Silly Girls

[Doug]

So long as 'tween' girls buy Twilight "novels" and rave about how good it is, and at the same time 'tween' boys think guk like XXX is cool, I have no doubt that the stupid market will continue to exist. And my faith in the next generation died the day the 'crazy frog' ring tone came out.

ANYWHO, onto the article itself - Read's well, although I can't really comment much on the territory that is, frankly, a marshy minefield for us lads. All seems to make sense and all.

Ah, what's that I hear? That these games "perpetuate negative stereotypes"? Which stereotypes would these be, exactly?

Well, I've not played this games for several obvious reasons (including wanting to avoid seeing bits of my brain dribble out of my nose as it dissolves slowly), but I suspect they might be refering to the unrealistic body types of size zero's with size EE breasts. Although hell knows why they aren't up in arms about the negative male stereotypes - seriously, biceps bigger than their heads!

 

[shMerker]

some how i could imagine a woman wearing the power armor

That must have been very difficult to imagine [http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z225/JulioKiller/SamusAran.jpg].

On a more serious note, I find it kind of depressing that we're even still talking about this. If you don't understand why games like this are being made, answer me this: Did you buy every game that came out last year? It's risky and potentially downright irresponsible to direct all your efforts toward selling to existing customers.

If you make a game that appeals to me you have a slim chance of selling it since you will have to be more appealing than 99% of the titles available to me. If you make something that appeals you someone who doesn't normally play video games, your chances skyrocket, because they weren't going to buy one of the other games anyway, and there isn't really much else that you have to compete with.

Furthermore, this has been going on for decades. Video games based on Barbie, a property exceedingly unpopular with the male demographic, have been coming out since the NES was hot. Guess what? My sisters both loved Barbie dolls when they were younger. The idea of a game with Barbie was as appealing to them as a game based on Transformers (Which, of course, is the pinnacle of human culture) was to me. This is to say nothing of all the girl-oriented toys and games that have been made outside of video games. Are you going to start complaining about easy bake ovens and Mystery Date too?

And before you start saying something about soulless companies cashing in on the unsuspecting public, let me ask: Is there something so wrong with wanting to make a game that people will play, and conversely wanting people to play the game that you've made? It's even possible, and I know this is pushing the limits of feasibility, that some of the people who worked on all these girl-centric games have identified with the subject matter and wanted to share their enjoyment with the next generation.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

The simple truth is that young girls like stupid things. They like shopping and makeup and boys and ponies and glitter and The Jonas Brothers and a whole legion of other things that will make you feel like your brain is dissolving if you think about them for too long.

While boys like sensible things like Action Men and guns and pulling girls hair and explosions and Megan Fox.

Hold on...I see what you did there...

Personally, I had a blast playing the Sailor Moon RPG and Cooking Mama. The only reason I won't touch The Sims is that I know how addicted I get.

While the female leads are admittedly fewer than the males, there are also the inhuman/ungendered leads that make up a LOT of the games today which are never mentioned. And the female leads get a LOT more exposure, look at the marketing for Chun Li versus Akuma.

When we stop these silly ideas about who needs what, then we'll have a group of people loving their games without reference to outmoded concepts like gender labelling.

If I want to rescue a princess, fine. If I want to be the princess rescuing the prince, fine. Just let me (and everyone else) play

 

[iblis666]

http://www.frsa.com/pixfemuscle/MariannaKomlos.jpg

some how i could imagine a woman wearing the power armor

Some_how I can see the marketing team doing a group suicide.

what your telling me you wouldnt play a game with a bad ass female commando damn id be all over that like white on rice

That must have been very difficult to imagine [http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z225/JulioKiller/SamusAran.jpg].

glad some one understands

 

[Tears of Blood]

First of all, I didn't even read the whole article because I felt like the writer was yelling at me, and I don't even hold the opinion she is calling bullshit.

Second, it's not just that most games are targeted towards males, but that games have always been a dominantly male passtime. What girl wants to play a game about fashion and other girly stuff when she can just as easily do that in real-life with far more freedom than a game could ever offer? To be quite honest, books are romance movies are more the niche of women. They can live out their feminine fantasies through that. Men, however, are more keen on what can be depicted in a game.

I'm not saying "don't make games for girls." I mean, look at The Sims. That has a large fanbase of females. However, I'm saying that it's really difficult to do things like The Sims did and make a game that's marketable to girls.

Oh, and lastly...

I don't know if the writer will ever read this, but if you do...

Would you mind not acting like a total git? Yahtzee can get away with it because he's charismatic and funny. You, however, just come off as offensive and rude.

 

[sheic99]

I mean, there's no reason why Gordon Freeman had to be a guy, after all, he could've just as easily been Brenda Freeman, but that's a debate for a different day

That's a simple answer, Brenda Freeman would look weird with a goatee.

 

[Kojiro ftt]

I think the same goes the other way: video games tell boys that they can only be gruff, moody anti-heroes. Or, in the case of Japanese games, an effeminate cross dresser. Or in the case of black men... Cole Train! Choo-Choo!!

 

[Cousin_IT]

Difference between Cooking Mama & Science Papa is Cooking Mama is not just a cynical attempt by Activision to cash in on another companies successful franchise by giving their game a similar sounding name.

 

[LewsTherin]

some how i could imagine a woman wearing the power armor

That must have been very difficult to imagine [http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z225/JulioKiller/SamusAran.jpg].

Very much so. [http://www.fantasyshop.gr/gallery/40k-Witch%20Hunters-Pic%201.jpg]

Really, I think the fact that these type of games continue to be made is that they continue to sell. There is a market for them, and as long as there is a market, they will continue to proliferate.

It all goes back to the old if you don't like it, don't buy it.

 

[BloodRed Pixel]

First of all, I didn't even read the whole article because I felt like the writer was yelling at me, and I don't even hold the opinion she is calling bullshit.

Second, it's not just that most games are targeted towards males, but that games have always been a dominantly male passtime. What girl wants to play a game about fashion and other girly stuff when she can just as easily do that in real-life with far more freedom than a game could ever offer? To be quite honest, books are romance movies are more the niche of women. They can live out their feminine fantasies through that. Men, however, are more keen on what can be depicted in a game.

I'm not saying "don't make games for girls." I mean, look at The Sims. That has a large fanbase of females. However, I'm saying that it's really difficult to do things like The Sims did and make a game that's marketable to girls.

Oh, and lastly...

I don't know if the writer will ever read this, but if you do...

Would you mind not acting like a total git? Yahtzee can get away with it because he's charismatic and funny. You, however, just come off as offensive and rude.

couldn´t have said it better.

 

[Sara Grimes]

I love this article. Girl games suffer from the same ostracization as most other forms of "girl culture" - whether its princess parties and My Little Pony, or the daring girls who have the nerve to join the dirt biking team, there's always someone around just waiting to point out how "wrong" it is. Though in defense of Tracey John's article, that shouldn't mean that we can't hold them to the same standards as any other game... in terms of subjecting them to critique, analysis and discussion, as well as demanding the same levels of variety, innovation, immersion, good storylines, characters, etc. etc. as any other genre. John points out a pretty important aspect of this "new wave" of girl games - they mostly all revolve around the same three or four themes, contributing to the ongoing (though admittedly quite *sparkly*) cluttering of a market that seems to be growing despite these games rather than because of them.

My beef with this new spurt of girl games isn't that they exist - I agree with Susan that they should if there's a demand for them, but that they're taking shelf space (and development efforts) away from other genres that might do a bit better at filling the substantial gap that still exists within the girls' games market. Girls play online games WAY more than console games (90%+ vs. 28%, e.g. http://gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=87579), and I'm pretty sure that Stardoll, BarbieGirls and The Sims aren't the only titles capturing their attention (Runescape, Club Penguin, and Free Realms are all extremely popular among girl gamers as well). When it comes to console games, Guitar Hero and Wii Sports rank way up there on girls' lists of their favourite games. I wish the industry would start looking toward girls' actual gaming habits rather than simply reproducing the same old themes that already dominate both the girls' toy aisle (a suffering market as girls now abandon their toys and dolls at younger and younger ages) AND the girls' games shelf.

If the industry is ever going to build more significant and sustainable inroads into the ever-elusive "girls market" they're going to have to add a few more tricks to their dog and pony show (hmm...dogs and ponies sounds like the premise for a new Ubisoft Imagine title). Maybe start by taking all those games that girl gamers already like and then actively market them to other, non-gamer girls? Even if it means that maybe some boys somewhere might see the game being advertised to girls? Even at the risk of associating that game with, *gasp*, girl culture? Would that really be so detrimental to sales figures? Would boys really abandon Guitar Hero just because they saw an ad during Spongebob that featured some girl players and a female voice-over?

Or maybe by finally taking a chance on "Science Mama", realizing that expanding into new markets is never risk-free, and that yet another "Princess Secret Crush" game is just as likely to tank as it is to sell? I mean, how many of these girl games have totally and utterly failed? And how many awesome and innovative girls games have been buried and left for dead by a market that emphasizes same-ness above (and to the detriment of) all else? Thomas mentions this in her blurb on The Daring Game for Girls: "Like the book, the game offers handy tips and facts as well as non-stereotypically female activities, encouraging girls to seek adventure ? not boyfriends or cute clothes, for once. So, of course, no one will actually play it." Tell that to Her Interactive, makers of the extremely popular Nancy Drew games (http://www.herinteractive.com/press-release.php?id=9). There's so much untapped and unchanneled potential out there, yet all the industry's powerhouses (EA, Ubisoft, etc.) seem to be able to come up with is more of the same. And when a "different" game does somehow manage to get through, they fail to promote it, thereby letting the "market" "prove" there's no room for innovation.

Or maybe by realizing that girls aren't going to be drawn into gaming as a lifelong passion by themes and characters alone (although they are important). Design is so key to attracting new players...intuitive controls, rich environments and, of course, accessibility. The really sad thing about many of the girl games currently on the market - [and I know I'm going to get some negative responses from this, but here goes] - is how poorly they're designed. Clunky, buggy, overly-restrictive, with limited customizability and very low re-playability. Too much endless grinding at repetitive, mostly mindless (and buggy!) mini-games that have little or no relationship with the larger game. And this has been a shockingly pervasive feature of girl games ever since the first wave happened in the mid-1990s. There are of course a number of well designed, innovative titles as well, but these are way too few and far between. I anticipate that most of the titles in this newest batch will reproduce the norm, not the exception.

All of which really makes me wonder...who and what is this niche really for anyway?

 

[Taniquel]

I understand why many people think that "girl games" are stupid; once you are mature enough, many things that you liked in the past are "dumb". I fail to understand why the "boy games" are not being included in this article/rant. What about all of the Lego games? Don't those qualify?

Furthermore, I fail to see the issue between having a male vs. female protagonist. Who cares if the game is good? I personally do not give a rat's behind if I am playing a male or female; I am confident enough in my double X's that I do not need to be defined by my game's characters.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

The simple truth is that young girls like stupid things. They like shopping and makeup and boys and ponies and glitter and The Jonas Brothers and a whole legion of other things that will make you feel like your brain is dissolving if you think about them for too long.

My problem is ths apparent failure to acknowledge that the things young boys like are stupid. Things like robots and army men and running around going "pew!pew!" and shooting things and screaming metal music.

Oh wait... [and wait again, because of course Root made this point already, but it bear repeating.]

There is nothing more inherently intelligent in shooting than shopping, and yet somehow only one of them gets labeled as "dumb." This is a pattern throughout the gaming industry, where things that guys like are considered the standard by which all other activities are measured. I notice that the term "casual" gaming is inevitably attached to games that are played mostly by women, even when there is hardly anything casual about it. If my female roommate spends more hours playing Zuma than I do playing Halo, with the stated intent of beating the game (NOT an easy thing to do), how is her playing somehow more casual than mine? If she spent more time finishing Myst than I did finishing Fable, why isn't she the "hardcore" gamer in the household?

Of course, since girl stuff is dumb, then might as well give them a dumb game about it, right? And if girls don't really play games, there's not much point to putting any serious development into them, right? The idiocy of this is, of course, that game studios that think like this are shrugging themselves out of half their potential customer base. Well, we have never really figured out what girls like, so the games are never successful. I see. I wonder if hiring women developers might help with that a little bit?

I agree that it's important to fight for the right to be silly, to like pink and being pretty. Really, though, what I want is for these elements to stop being so polarized. I want girls to be able to play silly pink games without being disrespected for it, and beyond that, I want guys to be able to play silly pink games without being disrespected for it. Femininity is not shameful (in either sex). Playing a game that came in a pink box with a girl on the cover will not give the player cooties. Making the world safe for girl gamers is good. Making the world safe for girly gamers is better.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

Speaking as a guy who gets schooled regularly in multiple areas by friends who take pleasure in the color of their nails as they whoop me in games, will go on hiking trips of +100 miles over mountains in the period of a few days, I can say that there's a lot more dichotomy that what's stereotyped. Same girls actually painted their nails on the summit of a mountain after we took the time to set up camp, while waiting for dinner to cook. One of them let me borrow both cooking mama and Super Princess Peach--both phenomenal games, good gameplay, and a reasonable label as a girl game. No reason to assume that just because they like one, they don't like the others, they're not mutually exclusive things.

 

[cobra_ky]

Maybe that's just me, but it seems like that sort of armor would have to be heavily modified to the point of actually wrapping around the woman's body and directly fitting the breasts and whatnot so that you'd be able to tell she was female at all. I don't mean this in an insulting way, because, by all means, women are perfectly capable of wearing power armor. It's just that power armor is usually BUILT in a way that it accentuates the fact that the guy wearing it is REALLY BUFF. That wouldn't fit well on a female, it would just look awkward, and if they built it in a way that accentuates the fact that she's female, the guys who made the game would get yelled at by annoyed people everywhere for the girls having breasts that are overly large(because we all know how most game designers are.)

Point is, we have to draw a line somewhere between male leads and female leads. While the whole both genders thing would be great in many games, it just wouldn't work in quite a few.

the XBOX version of DOA4 had a female Spartan in it. aside from the voice acting she was indistinguishable from master chief.

you're right about gears of war, but that's only because the character design in gears is such a gross caricature of masculine physique.

 

[SquirrelPants]

Maybe that's just me, but it seems like that sort of armor would have to be heavily modified to the point of actually wrapping around the woman's body and directly fitting the breasts and whatnot so that you'd be able to tell she was female at all. I don't mean this in an insulting way, because, by all means, women are perfectly capable of wearing power armor. It's just that power armor is usually BUILT in a way that it accentuates the fact that the guy wearing it is REALLY BUFF. That wouldn't fit well on a female, it would just look awkward, and if they built it in a way that accentuates the fact that she's female, the guys who made the game would get yelled at by annoyed people everywhere for the girls having breasts that are overly large(because we all know how most game designers are.)

Point is, we have to draw a line somewhere between male leads and female leads. While the whole both genders thing would be great in many games, it just wouldn't work in quite a few.

the XBOX version of DOA4 had a female Spartan in it. aside from the voice acting she was indistinguishable from master chief.

you're about gears of war, but that's only because the character design in gears is such a gross caricature of masculine physique.

Well yes, I know. That's why I said 'certain games' rather than all of them. I would prefer if, unlike Halo, there was actually a difference between the two.It would make sense if there was, wouldn't it?

 

[hebdomad]

Now why don't we just masculinise all the dress up games, and feminise all the action games.

Then we will all be equal and genderless.

There is a whole section of the feminist movement that is against anything feminine, its quite self destructive really. Why can't these women just celebrate what makes them different from men? Nothing wrong with been a girly girl.

 

[UsefulPlayer 1]

I'm just gonna say that the whole gaming audience isn't exactly the most mature or even respectable audience.

I mean we can all say Zoey was pretty cool from the L4D series right? Strong respectable female character?
Look what happen to her...

If there is going to be a Brenda Freeman, hopefully she be another Samus, not another DOA chick.

 

[whaleswiththumbs]

I'm alittle confused on this article...
Are you saying the games for girls is spot-on with it's audience, and that it should be widened, or simply that it could be?

 

[deleted_scifidownbeat]

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