Farther than stars said:
Well, you made some interesting points there. But what I don't get is why you seem to hate this game with such a passion.
I hate grind, not Runescape.
I get your point that grinding is a bad thing; I agree, but I also get the point Sovvolf is making that if you don't like it, you don't have to play it.
You're right. I don't have to play it.
But I don't want grind creeping into more games. It's a useless element of gaming that rewards the wrong kind of behavior for both gamers and developers alike.
However, it's also a popular mechanic for service-centric games because it takes an experience and pads it out, which translates directly into more revenue.
F2P games sell this in the form of "convenience", oppressing the players with grind, but offering a way out for a price.
Subscription games give you everything, but keep you playing for longer so that you pay more weekly/monthly subscriptions.
Fortunately, for the time being most games are still in the realm of products, not services.
But if the industry changes its payment model to shift more games to services (some are already starting to transition to that: Diablo 3 will only be online, and features strong incentives for players to grind, though fortunately it's still in transition so there's no subscription fees or F2P bullshit...yet.)
After all, speaking from my own perspective there are a lot of things that I don't like and I have my opinions about those, but that doesn't mean that I have a problem with people playing certain games that I personally don't enjoy.
Do I think Runscape's a bad game? Yes, I would say that the grinding is dispicable. But that doesn't mean that I think it shouldn't have the right to exist, if not as a vent for the developers' creative minds, then for all the people who do enjoy it.
But that's the thing: Developers could express themselves just the same without adding busywork, so why add it at all? It adds nothing!
A sense of progression? I think examples will illustrate my point better.
Super Meat Boy, didn't feel the need to introduce grind into its gameplay in order to provide you with a sense of progression.
Even among RPGs, it isn't necessary.
Nethack doesn't require you to grind if you plan your approach even just a little.
Suikoden 2 used a function that rapidly catches your team up to the enemy group's level (after 5-8 encounters, which you're easily going to get just running through as fast as you can).
And you couldn't "overlevel" very easily either. Grinding would get you MAYBE 4 levels above a region's enemies, but no more. This means that boss fights were actually challenging, and the outcome of each fight depended on your party composition, and how you developed their skills and inventory.
The challenge came from planning and execution. Not just having bigger numbers than the other guy. In a simulation, your abilities to plan and execute are the only accurate representations of your actual gaming "strength"; anyone can grind.
Personally: I find a victory that comes solely from the result of grind is hollow and anti-climatic.
But if you're still insistent that progress on its own is justification, I'll just show you this:
http://progressquest.com/
That is "progress" as a gameplay concept. Form your own opinion.
Sovvolf said:
Actually buying a level 60 character is kind of like some arsehole walking into a Martial Arts dojo with a paid for Black Belt. Real life is a grind specially training, I put hours of effort into getting mine (actually only a yellow belt in the martial arts I do that include belts but that's beside the point) then some guy, the same stedhead mentioned above comes into the gym with his freshly purchased one from a local sports store, would I be jealous? course not, I'd be outraged though. Course the fellow would got the same as these bots and be quickly kicked out of the gym but still... I hope you get my point.
Why would you be outraged or jealous? You have the skills, he doesn't. If you went up against him, you're going to whoop his ass.
Pardon my presumption, but you practice to acquire the skills, not the belt. The belt is just a symbol, not skill itself.
The same cannot be said of the dude who walks in with his new level 60 character and twinked gear. For nearly every MMO I've played, the numbers matter far more than the skills unless the numbers are evenly matched; and that's my point.
When you make time the primary metric of power, you don't end up with even numbers (remember: time spent playing varies between players), and so the skill matters less and less.
The "grind" you talk about in real life (training and conditioning) has genuine benefits besides being able to kick ass. What benefit do you get from grinding in an MMO?
Nothing. It doesn't improve your mind.
"How about in-game skills?"
Fair enough, I'll give you that practice makes perfect.
But if you are bored with the grind, then chances are IT'S NOT A CHALLENGE, YOU ALREADY HAVE THE NECESSARY SKILL. It's just that the game refuses to acknowledge this until you've wasted an arbitrarily large amount of time doing it over and over again.
The problem lies in thus: in a grind-scenario, the PLAYER'S SKILL doesn't increase at the same rate as the CHARACTER'S SKILL (that is, their numbers).
I never had to seriously think about what skills/spells I was going to use when I tried a Priest on the WoW Trial, or my Knight on Ragnarok Online etc unless it was an exceptional circumstance (usually bosses and mini-bosses, or a raid/instance with a neat gimmick, which comprises a TINY FRACTION of the time I spend playing).
Instead, it's spent spending a short time figuring out my approach, and then following that same bloody approach for EVERY encounter...well past the point I had mastered it.
But the further I progressed in every game noted above, I noticed something: my approach and execution mattered less and less as time went on, to the point where it was only the numbers on my character sheet that mattered.
Either I had the numbers to win/survive, or I didn't. Nothing else mattered unless it was a very even matchup, which very rarely occurred.
If I may expand upon your analogy: Grind would be like if you have the skills and conditioning of a Black Belt, but even when you pass the test, you aren't given your Black Belt unless you do it 5 more times.
Why? "Just because".
That's hardly fair, isn't it?
Grind is taking an accomplishment you've already achieved, and stretches it out for no other reason than to waste time. You don't benefit from the added practice, and it's rather boring.
I'm not sure how one can have fun while they're bored, but if you can figure it out, by all means tell me.