Sanity Meters

[bojac6]

I have to disagree, at least in regards to Pen and Paper RPGs. Sanity meters are a brilliant touch for a character for one simple reason, I am not insane. Some people argue that alignment in D&D is stupid, because your character should be based on your actions, not your alignment. I think that results in the problem that all of my characters end up being Neutral Good, because I am, as a whole, a good person, who recognizes that this is a game, so I try to do good but work things to my advantage. However, if you say "this character is evil," I then have to play him as evil, and the game becomes playing an evil character and I get a new experience.

Similarly, if you say "your character is losing his sanity," it forces me to roleplay as being insane. It's not a matter of game design, it's a simple matter that if the game were starting to really get to me, mentally, I'd put it down, get a beer, have a poo, and then maybe come back to it. I always know I'm not trapped in a game.

Think of Farscape. John Crichton was going insane by his experience. It was believable, despite the fact that I could watch it and not go insane. Why? Because I wasn't living it day to day, I was just watching an hour a week. I knew they were all muppets, in the show world, they're weird alien creatures.

At some point, the needs of portraying the character outweigh what a game can realistically portray, and that's where meters come in. My character takes physical damage, and that just ends up being a tick off the health meter, why is psychological damage different?

 

[rossable]

what about Shadow Hearts? yeah, i know it's a JRPG but it did the sanity thing too... uniquely enough that i think it should be mentioned as a different model from the other titles listed.

 

[Something Amyss]

It's not "even" games like the CoC RPG. It's likely because of them. The "sanity" system in those predates most of these titles by a good margin. It works for an RPG, because it ticks down the essentials and in this case, Sanity is an essential. Especially for a gamer, since after slogging through a lair of dragons very little in Lovecraft is going to make for any pants soiling.

It's harder to represent in video games, though. I think RPG fans will accept more readily that their behaviour can be altered. It's not new. Fail a Will save. Boom, someone else's bidding. Not a good idea for video games, because it's a bad idea to take control out of the player's hands. So other methods are used. And Eternal Darkness did it well--minus the ease which is mentioned. It messed with you on a metagame level.

 

[Dragonborne88]

Actually, everybody saying the whole "Not giving a meter or anything to show you are insane". That's actually an amazing idea.

Imagine a multiplayer co-op game that implemented an invisible sanity meter, so if you went off and explored something, it would take a hit. If it got low enough, you could have sounds of combat or talking play for that one player alone, and spawn "fake" enemies to attack them. The other guys would see this one player constantly shooting at nothing, running from things that aren't there, and responding to stuff that wasn't said. I keep picturing this in Left 4 Dead, and it's AWESOME.

 

[Karloff]

Tabletop-wise, I particularly like Trail of Cthulhu's Pillars of Sanity, which has the player specify two or three core beliefs at character creation. The loss of sanity thus represents the character's crumbling belief system. If a core belief was, say, love for a spouse, then the destruction of that belief represents the realization that love is not eternal and could even be an outright lie.

I don't see how that would translate well for a computer game. It's very much a characterization issue. In most games, your background is decided more or less for you and your mission path is ultimately determined in advance. There isn't the same scope for improv or accidental discovery, nor can the player really tailor the experience for their avatar.

Oh, and @ Vinticor: Lovecraft's Shadow Over Innsmouth is pretty interesting, and you can find it on the net. I think wikipedia has links to some of the best online versions. The HP Lovecraft Historical Society is also worth a look; they shoot movie adaptations, and their fake-silent Call of Cthulhu movie is well worth seeing. I understand they're doing a fake-1930s movie soon; hopefully it'll be as good.

 

[AgentNein]

I'm sorry, let me state that my distaste with Yahtzee's comment is that "Alice" was one of the most imaginative FPS games I've ever played. 1000x better than any muddy brown military hack-shooter you can think of. And Yahtzee potshots it for a nitpick from the god damn manual? As I recall, the actual game never labels the meters. It's just flavor text from the manual. And even if you want to nitpick that, the whole game takes place in her mind anyway.* So the sanity label is far more appropriate than health, because she's not being physically shot at by card guards and boojums.

Seriously, I can't be the only person who thinks that comment was dumb.

*That's not a spoiler. The game, the manual and the Rutledge Analysis Diary(A box insert which adds some backstory.) all make that incredibly clear.

It was a throwaway joke about the fact that while he was talking about sanity meters in games, Alice had a "sanity meter" which was really a health meter and nothing more. You might not have been the only person to think it was a dumb joke, but you're probably one of the only ones who cared enough to post about it.

I'm hoping you're defensive enough to think that it was in any way a knock on the game.

As far as I go, I probably would've enjoyed Alice moreso if it didn't feel like Hot Topic: The Video Game.

 

[LadyRhian]

I like the idea of an invisible sanity meter. You don't know how much you have taken until the game starts screwing with you, and the more you take, the more the game screws around with you. Seeing stuff that isn't there, shadows on the walls turn into writing with vague threats against you, or specific threats against you as the damage (so to speak) gets worse. Or you start to see eyes looking out at you from the corners of your vision. You turn and they are gone, and when you turn back, they slowly return..

And the sound effects... the whine of a mosquito, the sound of pigs being slaughtered (mixed into the soundtrack subliminally) could have the same effect on people like the Exorcist, a film in which such a thing was apparently used.

 

[Dectilon]

Sanity loss is more interesting in the pen&paper-game though since it's in actuality a measure of how far detached you are from your humanity. As your character comes closer to what is actually true you start going insane. As a side effect, the lower your sanity the better your character is at performing magic rituals and the like. In a game where there really is no role-playing it's almost impossible to make a meaningful representation of your character going insane.

What we really need is a lovecraftian RPG. Having dialog options and similar choice paths open and close depending on your sanity sounds workable to me.

 

[reachforthesky]

Yahtzee doesn't believe in my religion! I will now refuse to ever pay heed to his opinion ever again!

 

[snowman6251]

I like the Eternal Darkness approach the most of the bunch but I think sanity meters should be invisible. Don't tell us how sane we are, that way when crazy shit happens I'll be like "Holy shit what the fuck" rather than "oh my sanity is low".

Also I think if your sanity gets too low the game should start conjuring things like fake enemies that disappear when you attack them or something like that. Get you to be unsure as to whether or not you want to use your ammo on the monster as it might be fake.

I approve and endorse this fleeting thought that will never be implemented.

I have ideas for games and concepts I'd like to see implemented in games. Alas I can't program for shit and many if not all of my ideas will never end up in a real game. It sucks

 

[TY7ERDURDEN]

but Yahtzee you charasmatic devil! Id's FPS-powerhouse-legendary-NIN-sountracked-genre-father QUAKE showed dramatic overtones of Lovecraftian writing! The ominous Quake slurping up every moment of human suffering by implanting his own beings into the human world for reasons floating widely between placing an visceral yardstick up to our capabilities/resilience and simple sadism.

Amnesia is the first game since ALONE IN THE DARK (1992 ed) that has truly made me feel helpless and therefore terrified in every stride I take. Games like DOOM 3 shock the piss out of you, but eventually you feel like Bill Paxton from aliens pouring rounds from the SAW loving the blood and pieces flying every where.... right up until they grab you through the floor boards. Dead Space was basically a gorier and less shocking 3rd person version of DOOM 3... with a terrible love interest sub-plot.

Amnesia made me feel like a shrieking little girl running away from the harry man who just offered me some sweeties.

 

[DaBozz]

Ugh Regardless of what you say about Clock Tower 3, that game scares the bloody shit out of me so much I actually feel like said school girl.

 

[FallenMessiah88]

The only game that has really frightened me in recent years is the first Condemned: Criminal Origins. I have always imagened that was how Silent Hill would be, if it was in first person.

 

[Luke Cartner]

Lets face it the only truly worthwhile insanity mechanic was playing a Malkavian in VtM:BL where what you see and hear gets twisted.
This us true to Lovecraftian ideals as well and would actually add to the fear of the setting as you (as in the books) really would begin to doubt what is real and what is not.

Lovecrafts books are what is called cumulative horror. That is the first reading, doesn't really scare you. The second is slightly creepy but ok. By the 4th or 5h reading it will give you night mares..
He does this by using the authors insanity. By not telling the reader things and in some cases outright lying (well the story teller is lying) to the reader.

Successful use of insanity as a mechanic would allow this to be translated into a game, ofcourse it would be damn hard to write but thats another story...

 

[Ih8pkmn]

Eternal Darkness was great. It had a solid enough story that you could pretty much ignore the sanity mechanic's ridiculousness. That's my opinion, at any rate.

but I agree that sanity meter should not be a bar. Instead, you should have a slight indication of your sanity level by having an enemy that just fades into smoke when hit or the game pretending you've lost control. You know, like in Eternal Darkness, but without the meter.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Its not the meter that simplifying it to much, its what happens when X or Y happens a meter ques a random event the higher the meter goes the higher the rate of events. The trouble is with that you will need meds for sanity and meds for health a one size fits all regeneration system can not handle it thus we will never really see a good exsmaple of it. I think COCCOTE went in the right direction. Only the player needs to be aware of the meter like games that use radiation. And most events will not kill you, incited you get one a few random things bad aim,bad sight,better sight,no sound,more acute sound,the ability to kill a thing with one hit and knock you to your feet, the ability to damage self as you hurt others,the ability to damage others while being hurt. Ya you might now and then put a pistol or gun to your ehad but unless its happening in a fight it wont kill you.

The trick is balancing it with meds and positive "rolls".

If the meter is the real problem then health meters need to go by same logic....I say thats madness!

 

[Ryokai]

We're all entitled to our opinions, and my reason and logic leads me to a different place then yours does, and that's fine

No, you aren't, and no, it isn't.

It is not OK to be wrong(be definition), and you don't deserve to live in a safe little bubble if someone tries to argue that you are.

Oh, okay. I see we all have to believe like you do, because you're perfect and we're all wrong forever.

Sheesh, you're as bad as those religious nutjobs trying to prevent evolution from being taught.

You're totally right. I'm not allowed to arrive at my conclusion using the facts and logic that seems correct to me, and I'm wrong for stating the statistic that most people believe in God.

What was I thinking, talking philosophy with my atheist friends in order to gain insight into their arguments and so arrive at a conclusion with more knowledge and logic?

HOW DARE I?