Sexism in gaming, do we really give a f**k?

[ItsNotRudy]

I love how slutty costumes in videogames are the biggest sin in the industry according to the fanbase, because 'that's not how an independent woman dresses *stomp ground*- but apparently the professions where women have to wear similar or even skimpier outfits are totally fine (models anyone?)

I don't see why women as a whole are offended by crazy outfits, because let's face it- there are particular groups of you who wear the same stuff with pleasure. Not small groups either (sluts, cosplayers, models, actresses, game girls, pornstars.. are they all victims?)

 

[Lee Oyd]

I love how slutty costumes in videogames are the biggest sin in the industry according to the fanbase, because 'that's not how an independent woman dresses *stomp ground*- but apparently the professions where women have to wear similar or even skimpier outfits are totally fine (models anyone?)

I don't see why women as a whole are offended by crazy outfits, because let's face it- there are particular groups of you who wear the same stuff with pleasure. Not small groups either (sluts, cosplayers, models, actresses, game girls, pornstars.. are they all victims?)

The latter chose her path because she's a person. The former is a greasy neckbeard fapping to a mutilated Frankensteining of human-ish traits (all of which are about his dick) with barely a thing to do with actual women. Then he'll complain about ugly bitches or do a billion other things that aren't showering.

http://www.fightersgeneration.com/nx4/game/doa5milascreen2.jpgFor reference, just getting that face will cost you something like $50 and half a day in haircuts, hair dye and makeup. Per week.

He's not a feral dog though

Yes he is. The shit he's been through turned him into one. He doesn't give a single fuck anymore. That's his entire background.

 

[Lizmichi]

I would really just like characters, manly female but also male, to have more depth to them and not just play of the gender roles. I can only name a few female characters that seem real so to speak. It feels like they're not just playing a steriotypes but a person if you get what I mean. Like to me characters like Naoto and Kanji from Persona 4 are what I'm talking about. Naoto hates being a girl because of the stigmas assosiated with women in male dominated areas of life and Kanji is the same way but with the stigmas about what a man should be, which is not gay and tough as nails with no soft side because that's not what a man is. I can list a few more characters like that but I feel Naoto and Kanji are the best I can pick out.

Also to get to another point if a game is not meant to be taken seriously, I don't. I laugh at it and enjoy how my gender is depicted. In the Saints Row gamesI enjoy beatting the crap out of the hookers. Really for me it depends on the game. I'd be offended if a Saint's Row hooker was in a game like say Mass Effect....

Spoiler: Oh what.. Hmmmmmmmmm.

Nah I'm good, yea that's kinda funny.

In short the art doesn't bug me as much as the way the characters act. Is it sexiest yes in a way it is but the sad fact is a change like this is bigger then Lulu in FFX and the mean heads in Gears of War.

 

[Signa]

well if I get mad, which isnt quite the right word, then it affected me aswell, right?

Yeah, in the simplest terms, but that's not really the degree we are discussing this topic at. If it was, anyone could use that excuse for circular logic and nothing would ever be solved.

"I'm affected because I'm mad because I'm affected because I'm mad..."

If being irritated/unimmersed/mad is the only repercussion you expereince, then the burden is on you to get around that than to tell everyone else that they need to stop irritating/unimmersing/infuriating you. I forget the comedian, but it's like he said, "saying 'I'm offended' is just another way of saying that you can't control your emotions, and everyone else should do it for you." Society is never going to move forward while we are all caught up walking around eggshells.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

All I have to say in this thread is:

The Gearbox character designs are a power fantasy. The (stupider than fuck fucking fuck that shit) fetish ninja nuns are a sexual fantasy. Those are two different things. I am sick to death of people trying to justify overly sexualized female characters by saying "well all male characters are burly and testosteronous, so that makes it ok". NO IT DOESN'T YOU FUCKING TWATFACES!!!! The reason you don't see people complaining about Marcus Fenix's biceps is because they are games designed by men, for men, the art drawn by men, and marketed and sold by men.

And yes, we should totally stop giving a shit about sexism in gaming, and in the gaming community in particular. Because hey, severe problems have always disappeared when we just turn our backs on them and don't care, right?

 

[shadow skill]

I love how slutty costumes in videogames are the biggest sin in the industry according to the fanbase, because 'that's not how an independent woman dresses *stomp ground*- but apparently the professions where women have to wear similar or even skimpier outfits are totally fine (models anyone?)

I don't see why women as a whole are offended by crazy outfits, because let's face it- there are particular groups of you who wear the same stuff with pleasure. Not small groups either (sluts, cosplayers, models, actresses, game girls, pornstars.. are they all victims?)

The latter chose her path because she's a person. The former is a greasy neckbeard fapping to a mutilated Frankensteining of human-ish traits (all of which are about his dick) with barely a thing to do with actual women. Then he'll complain about ugly bitches.

http://www.fightersgeneration.com/nx4/game/doa5milascreen2.jpg

Your point being what exactly? Is it the costumes that are the problem or the fact that the women are there for the men and the men are there for the men as well? I would think that the fact that these women in videogames are not people tend to mean that the problem isn't that the Frankensteins exist, the problem lies in the overwhelming amount of them.

 

[Maevine]

Yes, I care about sexism in games and gaming. I've been negatively affected by it, so it's a thing that matters to me. I don't think it's an issue that will go away if we ignore it. If it were, I'm pretty sure all of my younger years of ignoring it wouldn't have ended up being so crappy <.<;;

Also, there's nothing wrong with fantasy. There's nothing wrong with skimpy women and hulking dudes. Their existence has never been the problem. The problem arises when we're completely over-saturated with just ONE type of woman. ONE type of dude. When that's the only message we're getting, it's easy to internalize for the worse, and then we start having some issues.

Sexy stripper nun assassins may seem like an awesome joke, but if that's what they were going for, they missed the landing by a long-shot and jumped the gun by 10 years. I probably would have laughed too if those women didn't look like, you know, most other 3d ladies I still see on the shelves (MMOs take the cake for ridiculousness).

PS: While Marcus may be the bees knees for some gals, this is by accident, not design. If you wanna see some men that were specifically designed to make teenage girls horny, check out the Otome community. Also note the lack of men who look anything like Marcus.

 

[Lee Oyd]

snip

The problem lies in the fact that character designers only give a shit about good character design when it has a dick. Sometimes not even then.

A sexy succubus is good character design. It fits. She lures men through sex to feed on them.
A sexy naked stripper on her shift is good character design. It fits. Her job is being sexy and naked and she's in the process of doing it.
Anna Williams from Tekken is good character design. Sex is amongst her weapons. It fits.

See how it works? Also, water is wet.

 

[DementedSheep]

there's no reason for Kratos to be shirtless all the time other then trying to appeal to women or gay men (same with 300).

Because he's a crazed killing machine who gives zero fucks about anything. It's what his character is about. Kratos is not a reasonable man.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101121232322/blazblue/pl/images/b/ba/Makoto_Nanaya.pngAs opposed to a furry-themed hooker.

He's not a feral dog though, he was a soldier and a general and he should know the value of armor. Hell in God of War 2 he had armor then makes no attempt to acquire more. Hell he could grab some off the people he killed.

I think I remember seeing in the making of that they actually did give him traditional greek armour originally but test groups said he "didn't look greek enough" so sandals and cloth it was.
regardless I'm pretty sure savage is what they were going for because Kratos is one ugly mofo.

Its kinda of like the difference between this

Spoiler

and this

Spoiler

Probably not the best examples still same character, roughly the same amount of clothing, completely different impression.
Edit: wow that wasn't even legible. I shouldn't post in the middle of the night lol.

 

[Jenvas1306]

well if I get mad, which isnt quite the right word, then it affected me aswell, right?

Yeah, in the simplest terms, but that's not really the degree we are discussing this topic at. If it was, anyone could use that excuse for circular logic and nothing would ever be solved.

"I'm affected because I'm mad because I'm affected because I'm mad..."

If being irritated/unimmersed/mad is the only repercussion you expereince, then the burden is on you to get around that than to tell everyone else that they need to stop irritating/unimmersing/infuriating you. I forget the comedian, but it's like he said, "saying 'I'm offended' is just another way of saying that you can't control your emotions, and everyone else should do it for you." Society is never going to move forward while we are all caught up walking around eggshells.

so we are not even discussing the topic, we are discussing the discussion.
In my choice of games to play naturally my emotions also influence me. The question was how sexism affects me and I stated it. In no way am I getting 'mad' at sexism, it usually makes me more sad, sometimes it disgusts me and those are certainly not pros for any game.
If you see a black guy in a movie and he naturally is just there to die first and before that talk in steretypical ways, isnt that bothering even for people who arent black?
Same goes for sexism. the question should be if something is sexism, not if sexism is bad.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

I'm a female and I'd have a pint of something nice with you.

All Sarkeesianism does for me is that it meanwhile manages to piss me off on sight.

I considered myself quite a feminist when it really seemed to matter to me in the 1980s. On came the 1990s and grown men started to dress themselves like giant babies and considered themselves to be gangstas. The personal bits had to be not only groomed, but shaved clean to look like pedo baby bottoms. Somewhere around the turn of the century, so around 50 After Dianetics, I gave up on public feminism as it was well taken over by commie bastards where I live, and it stopped being worthwhile, effective or fun. They're still at it as we speak, but all they're doing is tearing shit apart, with a not too post-punk eff-it-all-and-eff-you attitude that pees well in my cup of tea, on a daily basis I might add.

I live out my egalitarian, feminist and revolutionary payload on a much more personal and intimate level now, and I can't say I am very ineffective or unhappy rolling like that.

Plus, I can totally enjoy video games without having to be offended on a daily basis.

It's a bloody video game. If people think jiggly tits are fun, let them have them. Let's all laugh in unison if these poor souls try to live out their dreams with a fifty pence hooker and her saggy tits. Shit hurts, so I am really, really friggin' happy the Sorceress is not real and does not have to put up with sports bras, under-tit-sweat-sores or Dolly Parton style back aches because her tits weigh a back breaking metric ton.

You can't call for freedom of speech and artistic freedom on one hand and then turn frothing Goebbels the very instant something pops up that doesn't fit into your two-bit soviet definition of fine arts. It's just wrong.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Um I'd say most gamers don't care about sexism. But that's the exact problem isn't it.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

The artist of Dragon's Crown did the same style in Odin's Sphere and Muramasa where it was completely unrealistic and fantasy based. Also we had in those games with extremely large breasts and no one gave two shits. So to complain about this is to quite simply not understand the artists style and be so intellectually dishonest that a person would put their own personal ideology over the actual evidence.

We can't "give two shits" if we never heard of them. Thanks to this new game being in the spotlight, I now do and can laugh at those other games as well.

While I have never played Muramasa, I can say that with Odin Sphere, you're missing out. You might not like the visual style, which, of course, will negatively affect your acceptance and enjoyment of the game, but Odin Sphere is a very well put together, very stylish and very technically sound title.

I put some 40 to 50 hours of playing into this one before I finished it, and it's just an excellent title, with Famitsu giving it a Silver Award.

If all you're set out to do is to go forth and laugh at that, I really think you're making a mistake.

Boasting about it in public is another one. But that one's actually human and can happen to any of us.

 

[shadow skill]

snip

The problem lies in the fact that character designers only give a shit about good character design when it has a dick. Sometimes not even then.

A sexy succubus is good character design. It fits. She lures men through sex to feed on them.
A sexy naked stripper on her shift is good character design. It fits. Her job is being sexy and naked and she's in the process of doing it.
Anna Williams from Tekken is good character design. Sex is amongst her weapons. It fits.

See how it works? Also, water is wet.

No, because you are demonstrably wrong even by your own implicit criteria of thematic consistency. Faith from Mirror's Edge is an excellent character design she wears clothing that grants her a great deal of movement and all it is, is just regular street clothes you might see someone go jogging in. Dante from Dante's Inferno isn't, not only does he look like a fool, his look doesn't say anything about what he is about. War in Darksiders is over drawn, the artist just kept adding stuff so he ends up looking like an even goofier version of Raiden from Mortal Kombat. New Dante is absolutely terrible, his aesthetic does not match his combat style at all and he ends up being indistinct from all the other brown haired white male protagonists already out there. Old Dante was a much better design as his look was consistent with how he fought and the rest of his personality. Even Rubi from wet is pretty good she's dressed in normal street clothes. It is a shame that the game itself was pure trash.

 

[Lee Oyd]

Are you implying male character design can't be shit? Because it absolutely can. All of the designs you said were shit were indeed shit and nobody hesitated to call them out as such.

Now let's at least try and hold female characters to the same standard. What's there to lose? It's not like we haven't been building a solid library of Sextits McStrongwomyns to make our hentai out of during the last 20 years.

 

[shadow skill]

Are you implying male character design can't be shit? Because it absolutely can. All of the designs you said were shit were indeed shit and nobody hesitated to call them out as such.

Now let's at least try and hold female characters to the same standard. What's there to lose? It's not like we haven't been building a solid library of Sextits McStrongwomyns to make our hentai out of during the last 20 years.

No I'm pointing out to you that your assertion that artists only care about good character design if it has a dick is demonstrably false. There is plenty of shit design all around, it might actually be worse for males since they end up being the main character an overwhelming majority of the time. (We need more good/decent female leads.)

 

[Naeras]

The characters in GoW wasn't designed that way to pander to female fantasies. It was, just like the cases of dumb female portrayal, an attempt to pander to men. That's the fundamental difference.

There's been a couple of cases where the sexism in a game really did pander to women, though. Those cases blew up just as hard as the nun assassins mentioned above. These cases just not as common, as this medium is predominantly marketed towards men.

 

[Signa]

Same goes for sexism. the question should be if something is sexism, not if sexism is bad.

Once that is determined, then what? Are you saying that we should only identify sexism, and do nothing else? That's about the only action I'd agree with. We've already proven how easy it is to interpret something as sexist, so merely identifying it is just a frivolous pursuit.

Now seeking sexism out in effort to destroy it sounds like a much more worthy goal of someone who is bothered by sexism. Someone who is annoyed, saddened, or bothered by it. Some one who doesn't care if it's really actually sexist, or if the game has other merits. Someone who can't have fun with the game's mechanics, or the overall narrative if someone with boobs is shown in the wrong light. Nope, finding sexism is only the first step, calling it bad and destroying it is the only possible goal after identifying it.