Shadow Complex Prompts Difficult Questions

[The_root_of_all_evil]

By not buying Mein Kampf, are you by extension "punishing" the printing press, cover designer, editor, translator, proofreader, publishing house and everyone else who worked on the book? Of course not.

You're not really punishing Hitler either, he's dead.

The real issue is why Card was allowed near a game studio in the first place.

Because last time I checked, Freedom of Speech was still on the American Constitution. Diversity includes all viewpoints, even the ones you don't like.

H.P Lovecraft was a racist, doesn't mean he didn't write amazing books.

Which are, however, absolutely suffused with his racist fears and obsessions.

-- Alex

Also, all his class fears, drug fears, lack of understanding and all the other things that would have been "normal" in his time.

I quite like my history to come without the airbrush, so we don't repeat the same mistakes we made the first time.

People still read Little Red Riding Hood, and there's a whole lotta nasty stuff there. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/reviews/5928-Review-The-Path]

 

[SaintWaldo]

This is similar to issues brought up by the actions and art of Woody Allen, Roman Polanski, and most recently, Michael Jackson. To me, the issue is always the same:


Consuming an artists work is not by necessity support of the views expressed in the art.

Neither is it by necessity support of the creator's non-artistically expressed personal views.

You are only paying for the art. You do not have to be involved in anything but the art.

The tricky part is that the converse also holds true in that:


Consuming an artists work can be argued or explicitly expressed as support of the views expressed in the art.

It can be argued or explicitly expressed as support of the creator's non-artistically expressed personal views.


Thing is, unless you are doing things on the second list, it's no one's concern how or why you spend your time and money. It all depends on how much credence you yourself place on the proposed connection. In other words, it's completely subjective; there is no proof to be had, since we can't read minds and intent and do not have perfect knowledge of events and motivations.

Card expressed his personal opinions, opinions he arrived at through his own reason (however flawed you may color it, you should allow that it is reason at work). The person who chooses to boycott is making a reasonable choice based on a reasonable connection. The person who decides they want to consume the art, because they either don't care about the personal views of the artist or don't accept that purchase of the game is a direct enough support of Card's views to be the same morally, arrives at that conclusion reasonably. The person who buys the game because they expressly agree with Card do so because they accept the action as direct support of the creator's views, and that is also reasonable.

This is the real world. There are no absolutes. Simply choose what you think is reasonable and be prepared to find out how the opposite is also reasonable. This is how politics are born.

 

[fix-the-spade]

What the bejesus?

I have to ask, why is the man's political view such a major issue?
Has he actually done anything that's morally off. I realise his political and probably (definately) homophobic attitude there isn't marvellous. But why should that colour your opinion of his work? Especially if it doesn't show it off overtly in his work.

More importantly why should you punish the other umpteen people who have worked on that game just because of him?


Put it another way, if you tried to boycott the work of someone who was pro same sex marriage, or if the lead designer was gay, you'd get shot to pieces in a storm of righteous internet bullets. I don't see how this is any different, it's just intolerance of others beliefs.

I actually admire his courage to say something he believes in even if it does go against the current moral compass (and my own beliefs for that matter). I'll bet there's plenty of other people who share his opinions, but keep it to themselves. You'll be buying their games quite happily.

 

[Pipotchi]

This is pretty much my reasoning, HP Lovecraft was a notorious antisemite and Edgar Allen Poe was into his necrophilia, and William Golding (lord of the Flies) was an admitted rapist. reprehensible all of it but doesnt mean I am not going to enjoy their literature

Necrophilia isn't evil, imo, because you aren't harming anyone (unless relatives find out what you are doing to the corpse, that would cause emotional harm, hence it's evil if you let them find out, and not evil if they don't find out). Antisemitism on the other hand is a form bigotry and is indeed harmful to others = evil.

True I wouldnt say Necrophilia was evil exactly (though very disturbing) but my point was that I dont agree with it but I still enjoy Poe's works. However if one of his books was a how to manual on said subject then I wouldnt be picking that one up from Waterstones

 

[WarpGhost]

And if I buy a copy of the Quran, does that then mean im a Muslim? And would it matter either way?

If I watch Ben Hur or Planet of the Apes, especially if I commend Charlton Heston's performance, does that mean I'm suddenly a gun nut?

You can acknowledge a person's wider contributions to the world without subscribing to every specific view they might hold. Those two questions I pose are just a couple of the many that can show just how moronically intolerant the 'gay gamer' community is being if they're going to kick up a stink about this. What's there to discuss?

 

[Leroy Frederick]

Depends on whether the person's personal views is extreme (hatred against gays for instance as opposed to against gay marriage) and whether / how those views impact the actual game or support that persons ambitions in their extreme views.

I feel the gay community get overheated and far too intense about everything (bit like PETA) it seems sometimes for my liking. I mean so what if your against gay marriage, that doesn't make you a homophobic or inciting hatred to gay people? It's like saying he's a vegetarian and is therefore against my choice to eat meat so I should boycott his work. I mean, so what. It's just a personal / life choice view, which everyone has a right too last time I checked? Although there seems to be different rules for different groups / subjects these days.

Anyway, you'd be missing out on an excellent game! Now, where did I put that wireless gamepad, hmmm?

 

[Dudeakoff]

Another issue that does more damage to the gay community then good. Not buying someone's work just because he disagrees with you on a single issue, which never shows in their work, is petty. This is fuel for the bigoted view that gays want to suppress freedom of speech.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

I feel the gay community get overheated and far too intense about everything (bit like PETA) it seems sometimes for my liking.

Having chatted to some of them about this idea, most of them think that "if those stupid drama queens just got on with enjoying their freedom instead of complaining about everything under the sun then perhaps we could all get some peace."

Like anything else, it's just the vocal minority.

 

[Alex_P]

Also, all his class fears, drug fears, lack of understanding and all the other things that would have been "normal" in his time.

Lovecraft's not a "normal" example of his age. The sheer terror he feels at encroaching Otherness is just... well, it's rather unique in its form and scale.

I'm not saying "Don't read Lovecraft cuz he's a racist." I am saying "Everything Lovecraft writes is suffused with his racism and it's good to actually recognize that."

-- Alex

 

[Arrers]

do his opinions influecnce the game at all? if not why are people making me feel guilty about wanting to buy a game because someone who didn't even work directly on it has feeling gay marrige which are controversial, to say the least.

 

[delet]

Well, at least he's made some good books. And at least I read them all BEFORE learning he was a prick. I wouldn't be getting Shadow Complex anyway, so I know have another reason to not get it, I guess. Oh well.

 

[Alex_P]

You don't base your purchasing decision of a product on what the creator's viewpoints on issues are, unless he's actively inserting them into/onto his product.

Card does insert his views into every one of his books, though. It's something pretty much all writers do.

Cards' Alvin the Maker books are Joseph Smith apologia with a touch of old-school-Mormon racial essentialism.

His Homecoming series definitely touches his beliefs on homosexuality -- basically you've got a gay character choosing to be straight-and-traditional in order to help save Earth. It also leans very heavily on the Book of Mormon for its imagery and plot.

From what I've heard, Empire (the basis of Shadow Complex) is Tom-Clancy-style chest-thumping about good-guy conservative real-soldiers saving America from idealistic hippie terrorists financed by a thinly-disguised George Soros. It pretends to be "centrist" and even-handed by turning this all into a scheme by the token insufficiently-libertarian Republican bad guy.

And Ender's Game, which gets such acclaim here? That's definitely about Card's beliefs. The centerpiece of the whole think is a "faith-above-works" mentality that puts Ender's innocence above the consequences of his actions. That moral idea is like, the whole point of the first book. The rest of the cycle gets to be more and more directly about Card's faith and moral ideology, of course.

Card may be subtle about it at times -- because, hey, the man actually knows how to write, -- but he's definitely putting a lot of himself into his books. If you don't like him but love his work, I think there's a contradiction there -- time to look more carefully at just what ideas you're getting from his books.

-- Alex

 

[Geoffrey42]

Taken in a different context, should you discriminate as an employer based on your job candidate's political views? As job candidates, I think most of us would say "No, I shouldn't be less considered for a job because of my political beliefs". How is purchasing an economic output that much different? If the work were promoting a particular belief-system, then I could see where there would be basis for a boycott by those that disagree, but that's not what's going on here.

P.S. @ the gents above me talking generally about "the gay community"... PETA is an organization with a specific agenda, a group of people that actively work together, who can be maligned as a collective because they choose to be a collective. "the gay community" is a group of individuals with a particular characteristic, and it's rather thickheaded of you to malign the entire group for the actions and opinions of a few.

 

[razer17]

And I'm sure that someone working on Wolfenstein hates black people, and a art designer from Blizzard doesn't like the Jews. Oh and those behind Final Fantasy hate westerners.

So just in case we should stop buying all games, ever, because someone has views we dont agree with on the dev team.

 

[scnj]

Snip.

I agree that his opinions and views are a major part of his works, but should that stop me from enjoying them? No, I don't agree with every one of his views, but I still find the stories he writes and the worlds he creates fascinating.

 

[level250geek]

Should an artist be held accountable for his personal views, even if those views are not espoused in their art, and why do you think that gamers in general have such a hard time discussing these kinds of issues?

To question one: If we held every artist accountable for their views, whether they be espoused in their art or not, by not patronizing them, then none of us would ever buy anything. No two people agree on any issue 100%. I would rather support good work--and praise those artists who are able to separate their craft from their views, such as Orson Scott Card--than vote with my dollars on every single issue.

To question two: Perhaps it's because gamers tend to be apolitical, stemming from the fact that it doesn't seem like ANYBODY in Washington approves of video games? Perhaps its because video games don't have as much of an effect on public opinion as books and movies do, so it just doesn't seem worth it? I avoid talking about political issues simply because every discussion becomes an argument, unless the crowd is all of the exact same mind set?

I bought Shadow Complex. I knew Card was involved. I support gay rights. I also want developers to make good games, so I buy good games so that they will make more good games.

 

[Triple AD]

I hate cheese, you're a cheese lover. I make you a cup of tea, the process of the tea being made, packed and stocked at the supermarket had nothing to do with my views of cheese. Heck, some of them might even love cheese.

Would you accept my tea?

The exact same dilemma, on a much, much smaller scale.
Seems absolutely ridiculous, doesn't it?

Seriously, as long as his views don't stop people from being gay and enjoying their same-sex relationships does it even matter if he worked on the game or not?

That is exactly the problem at hand except on a smaller scale... Like you said...

The problem is that these people are blaming a group for ONE persons opinion it's a bit silly if you're asking me. People are allowed opinion and from what I've seen there isn't even a subliminal(don't know how to spell it ) reference to how gay marraige is 'bad'

 

[The Random One]

Yes, gay marriage will end democracy, just like it did in the frozen anarchic wastelands formerly know as Canada!

Personally, I think you can enjoy a person's work without sharing their points of view - like the art, not the artist. Nowadays plenty of people are gay for very found of H. P. Lovecraft's work, but he was racist and mysogynist. And wasn't Henry Ford openly anti-semitic, to the point that he received an honor from Nazi Germany before they twirled their mustaches and announced to the world that they were evil? Will you choose your car based on that? (Note: That was a rethorical answer, but try to answer anyway.)

That said, if your disagreement with someone's points of view are stronger than your enjoyment of their art, boycotting it could be a good way to get your point across.

(I don't buy the "it's just a game" defense - gamers are all passionate about saying that video games are the brave new media and people just don't understand its myriad complexities, and then the moment it's the easy way out they all cling to this. Nothing is just a game, or a song, or an image - everything is a picture of everything that lead to it.)

Particularly, I don't get Live and my 360's just been bricked, so fortunately this moral quandary shall elude me.

EDIT: Dammit, the one time I skip two pages' worth of posts and you guys already beat me to Lovecraft.

 

[Cryo84R]

So you'd punish the rest of the development team over one person's views? That hardly seems fair.

Not buying a product isn't "punishing" anyone. This is the same (flawed) logic which equates piracy with lost sales.

By not buying Mein Kampf, are you by extension "punishing" the printing press, cover designer, editor, translator, proofreader, publishing house and everyone else who worked on the book? Of course not.

These guys chose to work on a project which an openly anti-gay author had a major hand in creating. They would have expected the game to be controversial before they even signed up.

The real issue is why Card was allowed near a game studio in the first place.

Because tolerance is only for those that agree with you, right?

 

[ciretower]

I guess if Adolf Hilter had made a game or wrote a book I wouldn't buy it. Even if he was just 1 person out of 100 that was envolved with the game, I still wouldn't buy it. It's their mistake for working with a bigot like Card. I just don't want to support a guy with my dollars, when he promotes hate and discrimination against minority groups.