Sexuality in Mass Effect

[Doug]

After a couple Mass Effect sessions, I got to thinking about the romance options. I'm sure this has occurred to others, but still.

A female Shepard can romance both sexes. You can roleplay her as straight, gay, or somewhere in between; it's totally up to the player whom she's into. A male Shepard, on the other hand, can only romance women. Even if you WANT to play a gay ManShep, you're simply not allowed.

After Dragon Age, which allowed the PC to fall just about anywhere on the sexuality spectrum, I was sort of hoping that Bioware had come to understand that their audience is not entirely male and not entirely hetero. But no, apparently not. And as a gay girl gamer, I think that really sucks.

What do you think?

I think its odd the main character can even have sex with...

Spoiler: Spoiler...sh - if you care about the romance scenes in Mass Effect 2

Tali - I mean, if even taking an unfiltered breath is dangerous, surely human/Quarian sex would be lethal to them.
Garrus - I mean...stales? Plates? I don't really want to imagine what a scaled penis would do to a woman.
Thane - see above, though add in the question as to whether or not his species lay eggs or similar.

The Asari at least have already been explained.

Anywho, as for why there is no man-on-man action... I dunno. Maybe there trying to avoid 'in the navy' jokes? Does seem odd when you point it out. Probably trying to avoid the Mass "Erect" Fox 'news' reports again. Fucking Fox news.

EDIT: Corrected - the spoilers were for mass effect 2, not 1.

 

[Eerors]

Personally, I don't think I would care if the developers had just included hetero relationships because then it would have been just another RPG but not quite to me.

Thinking about it now, its funny to see that an teen/adult orientated game shys away from gay relationships, while The Sims franchise (aimed at the younger audience) allows you to actually have same sex couples....with all the Woohoos you want....

 

[Pyode]

Judging from how profitable the industry is, it certainly isn't a minority.

Compared to the movie industry and other art forms, gaming is most definitely a minority.

Actually, the game industry is second now only to the pornography industry. Shocking, I know.

Are we talking about financially or users? Financially I can see because of how much money goes into the development of a game, but if you were to compare the number of moviegoers to gamers, I don't think there would be much comparison, especially when you consider movies have been around for over 100 years and games have only been around for the past few decades.

 

[Deathkingo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iErIdatd268&feature=related

A happy little anecdote.

 

[grimsprice]

THANKS!

I can't believe how long this thread lasted before someone answered you. I mean, jesus, we even had a permanent banning before the end. Anyways, after a few hours of yelling, i thought i'd end your thread with an actual answer.

Maybe this is how it went down at Bioware...

The writing staff flushed out the story, characters, rolls, plot decisions, twists (and possible twists). Then they went back and said, alright, how do we allow for a paragon/renegade conversation options. Then, when the whole story and all its characters flushed out, they went back and said "alright, what possible relationships are there". Well, we have the standard hetero relationships for either male or female. And... oh wait, we have that Bi character. Yeah, she has to be Bi, because her species is monogender. So we can have her as a second option for both male and female.

Now, i don't know the characters in ME 2, because i haven't played it. So don't tell me. But i'd assume they did the same. Finish writing the story and its plot twists first, then go back and see what character romance options they have.

Bioware did not add any gay or lesbian characters. The Asari MUST be Bi. Just because of their nature.

Its called priorities. They write the story, then they do everything else, after, in order of priority. Relationships are probably pretty low on the list. Its not a soap opera, its a space opera. You wouldn't want them to "shoehorn" a gay and lesbian character into the story just because they could? Right? That would be controversy pandering? Right?

 

[TylerC]

Am I the only one who doesn't understand the banning of EspirituExterminatus? I mean he did nothing wrong except state opinions and facts, and defend himself against personal attacks by Mother Yeti.

On topic, Ryval, you said that the controversy from the "sex scene," in Mass Effect, was "Hardly mind blowing..." Ok, the game, the company, the publisher, and the industry in general was attacked by a major News and Media outlet. I'm sure many of those viewers didn't see their "apology." Don't you wonder why ME2's sex scene has absolutely no nudity at all? Yeah I'm sure Fox had nothing to do with that.

Mother Yeti, were you complaining about the lack of the option to be gay in ME1? Because like EspirituExterminatus they can't just make him suddenly change, that just doesn't make sense unless Cerberus messed up. Not saying that being gay is wrong, he just isn't.

And as was said before, they HAD to make being a lesbian an option due to the fact that the Asari are a monogender race (Not sure if that is the correct wording). I'm 99% sure they didn't go into laying out the game's story, races, etc. By saying "LOL I HATE GAYS, BUT LESBIANS RULE. YEAH THEY ARE HOT WE SHULD MAKE LESBIAN RACE OR SOMETHING. WIN." I'm sure excluding gays were not their intentions, but a directional oversight.

But if they did intentionally leave out the option of being a male homosexual, I'm sure they had their reasons. I mean we see Lesbians on T.V. kissing and whatnot on shows, and that is accepted. Now obviously this is a problem with American/Canadian Culture (not ignoring the fact that homosexuals are treated A LOT WORSE in many countries), but this is not even heard of with males. Bringing up the Fox controversy again, they call it a rape simulator for showing a few seconds of female ass, imagine the public outcry for male on male (Yes there is a flaw in my argument, because this happened after ME1 was released, but still...).

I'm sure there are more anti-gay gamers than there are gay gamers, and that's no surprise. Online all you hear is the use of the word "Gay" or the slang word for gay, which I'm excluding from this post,in ways that are completely wrong and are obviously bashing the gay culture. It's like saying the N word if you want to bring up the whole race issue.

There's more to it than just throwing in a gay character, I mean people think it's wrong to throw in a black guy just to show they aren't racist, which is racism in itself, so why try to throw in a gay character? You can argue all you want, but you can't have a perfect game that suits everyone, most companies will shoot for what makes people the happiest, and as I've stated above, there are a lot more in the anti-homosexual boat than there are in the pro-sexual boat, even if you don't want to believe it, it's true.

I'm sure I haven't covered everything that I should have, and I will if you quote any section of my post and free feel to message me. So I'm not even 16 yet, but that doesn't change anything I say here. I am not a homophob or anything like that, so please don't accuse me of that.

 

[TylerC]

And dude, the attitude of "I don't mind gay people as long as they're not all in my face about it" is textbook homophobia.

No, it's not. There is a difference between not hiding the fact that your gay, and making sure everyone in the room knows you're gay. It's the latter that pisses most hetros off.

I've known quite a few homosexuals in my life, most of whom made no effort to hide it, but it never bothered me. It was only when someone made sure I knew, by grabbing his partners crotch right in front of me (yes, this actually happened) or randomly started making out with their partner. It's not just gays either, these things piss me off when straight people do them as well.

The point is, gay or straight, I don't want to know about your sex life or orientation unless I specifically ask you.

You sir...are an idiot "Randomly start making out with their partner"....SO?! Im hetero and most guys do that with their girlfriends....such as my self....so now its a crime if a gay guy makes out with a guy

His point is he doesn't care what sexuality you are, he doesn't want to see you exchanging bodily fluids with another person. So what if you do it with your girlfriend? There are a lot of people against public affection, and making out in public places or what have you. Have you ever heard the phrase "Get a room?"

You need to read the whole post into things before you start calling people idiots.

 

[VanityGirl]

The only sex scene worth it in that game was FemShep and Garrus.

Yes, I said it.
Garrus, you can have sex with FUCKING GARRUS. That's the shit.
Gay or straight, that's the coolest thing ever put in any game EVER.

/end of fanism

 

[Cthulus MailMan]

And dude, the attitude of "I don't mind gay people as long as they're not all in my face about it" is textbook homophobia.

No, it's not. There is a difference between not hiding the fact that your gay, and making sure everyone in the room knows you're gay. It's the latter that pisses most hetros off.

I've known quite a few homosexuals in my life, most of whom made no effort to hide it, but it never bothered me. It was only when someone made sure I knew, by grabbing his partners crotch right in front of me (yes, this actually happened) or randomly started making out with their partner. It's not just gays either, these things piss me off when straight people do them as well.

The point is, gay or straight, I don't want to know about your sex life or orientation unless I specifically ask you.

You sir...are an idiot "Randomly start making out with their partner"....SO?! Im hetero and most guys do that with their girlfriends....such as my self....so now its a crime if a gay guy makes out with a guy

His point is he doesn't care what sexuality you are, he doesn't want to see you exchanging bodily fluids with another person. So what if you do it with your girlfriend? There are a lot of people against public affection, and making out in public places or what have you. Have you ever heard the phrase "Get a room?"

You need to read the whole post into things before you start calling people idiots.

Touche, but...where as a hetero male and female make out all the time and no body calls it into the spotlight if two guys make out such as my friends they usually get wierd looks and are treated somewhat like freaks, now I was not right in calling him an idiot its just that you can't expect people who love each other to not show it when they're by each other.

 

[RelexCryo]

I don't think gamemakers who want to make a game with ordinary sex are obligated to add my fetishes, nor do I think that game makers are obligated to add gay sex scenes. There is a difference between oppressing a minority and simply not including them. If Mass Effect came out and said that God hates gays and they should burn, then yeah, I would be pissed.

Your comparison of homosexuality to a sexual fetish is...off, to say the least.

Maybe it was cut for time. Or maybe, just maybe, they were exercising their right as the WRITERS to dictate a character trait. You aren't, after all, playing as *insert your name here* You could just as easily argue "why can't I play as gay Link?"

Does the phrase "Role-Playing Game" mean anything to you?

What is the point of Mass Effect if not to play out your characters in a way that reflects your own self. There's a reason why JRPGs get so heavily condemned for dictating your character's every action; RPGs are about making your own choices, not having them made for you.

That depends on how you define fetish. If you define fetish as something that is morally wrong, then the vast majority of things we call fetishes would not be fetishes. If you define fetish as a sexuality that only a small number of people are into, then yeah, homosexuality is a fetish.

The problem here is that fetish has a negative, immoral connotation in peoples' minds. But that negative connotation stems from the perception that unusual sexuality is "wrong." And of course homosexuality is an unusual sexuality as well.

Is tying up your lover and spanking them, consensually, immoral? No, but it is still called a fetish. Just because an apparently small number of people like that thing. Most things we call fetishes are actually not immoral, and are only really defined as fetishes by their minority appeal. And because homosexuality also has a minority appeal, that technically would make it a fetish. Your problem is that you have a negative mental image of the word, "fetish", for the same basic reason why so many people have a negative mental image of homosexuality. You just haven't questioned the origin from where your condemnation and negative mental image of the word "fetish" comes from.

 

[RyVal]

The point still stands; white, straight directors will still make films featuring gay or black people. People do not have to let their own personal identity dictate their creative process. If we did, then we wouldn't even have sci-fi in the first place.

Again, your talking about directors as though they are the writers. And I'm not saying that someones race or orientation "dictate" their creative process.

What I am talking about is not a conscious decision. Unless the storyline demands something specific out of the character, such as orientation or race, the writer will naturally model the character, at east partially after him/herself.

And there are films written by straight, white writers that feature black or gay people. The point still stands; people are not constrained by "what they know". How would they be able to write the characters of psychopaths, paedophiles and rapists if they could only model characters on themselves?

Also, sci-fi is a setting. I'm talking about character development, it's completely different. In every sci-fi I have ever seen, even though the setting is completely different, the people still act basically normal, allowing them to be easier to relate to and care about.

And you would find this impossible with homosexual characters?

That's a pretty dim view to take. As aforementioned, 99.9% of video games feature heterosexual characters, most of them in romantic situations. Yet somehow, I am able to appreciate their merits without being repulsed by their sexuality. It is not that hard.

Brokeback Mountain, American Beauty, Gohatto, even Tropic Thunder.

As I said, movies like that are rare. I never said they didn't exist. Also, in Brokeback Mountain, the homosexuality of the characters was essential to the plot (I don't know about those other two, I have never seen them). As I said above, typically, the only reason a straight writer will crate a gay main character, is because it is essential to the story being told. Also, the gay character in Tropic Thunder was a secondary character, I'm talking about main characters, and even then they only made him gay for comedic effect.

And I am talking about any characters at all. The fact is, homosexuals are confined to the gaming character ghetto. They do not exist - aside from rare cases like Jade Empire and niche indie games. Christ, even a comedic secondary character would be preferable to developers pretending they don't even exist.

Judging from how profitable the industry is, it certainly isn't a minority.

Compared to the movie industry and other art forms, gaming is most definitely a minority.

See the amount of money grossed by Halo 3, and the considerable media coverage of its release.

As aforementioned, there is nothing forcing these people to follow the homosexual option. They can ignore it completely and it will never affect them in the slightest.

I wasn't talking about Mass Effect specifically. I was responding to your claims that their aren't enough gay characters in gaming as a whole. In a liner game, a gay protagonist would be hard for the majority of gamers to relate to.

Then make it a secondary character.

Although again, I find it stupid that heterosexuals would find it difficult to relate to a gay protagonist, since - as aforementioned - I have never had that issue with straight protagonists. Lord knows, maybe if games actually had homosexuals, people would become more tolerant.

As most video games show, most dialogue is written on the back of a napkin and voice actors are brought in for a few days, allowing them to garble out their lines, before they are paid and kicked out. These are hardly time-consuming factors.

I think the writers of Mass Effect would beg to differ on that one. It's true that, in most game, story and dialog play second fiddle to gameplay, but Mass Effect is not one of those games.

Yet the dialogue is still not Leo Tolstoy. They may be better than most, but it still wouldn't kill them to add it.

After that, you have to input the animation and other coding. Then comes bug testing and the subsequent fixes and then you have to find and fix the bugs that your original fixes caused. It's not as simple as just typing in a few lines of code.

And this still would not take as long as you imply it would.

Can you really say that for sure? Anytime you are working with coding of any kind, the slightest mistake can cause a chain reaction of bugs that need to be fixed. Not to mention that the simple act of play-testing to find the bugs can take hours on end.

And this still does not explain why they simply could not have made a gay character while they were working on all the other characters, since that argument could apply to any character at all. Furthermore, if they were able to go through the apparantly time-consuming process of making two lesbian options, what is one gay option to that?

Keep in mind that this game is already on two disks. It's the first 360 game I have ever seen do that.

Again, I don't think a few "I love you lines" and a hugging scene are really going to tax the disk space.

I didn't mean to imply that there wouldn't be enough room, my point was that the fact that it was on two disks shows just how much work they had already put into it. To demand that that work wasn't enough seems kinda petty.

They had already demonstrated what was possible. They had taken steps to advance story-telling and make video gaming a more respected medium. And then they apparantly throw that away in favour of pandering to "Lesbian sex is hawt" while edging "icky gays" under the rug.

 

[tkioz]

Female Shepard isn't the "real" Shepard anyway, I played through a number of times on Mass Effect 1, as female, male, and the default male, and personally I prefer playing as the default male, so when it came time to import for ME2, I imported my old default male.

As for the gay thing... well... honestly I think it's a bit funny you can be a lesbian but not a gay man, but meh they already closed that door in ME1, so it's not like they can suddenly make him bisexual.

 

[Dr. Awesome Face]

ok. I am really not seeing why this is such a huge deal. So what if Bioware didn't include homosexual option for a male Shepard. It is not discrimination so just shut up. If your so desperate to have a male-male relationship go play dragonage. It wasn't included, get over it. There are many theories of why they possibly didn't include it, but how is that really going to help?

I am not homophobic. If two people of the same sex want to be with each other, then that is their business. Someone on the first page (I couldn't find the quotes) said something about Shepard obviously being straight. And this is true, Shepard was portrayed as a straight character, male or female (yes, female shepard could be with Liara but she isn't technically a woman), so all of a sudden allowing them to go bi or homosexual is stupid. What happened were they just waiting for someone different? Ashley could be an option for female, and vice versa with Kaiden.

Also don't hold your breath for a DLC for this, because new missions and intellegent characters are more important. Perhaps one of these intelligent characters (and by intelligent i mean well written not necessarily smart) could be a homosexual option for a male shepard.

Ok I'm done (not homophobic)

p.s I kind of got distracted from the original point I had planned to make. Mass Effect is not entitrely about the romance! For God's sake people! Mass Effect is awesome: great stories, well written characters and beautifully designed locations. yes the Romantic option is intriguing and is Bioware's latest little thing for gaming. But there is so much more to the experience.

Now I'm really done

 

[snow]

I guess I'll have to repeat for the 100th time... If the people who wrote the script didn't want a homosexual character in their story, then tough cookies. Want a storyline with a gay character so badly? Write one yourself...

Now, take this post, and replace the words "homosexual" and "gay" with any other minority.

Not trying to be rude to the gay community in any way, but ever since the push to make homosexuals more acceptable by putting gay characters in tv shows and movies... They just feel... Out of place. Some shows and stories that I have seen, didn't even need a reason to expose the sexuality of a certain character, but since they did so anyway, that character felt out of place with the rest of the story just because the writers didn't want to be called homophobes..

How is sexuality "out of place"? It's just - you know - there. If it was set in a period where homosexuality was immensely taboo, I'd argue that it would be "out of place" if it was tolerated, but would not be out of place for existing.

I'm not homophobic.. I have gay and lesbian friends whom' I hang out with almost on a daily basis.

Too easy to make a joke out of this.

Hmm... For whatever reason, the site decided to just display the end part where you said it was easy to make a joke out of the daily basis quip.

The beginning part where I said write something yourself, is not being homophobic in anyway. It was a suggestion that, instead of forcing others to sprinkle their stories with minorities, you can try your own hand in creating a script, and make some money out of it. Everyone is constantly babbling at others for not having this or that in their movies or games, but I don't see many people going into the field themselves to try their hand at creating something the way they want to.

Like for example... You don't see many movies shot in the first person where the camera "is" the main character like how in fps games the camera is the player. I myself am writing a script for a movie based around those lines.

Sure the first person movie has nothing to do with sexuality in movies/games, but it is rarely done and instead of complaining about it, I'm doing it myself.

It's pretty obvious that you don't have any experience in the film production world... In the storyline of a movie, things are revealed for a reason, and in most cases, has a reason for existing in the movie to further the plot of the film.

Films that have something sprinkled into the movie for the sake of pleasing the masses, don't work...

For instance, Pyramid head in Silent Hill.. Why was he there? It was a fan service, and that was it... His whole purpose in the film was to make it more appealing to Silent Hill fans, but in reality he did nothing for the story of the film.

They do the same thing with homosexuals... They put them in the film, but it's only because most of the time they don't want to be called homophobic.. Now if they stopped sprinkling them in films for that reason and gave homosexuals a purpose in the story. It would work better for the story itself, I think that's the part that you may have overlooked when I was trying to say that the first time.

Every piece of information that is revealed in a story, needs a reason for being in the story... Jann in Valkyria chronicles was an openly gay character, and there was a reason why we are told this, his love for Largo affected his actions in the show and thus explains why he did some of the things he does. Infact they do a good job at making the audience feel sorry for him because Largo is a straight character and thus they could never be. Jann would not have worked as a straight character in this situation because then he would be a useless character that no one would really give a damn about, but the fact that the writers gave his sexuality a purpose to his story, made him a fine example of how it should have been done.

Telling us that a character is gay with no reason besides telling us that they're gay, does not help the storyline at all, because then it doesn't matter. We feel no extra connection with the character for being told that, but if they gave that character a purpose, or perhaps having their sexuality affect their decisions in the story, we can connect with that character, and thus it would actually help the gay/bi/lesbian cause a LOT more.

I'm not saying that homosexuals should not be in films, I'm saying they should not be in films for the same reason that Pyramid Head was in Silent Hill... Give them purpose, perhaps have their sexuality be a turning point in the story itself? There are many things that could be done with this that simply aren't, and because they aren't, it falls flat.

I'm not against gay characters in games/stories like you're trying so hard to make me out to be. I'm against bad story telling due to the fact that developers, writers, and directors are taking the simple route by just throwing in these elements so randomly. I feel the same exact way every time something is thrown in to appeal the masses, be it Pyramid Head, Captain Barbossa (sp?), or even some of the characters in the Resident Evil movies, it's just bad story telling.

I've read a few of your posts already, and it seems that you're going through and picking apart peoples comments to make them sound like the bad guy... I would suggest not doing this because it seems very troll-like. If you're going to pick apart peoples comments, atleast explain why you're picking them apart, or ask questions as to why they feel that way.

You could have easily asked me to explain myself better, but instead you pushed to make me sound like an ass... Which in reality, if I were against your cause, you wouldn't be helping at all in terms of persuading my change in thought...

Part of understanding something is to sit down and discuss both sides of the story, all you're doing is picking out key parts of the story, and making whoever told it sound like a douche when in reality it might not have been intentional, but the fact that you're trying to make it sound intentional is like I said before, very troll-like..

Sure there are a few people on here that deserve such treatment, but I myself am not, and I could see a few others that you replied too aren't either... Now I gave you the benefit of the doubt by posting this long explanation for why I said the things I've said, but if you ever decide to take anything I say out of context the way you did ever again, that report button is just a click away...

You're not doing it to prove anything, you're doing it to anger the people that originally posted what they said before...

 

[GuerrillaClock]

Ok I'm done (not homophobic)

See, this is the really sad thing. When someone who is obviously not making a homophobic point feels the need to state that he definitely isn't for fear of being accused of being one, then it is a sign there is something really rotten in this thread. There are "us" and "them" lines being drawn by users on both sides of the debate here (you know who you are), and I don't like it one bit. It makes the gaming community as a whole look bad.

First of all, could someone please tell me what lesbian options are available in Mass Effect 2? I genuinely don't know, but, as has been previously mentioned, the Asari don't count (although their design is cynically female to please the hole-in-pocket brigade).

Remember games need to be very, very tentative when it comes to portraying sex. As mentioned, there is no point just flinging random story elements in for the sake of it, so why would they bother with including gay sex when it has no place whatsoever in this story? The reason the majority of games don't include gay characters is exactly this; they have no place in the story. In fact, sexuality of any kind plays a relatively small part in the vast majority of games, so why complain? Why should such meaningless things as who you are attracted to matter at all in a side-scroller, or an FPS, or a racing game, or even an adventure such as Zelda? The only games that can get away with this are the likes of Fable, which pride themselves on total freedom of choice, as opposed to ME, which prides itself on this freedom within the confines of a strict story with strictly defined characters.

Is the gay community so insecure these days that they feel the need to be represented in such things as sci-fi RPGs that feature more technobabble than affectionate patter? It appears a small minority of them, sadly, are. I am sure the vast majority of the gay community does not give a toss and doesn't play the homophobia card, or draw nasty dividing lines between the gay and straight communities, to try and prove their point, but a few of the posters on this thread need to cool off and realise that intolerance works both ways.

Anyway, a summary. Why should we have gay characters just for the sake of it? Why should we have relationships of any kind just for the sake of it? Thankfully, we don't always. Until videogame writing evolves enough to cope with this consistently, I'm perfectly happy with utterly sexless games, thank you very much.

 

[RyVal]

I don't think gamemakers who want to make a game with ordinary sex are obligated to add my fetishes, nor do I think that game makers are obligated to add gay sex scenes. There is a difference between oppressing a minority and simply not including them. If Mass Effect came out and said that God hates gays and they should burn, then yeah, I would be pissed.

Your comparison of homosexuality to a sexual fetish is...off, to say the least.

Maybe it was cut for time. Or maybe, just maybe, they were exercising their right as the WRITERS to dictate a character trait. You aren't, after all, playing as *insert your name here* You could just as easily argue "why can't I play as gay Link?"

Does the phrase "Role-Playing Game" mean anything to you?

What is the point of Mass Effect if not to play out your characters in a way that reflects your own self. There's a reason why JRPGs get so heavily condemned for dictating your character's every action; RPGs are about making your own choices, not having them made for you.

That depends on how you define fetish. If you define fetish as something that is morally wrong, then the vast majority of things we call fetishes would not be fetishes. If you define fetish as a sexuality that only a small number of people are into, then yeah, homosexuality is a fetish.

Neither of those are the definitions of a fetish:

1. an object regarded with awe as being the embodiment or habitation of a potent spirit or as having magical potency.
2. any object, idea, etc., eliciting unquestioning reverence, respect, or devotion: to make a fetish of high grades.
3. Psychology. any object or nongenital part of the body that causes a habitual erotic response or fixation.

Having a sexual fixation with women's feet? Fetish. Getting turned on by wearing leather? Fetish. Being sexually disposed towards your own sex? Biology.

 

[snow]

Ok I'm done (not homophobic)

See, this is the really sad thing. When someone who is obviously not making a homophobic point feels the need to state that he definitely isn't for fear of being accused of being one, then it is a sign there is something really rotten in this thread. There are "us" and "them" lines being drawn by users on both sides of the debate here (you know who you are), and I don't like it one bit. It makes the gaming community as a whole look bad.

Yeah I agree with you there, it urks me that I have to explain that I'm not homophobic so those that read my posts don't instantly label me as such, although it seems that somehow without technically being called a liar, I've been called a liar, and labeled as such..

The person who started this thread already explained that they're not trying to push the subject, but it seems that others are ignoring that statement and are attacking other peoples comments...

Please stick to the purpose of the thread everyone... This is not supposed to be a flame war, but a mature discussion... I nor anyone else should feel the need to defend themselves for expressing their opinions on the subject.

Yes I have read a few posts where people have gone too far, just take it with a grain of salt and move on... If they have said something that you feel is just there to cause a stir, then there's always the report button.

The problem with threads like this is that even when some one is just expressing their opinion on the matter, some one is going to misread it as something hateful... It's pretty obvious who is posting to be hateful and who isn't, don't just label everyone who has a differed opinion on the matter as some one who is homophobic... That just makes the original posters angry...

Like in my previous post, I should not feel the need to explain my feelings on the matter for the sake of saving face. Take it or leave it, just don't judge me because it was taken out of context..

 

[Break]

That depends on how you define fetish. If you define fetish as something that is morally wrong, then the vast majority of things we call fetishes would not be fetishes. If you define fetish as a sexuality that only a small number of people are into, then yeah, homosexuality is a fetish.

Both of those definitions are new to me. Pertaining to sexuality, a fetish is generally defined as "any object or nongenital part of the body that causes a habitual erotic response or fixation". At no point has the word been defined by morality, or by popularity; the fascination the world currently has with breasts, for example, is technically a fetish. Considering that fetishes are more or less what our concept of human sexuality - that is, a human's sexual identity - is built around, I would certainly hope that morality isn't a defining factor.

But what do I know, I'm only going by the dictionary definition of the word, and we all know how reliable those are, am I right?

ok. I am really not seeing why this is such a huge deal. So what if Bioware didn't include homosexual option for a male Shepard. It is not discrimination so just shut up. If your so desperate to have a male-male relationship go play dragonage. It wasn't included, get over it. There are many theories of why they possibly didn't include it, but how is that really going to help?

You might notice that the "huge deal" came afterwards. The OP was a straightforward discussion of the absence of a gay male option, and an expression of mild disappointment. The debate was whether or not this was intentional on Bioware's part, fairly civil and low-key. And then someone made a comment that was a little homophobic, and it all flared up from there - and then when people see the mess, and assume it's because gays got upset over being left out of a single game, it all degenerates into a flamewar.

The "huge deal" was about the substantially bigger issue of homosexuality in fiction and the attached stigma - a design choice in ME2 isn't really the point anymore.

Am I the only one who doesn't understand the banning of EspirituExterminatus? I mean he did nothing wrong except state opinions and facts, and defend himself against personal attacks by Mother Yeti.

Except, y'know, for all the homophobia. For instance, acting like "including a gay character" means "forcing in a stereotypical flaming gay that annoys everyone". Or that "gay" is a defining character trait that is immediately obvious to everyone. Or the whole "malformed brains" fiasco, or the various straightforward insults that he linked to homosexuality for no particular reason.

Don't get me wrong, the people he was fighting with tended to act pretty stupid too. But it's not particularly difficult to see why the moderators would take issue with him especially.