Serious question for feminist critique of video games

[WenisPagon]

Aha! But Kinkydink isn't the target of your campaign! You are trying to sway the neighboring neutral state of Mixdix, who is far better equipped to bargain with Kinkydink than your lonesome self.

Okay so let's say Mixdix don't care. You petition them, and they say "So what, they're not our soldiers!" what do you do then?

The campaign would be a failure overall, sure, but at least it would have caught some attention, instead of dying off inside the borders of Kinkydink.

 

[TekMoney]

Well, you said you would tell him that he should start his own publishing company IF you didn't share his views. Which implies you're only telling Anita Sarkeesian she should do it herself because you disagree with her.

Anyone you agree with is fine to just stand on the sidelines and critique. But if you're not on they're side then they can't do that. They have to do this difficult thing or they should shut up.

No and it would be clear to anyone who had read what I wrote. Trying to derail the thread is just pathetic but for your sake Ill gladly repeat myself once more: If you have the means to change what you complain about and what you complain about is agency then take that agency. If you dont have the means, then support whomever you think could get the means to get the agency. If Jim has the means, then he should start his own publishing business and show EA how it is done with all the money he would get from being a fair publisher or shut up. I dont belive he has got that kind of money though unfortunately. If he did or had the money needed to hire peple to make said publishing company for him but decided not to, he would be a hypocrite for ignoring what he preaches, an idiot for ignoring the mass of income he could earn - or both.

Anita Sarkeesian is not a programmer, she is not a story writer, she has none of the skills involved in making video games. In order to acquire these skills she'd have to go back to school and learn to do it. Then she'd have to find people to develop her game with her, and find a publisher and all the other stuff that goes into development that I don't know. That doesn't seem like a realistic expectation.

 

[EtherealBeaver]

A fine view. But the contradiction is simple: Why do you expect more of Anita and Feminist Frequency than they can reasonably supply with their current resources? To make their own BEST FEMINIST GAME would be a massive undertaking that they are currently unequipped for, being critics and not designers. Much like how in the thought experiment, you were a single individual, not an army.

Good and fair point I must admit. I think many people are caught up massively in the AAA business and completely seem to ignore the smaller scale which makes quite a decent living on much much leaner means. Anitas kickstarter funds alone should easily pay for the creation of 1 game done in a smaller fashion. Thomas Was Alone for instance is an amazing example of a game I imagine Anita should have made/designed/funded/acted like she cared about and it was about a bunch of squares. I am no AAA dev but I cant imagine that many very costly assets were put into that game other than super creative people with a vision.

I have to admit that I thought she was also raking in money with adds on those videos but checking in, I just realised she isnt - not that, that changes much though. Taking 150k$ to make a few videos is just ludicris when so many other youtubers do the same for free, sponsored by admoney instead (which is quite a bit lower than 150k/4 videos I might add). A single fresh egg does not make the basket stink less though and with a kickstarter that successful I have no doubt that a kickstarter made by her for a feminist game would do at least as well if people cared enough. Even if she doesnt currently have the funds to make it, it is clearly a gold mine if her convictions are to be belived.

 

[wulf3n]

The campaign would be a failure overall, sure, but at least it would have caught some attention, instead of dying off inside the borders of Kinkydink.

To me that discussion is where the most value can be found. What can be done when awareness isn't enough.

Because that's where we're at here. Awareness isn't enough, but all to often it's all people try to do.

 

[WenisPagon]

The campaign would be a failure overall, sure, but at least it would have caught some attention, instead of dying off inside the borders of Kinkydink.

To me that discussion is where the most value can be found. What can be done when awareness isn't enough.

Because that's where we're at here. Awareness isn't enough, but all to often it's all people try to do.

That's true, but I would argue that awareness is a vital first step, that people like Anita are good at doing.

The action comes later, by people who have other skills and means. Or even retroactively, with old games like Eternal Daughter.

 

[Dante dynamite]

Isn't she like doing something with mirrors edge 2 and DICE
but yeah I think more women should get into making video games it would help with change isn't that how most art forms included more female content with more females making that kind of art. I don't think that they should make a whole game by themselves but women could try to create that change maybe artists could do art for games writer would write for games etc. I mean I'm pretty sure most of the first female filmmakers made the entire movie solo.

 

[captainballsack]

I have been wondering the last few years why feminists like Sarkeesian complain that much about womens roles in video games. If she is so much against it and know so many other people are also against the way women are portrayed in video games, why doesnt she just become a video game designer herself and rake in the money that other developers apparantly arent interested in?

I mean, if you really want to change something, why not change it instead of just complaining about it and telling others to fix it for you? Didnt she want agency taken from men and given to women? Why doesnt she act on her options instead then? She got more money from her kickstarter than many indie devs have to spend on their games she she definatly has the means even if she cant code.

If she truly belives what she says, she must be convinced that people will buy any product with women depicted like she thinks they should be and therefore, she should be looking at millions of game sales.

Sure, anita is not "all feminists" but I cant imagine that not a single of the people who complain about the portrayal of women in video games have the means to make their own line of games where women are portrayed the way they think women should be portrayed.

EDIT: I am NOT saying that if you dont like [media] then just make your own. I am saying that if you spent the better part of your like complaining about something and you have enough money to combat it by making a game the way you think it should be (or hireing people to do it for you if you have no design experience yourself), it is hypocritical not to do so . because you cant expect to have other people make the world better for you if you have the means yourself but just dont want to do it.

If think where you're argument falls through here is when you use the word 'complain' as opposed to 'criticize.'

Sarkeesian criticizes, that has always been very clear. She makes her point intelligently, calmly and academically. If she is complaining, then by that logic, you are complaining, as opposed to criticizing, as well.

Is Yahtzee complaining? No, but he's closer to complaining than Sarkeesian is. People are entitled to be critics, and criticism is important; most of the time outsider criticism is necessary for any progression to be made, so it is actually probably better that Sarkeesian isn't a game dev, because a game dev, just like a filmmaker, has a skewed player (or viewer) experience.

As for the difference between critique and complain, it feels like a cop out to be frank. I cant say with any authority that there is or isnt a difference from a semantic point of view but from an idiomatic point if view, I strongly belive that there is not

So from a idiomatic point of view to you, there is no difference between criticism and complaining? Are you saying that complaining is okay or are you saying that criticism isn't okay? Because the two words very clearly hold polarizing connotations, even from an idiomatic point of view.

Criticism is undeniably important for anything to improve, and criticism can be made from thousands of different points of view because art is subjective. To denounce criticism, or to criticize criticism in a way that limits its scope to that only of artists willing to, or capable of, creating examples to make their point eliminates any possible criticism made by an audience. To eliminate audience criticism is just plain silly; you're making your art for your audience, not other artists.

Your argument of don't criticize through words but criticize through action also has to be applied to, logically, more than just the people you don't agree with. By denouncing Sarkeesian's lack of action, you're denouncing Ebert's, Sarris's, even Bazin's himself - you can't tell me none of those critics contributed anything positive to the film industry. Even if you were as naive to denounce criticism as such, Sarkeesian has taken action (although small) by coming up with solutions and her own game ideas.

Is this a war against feminism in the video games industry or criticism itself? Either way, I don't see any merit. If you are criticizing criticism itself, then I hope you realise just how contradictory that is.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

I have been wondering the last few years why feminists like Sarkeesian complain that much about womens roles in video games. If she is so much against it and know so many other people are also against the way with men are portrayed in video games, why doesnt she just become a video game designer herself and rake in the money that other developers apparantly arent interested in?

I mean, if you really want to change something, why not change it instead of just complaining about it and telling others to fix it for you? Didnt she want agency taken from men and given to women? Why doesnt she act on her options instead then? She got more money from her kickstarter than many indie devs have to spend on their games she she definatly has the means even if she cant code.

If she truly belives what she says, she must be convinced that people will buy any product with women depicted like she thinks they should be and therefore, she should be looking at millions of game sales.

Sure, anita is not "all feminists" but I cant imagine that not a single of the people who complain about the portrayal of women in video games have the means to make their own line of games where women are portrayed the way they think women should be portrayed.

EDIT: I am NOT saying that if you dont like [media] then just make your own. I am saying that if you spent the better part of your like complaining about something and you have enough money to combat it by making a game the way you think it should be (or hireing people to do it for you if you have no design experience yourself), it is hypocritical not to do so . because you cant expect to have other people make the world better for you if you have the means yourself but just dont want to do it.

I think people are giving you too much flake for a genuine point. She's got the support base that'd thrown money at her, why doesn't she use that to fund the 'Princess saves the world' idea she spun in her one of her episodes? Since her names attached to it, it'd get a good amount of marketing by word of mouth.

And the argument of; "she's not a gmes designer" well I hate to break it to you people but lots of people aren't anything till they give it a try. Games didnt have stories, graphics, nuance until somebody gave it a try and proved people wanted it.

Stop sitting around with your thumbs up your butts and do something. It's what I'm doing, being an indie dev artist pays absolutely nothing and won't pay out for an estimated 5 years (unless you name ends wuth Schafer or Notch), but I'm fuckin' doing it anyway. You can either live comfortably doing nothing, or hard making stomething.

 

[Caiphus]

First: What, we needed another thread about Anita Sarkeesian?

Second: The fact that a critic has not tried their hand in making the thing that they've criticised does not make their criticisms any less valid.
It might be helpful advice to ask that critic to try it out if possible to give them perspective, or to try and seek perspective, but it isn't necessary. Especially when it would require, in this circumstance, multiple years of full-time experience and/or millions of dollars.

And besides, this argument can be extended to many of our other favourite complaints.
"Don't like DRM? Make your own publishing/indie company and make your own games."
"Don't like the lack of point-and-click adventure games? Make your own."
"Don't like a video game review? Make your own"

 

[wulf3n]

That's true, but I would argue that awareness is a vital first step, that people like Anita are good at doing.

The action comes later, by people who have other skills and means. Or even retroactively, with old games like Eternal Daughter.

Don't you think the awareness step is done? Is there anyone still out there that isn't aware this is an issue? especially within the games industry?

Personally I think the awareness train left around 10 years ago, yet everyone still goes on about raising awareness.

Take a look at the "opposition" in these types of threads, no one is really saying games shouldn't have well written females, it's that they're sick of people complaining that there are no well written females.

Hence the make it yourself argument comes up, because criticizing isn't doing anything, so they say try something else.

 

[WenisPagon]

That's true, but I would argue that awareness is a vital first step, that people like Anita are good at doing.

The action comes later, by people who have other skills and means. Or even retroactively, with old games like Eternal Daughter.

Don't you think the awareness step is done? Is there anyone still out there that isn't aware this is an issue? especially within the games industry?

Personally I think the awareness train left around 10 years ago, yet everyone still goes on about raising awareness.

Take a look at the "opposition" in these types of threads, no one is really saying games shouldn't have well written females, it's that they're sick of people complaining that there are no well written females.

Hence the make it yourself argument comes up, because criticizing isn't doing anything, so they say try something else.

There are still tons of people (many in this very thread) who vehemently argue that feminism does not need to exist, let alone in the context of video games. Awareness is still necessary as long as the opposition is strong enough to influence the course of future games to stagnate and remain loaded with female characters who have the agency of a sandbag.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Because she isn't into videogames, doesn't like them and chances are would be shitty at making them. As to why nobody (as opposed to Anita particularly) makes a game with the most social-justice-compliant versions of characters in it and rakes in the money that would apparently come from an unutilised market of similar-thinking people, I propose that it is because when buying a game, the majority of people consider other things about the game to be more important than their portrayal of characters. For example the many people who bought Dragon's Crown for the gameplay. On a smaller level, there are a large amount of people who will be less likely to buy a game with excessive unironic sexualisation, myself included, because it detracts from the characters, and a subset of those people who will prefer to buy games with more equal characters (more realistic military gear for women for instance) than games without. But there are few people who will not buy a game on the basis of the virtually insignificant things Anita brings up.

 

[wulf3n]

There are still tons of people (many in this very thread) who vehemently argue that feminism does not need to exist, let alone in the context of video games.

You need to look at why these people argue feminism does not need to exist. Most I've seen argue it because it's ineffectual.

Specifically games aren't male focused because of anything misogynistic or sexist, just business.

Awareness is still necessary as long as the opposition is strong enough to influence the course of future games to stagnate and remain loaded with female characters who have the agency of a sandbag.

But what is causing those those with influence to keep making the same games? I doubt very much it's an awareness issue and more likely a "how can we target the biggest audience possible with the least amount of effort" issue.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Awareness is still necessary as long as the opposition is strong enough to influence the course of future games to stagnate and remain loaded with female characters who have the agency of a sandbag.

But what is causing those those with influence to keep making the same games? I doubt very much it's an awareness issue and more likely a "how can we target the biggest audience possible with the least amount of effort" issue.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were actually happy about that. You're rather accepting of being treated like that. Marketed to in such a manner.

 

[wulf3n]

Awareness is still necessary as long as the opposition is strong enough to influence the course of future games to stagnate and remain loaded with female characters who have the agency of a sandbag.

But what is causing those those with influence to keep making the same games? I doubt very much it's an awareness issue and more likely a "how can we target the biggest audience possible with the least amount of effort" issue.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were actually happy about that. You're rather accepting of being treated like that.

That's true, not the happy about it part, but the acceptance part.

I've gave up years ago on getting what I want from the entertainment industry.

 

[MalkavianLunatic]

Here's the thing. Most of the women I hear complaining about how females are portrayed in video games don't have access to all the money, ability to code, artistic talent, et cetera to just be able to go make their own games with protagonists that they've created. I know it's a wonderful thought to be able to just walk away and make your own toys to play with but at present, with such a sexist haze sitting over the hobby of gaming, we have to work with what we have. In this case, we have voices and videos and social media, outlets that are almost always met with hatred, threats and idiocy by the sexist morons making most gamers look bad. So we don't even really get a voice to put towards 'making our own games', at least not without being called 'fat, ugly sluts' who 'deserve to be raped/ murdered/ beaten'.

I would love for there to be more women devs out there, able to make games that feature a female protagonist who kicks more ass than she shows and whose breasts aren't constantly in danger of flopping up and giving her a concussion or shattering her nose. Hell, I'd throw what little money I have at a game like that, that's for sure! But there just doesn't seem to be enough developers out there who are women, or enough creative license to make games like that because 'zomgz, mens wouldn't want to play a game with a guuurrrrl main character!'.

Personally, I'll admit to enjoying looking at the occasional female character in her chainmail bikini/ breakaway armor/ apparently bullet-proof naked form. I'm fine with that when it's not done in overabundance, which it is. Where are all my hot, half-naked, sweet and beautiful men that need to be rescued from the Evil Dude/ Dudette of the Game? My handsome sidekick who constantly yells for help when he adorably ditzes his way into a room full of zombies? Why is it that when I play a supposedly 'realistic' woman in a game, she's either waiting on orders from a man, trying to save a baby, or trying to impress a man so he might do sex with her later and maybe... just maybe... give her a baby?

Thinking on it (and rambling about it, apparently), I don't think it's so much an issue of women getting money and going off to make our own videogames as it is an issue of inequality in the industry. That's where the changes need to be made to have any lasting changes on the videogaming landscape. We need to quit pretending that the only demographic that matters is the young, white, heterosexual male. We need to stop the harassment female employees see in the videogame workforce and take action against those who would condone degrading behavior; on that note, we need to work to make the online feature that makes our present consoles so much more than game- machines safer and less hostile-- not just to female players, but to all the players.

Well... that got away from me quick. Good question, though,OP.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Awareness is still necessary as long as the opposition is strong enough to influence the course of future games to stagnate and remain loaded with female characters who have the agency of a sandbag.

But what is causing those those with influence to keep making the same games? I doubt very much it's an awareness issue and more likely a "how can we target the biggest audience possible with the least amount of effort" issue.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were actually happy about that. You're rather accepting of being treated like that.

That's true, not the happy about it part, but the acceptance part.

I've gave up years ago on getting what I want from the entertainment industry.

I see. Well, I doubt I can convince you to stop being so accepting of it.

I'm sure not accepting of it. Then again it keeps getting rubbed in my face to my detriment so it's really hard to give in, and just take it. It's like the game industry's being a sore winner.

Starting to question the whole "sex sells" thing, too, thanks to Cracked, but I dunno. http://www.cracked.com/article_19373_5-ridiculous-sex-myths-everyone-believes_p2.html
Either way, I don't mind some eye candy, male or female. there's just too much, though.

 

[captainballsack]

I have been wondering the last few years why feminists like Sarkeesian complain that much about womens roles in video games. If she is so much against it and know so many other people are also against the way with men are portrayed in video games, why doesnt she just become a video game designer herself and rake in the money that other developers apparantly arent interested in?

I mean, if you really want to change something, why not change it instead of just complaining about it and telling others to fix it for you? Didnt she want agency taken from men and given to women? Why doesnt she act on her options instead then? She got more money from her kickstarter than many indie devs have to spend on their games she she definatly has the means even if she cant code.

If she truly belives what she says, she must be convinced that people will buy any product with women depicted like she thinks they should be and therefore, she should be looking at millions of game sales.

Sure, anita is not "all feminists" but I cant imagine that not a single of the people who complain about the portrayal of women in video games have the means to make their own line of games where women are portrayed the way they think women should be portrayed.

EDIT: I am NOT saying that if you dont like [media] then just make your own. I am saying that if you spent the better part of your like complaining about something and you have enough money to combat it by making a game the way you think it should be (or hireing people to do it for you if you have no design experience yourself), it is hypocritical not to do so . because you cant expect to have other people make the world better for you if you have the means yourself but just dont want to do it.

I think people are giving you too much flake for a genuine point. She's got the support base that'd thrown money at her, why doesn't she use that to fund the 'Princess saves the world' idea she spun in her one of her episodes? Since her names attached to it, it'd get a good amount of marketing by word of mouth.

And the argument of; "she's not a gmes designer" well I hate to break it to you people but lots of people aren't anything till they give it a try. Games didnt have stories, graphics, nuance until somebody gave it a try and proved people wanted it.

Stop sitting around with your thumbs up your butts and do something. It's what I'm doing, being an indie dev artist pays absolutely nothing and won't pay out for an estimated 5 years (unless you name ends wuth Schafer or Notch), but I'm fuckin' doing it anyway. You can either live comfortably doing nothing, or hard making stomething.

That's silly. Do you denounce everything Ebert has contributed to the film industry because he isn't a filmmaker? Audience criticism is absolutely essential to the progress of art.

You are literally criticizing criticism. Do you not see how contradictory that is?