Sanity Meters

Nieroshai

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GrinningManiac said:
JaymesFogarty said:
GrinningManiac said:
I didn't know about Eternal Darkness. That's a pretty neat idea, if only as cheesy as Mr."YOU SEEM TO LIKE MARIO SUNSHINE" in Metal Gear over there
Oi, it's called, "Metal Gear Solid." And that was a stroke of genius mind you!
Oi, it's called "Metal Gear Solid Snake." And that was a stroke of MADNESS mind you!
Either you're trolling(I'm guessing you are) or you don't really know. Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake was for the MSX2 console. Metal Gear Solid was for the Playstation, and featured Psycho Mantis. Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes is a Gamecube remake of the Playstation version. And watch where you blaspheme, ALL Kojima productions are a stroke of genius!
 

Stabby Joe

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The idea of a sanity meter hasn't always seemed fitting for a video game since it's apllying a point A to B bar on a complex state of mind.

Lovecraft themes and style, even a more direct adaptation in videos games however is always welcome because a game that has a neutral moral ground could be an excellent basis for a story since the original stories seemed to lack, or at least de-emphasize the human understanding of moral and ethics... instead things just "were".
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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I'm going to bring up two issues:

#1: One problem with horror is that humans are adaptable, nothing remains scary forever. If something doesn't kill us, it makes us stronger in a literal sense. No matter how horrible a situation most people are going to adapt to it after a while and about the fifith time a monster shows up, people are going to be thinking more in terms of "what are we going to do about that thing" more than an "argggh! a monster" panic response.

This applies to games as well, it's ridiculous to assume that a character is going to continue to be scared beyond reason by the same things again and again, and not adapt somewhat to their situation and the realities of survival.

This is also one of the reasons why typically you see horror in stand alone novels, or movies, as opposed to like 300 episode ongoing series, and why when someone does tend to draw it out it turns more into fantasy than horror because realistically the same variables are not going to generate absolute terror for the same people.

I think that most video games tend to get it right for the most part, with the protaganist becoming better adapted and more formidible and in control of the situation the longer he survives.

#2: When it comes to mechanics like "horror factor" or "sanity loss" in games, it's a throw back to paper and pencil RPGs. It's important to note that the role-playing is about taking control of a character with capabilities far differant from your own. Any kind of a game includes a degree of detachment from the protaganists, and when your playing a character far differant from yourself the detachment is even further. Nothing gets around the fact that we, the gamer, are sitting around a table playing a horror game with our nerd friends, or just made the desician to plop a horror title into our game machine.

A resistance to fear, and grip on sanity (in the short term) represet things that are going to apply the characters in the game which might have quite a differant threshold than the player. Someone who is a Marine, or career Navy (to use examples of people I've played with) might be quite able to deal with a lot of the situations in a horror game, like oh say finding a dead body, or losing a comrade. However if the character they are playing is a timid co-ed who acts as professor's research assistance with no combat training, or years of military experience the same logic might not apply. The mechanics represent the character's capabilities to deal with such things rather than the players. In the other direction a timid co-ed research assistant playing a Marine who has done multiple tours in Iraq, or a Naval veteran who has dealt with pirates on the African coast might respond to things in a very "meh" fashion despite how the player might react.

It's important to note that in the scope of computer games, the same basic logic applies. The character your controlling is not literally you, and is not detached from what is going on. For the person playing the game, the experience is no worse than a thrill ride or haunted house at the worst. On the other hand the protaganist in the actual game does not have that perspective. What's more the character your playing, especially in an adventure-style game, might be an even bigger nerd conceptually than the nerd liable to be playing the game.

Simply put a video game is never going to really scare a person playing it, except maybe some jump out shock, or being a bit creepy in a "WTF was the person programming this thinking" fashion, especially seeing as you knew ahead of time this was going to be horror. The nature of the medium, and choosing to expose oneself to horror invalidates that. Thus the need for RPG type mechanics taken right from tabletop play to give the experience integrity.

Perhaps with greater strides towards VR we will see a situation where games will become immersive enough to do better, by being able to literally involve the people playing as themselves. However the desician being made to experience a horror game is by it's nature ALWAYS going to dampen the experience.

Short of some kind of experiment, or hacker psycho who breaks into people's VR systems, traps them there, and runs horror game programs, I doubt we will ever see a genuine horror experience in gaming because there is ALWAYS going to be the seperation of the person knowing it's still a game, even then. As such, things like sanity meters and the like are probably going to remain a staple to anyone who wants to include such things.



#3: The original Cthulhu mythos stories by HP Lovecraft himself have not aged all that well, however some of the stories involving the mythos that he edited have fared a little better. He was so inspirational that as things stand now, people have simply done the same stuff so much better (even using his ideas) where his writing seems quaint in comparison.

I also do not think people are cynical enough to think of themselves as some kind of mould on a rock drifing through space to be honest, but given that space aliens have become common fodder for collective fantasies, ideas like that just aren't as shocking as they once were.

To put things into perspective the nerds of the 1920s didn't spend a lot of time drooling over the idea of lesbian sex with races like the Asari in "Mass Effect 2". The attitude was entirely differant.

Also "The Great Race Of Yith" was not malevolent or meant to be scary in of themselves. The point was that they were alien enough to not mind messing with the occasional lower life form (well from their perspective) in the pursuit of knowlege, but it's also noteworthy that at the same time that same group of beings arguably step up to the plate for humanity by providing crucial knowlege or pieces of a puzzle. After all they were the ones who fought the original war with Cthulhu and the gods he worshipped, and they who apparently placed things like the Elder Seals, before themselves being run off.

I think the attitude is sort of like how a guy might really like animals like alligators or something like that. He occasionally kills one to skin it and make stuff out of it, but he also does things like help propagate them, see to their protection, and defend their enviroment. It's not a perfect analogy, but Yithian intervention could be seen sort of like a guy killing an animal in your herd for his own benefit, but also chasing away your predators and arguably doing more good for you than bad, even if the end he doesn't view you as anything close to an equal.

Of course part of the problem with Lovecraft's work is that when he wrote that stuff he kind of felt humanity had peaked technologically. Right now we have weapons and things that go beyond what the Yithians ever had (albiet we do not have mental time travel). Writers from Chaosium used to make jokes like "what would happen if you nuked Cthulhu? He'd reform 15 minutes later... radioactive and mad" when by the actual concept Cthulhu himself wasn't all that (he isn't even actually a god, but a high priest and sorceror) a couple of nukes could probably solve the biggest problems in those stories. But the horror of the time was that by HP's logic nothing like a nuke could ever exist, he couldn't conceive of such a weapon, and he thought humanity would never progress much beyond the level of the weapons we had in his day. It's interesting when you consider that today we could easily massacre the most horrendously overpowering things that the minds 90 or so years ago could conceive to scare people. Says a lot about how far people can come when we become stronger than doomsday no-win scenarios we create for ourselves.
 

JPH330

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Sir John the Net Knight said:
Jedi Sasquatch said:
Sir John the Net Knight said:
Yahtzee took a shot at "Alice"... Oh good lord, is nothing sacred to this guy?

[small](Short answer: No...)[/small]
Long answer: That joke is not funny, which is why I chose not to make it.
I figured it'd be fitting, since this is a comment in Yahtzee's column thing, but whatever, okay then.
 

crimsonshrouds

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I love eternal darkness and its use of sanity effects. I think if it didn't have a meter and just occurred as you progressed it might have been better.

Eternal Darkness one of the greatest games of the previous generation of games. I have not played silent hill 2 because of a lack of a ps2.
 

Nieroshai

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JaymesFogarty said:
GrinningManiac said:
JaymesFogarty said:
GrinningManiac said:
I didn't know about Eternal Darkness. That's a pretty neat idea, if only as cheesy as Mr."YOU SEEM TO LIKE MARIO SUNSHINE" in Metal Gear over there
Oi, it's called, "Metal Gear Solid." And that was a stroke of genius mind you!
Oi, it's called "Metal Gear Solid Snake." And that was a stroke of MADNESS mind you!
No, there has never been a canon MG game with," Snake in the title," apart from Snake Eater, (MGS3), and MG:2. Unless you're referring to the remake for the Gamecube, entitled, "The Twin Snakes."
And how was it not brilliant? A fourth wall breaking reference that is actually relevant to you. Not to mention the vibration feature of the controller. (And the later addition in MGS3, that if you waited long enough between a save, you could kill a boos that was old.) The MG series has always been very interesting to me, as it utilises very unique gameplay mechanics.
[facepalm] This is why I keep petitioning Konami to get Kojima to remake the MSX2 titles "Metal Gear" and "Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake" for either the PSN or as full current-gen games. They were amazing, but Super Nintendo-esque graphics on a console no one has anymore doesn't translate to a modern gaming experience. Unless one lives in a basement. You want to play them though? Grab a copy of MGS 3: Subsistence, and play the bonus games on the second disc.
 

Firia

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snowman6251 said:
I like the Eternal Darkness approach the most of the bunch but I think sanity meters should be invisible. Don't tell us how sane we are, that way when crazy shit happens I'll be like "Holy shit what the fuck" rather than "oh my sanity is low".
I feel this way too. The mechanic is fine, but I don't want a readout telling me that there's this mechanic. I wonder, playing devils advocate, if we'd be claiming the same thing if the roles were reversed; we've been underexposed to sanity meters, and people then may clamor for a day of readable sanity levels. Hmm.
 

Samurai Goomba

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I think the sanity effects in the Call of Cthulhu game worked pretty well. Like somebody else said, it was to preserve this Lovecraftian ideal of not getting a good look at the monsters for too long. I mean, a lot of his stories were all about a really long, slow build for a short final payoff. Often the big reveal is the last sentence or so of the short stories.

Also, screw anyone who says The Whisperer in Darkness hasn't aged well. I'll grant that Lovecraft's paper-thin racism and the overall age of his work has somewhat dulled the horror to be found therein, but some of his writing is really timeless and shows a quality I think is still to be matched in many ways.
 

Fanitullen

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My biggest problem with the whole sanity thing is that very few of Lovecraft's characters actually went insane. It was the guy from "the Rats in the Walls" and a few others, but most of them were simply unsettled. If you want a sanity meter in your game, that's one thing, but don't pretend it has anything to do with Lovecraft.

I also have to agree with the whole "break of immersion" thing as well. Scare me, don't point at a meter and TELL me I'm scared.
 
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Traigus said:
For decent Lovecraftian reading in the modern era, I recommend "The Laundry" series by Charles Stross. Though they are also pretty funny as well.
Seconded. And, btw Yahtzee
imagining the tentacles of Nyarlathotep draped lovingly around your shoulders,
Nyarlathotep usually doesn't appear in a "horrid" form. Most of the time he's just a black man with a horn.

Although, that's even more unsettling.
 

JaymesFogarty

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Nieroshai said:
JaymesFogarty said:
GrinningManiac said:
JaymesFogarty said:
GrinningManiac said:
I didn't know about Eternal Darkness. That's a pretty neat idea, if only as cheesy as Mr."YOU SEEM TO LIKE MARIO SUNSHINE" in Metal Gear over there
Oi, it's called, "Metal Gear Solid." And that was a stroke of genius mind you!
Oi, it's called "Metal Gear Solid Snake." And that was a stroke of MADNESS mind you!
No, there has never been a canon MG game with," Snake in the title," apart from Snake Eater, (MGS3), and MG:2. Unless you're referring to the remake for the Gamecube, entitled, "The Twin Snakes."
And how was it not brilliant? A fourth wall breaking reference that is actually relevant to you. Not to mention the vibration feature of the controller. (And the later addition in MGS3, that if you waited long enough between a save, you could kill a boos that was old.) The MG series has always been very interesting to me, as it utilises very unique gameplay mechanics.
[facepalm] This is why I keep petitioning Konami to get Kojima to remake the MSX2 titles "Metal Gear" and "Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake" for either the PSN or as full current-gen games. They were amazing, but Super Nintendo-esque graphics on a console no one has anymore doesn't translate to a modern gaming experience. Unless one lives in a basement. You want to play them though? Grab a copy of MGS 3: Subsistence, and play the bonus games on the second disc.
I played the originals using Subsistance. I hated them; I'm ashamed to say it, but it's the truth. I'd love to see the first two made using MGS4's engine.
 

Orekoya

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snowman6251 said:
I like the Eternal Darkness approach the most of the bunch but I think sanity meters should be invisible. Don't tell us how sane we are, that way when crazy shit happens I'll be like "Holy shit what the fuck" rather than "oh my sanity is low".

Also I think if your sanity gets too low the game should start conjuring things like fake enemies that disappear when you attack them or something like that. Get you to be unsure as to whether or not you want to use your ammo on the monster as it might be fake.
I approve and endorse this fleeting thought that will never be implemented.
 

Jaqen Hghar

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Vinticore said:
I have been thinking about maybe reading through some lovecraft someday, is the any book in perticular which would be the best to start with, or?
The story I like the most (which might be adapted to the silver Screen by Mr. Del Toro is "At the Mountains of Madness". But you have a lot of shorter stories which are also good, most of which I do not remember the names of. I have a lot of his stories in a collection book which is of course called "Necronomicon". I don't think it is insanely expensive, so I'd just get that.

What I like about Lovecraft is that most of his stories are at the very least unsettling. There is always something scary about them, often something you can't really put your finger on. And the fact that he only relies on scaring you psychologically with the settings and the "otherworldy" impossibilites makes it work more often than not. The idea of having the remains of an ancient advanced race buried deep beneath the oceans, or the desert, or the ice-covered Antarctica... it is a brilliant and unsettling idea. Especially when said race might not be gone... And for all we know, there might be something unexplainable deep beneath the oceans. It is not knowing which makes his stories scary, and I still find them scary.

This is hard to translate to games, which is why there are so few genuinely scary games. Note that I do not count jump-scares when talking about scary games. Jump-scares are as far from horror as you can come.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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Feb 4, 2009
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If we can accept that the biggest loss of sanity will occur when a person is subjected to something beyond the understood parameters of the natural laws of the universe, or under considerable emotional distress, then I don't mind sanity meters to represent this in games only if the players are likely to feel the same thing.

Problem is then that the loss of sanity would become a scripted event. Whilst a loss of sanity can only be truly applied *if* a person isn't expecting it to happen.

Sanity meters as a stand alone gauge (a replacement for your health and stamina meters) might work well in a game.

For example ... a game where you can only take so much damage, but every magical and exotic major sensation you find will take a random amount of sanity from you. Not only this but the more sanity you have the more able you are to detect enemy monsters from further away or the more able you are to effectively communicate with others.

I think a sanity meter in some games would make in interesting addition to a game, but only if the sanity meter represents something that will affect how you perceive the game as well as a player.

The less sane your character is, the narrower your vision gets ... the less threatening some monsters and sounds become ... the more attractive sources of evil power become in which you have to actively fight off the temptation to claim the power as your own (yes ... the 'One Ring' style of temptation), etc etc.

As that being said ... in an action-adventure game, sanity could make an awesome substitute for HP + Stamina. But it has to represent something tangible in how you perceive the world and how your character is both influenced and influencing in the environment he/she occupies.
 

DTWolfwood

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So long as the protagonist cant properly defend himself, you will have scary. I honestly thought Silent Hill 1 and Resident Evil 1 were the scariest games i've played.

In either case, your arsenal just always seems woefully inadequate. (Kitchen knife, no ammo, not exactly the arsenal u want to have when there are monsters/zombies around.) Not knowing what will happen after turning the corner, and have that creepy as hell music in the background really puts the fear into you. (with RE it was the silence that freaked me out, just hearing your footsteps becomes very foreboding.)

Insanity measured as quantity just becomes another meter to worry about. Immersion breaker for me. No overlay UI ftw in Horror! :D
 

carpathic

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I love the idea of eternal darkness playing tricks like deleting your game files.

That is BRILLIANT!
 

GrinningManiac

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Nieroshai said:
GrinningManiac said:
JaymesFogarty said:
GrinningManiac said:
I didn't know about Eternal Darkness. That's a pretty neat idea, if only as cheesy as Mr."YOU SEEM TO LIKE MARIO SUNSHINE" in Metal Gear over there
Oi, it's called, "Metal Gear Solid." And that was a stroke of genius mind you!
Oi, it's called "Metal Gear Solid Snake." And that was a stroke of MADNESS mind you!
Either you're trolling(I'm guessing you are) or you don't really know. Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake was for the MSX2 console. Metal Gear Solid was for the Playstation, and featured Psycho Mantis. Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes is a Gamecube remake of the Playstation version. And watch where you blaspheme, ALL Kojima productions are a stroke of genius!
OK

Firstly, not trolling, that's hurtful. I was trying to turn your comment on its head for comedic effect. Whether or not you found it funny dosen't change that I was making a joke(just cutting that hydra off at the head before it gets nasty)

Secondly, I called it "MADNESS" because it was unsettling and there were creepy laughing pictures in the background that freak the hell outta me.

Finally, just so you know where I stand, I hate the Metal Gear (or whetever the franchise on the whole is called) series for its overblown nature and conveluted-ness. It feels stodgy to play and watch, and the cutscenes are just ugh. The fourth one was particularly bad. But that's my opinion, and yours is yours, so there's nothing to argue over here.
 

josh797

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hawk533 said:
I think Eternal Darkness uses the sanity meter in the best way possible. Actually making the player think they're insane the first time they see an effect is awesome.
.
thats a great idea. i actually really enjoyed that game, but as yahtzee said, it got too easy to keeep your sanity up, so i actually kept my sanity low to see the effects. kinda sad that something so simple like a difficulty level would ruin a great mechanic.