Samuel L. Jackson Thinks Force Awakens Actors Need "Lightsaber Fight School"

[Zydrate]

One was actually trained, and two of them had your run-of-the-mill combat training. I wasn't expecting any flips and spinning from them, and he shouldn't have either.

 

[hermes]

Of course it was less flashy: two of them have almost never used one before. It would have been extra ridiculous if Finn and Rey started juggling around the moment they turned on the sabers.

But this is hardly news worthy. Jackson didn't attack the movies, he just commented that the fighting style looked amateurish, which is entirely true and justified in the movie.

 

[Zipa]

While there's no denying that the fight choreography from the [prequels] was impressive, it also frequently looked like something practiced. The fights were too dance-like, often lasted way too long and just didn't feel like the people involved were actually trying to kill each other. The fights in The Force Awakens were perhaps less dynamic but were, in my opinion, more visceral and closer in tone to the ones featured in the original trilogy.

This is pretty much exactly what I said after I saw the movie. The Force Awakens lightsaber fights were my favorite so far. More visceral and fun to watch than the original trilogy, but not over-choreographed and lacking in dramatic intensity like the in the prequel trilogy. And it's a small thing, but the idea that one could inflict more minor wounds--just like in a real-life swordfight--was a great touch, whereas fights in Episode I-VI it was always clash-clash-clash for a looooong time followed by dismemberment or death.

Thats why I liked the fight between Dooku and Obi Wan in Episode 2, it was over quickly and Dooku ended it by inflicting relatively minor glancing wounds on Kenobi.

There's a line in the novelisation of Ep II that lays out that most Jedi are trained to fight people with blasters, but that Dooku is specifically trained to fight as a swordsman which is why he beats Kenobi.

Yeah after the fact Kenobi realizes the weaknesses of his lightsaber form and leans and masters form III, a purely defensive form between ep 2 and 3.

 

[IOwnTheSpire]

Exactly. The original films didn't have lightsabre fights, they had important plot and character moments in which the participants happened to be holding laser swords. The prequels had flashy ballet in which people we didn't know or care about failed to do or say anything much at all. How many words did the jedi exchange with Darth Maul in the entire Phantom Menace? Without watching it again to check, I'm pretty sure it's zero, and if not it's damn close. No-one killed or is anyone else's father, no-one's being called to turn to or reject temptation, no-one even knows who the bad guy is at all. Attack of the Clones was just as bad, the people involved in fights at least aren't mutes this time, but it's again characters we haven't been introduced to in any meaningful way fighting without any motivation other than "we're good guys and he isn't". Revenge was the only one that even attempted to do anything with the fights other than look flashy, and it's no coincidence that it's considered by far the best of the prequels. The fight between Vader and Obi-wan in Star Wars was objectively terrible, there was virtually no choreography at all, and what little there was was ruined by having the opponents be an old Shakespearean actor and a guy in suit who could barely move and see even less. But it's remembered more fondly than any fight from the prequels because it wasn't the swordplay and dance moves that were the important part.

Why does every lightsaber fight have to have emotion, plot, character, or subtext behind it? Why can't we see two or more people fight just because it's cool? What was the emotional weight of the fistfight that Indiana Jones had with the big bald German beneath the rotating plane in Raiders of the Lost Ark? Nothing, it was just fun and cool, and that's okay.

 

[Scow2]

Of course.. I bet that if Finn had had one of those cool energy-baton things in his fight with Ren, he'd have kicked that trumped-up sith-wannabe's ass.

However - lightsabers DID recieve some sort of serious nerf in these movies, given how hard it was for them to cut through bodies.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Oh he's just saying something to be funny and everybody starts dissecting it word for word...

 

[Reincarnatedwolfgod]

Well 2 out the 3 characters were not trained to use a lightsaber. The one who had any training at all was not fully trained. He had bunch factors notably hindering his fight ability and thus could not take take full advantage of his limited training.

If they looked very skilled a lightsaber users then it would feel out of place in this movie. Although in end the movie the force users are about to get training. I am expecting to see notable improvement in skill for any lightsaber duels in the next movie.

 

[RedRockRun]

I love Sam Jackson and all, but damn sometimes he says some stupid things. I heard him bring up midi-chlorians and how only Jedi can "turn on" lightsabers. smh

 

[Damian Porter]

The lightsaber fights in the prequels were garbage. They just looked way too choreographed and more like a dance routine than an actual fight.

 

[chocolate pickles]

Samuel Jackson doesn't know shit about ass.

TFA has the only good lightsaber scenes. The original fights were slowing and boring, and the prequels' too flashy. Finn/Rey vs Ren felt like an actual fight.

 

[Glongpre]

God between this and people bitching about Kylo not being as cool as Vader (LITERALLY THE ENTIRE FUCKING POINT OF HIS CHARACTER) I feel like 50% of those who went to see Force Awakens didn't watch the movie correctly.

How on earth do you fuck that up haha.

Dude, go onto imdb boards for a random movie and you will see people complain about plot points that are explained during the movie. It boggles my mind every time. People, eh?

Also, Mr. Windu is wrong. The fights were really good.
What really disappointed me was that the dudes from The Raid were lame. Could have been cool bounty hunters or something. Did they help with the fight choreography though?

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

I will have to completely disagree. I know some people prefer the overly choreographed dance routines but it puts me to sleep.

 

[Joccaren]

Yeah, I largely agree with Jackson, but its understandable that they're novices considering none of them have held a lightsaber before. Well, except Ren but he's not well trained.

But in terms of choreography... As they reach master stage, the choreography should increase. Its all well and good to have medieval broadsword fights... If I was watching Braveheart. I'm watching Star Wars, a show where Space Wizards duel each other. This movie, and the OT, really didn't sell me all that much on space wizard sword school. It was more like they used these things as a novelty, rather than because they were awesome, and that anyone could pick it up and be as effective with it as a weapon, with or without the force.

Say what you will about the prequels, but it at least didn't have that feeling. They felt like they could be an effective weapon - rapidly moving and being able to block numerous blaster shots, long distance throws to cut through enemies, instantly lethal and a great utility at close range, which the force was used to get into. And, of course, the force was ever present in the duels. Whether it was with lightning, pushes, jumps and flips - it felt like Space Wizards fighting each other.
Yeah, the choreography needs improvement. All the animated versions of lightsaber fights end up better than the prequels, as they're able to actually hit each other and do those insane moves without needing to cheese it, but that style of fighting is more visually impressive and entertaining than the, to quote a user from another thread, "Cripple vs old man" style of the OT.

That said, yeah, lightsaber duels need to be a bit less common, and a bit more personal - which they kind of have to be, now that there's only a handful of Jedi/Sith around and they all somewhat know each other. Merge the best of both styles, but the duels do need to get faster and more force-active as they get better at dueling.

 

[Basement Cat]

As a trained fencer I can't look at swordfights in movies as being realistic: They just aren't. Instead I just sit back and enjoy the spectacle without grumbling about telegraphed moves, etc.

This is why I can still enjoy the Darth Maul sword fight in TPM to this day.

That said I agree that the fights in TFA were more grounded and visceral. I agree that Rey, Ren, and Finn actually looked like they were trying to kill each other rather than perform a ballet. Folks have been pointing out that "Of course the fights look amateurish because they're being fought by actual amateurs whereas the fights in the prequels all involved 'trained professionals'".

So lets take a look a the quality of swordsmanship demonstrated by the "trained professionals".

Now lets look at a quick lesson on how to face such fighting styles in real life.

​

I get Mr. Jackson's point but I can't say that I agree. The choreographed "duels" in the prequels look exactly like what they are: choreographed "duels". The fights in TFA looked more like people scrapping. Different, yes, but lacking the silly/flashy stuff.

 

[lordmardok]

I actually don't agree with Jackson at all, for once. If anyone has ever watched a Kurosawa film like Seven Samurai, the fights are very very similar and, bear in mind, that those very films are what inspired lightsaber combat. They are supposed to be slow, steady, and measured. I really disliked how the prequels portrayed lightsaber duels as flashy and overwrought with a dozen swings of the blade per second. It was like what a twelve-year old would think a good sword fight is. Anyone with an ounce of experience in actual swordsmanship would tell you that's not even close to realistic.

That said, I understand that quoting 'realism' in a movie about future-past-galactic-space-wizards-with-laser-swords is kind of fruitless in some cases. Still, I liked the realism of the fights. It contrasts nicely with the bombastic setpieces. Only in star wars can you find a somber pair of warriors, each of distinct and ancient orders of war and schools of combat, circling each other and waiting for the perfect moment to strike, all while they're aboard a giant space ship with starfighters shooting each other to hell outside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pU6B2zEFeg&list=PLGKf-FbNKYAWjQ2N10Cjg2BaxWYoMmt-o

 

[Valkrex]

Agreed 100%. Say what you will about the prequels, but at least the light-saber fights in them were AMAZING to watch. The fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin was amazing to watch, and while I can understand not wanting to have a fight where Fin and Rey were on that skill level, this fight was just awful, slow, and boring to watch.

 

[Loonyyy]

While there's no denying that the fight choreography from the [prequels] was impressive, it also frequently looked like something practiced. The fights were too dance-like, often lasted way too long and just didn't feel like the people involved were actually trying to kill each other. The fights in The Force Awakens were perhaps less dynamic but were, in my opinion, more visceral and closer in tone to the ones featured in the original trilogy.

This is pretty much exactly what I said after I saw the movie. The Force Awakens lightsaber fights were my favorite so far. More visceral and fun to watch than the original trilogy, but not over-choreographed and lacking in dramatic intensity like the in the prequel trilogy. And it's a small thing, but the idea that one could inflict more minor wounds--just like in a real-life swordfight--was a great touch, whereas fights in Episode I-VI it was always clash-clash-clash for a looooong time followed by dismemberment or death.

Thats why I liked the fight between Dooku and Obi Wan in Episode 2, it was over quickly and Dooku ended it by inflicting relatively minor glancing wounds on Kenobi.

There's a line in the novelisation of Ep II that lays out that most Jedi are trained to fight people with blasters, but that Dooku is specifically trained to fight as a swordsman which is why he beats Kenobi.

That makes a lot of sense.

By the time of the prequels, the Sith were gone for so long that the Jedi focused their training on countering blaster fire, closing distances, and attacking to destroy/kill without resistance once distance was closed. I mean, if there's no Sith around, the only other lightsaber wielders are Jedi and they're not going to fight each other to the death.

On the other hand, Sidious/Palpatine, Maul, and Tyranous/Dooku knew that they would have to face and defeat Jedi to succeed, so they trained accordingly.

Interesting.

Yeah, in the EU they try to make this whole martial arts thing out of it, with different styles and forms of Lightsaber combat. Dooku is a master of "Form II", which is basically fencing, which is why the modified grip is meant to be useful. While modern Jedi are usually trained in Form III IIRC, and Form III is about spinning and sweeping blade movements for deflecting blasterfire.

It gets really dumb when they get into Form VII/Vaapad, which is supposedly what Mace Windu specialises in, which is meant to be ultra aggressive, chaotic and involve flirting with the dark side, which probably sounded better in someone's head.

 

[Loonyyy]

Well, I guess we have a different idea of effort - in my book, everyone who goes though that many flips and parries and what not is putting quite a bit of effort in order to defeat their opponent.

Yeah, and it still does. What I was pointing out, is that even if we go with "REALISM" line, that argument doesn't work.

That's the problem though. They go through all those flips and parries, indicating that the flips and parries are no effort for them. The fights are marathon. Maybe we don't want realism, but mimicking a real fight often can add an edge to things, and people just don't stay that energetic for that long, and if you can stay that mobile throughout, then why does anyone's defense ever get overwhelmed? Even if the blade doesn't have weight, the swing does(And we're talking weight of a swing, which is the force of the swing, not the mass anyway, which is actually what the blade lacks), and if you block enough hand to hand strikes, you'll feel the struggle to keep their hands away. The saber tangles actually look like two people trying to throw down.

I like the acrobatic stuff, don't get me wrong, I actually enjoyed that aspect of the prequels, and I liked how it progressed into videogames, but there's a lot to be said for the different fighting style. It looks like a struggle, a knock down drag-out fight. Ren looks like he's trying to murder someone. I had a lot of bad things to say about Ren, but his presence in the fights was not one of them. The fights looked vicious.

 

[RealRT]

What duels? I didnt see any duels in the prequels.

Consult your local ophtalmologist about that.

My point was that all of the battles are so flashy and over choreographed that they look more like dancing than fighting. Everyone moves like they know exactly what their opponent will do at any moment. Probably because they do.

When you have people whose quick reactions WERE explained by seeing twenty seconds into the future, that's not an unfair explanation.

Well, I guess we have a different idea of effort - in my book, everyone who goes though that many flips and parries and what not is putting quite a bit of effort in order to defeat their opponent.

Yeah, and it still does. What I was pointing out, is that even if we go with "REALISM" line, that argument doesn't work.

That's the problem though. They go through all those flips and parries, indicating that the flips and parries are no effort for them. The fights are marathon. Maybe we don't want realism, but mimicking a real fight often can add an edge to things, and people just don't stay that energetic for that long, and if you can stay that mobile throughout, then why does anyone's defense ever get overwhelmed? Even if the blade doesn't have weight, the swing does(And we're talking weight of a swing, which is the force of the swing, not the mass anyway, which is actually what the blade lacks), and if you block enough hand to hand strikes, you'll feel the struggle to keep their hands away. The saber tangles actually look like two people trying to throw down.

I like the acrobatic stuff, don't get me wrong, I actually enjoyed that aspect of the prequels, and I liked how it progressed into videogames, but there's a lot to be said for the different fighting style. It looks like a struggle, a knock down drag-out fight. Ren looks like he's trying to murder someone. I had a lot of bad things to say about Ren, but his presence in the fights was not one of them. The fights looked vicious.

Yeah, people typically don't stay that energetic for that long, but then again, they also don't jump three meters up or turn on super speed to run past some droidekas, etc.

Ren looks like he's going to murder someone whenever he takes off his mask, that's not that big of an achievement.

 

[ServebotFrank]

I actually really liked the fights and I hoped they stay that way. One complaint I had about the prequels was that the Jedi seemed to be almost invincible unless fighting other force users which sapped a lot of the tension from the fights.

I think it would be better if one Jedi was basically the strength of an entire platoon, rather than an entire fucking army. Like they should be really difficult to take down, sure, but not impossible. It would also be cool if we started seeing squads, in the next film, of non-force sensitive Storm Troopers trained specifically to fight force users. It would help a lot more in increasing the tension during fights if we ran into people who could counter the force with clever tactics.