Sexism in gaming, do we really give a f**k?

[f1r2a3n4k5]

As gamers, we should try to encourage new audiences to join our hobby by providing an inclusive environment. You can still have your "Over-the-top Sweaty Man Action Shooter 9" if you want it. But we should also be encouraging the exploration of new ideas and markets.

This culture of indifference is part of the problem.

Where were are at: It's as if painters only painted pictures of sailboats. Sailboats are nice. People buy sailboat paintings; they must be the best. We should just paint sailboats for the rest of all time. Anyone who doesn't like paintings of sailboats is overly dramatic and should get over it.

Where we should be: I like paintings of sailboats. I'll buy those. Oh, you like paintings of landscapes? There's this great artist for landscapes, you should check him out. Maybe we should try painting people. Or how about abstract designs?

And there's not a limited amount of caring. This is pointless hand-wringing. Someone else being passionate about an issue is not going to strip away your ability to be completely indifferent to it.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Well obviously we do if you felt compelled to make thread about it.

 

[Lee Oyd]

2012 will be remembered as the year the mass of greasy creeps calling itself the "gaming community" finally admitted it hates women.

I'm saying that absolutely literally. It hates people with vaginas.

Oh sure, it lurves the IDEA of what it wishes women were. Big tits, tight ass, free access to 3 holes for any greasy fuckface with no rhyme or reason. Free food. House that cleans itself up. But the second any hint is dropped about a woman's life not entirely orbiting about sweaty neckbeard balls, it flips its fucking shit.

http://www.fightersgeneration.com/nx4/game/doa5milascreen2.jpg

 

[Signa]

but it does affect me, so I do care.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not flaming - just genuinely interested.

How does it effect you?

just take tera as an example, its a mmorpg and there its not unimportant for me to have a connection to my character. Now thats difficult if even the aman females dont look half as awesome as the males cause they need to be overy sexy and pretty. I play mmorpgs to be a warrior or what ever, not a playboy bunny or a model.
I played bioshock infinite recently, and pulling a lever elizabeth cant pull cause I am strong man is weird to me cause I am also a girl and sure not much stronger than eli is, just as an example of immersion problems with the male, 30ish, brown haired protargonst that is being recycled so much.
I guess it has also to do with women being rated by their looks more. I am not a model but not ugly either, but I have a lot of other things to offer aswell, and a character in a game that is soley there to show off her T&A and not being relevant or actually a chracter with a personality, simply displays values that I could never agree on: that looks are more important than anything else.
It is also difficult to find a character you can relate to if you have to choose between not being a character at all and lacking personality or simply being of the wrong gender.

I think that Anita isnt doing anything wrong. her presentation is a bit lame but she shows from what gaming should get away. Why is Peach being captured that often? If that plot part doesnt matter, you could throw it out for something else equally shallow but not sexist. Why does a dev-team have a hard time finding a publisher for a game with a female protargonist who is female in more regards that just her looks?
Why is it alright that certain games offer a lot of different types of male characters to play while the female ones allways have sexy as their first attribute?

Why would I have to prove how much I am into games just cause I dont have a penis?
I think that display of women, even if those are imaginary still affects how people see real women, and thats why I care about how women are shown in movies, books and games.

Is that a roundabout way of saying that your quality of life has diminished, because I'm not seeing a real answer to his question in there. I see someone who is mad, not affected.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I wish I had the strength to get into this thread, I really do. But every time I get involved in these threads I end up leaving them being more convinced that gamers (as a group not individuals, exceptions exist) have a really mixed and hurtful relation to women. Maybe it is just a lack of understanding of social sciences, but either way it creates exactly the kind of climate in these discussions that makes me think that we, as gamers, are getting exactly the kind of shitty games we deserve.

 

[Amanda Diamond]

I give a fuck when it comes to sexism in the work place or when a person is hostile to another person completely based on their gender alone.

However there is so much content out there in the world that I don't even know exists yet I know that it will more often than not be stuff I don't agree with that is trying to be serious.

However when it comes to video games. No developer or artist here is really trying to write some sort of political manifesto here and change how people should act with other people. It's a hobby that has the capacity to be artistic utilizing the visual medium in the same way an artist can draw, sculpt or craft what they think of and desire.

Because at the end of the day, NONE of the video game characters that apparently now are "victims" and should have the abusers arrested and put to trial DO NOT EXIST!

If you really care about sexism then you should care more about when it is two flesh and blood humans are interacting with each other. Not two video game characters interacting with each other.

EDIT: The only reason you get all these god damn shitty threads is that you have some person who is actually trying to be reasonable and usually tries a live and let live approach. Going up against a person so adamant about their ideology that EVERYONE should think and feel the same way they do, even if it means being completely destructive to the point of saying that certain types of content should not exist. Yet ironically constantly saying "We aren't going to take your games away". Sad fact is that, yes, yes they are. If people really want diversity there really is no one that is trying to intentionally stop them short of the same case other developers have to make to publishers when it comes to being a profitable investment.

The artist of Dragon's Crown did the same style in Odin's Sphere and Muramasa where it was completely unrealistic and fantasy based. Also we had in those games with extremely large breasts and no one gave two shits. So to complain about this is to quite simply not understand the artists style and be so intellectually dishonest that a person would put their own personal ideology over the actual evidence.

Video game designers don't necessarily have to have a deep dark secret agenda to accidently indoctrinate and propagate harmful messages. Like it or not the media we consume does have a profound ability to shape our perceptions. Nobody is going to take whatever games away from people because they aren't 100% inoffensive; partly because they already exist and partly because rational people can criticize they media they like and still like it. My problem with video games(movies& books& tv ) is not how the certain characters are marginalized, but whether this will effect real people in the real world. I do care about sexism in video games.

 

[God's Clown]

I say let the developers create the games they want in the art style they want. If you don't like the style, don't play the game. They aren't making it for you, or people like you if you hate it, they are making it for them, and other people like them who like it.

Plenty of different games out there for everyone. Not every game needs to be hyper sexualized men and women, nor does every game need to be realistic in proportions.

 

[TTYTYTTYYTTYTTTY]

As gamers, we should try to encourage new audiences to join our hobby by providing an inclusive environment. ...we should also be encouraging the exploration of new ideas and markets...

How are we not? Indie games and mobile games, have and are expanding the people who play games and the definition of what it means to be a "gamer". People are also fully capable of making new games to fill the other niche groups, who might become mainstream. If you can't find a publisher or private investor, then there is kick-starter and other forms of crowd funding and even without that with enough time dedication and ability, it is possible to create the beginnings of a well loved game. Minecraft, Notch started it alone in a basement.

Personally I think that rather then "lobbying" EA or other companies to bow down to political correctness, it would be best if the big companies (more importantly shareholders) learn how profitable it can be to include even more demographics.

 

[gamernerdtg2]

I think people just need to lighten up and vote with their wallet. If you see something that you don't like, don't buy it. I think the art in Dragon Crown looks unbelievably stupid... Sexist ? Who cares? It's art. I just won't buy it because I think it looks stupid.

Yes to the voting with our wallets part, absolutely.

I can't stand the art debate in games because it's extremely confining, and it ignores gameplay. If Dragon's Crown is terrible, then any conversations about it won't matter.

 

[fallendong]

I say let the developers create the games they want in the art style they want. If you don't like the style, don't play the game. They aren't making it for you, or people like you if you hate it, they are making it for them, and other people like them who like it.

Plenty of different games out there for everyone. Not every game needs to be hyper sexualized men and women, nor does every game need to be realistic in proportions.

I've been lurking on these boards for years. Mostly because I like laughing at all the doe-eyed idealists who have no idea how the real world works.

You sir, you are an intelligent person. I feel that you deserve recognition in this sea of safety helmet enthusiasts.

 

[Wintermute_v1legacy]

Having gone through some SEXISM! MISOGYNY! TITS! MALE PRIVILEGE! threads before, I haven't read a single word in this one. Moving on.

No, can't say that I do. Honestly, I had a mild interest at first. Then I realized 'wait, why am I wasting my time with this?' and went back to things that actually matter to me. I'm not part of the industry, I'll never be part of the industry, I play like 3 different games a year, I don't care if someone 10000 km away from me is offended that XYZ game is sexist.

I spend some of my time focusing on things that happen in my real world, things happening in my city and country right now, you know, things that could affect me and those around me. I've got bigger problems in my life (don't we all?). Women in bikini armor? Men the size of refrigerators? Anita? You can have them.

But hey, if you think it matters to you, go ahead.

 

[DementedSheep]

If your sick of talking about sexism maybe you stop making threads complaining about feminist because that more often than not is how this shit get brought up in the first place.
The gears of war meat heads and the hitman saints aren't equivalent. The guys from gears of war aren't designed that way to be attractive, to most woman they really really aren't. They are meant to be strong and intimidating hence the stupid over-sized muscles. The saints on the other hand are designed to titulate. I don't really mind the saints, i found the trailer vaugely amusing, there is nothing wrong with stupid ott fan service on occasion and anyone who say that is normal for female video game characters has selective memory and hasn't played many video games but still there are issue. Mostly with media in general and repeated themes rather than just video games. In general I think it's pretty pointless to point one character and go "that's sexist!" unless its blatant and repeated across multiple characters.

 

[Andy of Comix Inc]

There's a difference between "pretend to be this bug burly muscular man" and "look at these women." The problem isn't really so much representation (though certainly it plays a huge part), but aim - men are in games for men, women are in games for men. I mean, taking The Sorceress thing in that Dragon's Crown game. The men are all muscular, burly fellas - which may be misandrous, but it's a male fantasy to be a muscular burly hero. Then the women are (with an exception) big-breasted, long-legged, porcelain faced TNA dispensers. Which is, again, a design aimed at men.

The idea is that gaming should really be becoming more inclusive. It's easy to make a character that appeals to everyone, male or female. It is not a hard thing to do. You can hook into both typical male and female fantasy - this means, though, making female protagonists that... you know, they can be sexy! Men want be James Bond or Indiana Jones and their lives vicariously. They want to get the girl in the end and whatnot. But many women want to have adventures too, violent ones where they're the hero fighting bad guys and getting their girl/man/whatever in the end. And that... that's not there. Men and women in games are there for... men.

It would be easy to make the women in Dragon's Crown appeal to women. They can be beautiful, sexy even, but not specifically there for the male gaze, y'know? Look, at, say, Scarlett Johansson's character in The Avengers - she's "hot," yes, but she's also dressed appropriately, she's extremely talented, and very much there for a reason beyond "do something sexy for the men" - even if that is a side effect.

 

[Jenvas1306]

but it does affect me, so I do care.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not flaming - just genuinely interested.

How does it effect you?

just take tera as an example, its a mmorpg and there its not unimportant for me to have a connection to my character. Now thats difficult if even the aman females dont look half as awesome as the males cause they need to be overy sexy and pretty. I play mmorpgs to be a warrior or what ever, not a playboy bunny or a model.
I played bioshock infinite recently, and pulling a lever elizabeth cant pull cause I am strong man is weird to me cause I am also a girl and sure not much stronger than eli is, just as an example of immersion problems with the male, 30ish, brown haired protargonst that is being recycled so much.
I guess it has also to do with women being rated by their looks more. I am not a model but not ugly either, but I have a lot of other things to offer aswell, and a character in a game that is soley there to show off her T&A and not being relevant or actually a chracter with a personality, simply displays values that I could never agree on: that looks are more important than anything else.
It is also difficult to find a character you can relate to if you have to choose between not being a character at all and lacking personality or simply being of the wrong gender.

I think that Anita isnt doing anything wrong. her presentation is a bit lame but she shows from what gaming should get away. Why is Peach being captured that often? If that plot part doesnt matter, you could throw it out for something else equally shallow but not sexist. Why does a dev-team have a hard time finding a publisher for a game with a female protargonist who is female in more regards that just her looks?
Why is it alright that certain games offer a lot of different types of male characters to play while the female ones allways have sexy as their first attribute?

Why would I have to prove how much I am into games just cause I dont have a penis?
I think that display of women, even if those are imaginary still affects how people see real women, and thats why I care about how women are shown in movies, books and games.

Is that a roundabout way of saying that your quality of life has diminished, because I'm not seeing a real answer to his question in there. I see someone who is mad, not affected.

well if I get mad, which isnt quite the right word, then it affected me aswell, right?
also, as I play games for relaxiation in my free time I would say anything that reduces my joy of doing so also reduces my life quality. there are some other implications there, of social nature, but the connections there might be a little far fetched.
But it was asked how it affects me and I explained, if you cant see an answer in that, it might be because we are different people and you cant see it from the side I just described?

 

[Lee Oyd]

Just about every game ever hates women. Welp, I think I'll buy no game ever. That'll work.

 

[Lee Oyd]

there's no reason for Kratos to be shirtless all the time other then trying to appeal to women or gay men (same with 300).

Because he's a crazed killing machine who gives zero fucks about anything. It's what his character is about. Kratos is not a reasonable man.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101121232322/blazblue/pl/images/b/ba/Makoto_Nanaya.pngAs opposed to a furry-themed hooker.

 

[Windcaler]

I just don't really see it is an issue. If we want to talk about character design what about this?

Look at them big burly men, with their big over exaggerated arms, and their tiny heads. With marcus fenix holding his gun like its a large semi erect penis. Its fucking faggy. Yet none of us complained, no one complained, many of us liked the gow games (they suck btw).

But is this over masculine portrayal any worse than the over sexualised depiction of women in video games. Its rooted in the same place, its rooted in "fantasy". Now i could understand the commotion if Madison Paige was dressed like a hooters waitress in heavy rain. Or if Alyx Vance ran around in HL2 in nothing but slabs of steak pinned to her vadge and breasts. But they don't because its a different type of fantasy.

Lets bring this old chestnut up.

There was uproar when that trailer was released, personally i found the trailer hilarious, and have you played the game? It's so tongue in cheek how are we meant to take any depictions of any demographic seriously in that game seriously? Yet a vocal proportion of the game industry was prepared to donate their testicles and wang in the name of feminism.

I think the real problem here is something closer to home. The fact that many gamers probably aint the coolest of people, and the biggest of studs. Hell i split up with my partner six months ago and have got laid once. I think its more a problem of social inadequacy with women more than anything.

My point is, all the characters that are portrayed in an over the top fashion are our bedroom fantasies. Those that are standing up for feminism need to take a think why they feel such the need and should maybe go protest at record labels who produce manufactired girl groups then market them to teenage girls, indirectly promoting a highly sexualised image of women. Let me have my bedroom fantasy if im the demographic the dev is aiming for. I watch porn but i didn't become a plumber thinking i would get to bang loads of chicks. I would of become a pool boy for that.

anyway i just got in from the pub, I'm probably talking out my ass.

Edit: Also I'm not saying there isn't sexism in the industry, I'm just saying its being chased in the wrong places.

Perhaps I misunderstand you. Are you saying we shouldnt discuss sexism, perceived sexism, fantasy tropes, and how those make gaming look to those not part of our medium?

I dont mind if you dont care about the discussion regarding sexism. Just as I dont mind if you dont want to be part of the discussion of the artistic merit behind games. However I wholeheartedly believe that these are discussions we have to have if our medium is to move forward into a respected art form. If you dont care about these discussions, thats fine, but I have to ask: why do you insist on being a part of discussions that you dont care about? I just dont understand the mentality you say you have