Schools begin banning teachers from using red ink
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Oh i don't have to read the article, I believe you! I live in Canada and have school teachers in my family. We haven't been allowed to use red pen for some time now. In fact it gets so much stupider than that. Teachers are not allowed to say anything negative either.Rin Little said:
When I was a kid I would get a report card that said something like 'doesn't play well with others' or 'is having trouble focusing on mathematics. Doodles in class'. You aren't allowed to say that anymore. Now you would say something like 'enjoys spending time alone' or 'excels in creative endeavors'. Seriously. Teachers here spend a crazy amount of time rewording their report cards and then they have to go through the principal who might make them change it more than once because a parent might get offended.
Which is where we get to the real problem. When i was a kid, if I got a bad report, I was in trouble and was forced to study more. Now if a kid gets a bad report, the parent runs into the school freaking out on the teacher about why they suck at teaching their kid. Teachers are actually afraid of parents these days. Parents often feel school is where they learn so there is no need to continue good habits at home. If the kid wont study, teachers fault. Kid fails because kid won't study? Teachers fault. They don't care to listen to reason. Parents are the reason teachers can't be honest about how a kid is doing in school. They don't want to hear anything negative about their special snowflake. Kids aren't stupid either they know this and game the system like crazy. They act like jerks at school because they know their parents will not care or even know about it.
Obviously not all kids or parents are like this, but enough are that the way schools report has changed drastically since i was a kid.
I can actual understand this. Red is like a "failure" colour, it often indicates that something is bad. Video games are a good example of this - negative responses are nearly always highlighted in red (eg. you lost 100 points for shooting the civilian that jumped out of nowhere). So when a student sees a page full of red markings, they may immediately expect something bad. If a student doesn't think that they're making good progress then it's easy for them to just give up and some people really need all the encouragement they can get so using green instead of red may actually help people. Strange but true.
I see the point about being progressive about what we do to improve the educational experience. No issues there.GrizzlerBorno said:
What I really just disagree with you on is the degree to which you don't think this is a big deal or is not overboard. As someone who had to teach a few semesters of basic composition courses in college for his degree, I know that you're obligated to teach your students right from wrong in order to give them a baseline of correct writing behaviors and styles that help them survive more complex paper assignments. Using color as a means to coddle students into being soothed about what was not done right is doing them a disservice.
Now I was never an ogre with my red pen. I wrote and pointed out flaws assertively but not aggressively. "this paragraph was decent, but could have transitioned better", "could use a bit more elaboration", and in the end, saying things like "I see how you wanted to execute your idea and your point, but your structure makes it difficult to understand. Please work on x,y, and z to help with that.
Honestly, we should be looking more towards changes in grading and providing feedback that create huge and sweeping improvement overall, rather than what I would deem cheap and kneejerk short-term benefit through vague psychological things like color.Improvements like you list are fine. Color is not.
I fail to see how writing "This was an effort that could have been much better. 67. See me after class" in green ink could possibly be significantly less demoralizing than writing it in red. Reading the words is pretty much just as bad.
It's not the red ink that's getting to people... it's the fact that they made mistakes when everywhere else they [the children] are being hailed as perfect, usually by the parents. If you want kids to be less sensitive about red ink, get them to see the mistakes they make not as failure but as a chance to learn.
I could bet you some sums of money that the kids aren't "demoralized" from the red ink; they just associate red ink with failure rather than as a chance to improve, and this is a failing with the system through which we assess/grade children rather than a problem with the red ink that is used to complete that assessment.
So I should clarify because I think I'm not too clear: the study may in fact point out a certain truth that children get a sense of failure from seeing the red marks on their page; that is just psychology. However, no one has taken this study beyond its conclusion and asked why the kids may be feeling demoralized or whatever. Probably because red is associated with failure. Changing the color to blue will start to associate the color blue with failure, and if it's a kid who sucks with teachers who use tons of different colors, then s/he'll just be riding the fail rainbow all the way to Self Pity Town and I-can't-do-this-so-pity-me Ville. Change the way stuff is graded/assessed (i.e. learn that red means: an opportunity to fix a mistake). This study is just as fail as any of Rick Santorum's arguments against gay marriage... And that's worth a lot of red ink.
I could bet you some sums of money that the kids aren't "demoralized" from the red ink; they just associate red ink with failure rather than as a chance to improve, and this is a failing with the system through which we assess/grade children rather than a problem with the red ink that is used to complete that assessment.
So I should clarify because I think I'm not too clear: the study may in fact point out a certain truth that children get a sense of failure from seeing the red marks on their page; that is just psychology. However, no one has taken this study beyond its conclusion and asked why the kids may be feeling demoralized or whatever. Probably because red is associated with failure. Changing the color to blue will start to associate the color blue with failure, and if it's a kid who sucks with teachers who use tons of different colors, then s/he'll just be riding the fail rainbow all the way to Self Pity Town and I-can't-do-this-so-pity-me Ville. Change the way stuff is graded/assessed (i.e. learn that red means: an opportunity to fix a mistake). This study is just as fail as any of Rick Santorum's arguments against gay marriage... And that's worth a lot of red ink.
After posting, I read your comment and thought my own formed a nice extension of your argument quoted here.PhoenixFlame said:
Funny. After having multiple teachers who'd correct with whatever was on hand I got the distinct impression that the colour ink barely matters.
All I ever paid attention to was the grade on top.
There was one exception, however, and that was my teacher biology. He'd grade in blue ballpoint, because it'd be harder to distinguish from your own writing, and force you to actually reread your test. I believe he claimed it'd give you a better understanding where you went wrong.
All I ever paid attention to was the grade on top.
There was one exception, however, and that was my teacher biology. He'd grade in blue ballpoint, because it'd be harder to distinguish from your own writing, and force you to actually reread your test. I believe he claimed it'd give you a better understanding where you went wrong.
Which Queensland Schools were this?thaluikhain said:
I can vouch for this my school (private school) did the exact same thing for about 2 weeks. It's a stupid idea that wont work. Although now UK and USA have tried it, you can bet the rest of OZ will try it
Yes, and seeing a big shining 100% in a circle Bright red ink like someone had to be slaughtered to celebrate your performance as opposed to 2 concentric circles makes it feel all the better!Dr. Pepper Unlimited said:
Red works, red highlights the problem, is easy to see, and gives you one colour straight off that you know not to write in yourself, because DANGER. And this spoon-feeding is BS, actually teach the kids and make them somewhat competent.
They seriously need to stop trying to "fix" education with moronic crap. The best resource any child has to improve there education is there parents and its there job to help reinforce the material being taught in class and provide a happy and healthy home environment that will allow the child to be productive in class. Most kids fail to engage the school material because they do not learn at home and do not receive the encouragement from there parents when they do well in school. School becomes boring and feels unimportant because the actions of the parents convey the message that school is uninteresting and the material you gain (knowledge) isn't important and only the grade really matters (and if you only care about the grade then you don't really learn much of anything and if you have trouble with a subject then your far more likely to give up and accept a lesser grade).
I'm a teacher, and I can see this going either way.
On the one hand, it's important to experiment and avoid stagnating the education process. Just because grading with red ink is traditional doesn't make it right. So, saying that "there's nothing wrong with grading in red because that's how it was done for years" doesn't hold water. Tradition for the sake of tradition is meaningless. If we aren't willing to try new things, we may never find the improvements that are the basis of positive progress.
On the other hand, those who argue that this is just one more step in the "watering-down" of education and focusing on the "self-esteem" of the student above other things probably have a point. The amount of defensiveness and "us vs. them" mentality that exists between parents and schools is ridiculous. I'm fortunate to work at a school where parents and teachers generally have good rapport, but the general state of the American education system is marred by a very strong mentality that teachers are "out to get students." That parents have to be ready to jump in and defend their child from being demoralized by the school system. To many parents, their child's short-term "happy good feelings" are more important than long-term educational success and character-building.
I will concede that red does say "warning! danger! watch out!" and you know what? That might not be a bad thing. It draws attention to the mistake. The best response to making a mistake is realize the mistake, humble yourself to it, and resolve to not make the same mistake again. But a lot of people don't think that way. They would rather lash out at the person who is accusing them of the mistake and tell said accuser that they are wrong, that there is no mistake.
While this ink thing is not really a big deal in and of itself, I would say that it may be a symptom of a greater problem. The want of students, parents, and people in general to feel good short-term and never have to let go of their pride rather than open their perspective to long-term growth.
On the one hand, it's important to experiment and avoid stagnating the education process. Just because grading with red ink is traditional doesn't make it right. So, saying that "there's nothing wrong with grading in red because that's how it was done for years" doesn't hold water. Tradition for the sake of tradition is meaningless. If we aren't willing to try new things, we may never find the improvements that are the basis of positive progress.
On the other hand, those who argue that this is just one more step in the "watering-down" of education and focusing on the "self-esteem" of the student above other things probably have a point. The amount of defensiveness and "us vs. them" mentality that exists between parents and schools is ridiculous. I'm fortunate to work at a school where parents and teachers generally have good rapport, but the general state of the American education system is marred by a very strong mentality that teachers are "out to get students." That parents have to be ready to jump in and defend their child from being demoralized by the school system. To many parents, their child's short-term "happy good feelings" are more important than long-term educational success and character-building.
I will concede that red does say "warning! danger! watch out!" and you know what? That might not be a bad thing. It draws attention to the mistake. The best response to making a mistake is realize the mistake, humble yourself to it, and resolve to not make the same mistake again. But a lot of people don't think that way. They would rather lash out at the person who is accusing them of the mistake and tell said accuser that they are wrong, that there is no mistake.
While this ink thing is not really a big deal in and of itself, I would say that it may be a symptom of a greater problem. The want of students, parents, and people in general to feel good short-term and never have to let go of their pride rather than open their perspective to long-term growth.
There was talk about this at my old High school. All I could say was "Grow a fucking pair." Everyone has to be nice and friendly nowadays, but sometimes you just have to come out and tell a kid, "You suck, get better."
For me, lots of red ink meant "Get your game face on and kick ass..." Whats next? Teachers have to spend 3 weeks on simple multiplication and division because people think its too hard for children over the age of 12? The education systems need a swift boot up the ass, for real. I'm in college now, and while professurs don't tell you right out that you suck, they recomend that if you are failing you should either drop, or step up your game and take it seriously. If only more high school teachers were like that.Rin Little said:
Fucking demoralizing? You know why it is... because you got the answeres wrooooonnnnnggggg. Not because it's red. It's because you didn't know the right goddamn answer.
Stuff like this is why a high school degree is not worth the paper it's printed on and the Ass degree is following. We have stuff like it in the states.
Red is my favorite color.
Clearly if I had kept seeing red in school, I would have thought I was doing well. I would have wanted to fail just so I could see the red on my paper. I would have wanted to wear red, to eat red, to taste red, to bleed red!
Clearly red ink on homework indicates societies that breed psychotic murderers. I don't want our school system breeding psychotic murderers...do you?
Boring sarcasm aside, I am glad that schools in the UK are now appealing to the education and enlightenment of bulls. It's about time our bovine brothers go to class without fear of becoming enraged and bloodthirsty at the sight of their math grades.
Clearly if I had kept seeing red in school, I would have thought I was doing well. I would have wanted to fail just so I could see the red on my paper. I would have wanted to wear red, to eat red, to taste red, to bleed red!
Clearly red ink on homework indicates societies that breed psychotic murderers. I don't want our school system breeding psychotic murderers...do you?
Boring sarcasm aside, I am glad that schools in the UK are now appealing to the education and enlightenment of bulls. It's about time our bovine brothers go to class without fear of becoming enraged and bloodthirsty at the sight of their math grades.
I KNEW my drawing would come in handy for a thread like this!
Oh Kyubey. For once you're the voice of reason.
About two weeks ago I got a math test back. 76. He marked the SHIT out of it, and I saw every single thing I got wrong. I felt bad, but fortunately I'd done all my work, so I went to tutoring so I can qualify for a retest this Friday. He tells us to mark each others homework in red ink too. I'm pretty sure he does it so we can see our mistakes. He makes us write in pencil so we can fix our mistakes.
Seriously, Education system. Grow some balls. These kids can take a bad grade. I saw I guy get a 51 and he didn't freak out. I'm not sure about his parents though...
Oh Kyubey. For once you're the voice of reason.
About two weeks ago I got a math test back. 76. He marked the SHIT out of it, and I saw every single thing I got wrong. I felt bad, but fortunately I'd done all my work, so I went to tutoring so I can qualify for a retest this Friday. He tells us to mark each others homework in red ink too. I'm pretty sure he does it so we can see our mistakes. He makes us write in pencil so we can fix our mistakes.
Seriously, Education system. Grow some balls. These kids can take a bad grade. I saw I guy get a 51 and he didn't freak out. I'm not sure about his parents though...