Rumor: Sony Fighting PS3 Piracy With Install Keys

[Slavik_91]

I'm sure this will work as well as it works for PC games.

 

[Jaded Scribe]

Yes, they were. But that doesn't change a damn thing. Math still works out to show that used games are a serious loss for game developers.

Let's say LittleBigPlanet had a total of 1,000,000 people who owned the game. By total, I mean bought used or new.

Now, say that the average cost between the brand new price tag and the Game of the Year edition was $45. If every one of those million people bought it new, the developer would have made $45,000,000.

Now, let's say that 1/4 of their players bought it used, so there were only 750,000 copies bought new. that means they only made $33,750,000 off the game.

That is a loss of $11,250,000.

Just because a game was originally bought new does not mean that when it is resold that the company is not losing money.

That is some neat marketing BS, but the real world works a bit differently.
Alot of people buy games because they can get atleast half the money back once they had their fun, and then the guy buying it second hand pitches in to the full price that they would individually not be willing to pay.
The same goes for games as it does for cars, people only buy new cars because they know it can be resold in about 5 years for half the price so they can again pick up a new car, and almost noone keeps their brand new car until it is truly dead, games here have the upside that most people actually do keep them.
You own what you buy, saying you can't resell your game is like saying you can't resell your car, ludicrous.

I understand publishers have an issue with GameStop(and others) that made the second hand market into their own little industry, but then the same goes for second hand car dealers, yet we never heard how that is "killing the industry"... but I'm sure they will pick that cheesy line up from their fellow marketing men someday.

As I mentioned to someone else today, I am not saying that buying used is wrong. I, personally, prefer to buy new to support the developers. The person I was responding to was asking if used games were really such a big deal to the bottomline of a game company, and I was just pointing out that yes, it is.

 

[Bullfrog1983]

Of course! Serial keys! There's no way that can possibly fail! *facepalm*

 

[Jaded Scribe]

Personally, I don't really care. I keep my games. I tend to buy new when as much as I can so the money goes to the devs and not the store.

I have to wonder, if buying games new is the only way the developer's get the money, does that mean the games are donated to the store, and then the store gives them a some of the money they made off said product?


I always assumed they sold the games to the store, and then it was the store trying to make money off the games they just spent money on.

Yes, the stores pay for a certain amount of games. But, look at it this way, say GameStop and Target each have a demand for 1000 copies of a given game at their stores.

Target, since it doesn't offer used games, would have to in turn purchase all 1000 copies they sell from the developer.

GameStop offers used games. So say they are able to meet half the demand with used copies. That means they are only paying for 500 games from the developer.

And, the developers know that in the future, their games will not sell as well at GameStop, and GameStop will consistently order fewer copies.

And yes, it is the only way (outside of DLC and monthly subscription costs) that devs make money, and games cost millions of dollars to make. They have to make it up somehow.

All used copies were already bought new.

Yes, they were. But that doesn't change a damn thing. Math still works out to show that used games are a serious loss for game developers.

Let's say LittleBigPlanet had a total of 1,000,000 people who owned the game. By total, I mean bought used or new.

Now, say that the average cost between the brand new price tag and the Game of the Year edition was $45. If every one of those million people bought it new, the developer would have made $45,000,000.

Now, let's say that 1/4 of their players bought it used, so there were only 750,000 copies bought new. that means they only made $33,750,000 off the game.

That is a loss of $11,250,000.

Just because a game was originally bought new does not mean that when it is resold that the company is not losing money.

Now, let's extend your example. Let's say that 25% wouldn't have bought it for full price so they now don't have the game at all. Not only have they still only made 33,750,000 off of new sales, but they have now lost any sales from DLC and day one sales for the sequel from that 25% who could have bought it used and invested money in DLC and the sequel.

I'm not saying buying used is bad, or wrong, or anything like that.

But, I know that not all people who buy used would not have bought it new if the used was not an option.

The person I was replying to was asking if developers got most of their money from sales, so was buying used really a big deal for them.

I'm pointing out that yes, it is.

I was under the impression that the developers are already paid (by the publisher) before the game even ships. It's the publishers that get the money from sales. There may be bonuses for developers if there are high sales but that is not the same as salary.

If used was not an option, I wonder how many people who bought new, wouldn't buy new because they could be stuck with a $60 lemon.

They get some money up front from the publisher, but usually with points on the back end. So unless the game turns a profit, they get no money from the game except for what they already put into it, so they have no money to put towards growing their studio.

And, if a game doesn't turn the expected profit (and used games don't generate profit), a publisher is not likely to request any sequels, or possibly will also pass on other games by the same studio.

And again, I do not disagree with buying used. I buy used myself when new pricetags are just too steep. I prefer to wait for a $30 Game of the Year edition (which also makes it likely that I won't be disappointed, as I will have seen and heard enough about the game to help my decision in buying it) so that I'm supporting the companies that create the games, instead of just the retailers that have nothing to do with the creation of the games I love.

Since I'm working on getting into the gaming industry as a career, I have a definite interest in making these companies profitable enough to higher one more designer

 

[Easton Dark]

its just not worth owning a ps3 in the first place there arn't a significant amount of good games for it. its over priced and the developers dont have the money to really use it to its full potential. its sad really, and dont you ever get a that wierd feeling of akwardness any time someone says they own a ps3? lol

Not true, Not true, Not true, Not true, Not true, and no, in that order.

Although that's not the point of the thread.


OT: I thought consoles were all about pop-in and play.

 

[theultimateend]

Wow, people act like Piracy is a uniquely PC problem.

Turns out as soon as it's possible on PS3 they do it to such a bad extent in such a short time, all those people who threw around the "PC Elitist" slurs will be eating their words.

Have sales dropped at all?

Cause if sales stay the same and piracy rises then piracy doesn'te ffect sales.

As it stands I don't pirate but I'm officially cutting off all purchases of PS3 games if this happens. I'm not getting bogged down with bullshit because of a fairy tale problem.

 

[Treblaine]

Wow, people act like Piracy is a uniquely PC problem.

Turns out as soon as it's possible on PS3 they do it to such a bad extent in such a short time, all those people who threw around the "PC Elitist" slurs will be eating their words.

Have sales dropped at all?

Cause if sales stay the same and piracy rises then piracy doesn't effect sales.

As it stands I don't pirate but I'm officially cutting off all purchases of PS3 games if this happens. I'm not getting bogged down with bullshit because of a fairy tale problem.

Well if they are crazy enough to do this I will stay interested.

Because IF this does destroy/cripple the PS3 pre-owned market, how will this affect the price of games? What kind of flexibility will this offer publishers and retail stores? PC has been interesting with the collapse of the pre-owned market, particularly in special sales and special offers.

 

[theultimateend]

Wow, people act like Piracy is a uniquely PC problem.

Turns out as soon as it's possible on PS3 they do it to such a bad extent in such a short time, all those people who threw around the "PC Elitist" slurs will be eating their words.

Have sales dropped at all?

Cause if sales stay the same and piracy rises then piracy doesn't effect sales.

As it stands I don't pirate but I'm officially cutting off all purchases of PS3 games if this happens. I'm not getting bogged down with bullshit because of a fairy tale problem.

Well if they are crazy enough to do this I will stay interested.

Because IF this does destroy/cripple the PS3 pre-owned market, how will this affect the price of games? What kind of flexibility will this offer publishers and retail stores? PC has been interesting with the collapse of the pre-owned market, particularly in special sales and special offers.

Who knows. I just get tired of more and more BS getting added onto a "problem" that appears to be largely emotional.

Basically it's not a moral thing for me, if I don't think a game is worth my money it's also not worth my time. That said I understand others feel that some things are worth just their time.

But now potentially when I buy a game I'm going to need to prove I purchased it. I realize PC's have been doing this for ages but I also don't buy very many PC games .

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

Anyone here remember Sony's rootkit virus they smuggled on to their products a couple years back? It was an anti piracy measure too, that turned out well for them. After they bought off the court trying the case that is.

This will only end very badly for them.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Any chances of me being interested in the PS3 has now sunk to 0%.

Give me one good reason to put up with this shit as a legitimate paying customer.
Just one.

 

[Paragon Fury]

No more rents or used?
"Wave goodbye to the PS3 kids."

The PS# is already dead.

Do you think people are really going to want keep playing on a game where every single game is likely to wind up like JTAG'd MW2?

 

[thepyrethatburns]

Dammit, Sony. This is why so many people take the side of the pirates or are willing to believe the EFF when they make blatently false scare-tactic claims.

Look, unless a game is a Must Buy (Example: Dissidia was so surprisingly good that I've preordered Duodecim), I rent or play a demo before I buy. You are already anti-demo for just about everything on PSN. (I was considering Dead Nation and Flower. Dead Nation doesn't have a demo. Flower does. Guess which one I bought.) Now, you're going to cut off the rental market in the hopes that I'll just buy your games blindly.

Seriously, it's like you don't even want to be in the console business anymore.

 

[DaHero]

This is the BEST IDEA EVAR! There is no possible way that this could be cracked!

Yeah anyone else detecting a hint of sarcasm in my alter-ego?

Seriously though, I'm waiting for Microsoft to try this, then Nintendo...all they need is the Piracy excuse and zip, out goes second hand games sales. Ultimately (and I am not elitist when I say this, I have reasons) everything will funnel back to where it started: The PC. PCs have third party digital distribution that also has sales constantly (Steam, Gamers Gate, GoGamer, Heck even Amazon is doing it now) which might...just maybe...mean better games? I don't think so, but if it's all being made for one singular device...

That or everyone turns to OnLive, in which case we're all doubly screwed.

 

[joshuaayt]

Hey, brilliant! I never expected such a savvy move.

These guys aren't fucking around- you see, first they taunt pirates with a ridiculous, paper thin defense that HAS PROVEN ITSELF TO BE USELESS on the PC, a platform known and even often avoided by publishers due to piracy issues, and then, just as the pirates are getting complacent- bam, phase 2!

I can't wait to see what their actual defense will be. Maybe, like, inbuilt lasers, or something.

 

[zmanu]

So the approval system is specific to each game? That's a hell of a system to implement.

Yep. Of course, developers would still be able to use static libraries provided by Sony, basically copy/pasting the bulk of the code. Just like there are off-the-shelf DRM solutions for PCs available. There is the obvious tradeoff: the more copy/pasted code you use for your security, the easier it is to crack; crackers just need to look for those well known bits of code.

Anyway, it still means every game made to date will be incredibly easy to pirate

Yes. That train is long gone, however. Nothing they can do would protect a disk pressed 2009 made for firmwares of 2009.

and even the ones released WITH this system will probably be cracked just like PC games

Very true. But the work still has to be done per game and the crack has to be distributed per game. The goal here is not to stop hardcore pirates; they will always find a way. It's the casuals they would be after with this hypothetical system. Right now, the state is that with the right CFW and an application you can go to your local store, rent any PS3 game for a day, copy it to your HD and play it as long as you like. If, on top of that, you also need to run a patch on the data on the HD, which needs to be either done by getting the patch code to run on the PS3 directly or moving the data to your PC, doing the work there, then moving everything back... I guess those are steps that drive some people away. Torrents can be pre-patched, but they are HUGE.

The big risk with this move, apart from the obvious customer alienation, is that it would effectively breed the game cracker culture on the PS3. And while you're at cracking a game, why not add cheats as well? Or unlock all the items you'd usually have to purchase? Sony may think they can sue them into non-existence, but yeah, that's another lesson to be learned from the PC side. Those guys are pretty good at keeping their cover.

 

[Waaghpowa]

For all those saying it will affect sales, I disagree. No matter how bad something gets there's always going to be some fanboys who'll defend it. Please refer to Zero Punctuation: Fable 3 where yahtzee commented on xbox fanboys. Also when the Xbox 360's were breaking down left and right multiple times a year, people still went out and bought a new one every time.

I personally stopped dealing with consoles in general once my xbox broke the second time in a year.

 

[Danpascooch]

So the approval system is specific to each game? That's a hell of a system to implement.

Yep. Of course, developers would still be able to use static libraries provided by Sony, basically copy/pasting the bulk of the code. Just like there are off-the-shelf DRM solutions for PCs available. There is the obvious tradeoff: the more copy/pasted code you use for your security, the easier it is to crack; crackers just need to look for those well known bits of code.

Anyway, it still means every game made to date will be incredibly easy to pirate

Yes. That train is long gone, however. Nothing they can do would protect a disk pressed 2009 made for firmwares of 2009.

and even the ones released WITH this system will probably be cracked just like PC games

Very true. But the work still has to be done per game and the crack has to be distributed per game. The goal here is not to stop hardcore pirates; they will always find a way. It's the casuals they would be after with this hypothetical system. Right now, the state is that with the right CFW and an application you can go to your local store, rent any PS3 game for a day, copy it to your HD and play it as long as you like. If, on top of that, you also need to run a patch on the data on the HD, which needs to be either done by getting the patch code to run on the PS3 directly or moving the data to your PC, doing the work there, then moving everything back... I guess those are steps that drive some people away. Torrents can be pre-patched, but they are HUGE.

The big risk with this move, apart from the obvious customer alienation, is that it would effectively breed the game cracker culture on the PS3. And while you're at cracking a game, why not add cheats as well? Or unlock all the items you'd usually have to purchase? Sony may think they can sue them into non-existence, but yeah, that's another lesson to be learned from the PC side. Those guys are pretty good at keeping their cover.

I think it's not worth it, considering it's going to get so many people so pissed at Sony that they will pirate when they might not have otherwise, plus, every game made before this system (which is the majority assuming the PS3 is past the halfway mark of its lifetime) will be still completely unprotected.

I think people will be getting the custom firmware in order to easily pirate all games to date, and once they have that, and the majority of the work is already done why wouldn't they seek out cracked copies of new releases? I'm sure they won't be hard to find.