Sexism against men

[OmniscientOstrich]

there are an equal number of shows and adverts that paint women as shallow, materialistic and physically weak.

ummmmm.... because they are?

I said that you refuted your own argument because your were opining about how men suffer discrimination and then agreed with the assertion that women are shallow materialistic and physically weak. Let's say that you only meant the one in bold, that's still advocating advertisements that perpetuate a negative stereotype and portray women as incompetant and ineffectual. 'Don't worry puny woman, the men have arrived to lift this heavy thing with ease and confidence. But if you want to feel like your actually worth something by association, why not just cling to my arm.' The point is that kind of marketing is the sort of shit that brings out the worst in both genders.

 

[The Dr0w Ranger]

Ok, I am more one to argue the logic than the numbers, though I still aim for correctness.

First: We need to not equate Rape and Sexism, Rape is a violent crime carried out by violent(for the moment at least) people, on people weaker than them. Sexism is behavioral and in many cases, unrealized and unintentional. That isn't to say there aren't idiots out there with no interest in anything but themselves, thus motivating all sorts of ignorant acts, but as someone above pointed out, sometimes its as simple as offering unnecessary help.

Second: Sexist acts happen dependent on a situation. Guys lose in divorce court/custody disputes, and in a lot of societal pressures. Girls lose in the job market, and in a different set of societal pressures. I think neither gender has it better overall, or at least that no one can prove such, because the impact of an act is relative, based on many MANY factors.

Third: I'd like to posit that equality is a poor term in this case, because racism=/=sexism.
I'd say fairness would be better.
Why you ask? Because in some situations, unlike race, which has little effect on a person's capabilities, girls have(according to wiki) roughly 52 percent the upper body strength of guys and 66 percent the lower body strength of guys. Unlike race where the capabilities are entirely equal, sex actually has an effect.

Equality implies that the same value can be expected from both sides, in many ways, it cannot, look at all of the stupid little studies, or simply read the wiki on sexual dimorphism sometime. Fair means allowing for the inborn strengths and weaknesses of a gender, rather than simply ignoring them as equality must needs do.

Fourth: Numerous does not mean statistically significant, there are girls who hate shopping for example, my girlfriend included. But that doesn't doesn't negate the fact that MOST girls do like shopping, and aiming ads towards them, or portraying such characters on tv isn't going to die out because the 1/20 girls who genuinely defy that stereotype ***** a lot. Wake up call, the other 19 are all out spending money, responding to the ads and identifying with the characters, which means the stereotype will persist.
Some stereotypes are justified, I want to use my job as an example. At my Burger King, we are trained such that if someone orders a meal by number(#1=Whopper Value Meal, etc) we are to give them a small size meal, and with Coke, if the order is drivethru. Know why? Because we strive to get the food ready and to them by the end of 2.5 minutes,and despite the possibility that we will be wrong, asking the necessary questions takes too long. The 1/15 people who wanted a medium with DR. Pepper won't throw enough of a fit to make slowing the other 14 down worth it. Add the fact that people line up, compounding the time lost asking questions, and reasking if the order has multiple meals, and its far more useful to just assume. There are other factors but it remains true.
Sometimes the stereotype is right and the people who don't fit don't like it, but in some cases its better to accept and expect some people to accept the assumption than slog the rest into the muddy waters of DEALING with it, where true injustice can occur, rather than simple misinformation.

 

[Kafka Torkarev]

SOOOOOOOOOO WAIT, does this mean i cant look at a female human and say DAAAAMN LOOKIT DAT ASS!?

 

[retyopy]

Ok, I am more one to argue the logic than the numbers, though I still aim for correctness.

First: We need to not equate Rape and Sexism, Rape is a violent crime carried out by violent(for the moment at least) people, on people weaker than them. Sexism is behavioral and in many cases, unrealized and unintentional. That isn't to say there aren't idiots out there with no interest in anything but themselves, thus motivating all sorts of ignorant acts, but as someone above pointed out, sometimes its as simple as offering unnecessary help.

Second: Sexist acts happen dependent on a situation. Guys lose in divorce court/custody disputes, and in a lot of societal pressures. Girls lose in the job market, and in a different set of societal pressures. I think neither gender has it better overall, or at least that no one can prove such, because the impact of an act is relative, based on many MANY factors.

Third: I'd like to posit that equality is a poor term in this case, because racism=/=sexism.
I'd say fairness would be better.
Why you ask? Because in some situations, unlike race, which has little effect on a person's capabilities, girls have(according to wiki) roughly 52 percent the upper body strength of guys and 66 percent the lower body strength of guys. Unlike race where the capabilities are entirely equal, sex actually has an effect.

Equality implies that the same value can be expected from both sides, in many ways, it cannot, look at all of the stupid little studies, or simply read the wiki on sexual dimorphism sometime. Fair means allowing for the inborn strengths and weaknesses of a gender, rather than simply ignoring them as equality must needs do.

Fourth: Numerous does not mean statistically significant, there are girls who hate shopping for example, my girlfriend included. But that doesn't doesn't negate the fact that MOST girls do like shopping, and aiming ads towards them, or portraying such characters on tv isn't going to die out because the 1/20 girls who genuinely defy that stereotype ***** a lot. Wake up call, the other 19 are all out spending money, responding to the ads and identifying with the characters, which means the stereotype will persist.
Some stereotypes are justified, I want to use my job as an example. At my Burger King, we are trained such that if someone orders a meal by number(#1=Whopper Value Meal, etc) we are to give them a small size meal, and with Coke, if the order is drivethru. Know why? Because we strive to get the food ready and to them by the end of 2.5 minutes,and despite the possibility that we will be wrong, asking the necessary questions takes too long. The 1/15 people who wanted a medium with DR. Pepper won't throw enough of a fit to make slowing the other 14 down worth it. Add the fact that people line up, compounding the time lost asking questions, and reasking if the order has multiple meals, and its far more useful to just assume. There are other factors but it remains true.
Sometimes the stereotype is right and the people who don't fit don't like it, but in some cases its better to accept and expect some people to accept the assumption than slog the rest into the muddy waters of DEALING with it, where true injustice can occur, rather than simple misinformation.

What does this have to do with anything? I understand that stereotypes have been brought up, but try to link it to the thread in some way.

 

[Panda Mania]

Men don't have it much better? *shuffles feet* Well...Eh, I guess by our standards, it all looks pretty terrible. But if you lower your perspective and look at the society on its own, women do not have the same rights as men do. Not in a "oh, they're just different rights" way, but in a "their worth is less than that of men" way. And human rights is the answer to such a society, but a part of human rights is about equality and equal opportunity, and that includes the equality of the sexes.

I think saying that "more" rights automatically means they have it better is kind of shallow. Working conditions in third countries are terrible, though the ones working the worst jobs there are usually the men. Men also have far more responsibility, both in and out of the family, and generally face more stress. Not to mention that third world countries have a lot of wars and conflicts, which are almost exclusively fought by men. And stuff like conscription, etc.

Again, I would never make a broad statement that either sex undeniably has it worse than the other, I just think you're vastly oversimplifying it if you're only looking at rights.

*thinking face* That is probably oversimplifying it. A lot of things are far below the ideal over there. Perhaps the solution is to, as people work to better all of those conditions, to shift some of that massive responsibility over to women. In the name of equality, distribute the responsibility. Responsibility is, interestingly enough, entangled with the concept of rights, because when you're entitled to something, you're also responsible for it. It's not a bad thing, it just means that both men and women must share the workload. With equal rights, things can improve a lot quicker because you allow women to work. In fact, some economists theorize that countries that oppress their female population are crippling themselves economically*, and this is why nations like China, which realized this and set its women to work in factories, are so economically successful. As for conflict, well....that should just end, regardless of gender involvement. (On a potentially explosive tangent, would there be less war if more women were in power? Who knows...)

*Okay, my source on this (and actually a lot of my position) comes from the excellent book Half the Sky , which explains in detail a lot of the situations of women in developing countries, and (even better) discusses and suggests solutions for them. I highly recommend it.

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

Except it's not always males. I've experienced woman saying that the way other woman are treated by men in other countries is awful, all the while sitting on a comfortable couch, watching tv.

I was under the impression that we were discussing the situation within our nations of residence. The ones that we can actually draw experience from and adequately assess the current state of affairs for. That's the thing that annoys me, people who complain of mistreatment of gender when they have had no experience of this themselves, or have seen it happen to those around them.

 

[MassiveGeek]

I do think that somewhere, somehow, femenism went from the awesome sexual freedom, YEAH accompanied by playboy bunny chicks to the less awesome but fair equality in all major instances, woooh and now somehow ended in...

The same situation as it was in the middle ages but with women instead of men at the top, yay!

That's of course not completely accurate and not all feminists think that way, but it seems that it has somehow turned out taht way. I mean, look at all the inequalities for men, they get judged on points women aren't judged on, like clothing(men can't wear what they want without people hurling), interests(if you like things that are considered "too" nerdy or such people disregard your interests) and how they act(I ran out of examples).

I just think it's bullshit.
Really.

I would've added more here but it's 04.00 here, so sleep.

 

[inquisiti0n]

Let's say that you only meant the one in bold...

That's exactly what I meant. Didn't wanna take the word out of the sentence because there would be no context, so I bolded what I was referring to.

...that's still advocating advertisements that perpetuate a negative stereotype and portray women as incompetant and ineffectual. 'Don't worry puny woman, the men have arrived to lift this heavy thing with ease and confidence. But if you want to feel like your actually worth something by association, why not just cling to my arm.' The point is that kind of marketing is the sort of shit that brings out the worst in both genders.

Ok now it just sounds like you're twisting a harmless joke into some incredibly offensive personal insult. Is it that you feel degraded by having to ask someone (who happens to be a man) stronger than you for help? If you see a woman unable to lift something heavy, and view that as, "well she's incompetent," that says more about you than whatever the media is portraying.

That's the thing that annoys me, people who complain of mistreatment of gender when they have had no experience of this themselves, or have seen it happen to those around them.

So I can't complain about sexist divorce laws & alimony until I'm financially bleeded dry by a bitter ex-wife?

Guess I can't care about rape victims either until they affect me or my direct family/friends.

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

I just wanna know if you're one of those feminists who go so far as to ignore the physical differences between the sexes.

Who said that I was a feminist?

 

[inquisiti0n]

^if you're not a feminist, then it's quite a coincidence how your views align so closely with theirs.

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

The point is that kind of marketing is the sort of shit that brings out the worst in both genders.

Ok now it just sounds like you're twisting a harmless joke into some incredibly offensive personal insult. Is it that you feel degraded by having to ask someone (who happens to be a man) stronger than you for help? If you see a woman unable to lift something heavy, and view that as, "well she's incompetent," that says more about you than whatever the media is portraying.

The point is, that kind of marketing is just the lowest common denominator. It's the sort of thing that tries define people by their most basic stereotypical perceptions. It unecessarily reinforces, tired and outdated gender rolls insulting viewers of both genders. It's saying to the male 'this product will you to impress girls, since that's basically the crux of your entire existence isn't it you lecherous fuck?' And to the women 'if you don't have a man who's going to help you lift that thing? Fix your car? Keep you company those lone winter nights? Your life isn't fulfilled unless your married by 30.' It tries to portray both sexes as being fundamentally useless on their own and only given any significence in finding somebody else to fuck. But whatever, a lot of you seem to spinning my words and labelling me a feminist, so fuck this thread. Adios.

 

[silent_noir_67]

youre highness potentially?

I think that society has programmed both men and women to try and fit into idealist roles that are entirely achievable. Men? be manly, take an interest in manly things and be extremely muscular. And you can't show emotion AT ALL cuz thats the weak thing to do.

Girls? be feminine and pretty. be extremely skinny try and find a man to love. you also need to act like you have no self esteem and toy around with guys.

I think that everything we've been brought up on (tv, movies, video games, books) really enforce these stereotypes. Therefore we all find those standards attractive and as a result judge all who don't fit under those conforms.

 

[Jake0fTrades]

And I stand by my point that just because its on a smaller scale, it can't be ignored. But I see what you're coming from.

I was about to come take your side until I saw you settled it peacefully.

Anyway, I agree with you, it pains me to see incredibly ignorant and aggressive "feminists" who more rightfully suit the definition of "supremacist."

 

[OtherSideofSky]

As usual, I blame the neuro-typicals for these idiotic social prejudices and how hard it is to have a decent discussion about them.

The problem that always comes up in these debates is that there are two fundamentally different types of sexism that we need to separate in order to get anything done.

1.) Institutional discrimination. Laws that explicitly favor one gender over another, imbalanced hiring and promotion practices, unequal pay, etc. This has mostly been corrected (note the word "mostly", neuro-typicals often seem incapable of understanding it) in the past several decades, and what remains (in the US, anyway) is primarily a bi-product of social prejudice rather than actual policy. This can cause problems for both men and women (fewer women in technology and executive positions, men have a hard time getting jobs working with children or touching people). This is not usually what people are talking about in thread like this.

2.) social discrimination. Prejudices held by the majority of society. These mostly take the form of stereotypes which are propagated through the mass-media. they often inform peoples' actions and can effect everything from hiring practices to the outcomes of trials. Both genders have advantages and disadvantages distributed about equally in this area, although problems for women receive the lions-share of media and academic attention (this is a side-effect of the movement to end the severe institutional discrimination against women, which produced the terminology with which we have these discussions). This is what people are talking about in these threads (if they aren't retarded).

I would also like to remind everyone that we high-functioning autistics, regardless of gender, face more and worse discrimination than either gender and receive absolutely no attention or sympathy for it.

That out of the way, I would like to say that a double standard absolutely exists in media, although it is sometimes in favor of men and sometimes of women, depending on the situation. The imbalance comes from the fact that people have trained themselves to be far more alert and sympathetic when the bias is against women.

To give a relatively recent example, last year there was an episode of the TV show "Castle" in which the running joke was that no one would rape a man because "all you have to do is ask", implying that no man would ever refuse sex. This would have never been allowed to air if the genders were reversed in that situation. As someone once said (I forget who it was or where I read it) "if you're watching a movie and a man rapes a woman, he's the worst bastard ever and Bruce Willis will put a bullet through his head in the third act. If a woman rapes a man, then you're watching a wacky romantic comedy". Regrettably, it's accurate far more often than not.

This is not to say that women don't also face serious problems as a result of double standards, just that they are not unique in being subject to them. The problem is further compounded by the fact that people tend only to notice discrimination against them or in favor of another, never discrimination against another or in favor of them.

Edit: Also, "feminism" is not a meaningful term in a contemporary context. What was once a semi-unified movement has fragmented and spread into a myriad of conflicting ideologies all claiming the same name (not unlike some religions). There is no longer any reasonable standard by which we can define what is or is not "feminist", so the term has become empty and subject to a range of interpretations to wide to be useful in anything but misdirection. Stop using it if you want people to understand you.

 

[The Dr0w Ranger]

Snip

What does this have to do with anything? I understand that stereotypes have been brought up, but try to link it to the thread in some way.

Because stereotypes largely underlie the sexist acts that we are debating.
The stereotype of men as poor parents has led to a bias against awarding men custody. A lingering lack of respect for women has left many fields male dominated.

To address the third world, the men there are justified in forcing sex upon women, in some cases. I knew a Kenyan woman who said you could be caned in the street for anything a man felt like caning you for. That isn't sexism, that is complete lack of human rights enforcement, and the physically superior have forced their will in the absence of a dominant legal body to change it. I don't mean that women aren't violently and disgustingly oppressed, its just not the same situation as first world countries and the solutions are wildly different.

Also, until my full 19 years of life as a straight white male is transferred directly to someones brain, I will continue to disregard claims of privilege. I am poor as dirt, the only help I get for college is grants, based on my(SMALL) income. I haven't been taunted in the streets or caned, but then again I don't know an American woman who has been either. In fact, if I look around, I know a LOT more men working 3 minimum wage jobs trying to make child support, than I do women who even get called names. Hell, the RM for my store? Female. 5/7 of my managers at all? Female. Bosses at previous jobs? ALL female. And I live in nothing like an enlightened area.

 

[inquisiti0n]

The point is, that kind of marketing is just the lowest common denominator. It's the sort of thing that tries define people by their most basic stereotypical perceptions. It unecessarily reinforces, tired and outdated gender rolls insulting viewers of both genders. It's saying to the male 'this product will you to impress girls, since that's basically the crux of your entire existence isn't it you lecherous fuck?' And to the women 'if you don't have a man who's going to help you lift that thing? Fix your car? Keep you company those lone winter nights? Your life isn't fulfilled unless your married by 30.' It tries to portray both sexes as being fundamentally useless on their own and only given any significence in finding somebody else to fuck. But whatever, a lot of you seem to spinning my words and labelling me a feminist, so fuck this thread. Adios.

Ok well this started off with me saying how portraying women as physically weaker isn't some negative, insulting stereotype. You made the assumption that a women unable to lift something heavy always leads to a man helping her out, leading to unrelated analysis of gender roles, but what I was talking about is how the portrayal of a female being weaker than a man isn't anything to get upset about. Oh, and it's not even something you see in the media that much. What's much more rampant these days are these ridiculous fantasies where some heroine fights off a bunch of guys who in real life would crush her (ie, Hanna, Salt, Haywire, etc).

Secondly, I never called you a feminist in attempt to discredit what you're saying (that would just be an alternate version of Godwin's law), but it's just obvious you are, so why hide it?

 

[Hitokiri_Gensai]

well, the sexism i see the most against men, is that lesbian or bisexual women, are seen as sexual objects, while bisexual or homosexual men are seen as disgusting.

I dont agree with it, but yeah.

 

[Panda Mania]

Ok, I am more one to argue the logic than the numbers, though I still aim for correctness.

First: We need to not equate Rape and Sexism, Rape is a violent crime carried out by violent(for the moment at least) people, on people weaker than them. Sexism is behavioral and in many cases, unrealized and unintentional. That isn't to say there aren't idiots out there with no interest in anything but themselves, thus motivating all sorts of ignorant acts, but as someone above pointed out, sometimes its as simple as offering unnecessary help.

Second: Sexist acts happen dependent on a situation. Guys lose in divorce court/custody disputes, and in a lot of societal pressures. Girls lose in the job market, and in a different set of societal pressures. I think neither gender has it better overall, or at least that no one can prove such, because the impact of an act is relative, based on many MANY factors.

Third: I'd like to posit that equality is a poor term in this case, because racism=/=sexism.
I'd say fairness would be better.
Why you ask? Because in some situations, unlike race, which has little effect on a person's capabilities, girls have(according to wiki) roughly 52 percent the upper body strength of guys and 66 percent the lower body strength of guys. Unlike race where the capabilities are entirely equal, sex actually has an effect.

Equality implies that the same value can be expected from both sides, in many ways, it cannot, look at all of the stupid little studies, or simply read the wiki on sexual dimorphism sometime. Fair means allowing for the inborn strengths and weaknesses of a gender, rather than simply ignoring them as equality must needs do.

Fourth: Numerous does not mean statistically significant, there are girls who hate shopping for example, my girlfriend included. But that doesn't doesn't negate the fact that MOST girls do like shopping, and aiming ads towards them, or portraying such characters on tv isn't going to die out because the 1/20 girls who genuinely defy that stereotype ***** a lot. Wake up call, the other 19 are all out spending money, responding to the ads and identifying with the characters, which means the stereotype will persist.
Some stereotypes are justified, I want to use my job as an example. At my Burger King, we are trained such that if someone orders a meal by number(#1=Whopper Value Meal, etc) we are to give them a small size meal, and with Coke, if the order is drivethru. Know why? Because we strive to get the food ready and to them by the end of 2.5 minutes,and despite the possibility that we will be wrong, asking the necessary questions takes too long. The 1/15 people who wanted a medium with DR. Pepper won't throw enough of a fit to make slowing the other 14 down worth it. Add the fact that people line up, compounding the time lost asking questions, and reasking if the order has multiple meals, and its far more useful to just assume. There are other factors but it remains true.
Sometimes the stereotype is right and the people who don't fit don't like it, but in some cases its better to accept and expect some people to accept the assumption than slog the rest into the muddy waters of DEALING with it, where true injustice can occur, rather than simple misinformation.

I like your point about the difference between equality and fairness. Men and women are certainly different physically (mentally? Erm, I'm just gonna avoid that debate ^^. This is why we have girls' and guys' soccer teams, why more men work in the construction industry, and why there are usually more girls on the gymnast team in school than guys (well...at least there are in my school). Let us not staunchly insist that "OMG the sexes are equal in EVERY SINGLE WAY" as some alarmingly misinformed feminists do, but recognize the differences and make room for both dissimilarities and same worth(s?) in our practices.

 

[neonsword13-ops]

Most people really don't care for sexism against men. Which I can understand. Men were sexist against women for more than 50 years.(And counting)

Female sexism has had a much longer and stronger effect on the world then male sexism has today.

 

[reiem531]

Right, so when an article comes up about a woman who was raped, I suppose I'll just post that picture. What? I'm a horrible person for saying that? Deal with it.

Firstly, men are not raped in nearly the same numbers as women. Secondly, that was totally fucking capricious and wildly extreme. I was merely saying that sexism against men really is practically a non-issue and that you and many others like you are making way too big of a deal out of something that occurs far more infrequently when compared to the figures of discrimination of literally every other minority there is. What the hell did any of that have to do with rape?

40% of domestic abuse is committed against men. And yes, obviously rape is not the same thing as domestic abuse, but the point remains. No one gives a shit that men are abused almost as much as women.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence