1]

I think stats are way too vital.

How else are you going to measure the character's progress through out the game?

If they were to throw it out, it would be much harder as developers would have to make small changes as the character grows and become stronger. This is were stats tell you how they changed but not you just have to feel it, instead of the stats simply telling you.