Silly Girls

Xanadu84

New member
Apr 9, 2008
2,946
0
0
I just want to point out that, "Let the player choose the gender" isn't always good for the storytelling. "The Path" wouldn't be as good as it is without an all female cast, and certain testosterone soaked characters (Evil Dead comes to mind) would feel artificial and forced if they were female. In the same way that there should be violent games, but more innovation that allows for games which are not violent, there should still be games that appeal to, "Silly Girls", but also games that appeal to girls that exist outside of the stereotype.
 

teknoarcanist

New member
Jun 9, 2008
916
0
0
Speaking as a writer, I think one problem stems from this bullshit about trying to create 'strong female characters'. That gives us men with boobs, or the standard female roles ("I just want to protect my child!"). That gives us Tomb Raider, and Heavenly Sword, and a number of other examples of "LOOK THEY ARE RIDDLED WITH TESTOSTERONE ALSO ISN'T THAT IMPRESSIVE AS ALL HELL?!?!"
The real challenge comes in creating a strong character...who is a female.
And considering that most games have difficulty accomplishing the former, the latter doesn't stand much of a chance.
 

HobbesMkii

Hold Me Closer Tony Danza
Jun 7, 2008
856
0
0
I'm not sure I quite grasp what's at stake here. I read the article, but then I read the comments, and I feel like somewhere along the line the point I got from the article disappeared and people started to respond to something completely different. So anything I say might be totally off base.

I own a fully functioning penis, so my vote might count for naught, and that's perfectly alright, but I'll offer up my opinion on this article.

I think you're on the money (if this what I think is correct). The message being sent is largely "Learn to cook and be attractive, and do nothing else." This isn't videogames fault in general, this is pretty much a group effort by all of society. It's been that way for years, then there was brief period where people fought against it, and then the Equal Rights Amendment failed, and now we claim to have fixed the problem, along with racism, but we also tell people "feminist" is a dirty word.

I also feel that videogames do have some effect on shaping people's behavior, or at least, their dispensation towards certain behavior. This includes violence. I'm not saying videogames make us killers, but, like action movies, they do glorify violence and as viewers, we glorify in return, in large part because there don't exist games that come at it from any other angle. So I do postulate that these games may have some detrimental effect on some women's self-esteem in a few years down the line. I recognize that I may be in the minority on this, but look how many people claim Ayn Rand changed their world outlook. And that's a book. Why can't a game do something similar?

The trouble, though, it really seems to me, is not solely that these games have set a narrow range of standards for women. The trouble is that they also suck. Barbie Horse Adventures has been called the worst game of all time. I think a lot of these ideas would dissipate and we would see a healthier range of character if developers spent some time making these games and creating some sort of story behind it, one where their characters might have to emote beyond the old "I exude sex (and I can cook)." But instead, game developers have cranked these suckers out in order to make them quick and cost effective. Imagine if they'd spent Blizzard-esque time developing BHA. I'll bet it'd be a great game. I'll bet Barbie would look a lot different, and have better lines. But instead, we got crap that perpetuates more crap.
 

BoxCutter

New member
Jul 3, 2009
1,141
0
0
I vaguely remember discussing this in a thread a couple days ago.

It's like the twilight zone in here.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.124688?page=1
 

RicoADF

Welcome back Commander
Jun 2, 2009
3,147
0
0
Sara Grimes said:
All of which really makes me wonder...who and what is this niche really for anyway?
I've always considered those sort of games as ones for kids (girls obviously lol) that like to dream about such things etc, not that I've ever cared about them or looked at them anymore than a glance pass as I look for GTAIV :p
 

Kuchinawa212

New member
Apr 23, 2009
5,408
0
0
If they shoot at me, I don't care what sex they are. The shot at me! I'm shooting back.
Yeah one girl cussed me out after a game of Halo 3. I only killed her 7 times. why? She couldn't lead a target if her life depended on it. and never used cover Just took her down at range
 

mszv

New member
May 5, 2009
11
0
0
I don't understand why blasting someone with a machine gun is considered mature gameplay, but cooking or anything to do with fashion is not. Is it because there is a weapon?

Look, I like casting my spells, wacking a sword and fighting the undead as much as the next person (not into guns), but it doesn't strike me as a higher form of gameplay than cooking or shopping. It happens that the game industry is such that there's generally more money, more work, and more skilled people going to making games where what you do is engage in combat. That's because they found a market for said games. So you've got bigger games, often beautiful, with more variety, and sometimes, if you are lucky, a decent story and characters. People such as myself who aren't really big on combat as a form of gameplay play these games because that's what's out there.

I do tend to like the notion of heroic quests, and interesting settings. I don't play adventure games much anymore, but I love some of the settings - conspiracy theory, ancient mystery sort of thing you see in some games. So, I fumble along with the gameplay in those games because that's what you do in the games.

On simulation games - I can't see how flying a plane is somehow better than making a nice outfit. Right now we put all our gameplay into restricted little boxes and never mix it up. It's interesting how Free Realms mixes it up - let's see - an MMO where you can fight monsters and get good at cooking! I like that.

And yes - as the person who posted before me said, and I'm paraphrasing - don't think that one thing implies another. They way I would put it - just because a guy plays sports games doesn't mean he won't like going to a play. Just because a women plays Super Princess Peach doesn't mean she doesn't like basketball.
 

Ignignokt

New member
May 7, 2009
100
0
0
Lord_Ascendant said:
This coming from a person who played ... Mass Effect... as a girl becuase he felt like throwing a stick into the gears and being a girl for a change.
I was wondering about that. If you play Mass Effect as a girl, is the love story with that Kaiden guy, or does Ashley become a lesbian?
 

coldfrog

Can you feel around inside?
Dec 22, 2008
1,320
0
0
Great article except for the part where you implied liking ponies was stupid.

Or is it only OK if guys like ponies? DOUBLE STANDARD!
 

SenseOfTumour

New member
Jul 11, 2008
4,514
0
0
Surely its ok that there's games for girls, if it's the middle step that gets them interested, then maybe they'll move on to all the games that are also for girls...they just happen to be for guys too.

Some women also like action movies, sports, and guns.
 

Mrsoupcup

New member
Jan 13, 2009
3,487
0
0
FloodOne said:
Final Fantasy XIII has a female protagonist.

So did Final Fantasy VI.

Final Fantasy X had a lead female who wasn't sexed up, and was ready to make the ultimate sacrifice for the people of her world. That's a pretty positive step.

Those aren't games that are marketed to girls though, so I don't know who you would hold responsible in those instances.
I don't think anime games make good examples.... Since girls are almost entirely shown as sluts/ welll... Sluts. (I don't watch anime but I have seen enough to know its a wierd form of soft core porn)
 

Sparrow

New member
Feb 22, 2009
6,848
0
0
Susan's article said:
I don't want to hear about how that mucks around with the storyline, either, because Mass Effect and Fable 2 both pulled it off just fine.
Your missing the point. Fable II and Mass Effect were revolved around a certain amount of freedom. It was about making your own storyline. Just because another game doesn't want to do that, doesn't mean you get to flip them the two fingers.

I'd also add that this is a discussion site. You actually have to hear what we say, though you can chose to ignore it. I somehow figure you'll do that with this comment.
 

Cardonay

New member
Jul 16, 2009
19
0
0
Patrick_and_the_ricks said:
FloodOne said:
Final Fantasy XIII has a female protagonist.

So did Final Fantasy VI.

Final Fantasy X had a lead female who wasn't sexed up, and was ready to make the ultimate sacrifice for the people of her world. That's a pretty positive step.

Those aren't games that are marketed to girls though, so I don't know who you would hold responsible in those instances.
I don't think anime games make good examples.... Since girls are almost entirely shown as sluts/ welll... Sluts. (I don't watch anime but I have seen enough to know its a wierd form of soft core porn)
Anime games?!... it's just a style, nothing more. And FF-games characters were never anime-look-alikes, only in the artworks sometimes.

For the discussion: I hate this discussion. Let's play whats gotta be played and if you don't like a genre/setting/character, let it be. I'm a girl and I have no problems with any genre or stereotype. It's fictional. (Actually, I love the DOAEXBV-series...!) And we all are animals, deep deep inside, therefore: sex sells but I prefer creative settings and characters and we all capable of making own decisions and world-views.
Nice article, btw.
 

Legion

Were it so easy
Oct 2, 2008
7,190
0
0
"For now, I'd settle for more games in which the main character's gender is left up to the player's personal preference. What could be more fair? Why does Sora have to be a boy? Why can't the Elite Beat Agents be girls? I don't want to hear about how that mucks around with the storyline, either, because Mass Effect and Fable 2 both pulled it off just fine."
I agree. There are a lot of games where the player could so easily be a boy or a girl without any real change to the story.

Bioshock is a good example as you never see your face; your voice in the opening cut-scene and the people calling you Jack are the only things in the entire game that decide you are a guy so they could easily change those for girls.

I'd say Halo and Half Life would work but Halo has a lot of back-story and Half Life has Alyx as a love interest (nothing wrong with lesbians but her fathers comment about reproduction would seem a little odd).

I think that's one of the things I liked about Fallout 3 so much, I played the game using a male and a female to see the difference and they are subtle but work very well.
 

dochmbi

New member
Sep 15, 2008
753
0
0
People should be thought of primarily as humans, not as men or women. A man should have the right to do womanly things without being looked down upon and women should have the right to do manly things without being looked down upon.
 

Lord_Ascendant

New member
Jan 14, 2008
2,909
0
0
Ignignokt said:
Lord_Ascendant said:
This coming from a person who played ... Mass Effect... as a girl becuase he felt like throwing a stick into the gears and being a girl for a change.
I was wondering about that. If you play Mass Effect as a girl, is the love story with that Kaiden guy, or does Ashley become a lesbian?
I chose to be hetero because the Alien chick was too easy and Ashley Willaims sounds like a guy's name so....*cough*
 

Florion

New member
Dec 7, 2008
670
0
0
Sara Grimes said:
I love this article. Girl games suffer from the same ostracization as most other forms of "girl culture" - whether its princess parties and My Little Pony, or the daring girls who have the nerve to join the dirt biking team, there's always someone around just waiting to point out how "wrong" it is. Though in defense of Tracey John's article, that shouldn't mean that we can't hold them to the same standards as any other game... in terms of subjecting them to critique, analysis and discussion, as well as demanding the same levels of variety, innovation, immersion, good storylines, characters, etc. etc. as any other genre. John points out a pretty important aspect of this "new wave" of girl games - they mostly all revolve around the same three or four themes, contributing to the ongoing (though admittedly quite *sparkly*) cluttering of a market that seems to be growing despite these games rather than because of them.

My beef with this new spurt of girl games isn't that they exist - I agree with Susan that they should if there's a demand for them, but that they're taking shelf space (and development efforts) away from other genres that might do a bit better at filling the substantial gap that still exists within the girls' games market. Girls play online games WAY more than console games (90%+ vs. 28%, e.g. http://gonintendo.com/viewstory.php?id=87579), and I'm pretty sure that Stardoll, BarbieGirls and The Sims aren't the only titles capturing their attention (Runescape, Club Penguin, and Free Realms are all extremely popular among girl gamers as well). When it comes to console games, Guitar Hero and Wii Sports rank way up there on girls' lists of their favourite games. I wish the industry would start looking toward girls' actual gaming habits rather than simply reproducing the same old themes that already dominate both the girls' toy aisle (a suffering market as girls now abandon their toys and dolls at younger and younger ages) AND the girls' games shelf.

If the industry is ever going to build more significant and sustainable inroads into the ever-elusive "girls market" they're going to have to add a few more tricks to their dog and pony show (hmm...dogs and ponies sounds like the premise for a new Ubisoft Imagine title). Maybe start by taking all those games that girl gamers already like and then actively market them to other, non-gamer girls? Even if it means that maybe some boys somewhere might see the game being advertised to girls? Even at the risk of associating that game with, *gasp*, girl culture? Would that really be so detrimental to sales figures? Would boys really abandon Guitar Hero just because they saw an ad during Spongebob that featured some girl players and a female voice-over?

Or maybe by finally taking a chance on "Science Mama", realizing that expanding into new markets is never risk-free, and that yet another "Princess Secret Crush" game is just as likely to tank as it is to sell? I mean, how many of these girl games have totally and utterly failed? And how many awesome and innovative girls games have been buried and left for dead by a market that emphasizes same-ness above (and to the detriment of) all else? Thomas mentions this in her blurb on The Daring Game for Girls: "Like the book, the game offers handy tips and facts as well as non-stereotypically female activities, encouraging girls to seek adventure ? not boyfriends or cute clothes, for once. So, of course, no one will actually play it." Tell that to Her Interactive, makers of the extremely popular Nancy Drew games (http://www.herinteractive.com/press-release.php?id=9). There's so much untapped and unchanneled potential out there, yet all the industry's powerhouses (EA, Ubisoft, etc.) seem to be able to come up with is more of the same. And when a "different" game does somehow manage to get through, they fail to promote it, thereby letting the "market" "prove" there's no room for innovation.

Or maybe by realizing that girls aren't going to be drawn into gaming as a lifelong passion by themes and characters alone (although they are important). Design is so key to attracting new players...intuitive controls, rich environments and, of course, accessibility. The really sad thing about many of the girl games currently on the market - [and I know I'm going to get some negative responses from this, but here goes] - is how poorly they're designed. Clunky, buggy, overly-restrictive, with limited customizability and very low re-playability. Too much endless grinding at repetitive, mostly mindless (and buggy!) mini-games that have little or no relationship with the larger game. And this has been a shockingly pervasive feature of girl games ever since the first wave happened in the mid-1990s. There are of course a number of well designed, innovative titles as well, but these are way too few and far between. I anticipate that most of the titles in this newest batch will reproduce the norm, not the exception.

All of which really makes me wonder...who and what is this niche really for anyway?
I am ashamed to say I started the first paragraph thinking "I am going to read the first paragraph and then stop because this is way too long." Then your response was so thoughtful and filled with valid points that I couldn't stop reading it. Well-played. :p

Tears of Blood said:
First of all, I didn't even read the whole article because I felt like the writer was yelling at me, and I don't even hold the opinion she is calling bullshit.
So you're saying you didn't read the article because you didn't agree with the thesis? That seems a little narrow-minded.

Second, it's not just that most games are targeted towards males, but that games have always been a dominantly male passtime. What girl wants to play a game about fashion and other girly stuff when she can just as easily do that in real-life with far more freedom than a game could ever offer? To be quite honest, books are romance movies are more the niche of women. They can live out their feminine fantasies through that. Men, however, are more keen on what can be depicted in a game.
Gee, I wonder why more males enjoy video games than females? Oh right, because the content is marketed to them. There are plenty of shall we say "feminine" game premises that make great video games (Flower, for example?), it's just that they don't get made because people figure males are a bigger market.