Shadow Complex Prompts Difficult Questions

HardRockSamurai

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May 28, 2008
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Boycott Shadow Complex? I hope people realize that people OTHER than Mr. Card are making money from this game, and quite a few of them might actually need it I'd imagine.

If people don't like Mr. Card's ideals, protest HIM, not some video game he sorta helped make.
 

Alex_P

All I really do is threadcrap
Mar 27, 2008
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nicholaxxx said:
I don't think their opinions really matter as long as it doesn't affect their art, and I can't really say anything about us not wanting to discuss stuff like that, because I'm genuinley someone who can brush it off and don't really care. IMO I'm not funding their opinion unless it is plaster on every wall and is very apparent in the subtext of the game
Well, Card's politics are definitely plastered all over the source material (Empire).

-- Alex
 

Simriel

The Count of Monte Cristo
Dec 22, 2008
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Does the game have an anti gay message? If so I wont buy it. If it doesn't it looks awesome I wannit.
 
Feb 13, 2008
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nilcypher said:
Should an artist be held accountable for his personal views, even if those views are not espoused in their art, and why do you think that gamers in general have such a hard time discussing these kinds of issues?
If you ever hold an artist, or anyone, accountable for their personal views, then you deny the world of a gift.

Hitler made some great paintings, Lovecraft was almost every -ist you could think of, Germaine Greer has said she'd remove testicles from all males, Jeremy Clarkson said lorry drivers kill prostitutes...

Look at it this way: Are you going to stop eating soft-scoop icecream because one of the chemists that discovered it shut down England's mines, took us to war over the Falklands and removed milk from schools?

I don't think gamers have a hard time with this idea, I think that the idea of "it's only a game" is the idea. Period.
 

oshin

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Apr 25, 2008
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I agree with the sentiments everybody else here is expressing, its a non issue really. If the game was scott cards gay thumper then it would be definitely be boycott material, but the fact that one artist who worked on game created by many has views that dont seem to mesh with the liberal gamer croud isnt much of a reason to boycott it. Going by that logic you could avoid buying alot of games, just incase somebody on the dev team was a closest neo nazi.

More over, if your worried about your money getting in the hands of unsavory people then maybe you should be more concerned about other things you spend money on. Your taxes probably pay the wages of plenty of people with views you wouldnt like. They also fund armys and arms dealers. The fuel you put in your car could coming from Nigeria, a country where mismanagement and exploitation of resources is rife, leaving the local populace in a terrible state. Money goes around, you can only do so much to stop it from going to people you dont want it to go to.
 

Arkhangelsk

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Mar 1, 2009
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As long as it's not pointing out in the game that gay marriage is wrong, who gives a flying duck turd? A game should be criticised by its own merits, not by its creators. It's like how children are judged and treated in different ways cause what their parents have done.
 

dochmbi

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Sep 15, 2008
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Thanks for the info. I didn't know Orson Scott Card was such an asshole. Here's a quote from him that pretty much sums it up (from wikipedia):

"Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society."

Makes me want to puke. Good thing I never actually bought any of his books, he doesn't deserve my money. (I have read his books, but not bought em, I would never willingly and knowingly give money to a bigot asshole like that)
 

Jhereg42

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Apr 11, 2008
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Personally, I love Card's books. Ender's Game was easily my favorite book in middle school.

That being said, I'm not going to throw away the book because I disagree with him. If he believes that trash then so be it. It's his right. Heck, Hannity and Beck say that and worse on a daily basis. Another of my favorite writers, Steven Brust, is a Trotsky Communist. I don't agree with him either, but I darn well love his books.

As much as you or I may disagree with him, he has a right to believe what he believes. Ignoring a wonderful work like Ender's Game simply because I disagree with him is overly sensitive in my estimation. Shadow Complex should receive the same consideration if it is good.
 

BobisOnlyBob

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Nov 29, 2007
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I'm bisexual, don't believe in marriage as an institution outright (so gay marriage is fine to me, I think it's just as pointless as regular marriage), and read many works of Orson Scott Card, such as Ender's Game and its sequels, and a number of his other works such as Songmaster (which has homosexual themes and even sexual conduct; even if he considered such to be a scene marking the start of a destructive path, he is not hostile to homosexuality).

In short, this is an issue being blown out of proportion. To summarise:

OSC is entitled to his opinion; that homosexuals should not be allowed to marry, as that is a violation of the religious tenets that support marriage. He believes it is a violation of the institution.

Christian Nutt wants to boycott Shadow Complex as it was written partially by OSC. He believes that purchasing a work made by someone who publicly denounces this is condoning them, or at the very least supporting their view. He's entitled to this opinion. He's also entitled to write essays on it and post it to the internet.

I believe they're both wrong. I take the controversial stance that marriage is an outdated and irrelevant institution, its connection to government and tax policies should be absolutely scrapped (as couples usually receive tax benefits over single people), and it thus becomes entirely a church-by-church basis as to whether homosexual marriages are recognised or not. I'm entitled to this opinion, regardless of how outlandish it may seem in light of anyone else's views.

I won't be buying Shadow Complex myself, but that's just because I don't have an Xbox 360 and hadn't actually heard of it until now!
 

dochmbi

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Sep 15, 2008
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I'm going to post this quote again, just to stress that his views are not simply about disallowing gay marriage, but about restricting peoples sexual freedom, i.e. bigotry.


"Laws against homosexual behavior should remain on the books, not to be indiscriminately enforced against anyone who happens to be caught violating them, but to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those who flagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society." (my bold)
 

scnj

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harhol said:
The real issue is why Card was allowed near a game studio in the first place.
Because despite his extreme opinions, Card is an extremely talented writer.
 

Simalacrum

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Apr 17, 2008
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If the person who is opposed to gay marriage has any kind of political influence, then that might make me stop and think before buying the game. (I'm not opposed to gay marriage) however, if its just his opinion and he's not doing anything to try and impose that opinion in law, then I can't see any reason why it can do harm to buy it.
 

Pipotchi

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Resistance205 said:
H.P Lovecraft was a racist, doesn't mean he didn't write amazing books. I have never read Orson Scott Card's books, but as long as the game doesn't go along saying "Shoot him because he's gay" that's alright then.
This is pretty much my reasoning, HP Lovecraft was a notorious antisemite and Edgar Allen Poe was into his necrophilia, and William Golding (lord of the Flies) was an admitted rapist. reprehensible all of it but doesnt mean I am not going to enjoy their literature
 

Terramax

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I didn't buy Crysis for years because I felt it was inciting racial hatred towards the Koreans so, yes, I have boycott a game on political grounds.

I bought it eventually, new for £7 though, so I guess I gave in. The game wasn't that good anyhow.
 

Alex_P

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Mar 27, 2008
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Resistance205 said:
H.P Lovecraft was a racist, doesn't mean he didn't write amazing books.
Which are, however, absolutely suffused with his racist fears and obsessions.

-- Alex
 

scotth266

Wait when did I get a sub
Jan 10, 2009
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I read Ender's Game. It's worth purchasing, regardless of Mr.Card's views on the gay community.

The same would go for Shadow Complex. You don't base your purchasing decision of a product on what the creator's viewpoints on issues are, unless he's actively inserting them into/onto his product.

Let's say that a baker, who is an expert at his craft, is a homophobe. Should I stop buying cakes from him because I don't like his stance on the gay community? No, I shouldn't, not unless he starts putting anti-gay propaganda on his boxes/cakes.
 

dochmbi

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Pipotchi said:
This is pretty much my reasoning, HP Lovecraft was a notorious antisemite and Edgar Allen Poe was into his necrophilia, and William Golding (lord of the Flies) was an admitted rapist. reprehensible all of it but doesnt mean I am not going to enjoy their literature
Necrophilia isn't evil, imo, because you aren't harming anyone (unless relatives find out what you are doing to the corpse, that would cause emotional harm, hence it's evil if you let them find out, and not evil if they don't find out). Antisemitism on the other hand is a form bigotry and is indeed harmful to others = evil.
 

Bored Tomatoe

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So what if Card isn't for Gay Marriage? If it doesn't damage any of his books or the game, then I don't see why I should boycott his works.
 

KingPiccolOwned

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harhol said:
nilcypher said:
Should an artist be held accountable for his personal views, even if those views are not espoused in their art, and why do you think that gamers in general have such a hard time discussing these kinds of issues?
Depends on the views in question. Opposition to gay marriage is inexplicable moronic discrimination, plain and simple, so we should avoid this bigot's "art" at all costs. If personal beliefs endorse harm or discrimination against a specific group, they should not be tolerated.

Gamers in general have a hard time discussing these kinds of issues because a significant percentage are immature idiots who refuse to acknowledge discrimination at any level, even when it's blindingly obvious (see also: Resident Evil 5 debate). The "it's just a game" excuse is, frankly, pathetic.
Perhaps but the game has nothing to do with anti-gay messages. In this case it really is just a game and can't be held accountable by this mans social veiws because they aren't present in it.