Sexy Shelob...why? Just why?

[Erttheking]

Seriously though, I'm curious to see a "deal with the devil" scenario where the devil does the "appear as a sexy human" but as a dude. I mean, it maybe happened once in a Hellblazer comic I read, but far more often the unimaginable horrors offering highly costed favors look like Mark Shepherd at best. And not well-groomed Mark Shepherd.

Depends. By "sexy dude" do you mean "designed for 100% raw unmitigated sex appeal" or "handsome snappy dresser"?

If the former, then I've probably seen a few examples. If the latter then that's actually quite common.

I've definitely seen more the suave, snappy dresser, but half the time they're got red skin and horns.

I dunno, maybe I'm got a different conception based on horror comics. Though it being common for dudely devils scores another point in the "man, they use this all the time" argument.

Fallen London/Sunless Sea comes to mind. Devils maintain open diplomacy and trade routes with London. There are demons, but devils, higher up on the totem polls, resemble humans, albeit for glowing red eyes and tears that burn, I'm not kidding. They've more or less industrialized soul deals, with them being regular occurrences. Apparently it's not uncommon for people to take them, because Hell is real and if you don't sell your soul you might end up going to hell anyway, so might as well get some cash. They're pretty sharply dressed for the most part, although when you talk to them you can kinda tell what you're getting into.

Then again, as Zhukov mentioned, creativity is a huge factor in presentation, and Fallen London/Sunless Sea is a blazing star compared to Shadow of War's dying candle. There's a serial killer called Jack o Knives, who it turns out is really a set of cursed knives who turn anyone who picks up one of them into Jack. There's an island called polythreme, where the main export is sentient Clay Men who provide cheap labor, and everything on the island is alive. And I mean EVERYTHING! The walls are alive, the clothes are alive, the WATER is alive. It's actually pretty horrific, candles scream in agony, water begs you to stop while you drink it, beds are slaves, and the King with a Hundred Hearts is at the center of it all. This is without getting into the sentient coral rift who loves chess and badly wants to die because existence as a coral reef is unbearable, the war between rats and guinea pigs (with rifles, armies and everything) the underwater court of the drowned, the coastline that's in the middle of a three way power struggle between London, mongols, and the native talking tigers, and the artificial sun in the far corner of the map, which is probably sentient and wants to kill us all.

I just compare the two games and I want to laugh.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

As for why a giant spider would give a crap to appear human? Her own limitations really. Shelob may be a monster, but she's still smarter than most people. The PC is capable of getting things done that she can't, particularly with those ghost powers his elf buddy has, and he's been shown to have a soft spot in his head when it comes to pretty ladies. It'd be a lot easier to make him do what she wants looking like a sexy witch than a giant spider.

Dear God, how fucking dull.

"So we want to do a chapter where the hero strikes a sort of devil's bargain with an intelligent demon spider."

"Cool. What kind of design are we aiming for with the spider? I'm sure the art team will have a field day with this."

"I'm thinking woman in a dress."

"Oh."

"Hasn't that been done, like, every time someone needs to make a deal with the devil?"

"Shut up Marty"

Seriously though, I'm curious to see a "deal with the devil" scenario where the devil does the "appear as a sexy human" but as a dude. I mean, it maybe happened once in a Hellblazer comic I read, but far more often the unimaginable horrors offering highly costed favors look like Mark Shepherd at best. And not well-groomed Mark Shepherd.

Shin Megami Tensei. Literally EVERY game in the main series.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I seem to recall him appearing as a little boy/ an old wrinkled man in Nocturne. Hardly sexy.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I would've thought the Tolkien purists would be ripping this a new one. Haven't heard much of that happening.

As for why they did it, tits sell.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

The design is derived from the myth of Aracne, she was a beautiful woman who was able to knit with thread and create works more beautiful than the goddess Athena could and through that drew her ire. It resulted in Athena cursing her and turning her into a half-woman half-spider abomination which actually resembles the design we see here quite a bit.


Besides this fact which explains it in an artistic and mythology-based nuance, I also can say that I do not think something having "tits" instantly equates to them being sexy. Even if they're "perfect feminine tits". It's meant to emphasize the contrast by putting a human-looking component side by side to the monstrous parts of the body of the creature, making it revolting and uncomfortable to look at.

This occurs because we have an innate urge to want to look at "perfect feminine tits" which in the context of them being on a body they do not belong in uses that urge and our desire to look at them to makes us sick to our stomach. It is a compelling way of achieving horror.

 

[RaikuFA]

Snip

I seem to recall him appearing as a little boy/ an old wrinkled man in Nocturne. Hardly sexy.

http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Lucifer

Older games had him portrayed as a young man in his 20's. Or as his angel form.

Strange Journey had him look like a older version of Alice.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

The design is derived from the myth of Aracne, she was a beautiful woman who was able to knit with thread and create works more beautiful than the goddess Athena could and through that drew her ire. It resulted in Athena cursing her and turning her into a half-woman half-spider abomination which actually resembles the design we see here quite a bit.


Besides this fact which explains it in an artistic and mythology-based nuance,

It's painfully unoriginal and the myth you're citing was Greek. Middle Earth is based on Northern European myth cycles.

It is a compelling way of achieving horror.

It really isn't. It's just lazy writing. Is it really that important to you that this particular banal decision be considered high art?

I know it's Greek, since I am Greek lol. I think that adding influences from other cultures in games is a good thing, I don't try to stick to one thing and one thing only simply because the majority of the game is based on that one thing. Kinda like how most Final Fantasy stuff is pretty typical Japanese stories but then you have beings such as Tiamat or Quetzalcoatl which stem from various different cultures.

And that's just kinda your opinion in the end there lol.

I don't particularly care either way since I am not a fan but I saw the OP talking about the classic femme-spider we've seen through the eons as though it was a new creation of some kind of weird horn-dog, greedily sticking tits where they do not belong, so I felt compelled to clarify what it actually stemmed from.

 

[Zhukov]

The design is derived from the myth of Aracne, she was a beautiful woman who was able to knit with thread and create works more beautiful than the goddess Athena could and through that drew her ire. It resulted in Athena cursing her and turning her into a half-woman half-spider abomination...

Uhh... every single version of that myth that I've read had Athena turning Arachne into a regular spider.

... which actually resembles the design we see here quite a bit.

No it doesn't. The design we see here is neither a spider nor a half-woman-half-spider abomination. It's just a woman in a dress.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

The design is derived from the myth of Aracne, she was a beautiful woman who was able to knit with thread and create works more beautiful than the goddess Athena could and through that drew her ire. It resulted in Athena cursing her and turning her into a half-woman half-spider abomination...

Uhh... every single version of that myth that I've read had Athena turning Arachne into a regular spider.

... which actually resembles the design we see here quite a bit.

No it doesn't. The design we see here is neither a spider nor a half-woman-half-spider abomination. It's just a woman in a dress.

I'm mostly curious about why we're referencing Ancient Greek mythology in a story set in Tolkien's absurdly detailed world. Given Tolkien's life story, Mata Hari would be a better reference.

So, 5 bucks Shelob sells you out to the antagonist at some point. Wait, no, that's a given. 5 bucks if the Devs bother to actually do something creative and don't have the spider-who-can-inexplicably-turn-into-a-conventionally-attractive-woman inevitably betray you.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

The design is derived from the myth of Aracne, she was a beautiful woman who was able to knit with thread and create works more beautiful than the goddess Athena could and through that drew her ire. It resulted in Athena cursing her and turning her into a half-woman half-spider abomination...

Uhh... every single version of that myth that I've read had Athena turning Arachne into a regular spider.

... which actually resembles the design we see here quite a bit.

No it doesn't. The design we see here is neither a spider nor a half-woman-half-spider abomination. It's just a woman in a dress.

I'm mostly curious about why we're referencing Ancient Greek mythology in a story set in Tolkien's absurdly detailed world. Given Tolkien's life story, Mata Hari would be a better reference.

Tolkien had stated time and again that he did not base LOTR off of his time in war. That's not even getting into the fact that he was yanking bits from a bunch of other mythologies and cultures while making his books. (The elves in particular drew a lot of influence from Celtic foklore.) The idea that he'd pull something from Greek Myths is hardly out there.

Snip

I seem to recall him appearing as a little boy/ an old wrinkled man in Nocturne. Hardly sexy.

Not sexy, but still approachable. You wouldn't expect a little kid or an old man to try and backstab you, and even if they do you'd think you could take them. It's all about getting someone to lower their guard and be willing to trust you. (Plus, given the circumstances of that game, showing up as someone who SHOULDN'T be able to survive in that world but somehow did would at the very least make you inclined to figure out how they managed that.)

For crying out loud, this idea has been a storytelling trope since before the freaking Iliad! The only reason Shelob wouldn't go for, say, an old crone, is because the MC has shown that he has a weak point when it comes to attractive women, and if she took the form of a child, he'd be more interested in getting her out of Mordor entirely!

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Tolkien had stated time and again that he did not base LOTR off of his time in war. That's not even getting into the fact that he was yanking bits from a bunch of other mythologies and cultures while making his books. (The elves in particular drew a lot of influence from Celtic foklore.) The idea that he'd pull something from Greek Myths is hardly out there.

No, he stated time and time again that LotR was not an allegory for WW1 or WW2. But he admitted it influenced him, because obviously. You're not on the front lines during the Battle of the Somme without it leaving some lasting impressions. Industrialization had a big influence too, but LotR isn't an allegory for industrialization either.

And this idea doesn't actually pull anything from the myth of Arachne. Shelob was always a spider. She wasn't punished for her hubris by the gods, she never transformed (and has no canon ability to), and she's got nothing to do with weaving.

Shelob's got as much in common with Arachne as she does with Spider-Man.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

All this talk of sexy Shelob and no one is talking about this?


Ew out of place Cameos...

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Seriously though, I'm curious to see a "deal with the devil" scenario where the devil does the "appear as a sexy human" but as a dude. I mean, it maybe happened once in a Hellblazer comic I read, but far more often the unimaginable horrors offering highly costed favors look like Mark Shepherd at best. And not well-groomed Mark Shepherd.

Personally, I always found Peter Stormare's appearance as the Devil in Constantine to be the definitive "Devil in human form". Stormare manages to strike a fine balance between his natural ham, an affable facade and being really, really creepy.

 

[Erttheking]

The design is derived from the myth of Aracne, she was a beautiful woman who was able to knit with thread and create works more beautiful than the goddess Athena could and through that drew her ire. It resulted in Athena cursing her and turning her into a half-woman half-spider abomination...

Uhh... every single version of that myth that I've read had Athena turning Arachne into a regular spider.

... which actually resembles the design we see here quite a bit.

No it doesn't. The design we see here is neither a spider nor a half-woman-half-spider abomination. It's just a woman in a dress.

I'm mostly curious about why we're referencing Ancient Greek mythology in a story set in Tolkien's absurdly detailed world. Given Tolkien's life story, Mata Hari would be a better reference.

Tolkien had stated time and again that he did not base LOTR off of his time in war. That's not even getting into the fact that he was yanking bits from a bunch of other mythologies and cultures while making his books. (The elves in particular drew a lot of influence from Celtic foklore.) The idea that he'd pull something from Greek Myths is hardly out there.

Snip

I seem to recall him appearing as a little boy/ an old wrinkled man in Nocturne. Hardly sexy.

Not sexy, but still approachable. You wouldn't expect a little kid or an old man to try and backstab you, and even if they do you'd think you could take them. It's all about getting someone to lower their guard and be willing to trust you. (Plus, given the circumstances of that game, showing up as someone who SHOULDN'T be able to survive in that world but somehow did would at the very least make you inclined to figure out how they managed that.)

For crying out loud, this idea has been a storytelling trope since before the freaking Iliad! The only reason Shelob wouldn't go for, say, an old crone, is because the MC has shown that he has a weak point when it comes to attractive women, and if she took the form of a child, he'd be more interested in getting her out of Mordor entirely!

You expect this old man and kid to backstab you. They both look freaking wrong. And you hardly think you can take them when you know supernatural crap is going on, when takes about five minutes to figure out in Nocturne.

I know it's really unoriginal. Oh...MC has a weakness for women...question. One, how? Two, if so, how does Shelob know that? She's not a mind reader. Also all of this is kind of ruined by the fact that Shelob really isn't pretending to be a normal woman, it's like one of those depictions of Lucifer with devil horns and glowing eyes, considering she looks pristine even though she lives in a dirty cave in orc controlled Mordor. He really should know better. Particularly when the Wraith is hammering it in that it's a bad idea. Basically if Talion falls for this, he's one dense ************.

But hey what do I know. I have problems with "female sexuality"

 

[Zhukov]

Basically if Talion falls for this, he's one dense ************.

In the cutscene shown in the trailers she isn't trying to deceive him exactly.

She shows herself in big fuck-off spider form then turns into the black dress chick right in front of him.

 

[Erttheking]

Basically if Talion falls for this, he's one dense ************.

In the cutscene shown in the trailers she isn't trying to deceive him exactly.

She shows herself in big fuck-off spider form then turns into the black dress chick right in front of him.

I'm guessing you and I are in agreement that not only does this show his views pointless this human form is, but how hollow the seduction defense is.

 

[Zhukov]

Basically if Talion falls for this, he's one dense ************.

In the cutscene shown in the trailers she isn't trying to deceive him exactly.

She shows herself in big fuck-off spider form then turns into the black dress chick right in front of him.

I'm guessing you and I are in agreement that not only does this show his views pointless this human form is, but how hollow the seduction defense is.

Hmm, I dunno man. Dude's been single for a quite some time now.

Maybe he's been going dry long enough to still want to stick it in regardless of stray thoughts of mandibles and carapaces.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

You expect this old man and kid to backstab you. They both look freaking wrong. And you hardly think you can take them when you know supernatural crap is going on, when takes about five minutes to figure out in Nocturne.

I know it's really unoriginal. Oh...MC has a weakness for women...question. One, how? Two, if so, how does Shelob know that? She's not a mind reader. Also all of this is kind of ruined by the fact that Shelob really isn't pretending to be a normal woman, it's like one of those depictions of Lucifer with devil horns and glowing eyes, considering she looks pristine even though she lives in a dirty cave in orc controlled Mordor. He really should know better. Particularly when the Wraith is hammering it in that it's a bad idea. Basically if Talion falls for this, he's one dense ************.

But hey what do I know. I have problems with "female sexuality"

Wrong or not, they don't look intimidating which is half the freaking point of the trope. Also, if you're expecting a backstab from a little kid, that's more on you than anything.

As for the second part, first; what do you mean by how? Some people are just stupid like that. It was an issue in the first game too to the point the bloodthirsty elf ghost called him out on it because of how recently Talion lost his Wife and Son. As for how Shelob knows this? Captured and interrogated runaway slaves, just taking a gamble based on what she knows about humans (Talion is not anywhere CLOSE to being unique with this weakness.), kind of a lot of options here.

And yeah, he should know better. Like I said, people can be really stupid with things like this. I mean, you remember the legends of Troy right? An entire city wiped out because a dipwad prince couldn't keep it in his pants.

Heck, for all we know he hasn't fallen for it and is just playing along with her.

And yes, you DO have issues man. I've met freaking NUNS who don't get as bent out of shape or as often about this subject as you do. This game is selling loot crates for the multiplayer that basically lets one pay for progression, and you're griping about needless fanservice in a character. (Really MILD fanservice at that. She's not even showing much, if any cleavage.) You told me to spoiler a series of images when the absolute most they showed was cleavage for crying out loud!

Honestly, I'm not even trying to be mean here. This is just from what I've noticed from our spirited discussions here.

Hmm, I dunno man. Dude's been single for a quite some time now.

Maybe he's been going dry long enough to still want to stick it in regardless of stray thoughts of mandibles and carapaces.

Perhaps he's a leg man?

 

[EternallyBored]

I think everyone might be reading a bit far into the plot for what has been shown so far, we don't really know the exact order of events or most of the what's and whys at this point, although it has been shown that Tallion sees Shelob in spider form so the whole seduction and trickery angle seems mostly moot at this point. Still, it's kind of veering off into assumptions.

As for the Arachne comparison, it's already been pointed out that neither the Tolkien or WB version of Shelob really have anything to do with that legend beyond both involving spiders at some point. The original legends I've seen either involve Arachne being turned into a regular spider or her killing herself and being reborn as a spider. The only time I've seen the term Arachne used for driders or spiderlike creatures or spider women is in anime and video games, which might be where Dreiko is getting the comparison from, Shelob has no real resemblence to Arachne in either appearance or story comparison sense.

In the trope or legendary creature sense, the WB Shelob seems to draw generic inspiration from spider motif characters that follow the man eater trope, whereas Tolkien's Shelob follows the general monster driven by ravenous hunger template. Inspired by female spiders that eat their mates after procreation or just poisonous spiders in general, as well as numerous examples of ancient female monsters that follow the same pattern of luring men to their doom, it's more a case of spiders being attached to old cautionary tales of female man eater monsters than any specific Western legend or creature. It might also be a case of cultural crossover as Japan does have a specific man eater spider legend in the Jorogumo.

In the West I haven't seen female man eater spiders much in fiction until after the Black Widow is discovered and then the association develops that links the larger female spider to a dangerous seductive iconography. Part of this could be because deadly poisonous spiders aren't as common in Europe with various species generally being less dangerous and less Aggressive than African, Australian, or American varieties. The trope in the west involving spider women being sexy in fantasy was also pushed by the popularity of D&D with Driders and the female dominated spider worshipping Drow elves.

Unless I'm mistaken, the spiders as seductresses in the West is more of a 20th century trope pushed by fantasy fiction like D&D and the cross cultural contamination of Japanese media, rather than any sort of European legend that inspired Tolkien. The Norse and northern mythology that Tolkien loved is largely devoid of spider related shenanigans.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

No, they just look creepy as fuck. I mean seriously, would you EVER trust a man that looks like this?

http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/smtn/ess-051.jpg

He looks like a goddamn James Bond villain.

How do you know he has a weakness for attractive women? There was a grand total of two in the first game and one only lasted for five minutes. What, because he was married and has a dead wife he has a weakness for attractive women? That's making Talion out to be an even more one dimensional character than I thought he was, and I thought he was a pretty one dimensional character. And I'm sorry, runaway slaves? I admit it's been awhile since I played Shadow of Mordor, but I missed the part where Talion sat down the escaped slaves and gave them all story time on his tragic backstory. And Shelob can conduct interrogations on top of shape shifting? Sure, why not. Anymore powers you want to give her that blatantly contradict her character? If an escaped slave made his way into Shelob's lair, she wouldn't interrogate him. She's just eat him. I have to say, there's around half a dozen "ifs" we have to go through in order to make this situation halfway plausible, each pushing things further into the absurd than the last. IF Talion has a weakness for women, IF Shelob knew this, IF someone learned about it, IF they made their way into Shelob's cave, and IF she had a means and a desire to get it out of him. Oh, and Shelob doesn't even vaguely look like Talion's wife. If she did, we'd probably get something more like this.

https://youtu.be/5rzCRucQzeY?t=2m19s

There's people being stupid and then there's just being flat out braindead. If Talion falls for this, he's officially in the latter category.

If that's the case, then this can all be officially filed under "a waste of my fucking time." Because what would be the fucking point then?

I'm sure to you, I do. Because I've actually talked to women about sexuality, their sexuality, and they seem to disagree with you on that one. I'll take their views, the views of the actual women who know more about female sexuality than you do, over yours. Then again, they don't seem to equate female sexuality with tits in video games, nor do they seem to think that pointing out female characters are often the victims of tired and cliched writing, on top of mainly being sources of fanservice, is against female sexuality. Hell, they agree with me on my criticisms. The actual women whose sexuality you say I have a problem with. Oh the lootboxes, if only I could care about two things at once, oh wait, I can and I do.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24081181

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24081228

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24081285

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24083122

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24083235

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions#24083271

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.1004674-Middle-Earth-Shadow-of-War-Will-Sell-Loot-Boxes-as-Microtransactions?page=2#24083433

Don't insult my intelligence. More than you already have that is. I'm not so simple that I'm incapable of caring about more than one thing at a time. For the record, me complaining about microtransactions has not stopped me from caring about the vandalized Holocaust memorial in Boston.

It's not about her showing skin. It's about them taking a giant man eating spider and deciding that she needed to be an attractive women that's easy on the eyes. Seriously, how fucking lazy and unimaginative are writers to keep coming up with shit like this? It's a tired and boring cliche, and now they're just going out of their way to crowbar it in, in a situation where it REALLY doesn't make any sense, and you need around fifteen contrivances to make it work. For fuck's sake, games can do better than this kind of hack writing.