Shadow Complex Prompts Difficult Questions

[darthzew]

The fuck? So, if a game is made by a guy who supports gay marriage we should all rush out and buy it to support that artist? I think we're seeing a double-standard here.

And, case in point, it's just a game.

 

[Alex_P]

In fact I don't think we should know they are Nazi's to begin with unless you know them on a personal level. Not from the media who has other interests than the truth.

Oh, come now. Card isn't shy about using the "soapbox" that his writerly fame has granted him to spread his belief. He makes public statements. He's on the board of an activist organization. He writes his ideas into his books. The main person who really, really wants you to know that Orson Scott Card is against homosexuality is Orson Scott Card.

-- Alex

 

[squid5580]

In fact I don't think we should know they are Nazi's to begin with unless you know them on a personal level. Not from the media who has other interests than the truth.

Oh, come now. Card isn't shy about using his "soapbox" to spread his belief. He makes public statements. He's on the board of an activist organization. He writes his ideas into his books. The main person who really, really wants you to know that Orson Scott Card is against homosexuality is Orson Scott Card.
-- Alex

Sorry but there are others who want you to know Card is anti gay marriage. If there weren't we wouldn't be having this discussion. If Card makes a public anti gay statement and there is no one there to report it does it make a sound? Or should our jobs depend on our beliefs and views and not on our ability to do said job?

 

[Fire Daemon]

Having read Empire I feel that this game will most likely show Card's political opinions rather than his opinions on gay marriage. I highly doubt there will be a mission were you have to stop two men in mech suits from getting married, or something like that.

I can understand wanting to boycott something because of the opinions of a person that made them but you have to remember that over people also worked on this game. It is possible that they want their game to be sold so that they and their families can eat in the future. I think that if you really want to boycott Orson Scott Card his books should be the ones to be boycotted.

But you know, I don't really care about his opinions. The fact that he is against gay marriage just doesn't matter to me. There are a lot of people opposed to gay marriage and many in favour of it and I think that boycotting someone because of his opinions on the subject is stupid. I mean, imagine the controversies if someone was being boycotted because they want gay marriage in America or maybe because they are gay themselves, the world would be in an uproar. Boycott something on the opposite end of the spectrum because of their opinion and no one cares? Doesn't seem right to me.

 

[keptsimple]

I also don't think the statement is as bigoted as it seems. Not when you factor in his personal religious beliefs. This is the big issue here. If your lifestyle is offensive to my religious beliefs which one of us is right? You (and I don't mean you personally) claim you were born gay. I claim I was born Mormon. Niether one of us claim to have a choice in the matter. You don't agree with my lifestyle. Doesn't that make you just as bigoted when making statements such as "the fact that he is a practicing Mormon is evidence enough of his almost vicious stupidity."

I fail to see how a bigoted belief can be excused simply because it is a religious belief. A belief is a belief. A stupid or, worse, bigoted belief shouldn't be excused simply because someone claims that that belief is commanded by his god. For instance, if someone believes (as Mormons do), that blacks are an inferior race, I fail to see how that bigoted belief is mitigated by the fact that it flows from religion. Bigotry is bigotry.

Furthermore, Card (like any other religious adherent) has a clear choice in what he believes. He could choose to walk away from the Mormon Church's insane and hateful beliefs tomorrow if he chose to. Instead, he continues to repeat anti-gay bigotry and hide behind his religion while doing so. By contrast, a gay person is quite literally born gay.

Additionally, even if being gay were a choice, there is nothing wrong with being a homosexual. Card's beliefs, by comparison, promote bigotry and inequality, which are inherent wrongs.

 

[Alex_P]

If Card makes a public anti gay statement and there is no one there to report it does it make a sound?

They have these things called blogs.
And, again, Card is on the board of an activist organization specifically dedicated to this cause, which issues its own press releases and stuff.

Or should our jobs depend on our beliefs and views and not on our ability to do said job?

When a famous author writes fiction based on his personal views, his "job" isn't meaningfully separable from his beliefs.

Whether you patronize an artist or not should depend on whether you like their art. And I think Card's views taint his work and I'm not afraid to say it. Do you moan that movie critics are taking money away from those poor, hard-working scriptwriters and directors when they say "Don't go see this because it's shit"?

IIRC, Card was commissioned to write Shadow Complex's setting (Empire) as a background fluff novel for a different video game and made it into an anti-liberal screed. Given that I have no interest in this brand of Tom-Clancy-style military-masturbation, I'm not buying Shadow Complex. If Shadow Complex isn't just Tom-Clany-style military masturbation, then I guess they've fucked up their marketing by pinning the game to Empire and Orson Scott Card. Either way, their choice, their loss.

-- Alex

 

[squid5580]

I also don't think the statement is as bigoted as it seems. Not when you factor in his personal religious beliefs. This is the big issue here. If your lifestyle is offensive to my religious beliefs which one of us is right? You (and I don't mean you personally) claim you were born gay. I claim I was born Mormon. Niether one of us claim to have a choice in the matter. You don't agree with my lifestyle. Doesn't that make you just as bigoted when making statements such as "the fact that he is a practicing Mormon is evidence enough of his almost vicious stupidity."

I fail to see how a bigoted belief can be excused simply because it is a religious belief. A belief is a belief. A stupid or, worse, bigoted belief shouldn't be excused simply because someone claims that that belief is commanded by his god. For instance, if someone believes (as Mormons do), that blacks are an inferior race, I fail to see how that bigoted belief is mitigated by the fact that it flows from religion. Bigotry is bigotry.

Furthermore, Card (like any other religious adherent) has a clear choice in what he believes. He could choose to walk away from the Mormon Church's insane and hateful beliefs tomorrow if he chose to. Instead, he continues to repeat anti-gay bigotry and hide behind his religion while doing so. By contrast, a gay person is quite literally born gay.

Additionally, even if being gay were a choice, there is nothing wrong with being a homosexual. Card's beliefs, by comparison, promote bigotry and inequality, which are inherent wrongs.

There is nothing wrong with being a Mormon either. Unless of course you actually believe the whole black people are inferior crap which is exactly what it is. And a gay person has just as much as a choice as a mormon does who you expect to walk away from thier religion. They can abstain from sex altogether. But of course if you are pro gay you are more than entitled to your "right" opinion. Pissing all over anothers religious beliefs, personal beliefs or beliefs in general is OK because you are right and they are wrong. Don't try and look at it from the other side for a second. Don't dare consider the 6000 years of conditioning that marriage is between a man and a woman. Just burn any anti gay at the stake and be done with it.

I would also like to ask how sure are any of you that this is the only game that had someone who is anti-gay marriage or racist didn't work on any other game. Are you absolutely sure everyone at Epic, Bungie and Valve are pro gay non racist vegetarians who have no religious or political views whatsoever. Are you positive that none of them using an internet handle such as yours or mine don't have blogs about the evils of gay marriage. At least he and the Miss America (or was it universe) are willing to stand up and say "I believe this is wrong" just like the millions of others who agree with them but are still in the closet and not willing to show thier face and say it out loud.

Oh since that comes across as very anti gay I will put something out there for the record. I could care less if gay people are allowed to or not get married. What I do care about is the ability to have an open dialogue about it and even if some of them sound batshit crazy (and both sides do at times) that they are protected enough to say it without consequence. Where bullshit like "OMG he is anti gay marriage lets punish not only him but the entire company he works for by boycotting something completely unrelated to the topic" doesn't happen because both sides are smart enough to realize that because one person abuses thier 15 minutes doesn't mean he is speaking for everyone on that side. Or for everyone in that company.

 

[keptsimple]

There is nothing wrong with being a Mormon either. Unless of course you actually believe the whole black people are inferior crap which is exactly what it is. And a gay person has just as much as a choice as a mormon does who you expect to walk away from thier religion. They can abstain from sex altogether. But of course if you are pro gay you are more than entitled to your "right" opinion. Pissing all over anothers religious beliefs, personal beliefs or beliefs in general is OK because you are right and they are wrong. Don't try and look at it from the other side for a second. Don't dare consider the 6000 years of conditioning that marriage is between a man and a woman. Just burn any anti gay at the stake and be done with it.

I would also like to ask how sure are any of you that this is the only game that had someone who is anti-gay marriage or racist didn't work on any other game. Are you absolutely sure everyone at Epic, Bungie and Valve are pro gay non racist vegetarians who have no religious or political views whatsoever. Are you positive that none of them using an internet handle such as yours or mine don't have blogs about the evils of gay marriage. At least he and the Miss America (or was it universe) are willing to stand up and say "I believe this is wrong" just like the millions of others who agree with them but are still in the closet and not willing to show thier face and say it out loud.

Oh since that comes across as very anti gay I will put something out there for the record. I could care less if gay people are allowed to or not get married. What I do care about is the ability to have an open dialogue about it and even if some of them sound batshit crazy (and both sides do at times) that they are protected enough to say it without consequence. Where bullshit like "OMG he is anti gay marriage lets punish not only him but the entire company he works for by boycotting something completely unrelated to the topic" doesn't happen because both sides are smart enough to realize that because one person abuses thier 15 minutes doesn't mean he is speaking for everyone on that side. Or for everyone in that company.

I don't want to get into a flame war here. And I apologize if my previous posts were a bit shrill in tone. I'm going to limit my reply to two points.

First, I'd like to point out that, as I noted in my original response, I am not promoting a boycott of Shadow Complex. In fact, I've already purchased the game. The reason is precisely the reason you cite in your second paragraph above. In almost any game, there is almost certainly some type of bigot who worked on the production. Card's role in the game appeared to be too tangential to justify a boycott. Had he been a major presence in the game, however, I might have considered a boycott.

Second, I'm just going to reaffirm my position that people should be held accountable by others for their beliefs, religious or otherwise. A person certainly has the right to be anti-gay, whether for religious or other reasons. But I also have the right to condemn such beliefs. The First Amendment protects people from being punished or silenced by the government for expressing their opinions or holding a particular religious belief. The First Amendment does not, however, protect people from being criticized or boycotted or protested by other private citizens. Nor should it. The freedom to speak includes the freedom to boycott. Card is free to express his views. But he must also accept the consequences if other private citizens find his views loathsome. I may not be boycotting Shadow Complex, but I would certainly never buy a Card novel.

 

[squid5580]

There is nothing wrong with being a Mormon either. Unless of course you actually believe the whole black people are inferior crap which is exactly what it is. And a gay person has just as much as a choice as a mormon does who you expect to walk away from thier religion. They can abstain from sex altogether. But of course if you are pro gay you are more than entitled to your "right" opinion. Pissing all over anothers religious beliefs, personal beliefs or beliefs in general is OK because you are right and they are wrong. Don't try and look at it from the other side for a second. Don't dare consider the 6000 years of conditioning that marriage is between a man and a woman. Just burn any anti gay at the stake and be done with it.

I would also like to ask how sure are any of you that this is the only game that had someone who is anti-gay marriage or racist didn't work on any other game. Are you absolutely sure everyone at Epic, Bungie and Valve are pro gay non racist vegetarians who have no religious or political views whatsoever. Are you positive that none of them using an internet handle such as yours or mine don't have blogs about the evils of gay marriage. At least he and the Miss America (or was it universe) are willing to stand up and say "I believe this is wrong" just like the millions of others who agree with them but are still in the closet and not willing to show thier face and say it out loud.

Oh since that comes across as very anti gay I will put something out there for the record. I could care less if gay people are allowed to or not get married. What I do care about is the ability to have an open dialogue about it and even if some of them sound batshit crazy (and both sides do at times) that they are protected enough to say it without consequence. Where bullshit like "OMG he is anti gay marriage lets punish not only him but the entire company he works for by boycotting something completely unrelated to the topic" doesn't happen because both sides are smart enough to realize that because one person abuses thier 15 minutes doesn't mean he is speaking for everyone on that side. Or for everyone in that company.

I don't want to get into a flame war here. And I apologize if my previous posts were a bit shrill in tone. I'm going to limit my reply to two points.

First, I'd like to point out that, as I noted in my original response, I am not promoting a boycott of Shadow Complex. In fact, I've already purchased the game. The reason is precisely the reason you cite in your second paragraph above. In almost any game, there is almost certainly some type of bigot who worked on the production. Card's role in the game appeared to be too tangential to justify a boycott. Had he been a major presence in the game, however, I might have considered a boycott.

Second, I'm just going to reaffirm my position that people should be held accountable by others for their beliefs, religious or otherwise. A person certainly has the right to be anti-gay, whether for religious or other reasons. But I also have the right to condemn such beliefs. The First Amendment protects people from being punished or silenced by the government for expressing their opinions or holding a particular religious belief. The First Amendment does not, however, protect people from being criticized or boycotted or protested by other private citizens. Nor should it. The freedom to speak includes the freedom to boycott. Card is free to express his views. But he must also accept the consequences if other private citizens find his views loathsome. I may not be boycotting Shadow Complex, but I would certainly never buy a Card novel.

And this is where I see the disconnect. I understand both sides are very passionate about thier views. What I don't understand is the stupidity that follows the passion. It seems like the pro gay expect 6000 years of tradition to be overturned at the snap of a finger and everyone lives happily ever after. And when that didn't happen instead of addressing the issue upfront they are now resorting to stupid tactics that at the end of the day won't do jack except turn those undecided more towards the anti side than the pro. I can understand not buying a Card novel especially if you don't believe in his religious views and his stance on this issue. There is a big difference between not buying and calling for a boycott though. To me it is all about respect. Pure and simple respect from both sides. Card has enough respect for the other side he is open and upfront about his views. And instead of the other side attempting to engage in an open and frank discussion they rely on dirty tactics such as this when the bottom line is Shadow Complex has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Ya know it almost seems like the pro side wants a country all to themselves. So they can be self sustaining homosexual society. That way they will never have to worry that the carrot they are thinking about buying wasn't grown by some homophobic farmer who thinks gay marriage will doom us all. Sure it isn't what is said but it feels like that is what they are saying.

 

[Brett Alex]

It seems like the pro gay expect 6000 years of tradition to be overturned at the snap of a finger and everyone lives happily ever after.

Could satanists, agnostics, and die-hard religion hating atheists get married 6000 years ago?

 

[squid5580]

It seems like the pro gay expect 6000 years of tradition to be overturned at the snap of a finger and everyone lives happily ever after.

Could satanists, agnostics, and die-hard religion hating atheists get married 6000 years ago?

Did they want to? You know that whole religious aspect of it and all. The very thing everyone you listed would be against in the first place. Or are you assuming marriage was a government and religious institution back then?

 

[Brett Alex]

It seems like the pro gay expect 6000 years of tradition to be overturned at the snap of a finger and everyone lives happily ever after.

Could satanists, agnostics, and die-hard religion hating atheists get married 6000 years ago?

Did they want to? You know that whole religious aspect of it and all. The very thing everyone you listed would be against in the first place. Or are you assuming marriage was a government and religious institution back then?

They couldn't back then, but they can now, can't they? Don't you think thats just as much a slight against god, as much ruining the sanctity of marriage as gay marriage would be?

 

[deleted_scifidownbeat]

DELETED

 

[squid5580]

It seems like the pro gay expect 6000 years of tradition to be overturned at the snap of a finger and everyone lives happily ever after.

Could satanists, agnostics, and die-hard religion hating atheists get married 6000 years ago?

Did they want to? You know that whole religious aspect of it and all. The very thing everyone you listed would be against in the first place. Or are you assuming marriage was a government and religious institution back then?

They couldn't back then, but they can now, can't they? Don't you think thats just as much a slight against god, as much ruining the sanctity of marriage as gay marriage would be?

I probably would if I wasn't an aethiest. Although again would any of these groups be interested in being married in the eyes of God? I am sure if a practicing satanist walked into a church and walked up to the pastor or priest and said "hail Satan would you marry us?" they would be told NO!. The thing of it is there isn't a religious quiz before marriage. You don't know what religious beliefs are of the people getting married. It is a bit harder to hide the fact that you are marrying a person of the same sex.

 

[Motiv_]

Here's a question for you, would you buy a game if one of the people involved in it was an outspoken opponent of something you really believed in?

To me, and this is just my opinion, that's just like refusing to accept a cure for cancer just because the creator of the cure is a communist, or because he's Arab. It's just stupid. As long as there are no anti gay messages in the game, you should enjoy it regardless.

 

[timmytom1]

I`d boycott it simply because the plot (considering this is the work of a supposed professional writer,or at least i think he`s meant to be one)is jingoistic shit i mean

Spoiler

the protagonist is completely played into doing the US governments bidding. And he`s completely fine with being a subservient tool (there`s even a chiling remark he makes "killing`s getting easier ,not sure if that`s bad or good .*moments pause*It`s good")

if that happend to me i`d go apeshit frankly

 

[Woodsey]

Well that Kabotick guy in Activision is a complete twat but everyone's still gonna buy MW2 aren't they? Including moi so whatever.

If it was created by the leader of the BNP (AKA The Nazis Mark 2) or some of the other c*nts in that party then I'd think twice.

And I really don't know what the guy from Activision is called.

 

[TheScarecrow]

Does this remind anyone else of the "thing" surrounding RE5 and the enemies being black?

On topic, if the game is good I'll buy it no matter what this Orsen fellow says.

 

[DayDark]

If he wasn't such an activist about it, I probably wouldn't be bothered about it, but I'm pretty sure I wont be buying the game, the game looks great though.