Sexsim: have the tables actually turned?

[Terminal Blue]

Please define essentiality. Do you mean by the utility in a given action, or are you taking into account irrational factors?

Yeah.. looking back I can see how it might have come across like that.

I meant essential as in an 'essentialist' argument, which is basically what this whole crapmire is. It's the idea that there are certain behavioural or social attributes which are common to men and women everywhere and are not influenced by society. It's essential in the sense of the word 'essence', in that it posits people's sex as fundamental to who they are, and that 'who they are' never changes and cannot be socially influenced.

It's a failed argument, basically. There are always human behaviours which don't fit, and thus noone can agree on what the 'essence' actually is, which means it's not essential. If it was essential, it would be universally true and absolutely definitional and would thus be very easy to pin down.

 

[Shadeovblack]

./' ./"./
She got the goooldmine, I got the Shaft. They say they're splittin' it up the middle, then they give her the better haaalf. Well it all sounds kinda funny, but it hurts to much to laugh (hah hah hah) Oh, she got the goldmine, I got the shaft.
./' ./"./



http://youtu.be/oyqe8n-pbqQ

 

[mgirl]

Actually yesterday i was talking to a friend about why lesbianism is more accepted than homosexual males in a community. Its when i realised this: Male sexuality is taught to be disgusting and vulgar. Female sexuality is encouraged, get in touch with an inner you people cry, its ok to be open with your feelings.

Let me just take an example from my own life: the rules generally are that other women are freaked out or disgusted by lesbians, but are indifferent to, or find gay men endearing. This happened quite a lot to me, as I had a gay male friend that made lots of female friends, but the same women didnt really like me BECAUSE I was gay.

Homosexuality is sometimes viewed by men, if it is a man, to be grossm and what you say there holds true, BUT with women, an alarmingly large amount of the men I have known have been under the impression that lesbianism is ok cause it's 'hot'. This pisses me off a great amount, I mean, seriously, this IS NOT OK. I've had guys assume that I'm with a girl for their fucking benefit, so they can enjoy the 'sights'! Since when should lesbianism be a fucking spectator sport?? Because porn says so???

Eh, and so far as the 'female sexuality is encouraged' thing, yeah, bullshit. At least in my circumstances. I hid who I was thoughout high school, because things were bad enough with bullying as it was, and I didn't want to give them more ammo. I've been taught that the things I should want are a traditional family, and that's so ingrained, it actually bothers me that I can't have that. That, on top of dealing with people who actually shout at you on the street, calling you sick, and you know what? That's proof enough for me that it's definately NOT encouraged.

Just as a disclaimer, that wasn't a personal attack on you, at all, I just needed to get the point across. Rant over.

EDIT: Just making it a bit less angry... a bit

 

[imnot]

In the UK two women die every week from domestic abuse.


So no. The tables have not turned.

Im not sure thats technically sexism, but I could be wrong. If they are abusing the woman than I see no reason why they wouldnt do the same to a man. (Dont get me wrong Im not defending the dicks)

EDIT: By dicks I mean the men not the women geting abused, just to avoid any confusion)

 

[MGlBlaze]

No, we aren't. Women still have to deal with shit that men don't have to, and you can't say the same about the opposite. I have no idea why everyone on the internet is so against feminism.

Rights of parenthood, full stop. Especially in cases where the man has been the primary carer, and became a 'househusband' because it 1) made financial sense and 2) both agreed to it. A shocking amount of the time the woman appears to loose respect for the man and ends up in divorce. A lot of the time the man only gets to see their child only once every other weekend. One particularly lucky man I read about managed to get a 50/50 split.

 

[DaedalusIcarus]

Yes, I'd certainly say so by now.

I won't pretend that *everything* is in their favour, for example, there's still a slight gap in salaries in my country, but that may as well be attributed to the fact that men are more aggressive when negotiating the terms of their employ than their female counterparts.


But here's a fun example of "equal rights" for you guys:
In Norway, they apparently enacted a law which established a quota which meant that a minimum of 40% of the board of directors of a company should be female.

In Denmark, we are now toying with the same idea, in fact, two of the parties which just won the election would like to enact the very same law.

Around 2008, only 5% of the boardroom members were female in this country and should the legislation pass, that means a gap of 35% needs to be covered by 2015, essentially meaning a lot of males will need to be laid off or have their career derailed by some notion of "equality" while at the same time, companies need to find a lot of females to promote to leadership positions which must necessarily mean promoting a lot of inexperienced people as they haven't been at the very top.

To me, it spells disaster as well as being a clear case of government-backed gender-based discrimination.

Do I think 5% female representation is enough ? Probably not, I'd like to see more, but I'd prefer society acknowledging that certain things take time - we've essentially become an equal society, but that wasn't the case when most of the present leaders started their careers. I'm sure that, given time, the gender distribution at the company top will even itself out - I'm very much concerned at this "over night" approach to things.

 

[Vault101]

Um, just possibly it's the person who has resorted to sexist language to patronise the other who is making it personal.
Why laughable? That sort of thing is hardly uncommon in other areas.

Putting aside the idea of women receiving less money for now, you'd agree that it's in the interest of the business/whomever to have the most qualified person for the position, right?

And yet, industry/politics/military of the Western world tends to be dominated by heterosexual white men. You could say they are the majority, but they sre still over-represented.

Or, to take a more concrete example, the US military has only recently allowed openly gay personnel to serve within its ranks. Is this because up until recently, gay people weren't good enough for the military? That they still aren't, and allowing them in is a mistake? Or was there a bias against them that had nothing to do with their actual ability.

Yes, it'd make rational sense for businesses to ignore gender, but prejudice isn't based on rationality. Few people are going to consciously reject a woman on the basis of her gender, they are going to assume that a woman isn't as good as a man (in some sense) and react accordingly.

"Putting aside the idea of women receiving less money for now, you'd agree that it's in the interest of the business/whomever to have the most qualified person for the position, right?"

Yes.... to a certain degree.

"Or, to take a more concrete example, the US military has only recently allowed openly gay personnel to serve within its ranks. Is this because up until recently, gay people weren't good enough for the military? That they still aren't, and allowing them in is a mistake? Or was there a bias against them that had nothing to do with their actual ability."

While I personally do not have much of an opinion in regards to DADT, I think it was for gays very own protection. Really, I never actually cared about it... or for homosexuals in general.

In regards to women in the workplace, I really do not give a shit about whether or not people find this opinion misogynistic, but if I was given the choice, I'd only hire males for my businesses, as women are financial timebombs. Men generally also do more hours than women.

judging from all your posts ...yeah you kind of are misoganistic..and I doubt you would really try and see the other point of veiw

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Actually yesterday i was talking to a friend about why lesbianism is more accepted than homosexual males in a community. Its when i realised this: Male sexuality is taught to be disgusting and vulgar. Female sexuality is encouraged, get in touch with an inner you people cry, its ok to be open with your feelings.

Please don't talk about the stuggles of lesbians and gays unless you understand them.

Let me just take an example from my own life: the rules generally are that other women are freaked out or disgusted by lesbians, but are indifferent to, or find gay men endearing. This happened quite a lot to me, as I had a gay male friend that made lots of female friends, but the same women didnt really like me BECAUSE I was gay.

Homosexuality is sometimes viewed by men, if it is a man, to be grossm and what you say there holds true, BUT with women, an alarmingly large amount of the men I have known have been under the impression that lesbianism is ok cause it's 'hot'. This pisses me off a great amount, I mean, seriously, this IS NOT OK. I've had guys assume that I'm with a girl for their fucking benefit, so they can enjoy the 'sights'! Since when should lesbianism be a fucking spectator sport?? Because porn says so???

Eh, and so far as the 'female sexuality is encouraged' thing, yeah, bullshit. At least in my circumstances. I hid who I was thoughout high school, because things were bad enough with bullying as it was, and I didn't want to give them more ammo. I've been taught that the things I should want are a traditional family, and that's so ingrained, it actually bothers me that I can't have that. That, on top of dealing with people who actually shout at you on the street, calling you sick, and you know what? That's proof enough for me that it's definately NOT encouraged.

Just as a disclaimer, that wasn't a personal attack on you, at all, I just needed to get the point across. Rant over.

My best friend is gay. I have another friend who is also a lesbian. The homophobia in my school has only ever been directed at him, ive helped him come out to his parents and the school because thats what he wanted to do, the girl also. However i only ever find myself defending him, not her. Its odd really, the girl was told what she did was brave by most people and my friend got very little support, and is infact made fun of by some who i then track down and barate. I do understand, im talking from my experiences.

 

[Shycte]

ohlookitsthisthreadagain.jpg

Anyway, no. You are still better of being a man, truth.

 

[Neonit]

men have no idea with what kind of shit woman has to deal and vice versa.

so we can sit here, and "discuss" but the only thing we can hope to achieve here is a flame war.

every time both genders get to the middle of balance, somebody tips the scales in favor of one gender. deal with it - it wont go away.

 

[DaJoW]

The lower income thing is because men usually choose to perform jobs that pay more (they're usually more demanding in effort and time investment, more risky, women choose careers based on interest and passion rather than payout, etc).

The Beaureu of Labor Statistics disagrees. [http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2011/ted_20110216_data.htm] In any profession, women earn less than men. Or would you say men perform "more demanding in effort and time investment, more risky" jobs in education, retail, financial activities and public administration? The type of work where the genders are closest is construction, where I'm guessing they do pretty much the some work.

OT: No. Not by a long shot. Men have it less better than women, but we're still favoured in pretty much every field in pretty much every way. Number of female CEO's of Fortune 500 company's? 12. 0.024%. Things are slightly better in Fortune 1000, where women make up 0.025% of CEOs. I accept that these positions are filled based on talent and experience, but 12 out of 500?

If you want to be among the very richest, you better be a man.

 

[Thaluikhain]

My best friend is gay. I have another friend who is also a lesbian. The homophobia in my school has only ever been directed at him, ive helped him come out to his parents and the school because thats what he wanted to do, the girl also. However i only ever find myself defending him, not her. Its odd really, the girl was told what she did was brave by most people and my friend got very little support, and is infact made fun of by some who i then track down and barate. I do understand, im talking from my experiences.

*sucks teeth*

You're still in the position of an outsider looking in, though. There's a limit...admittedly, not everyone from group X has the same experiences and none of them can speak for the whole, either.

 

[mgirl]

Actually yesterday i was talking to a friend about why lesbianism is more accepted than homosexual males in a community. Its when i realised this: Male sexuality is taught to be disgusting and vulgar. Female sexuality is encouraged, get in touch with an inner you people cry, its ok to be open with your feelings.

Please don't talk about the stuggles of lesbians and gays unless you understand them.

Let me just take an example from my own life: the rules generally are that other women are freaked out or disgusted by lesbians, but are indifferent to, or find gay men endearing. This happened quite a lot to me, as I had a gay male friend that made lots of female friends, but the same women didnt really like me BECAUSE I was gay.

Homosexuality is sometimes viewed by men, if it is a man, to be grossm and what you say there holds true, BUT with women, an alarmingly large amount of the men I have known have been under the impression that lesbianism is ok cause it's 'hot'. This pisses me off a great amount, I mean, seriously, this IS NOT OK. I've had guys assume that I'm with a girl for their fucking benefit, so they can enjoy the 'sights'! Since when should lesbianism be a fucking spectator sport?? Because porn says so???

Eh, and so far as the 'female sexuality is encouraged' thing, yeah, bullshit. At least in my circumstances. I hid who I was thoughout high school, because things were bad enough with bullying as it was, and I didn't want to give them more ammo. I've been taught that the things I should want are a traditional family, and that's so ingrained, it actually bothers me that I can't have that. That, on top of dealing with people who actually shout at you on the street, calling you sick, and you know what? That's proof enough for me that it's definately NOT encouraged.

Just as a disclaimer, that wasn't a personal attack on you, at all, I just needed to get the point across. Rant over.

My best friend is gay. I have another friend who is also a lesbian. The homophobia in my school has only ever been directed at him, ive helped him come out to his parents and the school because thats what he wanted to do, the girl also. However i only ever find myself defending him, not her. Its odd really, the girl was told what she did was brave by most people and my friend got very little support, and is infact made fun of by some who i then track down and barate. I do understand, im talking from my experiences.

Ok ok, fair enough, but from what I've seen that is quite unusual. Like I said, in most cases, that I have seen, each group gets homophobia from their own gender, and believe me, I know a fair few other gays, and taken from all their experience, they have all suffered homophobia, but mostly from their own gender. In this sense I guess it's 'equal'. Doesn't make it any less sad though...

 

[Vault101]

Actually yesterday i was talking to a friend about why lesbianism is more accepted than homosexual males in a community. Its when i realised this: Male sexuality is taught to be disgusting and vulgar. Female sexuality is encouraged, get in touch with an inner you people cry, its ok to be open with your feelings.

Please don't talk about the stuggles of lesbians and gays unless you understand them.

Let me just take an example from my own life: the rules generally are that other women are freaked out or disgusted by lesbians, but are indifferent to, or find gay men endearing. This happened quite a lot to me, as I had a gay male friend that made lots of female friends, but the same women didnt really like me BECAUSE I was gay.

Homosexuality is sometimes viewed by men, if it is a man, to be grossm and what you say there holds true, BUT with women, an alarmingly large amount of the men I have known have been under the impression that lesbianism is ok cause it's 'hot'. This pisses me off a great amount, I mean, seriously, this IS NOT OK. I've had guys assume that I'm with a girl for their fucking benefit, so they can enjoy the 'sights'! Since when should lesbianism be a fucking spectator sport?? Because porn says so???

Eh, and so far as the 'female sexuality is encouraged' thing, yeah, bullshit. At least in my circumstances. I hid who I was thoughout high school, because things were bad enough with bullying as it was, and I didn't want to give them more ammo. I've been taught that the things I should want are a traditional family, and that's so ingrained, it actually bothers me that I can't have that. That, on top of dealing with people who actually shout at you on the street, calling you sick, and you know what? That's proof enough for me that it's definately NOT encouraged.

Just as a disclaimer, that wasn't a personal attack on you, at all, I just needed to get the point across. Rant over.

with all respect I dont think people should be automatically banned from discussing certain issues, because they havnt experienced them first hand

like If guys started talking about the implications of say domestic abuse or rape, I dont think its fair to say "you cant have an opinion! this is a womans issue! youve never been abused/raped!"

however I do agree with you in regards to the lesbian thing, its kind of hilariously niave for guys to think its "more acceptible" because "omg man! lesbians hooott!!!" as you said its not %100 fine with alot of chicks

and even worse its only acceptible for guys if they are "hot"...butch lesbians? from what Ive seen they seem to be acceptible targets for everyone to ridicule

and while I cant completley understand what its like having never experienced such a thing...the thing about "being with a girl for their benefit".....man that would fucking piss me off too

 

[someonehairy-ish]

Well, I do English (lit and language as seperate courses) as well as maths mechanics at A level, and I'm pretty much the only guy in either of my English classes. Also, there are only two girls in Maths.

So there is clearly a difference.

However, the girls in my English lessons don't seem to get any preferencial treatment over me or vice versa, and the same goes in maths. But I think it can be quite hard to get taken seriously as a guy doing English by people outside of the actual lessons. So there's that...

On a societal level, I think that it is important to continue efforts to reduce discrimation against women as well as ethnic minorities, gay people etc, but it is also important not to try to shoehorn people into areas they do not want to go into just to reach some kind of quota. If only 10% of the governing board of your company is female, don't try to fill out the number of females with people that would be better in a different role, but do promote capable women as and when they come along.

 

[DaedalusIcarus]

Actually yesterday i was talking to a friend about why lesbianism is more accepted than homosexual males in a community. Its when i realised this: Male sexuality is taught to be disgusting and vulgar. Female sexuality is encouraged, get in touch with an inner you people cry, its ok to be open with your feelings.

Please don't talk about the stuggles of lesbians and gays unless you understand them.

Let me just take an example from my own life: the rules generally are that other women are freaked out or disgusted by lesbians, but are indifferent to, or find gay men endearing. This happened quite a lot to me, as I had a gay male friend that made lots of female friends, but the same women didnt really like me BECAUSE I was gay.

Well - you may actually be wrong. I can't dispute how you've perceived things growing up, but I can question whether it represents the majority.
Recently in my country, they enquired a large population of pupils as to how they felt about people being homosexuals and while only some 13% of the females found homosexuality offensive, I'm sad to say that close to 50% of the males had a problem with it.

Of course, this is just an example from my country and it needn't be the *exact* same thing in yours, I'd still call it a more valid argument and I'd caution against extrapolating an universal truth based on your immediate circle of acquaintances.


I'm not trying to say that you've had it particularly easy or *anything* like that. My brother is gay and so whenever people around me express disgust at homosexuals I also cringe a bit - I can only imagine being the target of that hate.

 

[mightybozz]

I have never felt belittled or disadvantaged in society by reason of my gender. I'm male, and a proud feminist. In my opinion, every right-thinking person who has had their conciousness raised ought to be a proud feminist. I have never felt that "affirmative action" has screwed me out of a job, and frankly I wouldn't give a damn if it had. I note that most of the criticisms in this thread so far lack direct evidence, and are based on anecdotal evidence and assumptions. This is typical of criticism founded on right-wing newspaper scaremongering.

Some actual facts: women earn less than men across the board, despite in most countries having either the same or slightly higher academic qualifications than men. They take more part-time work because there is still the assumption that they should be caring for children, and they have to take time off work to do so.

The vast majority of politicians and powerful people in business are men, and in an age where lobbying has largely replaced democracy, that screws us all.

America sees vicious debates, even murder committed over questions of what a woman can and cannot do with her own body.

I hardly need to go into the vacuous manner in which women are portrayed in virtually every medium. Apply the Bechdel test to videogames (hell, just watch the Extra Credits episode on this subject) or indeed any medium and it is very hard to find a human portrayal of a woman, rather than a woman from a man's point of view. Some of you may be familiar with the recent trial of Amanda Knox for the murder of Meredith Kercher. All of the speculation in the media was focused on and tainted by the notion that Miss Knox had bought condoms and might have (shock horror!) had a sex life - so she must have been guilty! She may have smoked spliffs with her boyfriend! She owned a vibrator! All of this quasi-medieval witchunting continued AFTER the Italian courts had freed her. The assumption was that a sexually-active female was somehow wrong and therefore guilty was genuinely disturbing.

Women are not equal, they never have been. And the weird anti-feminist backlash that spills over the internet genuinely scares me. Especially in these forums, which at least most of the time are more intelligent than the average internet discussion.

Before anyone makes any judgements on this, please go out and read some basic feminist texts. A solid, but readable and succinct introduction is Kate Banyard's "The Equality Illusion". Unless you have read arguments on both sides of a debate, you cannot assess their merits.

 

[mightybozz]

Double post, sorry

 

[flamingjimmy]

Men still get paid more, and are significantly more likely to get promotions, in pretty much all societies, even modern liberal ones.

 

[retyopy]

Well, I grew up in an awesome town, which pretty much accepted anybody, no matter what, so...

Can't really give any opinion on this. without going into TL;DR mode.