Skyrim, where's the fun?

Skratt

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Soopy said:
Skratt said:
NotALiberal said:
I don't get what's so compelling about exploring in Skyrim? It's tedious as you run out of Stamina every 5 seconds, riding a horse is godawful (seriously? I've seen games from 2004 with better animations), and then when you finally get to the place, its just more landscape with nothing to do in it, or an (instanced) dungeon filled with Draugr in which you go in and engage in the game's tedious, pathetic, unrefined, godawful combat system.

They have the "open world" part down, but there's just nothing to do. Quests are all of the "go here fetch/kill" variety, and writing and characterization are barely non-existent. They are just objectively bad games. Animations are below sub-par, combat is pathetic, story is non existent, "exploring" consists of roaming around an empty wasteland with nothing to do but fight more people (see above about how pathetic combat is). The game has potential, Bethesda are just a bunch of monkeys incapable of getting the little things like MAKING COMBAT FUN or NOT HAVING ANIMATIONS FROM CIRCA 2001 correct. It's a shame, TES games all had potential, but as they are, they're just bug riddled, over hyped pieces of shit. Yes, this applies to Daggerfall too, people need to take off the nostalgia goggles.

EDIT: Please note I can tell the difference when "a game isn't for me" and when a game just flat out sucks. Which Skyrim does.
If a game is not for you, wouldn't you also think it sucked? There aren't really any games that suck, just games that aren't for everyone. Take JRPGs for example. Biggest steaming piles of repetative shit out there. But that's just my opinion because they aren't for me.
You could apply what you just said to movies, you don't. Movies can and do flat out suck.
So why are video games not subject to the same criticism?
I do apply what I just said to movies. If someone tells me a movie sucks, but I liked it, it must be them. I can't help that stupid people like to generalize. I can't control what they say or do, so if they don't like something and want to just say it sucks, they are welcome to be wrong.
 

Soopy

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Skratt said:
I do apply what I just said to movies. If someone tells me a movie sucks, but I liked it, it must be them. I can't help that stupid people like to generalize. I can't control what they say or do, so if they don't like something and want to just say it sucks, they are welcome to be wrong.
But there are certain criteria that can be failed in order for a movie to "suck".
Clearly defined facets that are quantifiable.

The same can be said for games.
Skyrim for example;

It's a fact that it (and most all Bethesda titles are) is buggy as all hell, that it doesn't actually work as intended in allot of cases.

The NPC interaction stiff - Dialogue is very one dimensional.

The world is huge, but largely unsubstantial; There is very little to see that is of value.

The quest lines are very short and unsubstantial.

The combat is poor. Arbitrary rules imposed by the user, are not the solution to a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

The quest rewards are poor; What you receive as a reward is seldom actually useful within the game. The Items aren't regularly useful to character unless scripted to be so.

There is little reason to play more then one character. You can do everything in the game in one play through. Sure you don't HAVE to, but it's another example of poor game design.

There is no pay off. All the time and effort invested into the game results in absolutely nothing. There is no finalization to the story, there is no recognition of the player character for any of his actions and there is no end game content to keep the player around. Player day dreaming is not a solution to this. This is akin to saying that if a movie has little substance to the plot and script, that the viewer should simply pretend that it does.

It's all well and good, to be happy with Skyrim, if all you want is a canvas that you can project imaginings. That's fine, nothing wrong with that. But that isn't really a GAME is it, it's just a mental stimulant.

My fridge makes ice, I manipulate controls in order for it to produce ice. I could imagine that I am fighting a Frost Atronarch and that the resultant ice cubes are the remains of said Atronarch. But that doesn't make my Fridge a game. It just means I have a vivid imagination.

This is where the argument against Skyrim comes from. To say its a poor game does not mean that anyone with this view point is a dull unimaginative oaf. I'm not, I can assure you.
It simply means that, for the reasons listed about, it isn't a very good Video game.
 

eternal-chaplain

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Rooster Cogburn said:
Nope. This game is intended for people who appreciate an open, realized world, extreme freedom and depth of choice, and great music, visuals and landscapes, organic, unscripted gameplay, and so on and so forth. Bethesda delivers an experience with scope, grandeur, and freedom that no one else even attempts. If you like a carefully crafted, on the rails, set-piece heavy CoD experience then more power to you. If you are not enthralled as I am by the Elder Scrolls concept, then there probably isn't a lot here you can't get done better somewhere else. I don't hold that against you. But it's crazy to talk like those of us who want more out of our games and are willing to forgive a sloppy animation or a 90 minute long list of flaws to get it are bunch of gibbering magpies. Fuck that.

When someone else makes a game like Skyrim and does it half as well, then you can call me whatever you want.
When I see these kind of pro-Skyrim mass attack posts, I often nope the heck out of there. But I feel as though you may view as a Call of Duty Jock who doesn't like experiences like Skyrim purely because it doesn't sate my inflamed libido. Infamous was a rather open game, and it is one the best gaming experiences.

Wait, hold on. What? 'if you are not enthralled as I am by the elder scrolls concept, then there probably isn't a lot here you can get done better somewhere else.' I don't even. I think...you're saying that I can't appreciate video games...or at least open world games, if I don't like the elder scrolls.

Now that's just pure fallacy- I never said I didn't like the elder scrolls, just skyrim, really. To be frank, I like open world games, and skyrim at least feels big- it reminds me of Wind Waker, in a way, even. But I can never enjoy the world it's set out for me because of how poorly structured nearly every mechanic is. Even the music, largely featuring motifs the contradicts the theme of nordic culture in general throw me out of immersion, even if some may consider that sheer nit-picking.
 

Fasckira

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Ive spent a lot more time in Oblivion than I have in Skyrim, but I cant put a finger on why. I think Oblivion just seemed more colourful, and I dont mean that literally. It just seemed to jump out at you more.

I found the dragon encounters quickly got stale, and tended to happen when I could least be arsed with dealing with them. I think the most inconvient time was when I had just handed over all my weapons and armour in preparation to sneak into the place as a cook and a dragon attacked. Not exactly helpful timing!

In Oblivion, the population seemed more alive and happy with tales of untold riches on every horizon. In Skyrim, it just all seems rather depressing and dark.
 

Applejack

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s69-5 said:
Applejack said:
Not really what I was expecting, can I make spells later?
Sadly, no...

That was the single biggest turn off in Skyrim for me.

I spent far less time in Skyrim than Cyrodill. Skyrim was dumbed down way too much. The generic level/perk system. The lack of spell making. The 10,000 Draugr you must kill. The repetitive/ boring dragon battles. Meaningless races choice beyond the palette swap.

I got the platinum trophy and walked away. (I probably logged 1000 hours in Oblivion. 1000 hours in Fallout 3. 500 New Vegas. 100 Skyrim...)
Spellmaking was a big way to customize my playstyle and character in Oblivion so it is very disappointing. Example if your a vampire hunter you could make a spell for that.. The dragons were supposed to be a big thing for Skyrim but I find them lackin in several areas. Play Monter hunter portable 3rd or Tri and look at the animations and mobe set of Rathian and you see a huge difference! I know it's not a good point to compare two games but they really do have beautiful fluid animation in the later MH titles.

To be clear I find a lot of things better about Skyrim but the major ones to me aren't in place.
 

Rooster Cogburn

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Eternal-Chaplain said:
Rooster Cogburn said:
Nope. This game is intended for people who appreciate an open, realized world, extreme freedom and depth of choice, and great music, visuals and landscapes, organic, unscripted gameplay, and so on and so forth. Bethesda delivers an experience with scope, grandeur, and freedom that no one else even attempts. If you like a carefully crafted, on the rails, set-piece heavy CoD experience then more power to you. If you are not enthralled as I am by the Elder Scrolls concept, then there probably isn't a lot here you can't get done better somewhere else. I don't hold that against you. But it's crazy to talk like those of us who want more out of our games and are willing to forgive a sloppy animation or a 90 minute long list of flaws to get it are bunch of gibbering magpies. Fuck that.

When someone else makes a game like Skyrim and does it half as well, then you can call me whatever you want.
When I see these kind of pro-Skyrim mass attack posts, I often nope the heck out of there. But I feel as though you may view as a Call of Duty Jock who doesn't like experiences like Skyrim purely because it doesn't sate my inflamed libido. Infamous was a rather open game, and it is one the best gaming experiences.

Wait, hold on. What? 'if you are not enthralled as I am by the elder scrolls concept, then there probably isn't a lot here you can get done better somewhere else.' I don't even. I think...you're saying that I can't appreciate video games...or at least open world games, if I don't like the elder scrolls.

Now that's just pure fallacy- I never said I didn't like the elder scrolls, just skyrim, really. To be frank, I like open world games, and skyrim at least feels big- it reminds me of Wind Waker, in a way, even. But I can never enjoy the world it's set out for me because of how poorly structured nearly every mechanic is. Even the music, largely featuring motifs the contradicts the theme of nordic culture in general throw me out of immersion, even if some may consider that sheer nit-picking.
Pro-Skyrim attack post? You said people like me were "too stupid and easily amused to think for more than a few minutes" and "gullible". I was only defending myself. Do you really feel like I am the aggressor here?

Just because I used the word CoD, doesn't mean I was trying to paint you as some kind of bro-dude fratboy. That's not what I said. I was talking about the way the game is designed and structured. I wasn't saying you can't or shouldn't appreciate video games. I was saying I understand where you're coming from. I'm trying to say we know Skyrim is flawed but we love it anyway. We're not fucking dumb like you said. If you are not impressed by the things Skyrim does to set itself apart, then you have no reason to tolerate things like bad animations and all the flaws that made it into your list. I was saying I understand that and there is nothing wrong with it.

Judging by the paragraph you wrote, it makes no sense to me that you would hate Skyrim but like a different Elder Scrolls title, all of which suffer the same issues but worse. That's your business of course but I don't understand it. I disagree that the mechanics and artistic motifs don't jive, I think they work very well indeed and blow Oblivion out of the water. Personally I wish they would have played up the Viking thing a little more and made it their own. But saying the music don't jive doesn't justify calling me too stupid to think. If you really think I'm that dumb and you want to discuss it further why don't you explain the depths of my drooling, brainless incompetence.
 

Soopy

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Rooster Cogburn said:
Mmm, they don't all suffer the same issues mate. Personally I think debating what fun qualifies as, is as fruitless as arguing which colour in the visible spectrum is best. Fun, is subjective.

If we're to debate anything, it needs to be quantifiable facts. Not subjective opinion.

It's good that you enjoy Skyrim. I can't take that away from you, no one should try either. It's not a point that is arguable. I'm happy for you.
 

Skratt

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Soopy said:
I wanted to go line by line against your post, but it's rather pointless. We are arguing over opinions and perspective.

I was fortunate enough to avoid the bugs and was happy to suspend disbelief to get around wooden NPCs, shitty quest rewards, and the lack of finality. It would be awesome if none of those things existed, but I had fun despite them.

A good game is a game you have fun playing. And since fun is a subjective pasttime, the quality of a game can really only be measured by the person playing it. Just like movies. :)

If you, or anyone else, would like to set arbitrary rules that let you know if something is good or bad then I say rock on. The way I see it, if you aren't having fun, don't play. To me, who gives a shit if you or I think something is bad? If they are having fun, you and I and our shitty opinions don't matter.

Example: Minecraft and Final Fantasy are both shitty games for diferent reasons. I could list bad design choice after bad design choice and it would be nothing more than my opinion because millions of people like both of those games.
 

Soopy

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Skratt said:
Soopy said:
I wanted to go line by line against your post, but it's rather pointless. We are arguing over opinions and perspective.

I was fortunate enough to avoid the bugs and was happy to suspend disbelief to get around wooden NPCs, shitty quest rewards, and the lack of finality. It would be awesome if none of those things existed, but I had fun despite them.

A good game is a game you have fun playing. And since fun is a subjective pasttime, the quality of a game can really only be measured by the person playing it. Just like movies. :)

If you, or anyone else, would like to set arbitrary rules that let you know if something is good or bad then I say rock on. The way I see it, if you aren't having fun, don't play. To me, who gives a shit if you or I think something is bad? If they are having fun, you and I and our shitty opinions don't matter.

Example: Minecraft and Final Fantasy are both shitty games for diferent reasons. I could list bad design choice after bad design choice and it would be nothing more than my opinion because millions of people like both of those games.
That's perfectly valid as well.

I have one thing to add to my list of bullshit I posted earlier. I compare TES games, with TES games.
Each game has always had its issues. But I have a problem when the latest iteration still has issues evident in previous titles, and has technical issues that should not exist in its current generation (I,e; Skyrims god awe full animations).

To me, Skyrim falls over simply because it is lazy. The dev's didn't really improve upon anything that Oblivion did in any significant way. Not considering the time frame between the titles. Everything that was improved, Should damn well have been improved but wasn't improved enough to be acceptable (IMO) when compared with modern standards.

Not only this, but I feel that they gutted what made the TES special. The absolutely astonishing depth and intricate winding within the TES universe.
Which is why I find it Ironic when Skyrim fans label Skyrim critiques as "COD kiddies" or the like. Because frankly. Skyrim is TES:COD Edition.
 

eternal-chaplain

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Rooster Cogburn said:
Pro-Skyrim attack post? You said people like me were "too stupid and easily amused to think for more than a few minutes" and "gullible". I was only defending myself. Do you really feel like I am the aggressor here?

Just because I used the word CoD, doesn't mean I was trying to paint you as some kind of bro-dude fratboy. That's not what I said. I was talking about the way the game is designed and structured. I wasn't saying you can't or shouldn't appreciate video games. I was saying I understand where you're coming from. I'm trying to say we know Skyrim is flawed but we love it anyway. We're not fucking dumb like you said. If you are not impressed by the things Skyrim does to set itself apart, then you have no reason to tolerate things like bad animations and all the flaws that made it into your list. I was saying I understand that and there is nothing wrong with it.

Judging by the paragraph you wrote, it makes no sense to me that you would hate Skyrim but like a different Elder Scrolls title, all of which suffer the same issues but worse. That's your business of course but I don't understand it. I disagree that the mechanics and artistic motifs don't jive, I think they work very well indeed and blow Oblivion out of the water. Personally I wish they would have played up the Viking thing a little more and made it their own. But saying the music don't jive doesn't justify calling me too stupid to think. If you really think I'm that dumb and you want to discuss it further why don't you explain the depths of my drooling, brainless incompetence.
Aw jeez, I am certainly co.in off as a monster now; I can feel my forum health slipping through my fingers...

Mass attack was a bit of a colloquial. It would be better to call it a retaliation, seeing as condescension is made synonymous with aggression.

With the apologies out of the way, one must agree that your argument is nonsequitter. Yes, mechanics have been changed. But consider some elements such as structured character classes. Many people tell stories of the game being too easy, while others quit because it is too hard. And I feel as though this is largely due to a comets lack of class balancing, allowing some players to take a sort of easy route, while others are mired in the disjointed mish mash of possible destinies.

Just so, in other elder scrolls titles, rewards from quests and combatike gd and jewels actually felt as though they were worth something, she currency in skyrim is nearly worthless. When you can make all the potions you need from scratch and find the rest lying around on the floor, it begs the question. Sure you can train skills with money, but is the leveling progression really so boring that you would rather pay someone tl do it for you- again begging the question.

By the way, I am using my mobile here, so sorry if this is rife with autocorrect mishaps.
 

TwiZtah

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Applejack said:
I started playing Skyrim a lot about a month ago because I heard the worst of the bugs are now gone and that I can fight on the back of my horse now but there's still a huge problem. The battles are really dull. I just swing at everything with a sword and shoot slow motion arrows. The bad guys all act the same and the dragons are very mechanical. I want a huge enemy variety like in Oblivion and cool weapons like Fallout! That's what made those games fun. I thought werewolfness would help spice things up a bit but it makes me really weak. Why did everyone rate this game so high? The only thing I find interesting is the exploration part of the game. I haven't trie magic yet is that a more fun way to play?
My biggest gripe with Skyrim (and all other ToS games) are that no weapons have any weight, a heavy attack is just a slow light attack.
 

SpaceBat

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Mirroga said:
I have analyzed some behaviors about the fun in different genre. All I can say is, if you're not into Skyrim it's either you never liked the RPG setting or you simply don't play too many games in different genres. The appeal of Skyrim and possibly other Bethesda games is the "freedom" found in it that are rare in today's videogames.
I've been playing an insane amount of both JRPG's and WRPG's for nearly two decades. I've also been playing tons of games of nearly every genre other than racing and fighting.

I had trouble getting through Skyrim and eventually just ended up finishing the main quest and uninstalling it. Freedom in games is completely unimportant if the content in this huge world is incredibly bland and uninteresting and is accompanied by repetitive and bland gameplay.

Skyrim is actually the reason why I've been avoiding open-world games for the past few months now.

Rooster Cogburn said:
This game is intended for people who appreciate an open, realized world, extreme freedom and depth of choice, and great music, visuals and landscapes, organic, unscripted gameplay, and so on and so forth.

If you are not enthralled as I am by the Elder Scrolls concept, then there probably isn't a lot here you can't get done better somewhere else.
Perhaps I'm remembering it incorrectly, but the majority of the choices you make in Skyrim have little to no weight behind them. The world and characters barely reacts to your actions and decisions throughout the game (unless they result in death). I would have very much loved to see what you've just described, but I simply cannot find a single game that actually does any of that well enough.

And I actually do know one game, personally superior to skyrim, with an (somewhat) open, realized world, extreme freedom, depth of choice, great music, visuals and landscapes and organic, unscripted gameplay. It's just on a much smaller scale, which makes it a lot more effective due to the lack of incredibly repetitive area's and a shitload of shallow, uninspired filler. It's called Dark Souls.

This is all personal opinion, of course. If you can enjoy Skyrim extreme freedom despite it's repetitive nature, more power to you.
 

Adon Cabre

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Eternal-Chaplain said:
On Friday I got home and had a 90 minute discussion with my brother concerning Skyrim. The surprising part of it being that we did not just go back and forth, one supporting, one against. No we literally found enough things wrong with Skyrim to make a list that takes 90 minutes to read. Really the people who are meant to enjoy this game are those too stupid and easily amused to think for more than a few minutes, lest they peel away the veil of muddy lighting and blurry textures and see this game for what it really is, and that is a boring waste of lazy programming and piss poor design. It would be easier to stop trying to find a single good thing in the game and just start laughing at the developers and wondering how gullible do they think we are?
That was always my reservation about the game. Big and meaty sometimes mean different things in today's easily amused gamer culture.
 

Smeatza

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I have a theory that everyone thinks the first Elder Scrolls game they played is the best, and they get progressively worse from there.
I think Skyrim did lack the variety, depth and atmosphere of Oblivion. But then again Oblivion was the first Elder Scrolls game I played.
 

Rooster Cogburn

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Soopy said:
Rooster Cogburn said:
Mmm, they don't all suffer the same issues mate. Personally I think debating what fun qualifies as, is as fruitless as arguing which colour in the visible spectrum is best. Fun, is subjective.

If we're to debate anything, it needs to be quantifiable facts. Not subjective opinion.

It's good that you enjoy Skyrim. I can't take that away from you, no one should try either. It's not a point that is arguable. I'm happy for you.
That's a bold claim to make about as-yet-unnamed issues lol. They do suffer issues which are the same and issues which are similar or comparable. The person I replied to remarked on the number of of issues, anyhow. You can debate subjective things, in fact most debates are subjective or imply elements of subjectivity. No one is trying to tell anybody where fun comes from. Did you read the post I was originally replying to? The one that said I was too stupid to think?

I do appreciate the "live and let live" sentiment, though. That's a good attitude.
 

Rooster Cogburn

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Eternal-Chaplain said:
Aw jeez, I am certainly co.in off as a monster now; I can feel my forum health slipping through my fingers...

Mass attack was a bit of a colloquial. It would be better to call it a retaliation, seeing as condescension is made synonymous with aggression.

With the apologies out of the way,
Apology not accepted. Telling me what I did wrong is not an apology. That was a veiled and unfair accusation. You insulted me and I did not retaliate. I did not condescend either. I think we are having a misunderstanding about a point I was trying to make, which was actually intended to be conciliatory. I don't care if you apologize or not, I just resent the accusation.
one must agree that your argument is nonsequitter. Yes, mechanics have been changed. But consider some elements such as structured character classes. Many people tell stories of the game being too easy, while others quit because it is too hard. And I feel as though this is largely due to a comets lack of class balancing, allowing some players to take a sort of easy route, while others are mired in the disjointed mish mash of possible destinies.
I think you are right, but I am not sure which argument you are referring to as a non sequitur. And Skyrim is by far the best balanced Elder Scrolls both for new players and hardened veterans with level 300 characters. That's kind of like beating a fish at breathing air but there you go.

Just so, in other elder scrolls titles, rewards from quests and combatike gd and jewels actually felt as though they were worth something, she currency in skyrim is nearly worthless. When you can make all the potions you need from scratch and find the rest lying around on the floor, it begs the question. Sure you can train skills with money, but is the leveling progression really so boring that you would rather pay someone tl do it for you- again begging the question.
I have played Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim, and the currency has become more valuable, not less. Morrowind was by far the worst in that regard. You could find things around in all three games, and you could train with money in all three. Training is good because it takes a long time to level without it, it's a much-needed useful money-sink, and it really helps out when your skills are not leveling as evenly as you would like. And I just ignore it unless I'm falling way behind in a skill because yes, leveling is fun and, for the first time ever, I need my money for other things. Items in Skyrim are more valuable than ever because they fill in some of the blanks left by the loss of attributes. If I was going to complain about the items I would complain about only having four armor slots.

By the way, I am using my mobile here, so sorry if this is rife with autocorrect mishaps.
I know how it is lol.
SpaceBat said:
Mirroga said:
Rooster Cogburn said:
This game is intended for people who appreciate an open, realized world, extreme freedom and depth of choice, and great music, visuals and landscapes, organic, unscripted gameplay, and so on and so forth.

If you are not enthralled as I am by the Elder Scrolls concept, then there probably isn't a lot here you can't get done better somewhere else.
Perhaps I'm remembering it incorrectly, but the majority of the choices you make in Skyrim have little to no weight behind them. The world and characters barely reacts to your actions and decisions throughout the game (unless they result in death). I would have very much loved to see what you've just described, but I simply cannot find a single game that actually does any of that well enough.

And I actually do know one game, personally superior to skyrim, with an (somewhat) open, realized world, extreme freedom, depth of choice, great music, visuals and landscapes and organic, unscripted gameplay. It's just on a much smaller scale, which makes it a lot more effective due to the lack of incredibly repetitive area's and a shitload of shallow, uninspired filler. It's called Dark Souls.

This is all personal opinion, of course. If you can enjoy Skyrim extreme freedom despite it's repetitive nature, more power to you.
Oh, I did not mean Skyrim had story choices. I was talking about the skill system, the open nature of the quests and gameplay, the variety of ways to handle any given situation and the opportunities for roleplaying. Skyrim did not react much to your actions, it's true. I think that is perfectly acceptable in an Elder Scrolls game, the problem is the way Skyrim was written. An ever-changing world in flux isn't what this type of game does well, so Bethesda should stop trying to do it if you ask me. I don't actually want The Elder Scrolls to have story choices. I don't think fucking up the formula to try and be Bioware is the way to go. Call me stuck in my ways, but I think there are some games that would be worse for having that system and this is one.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, another example is Bioware games.

I'm sure Dark Souls is fantastic but it's not remotely close to what I'm talking about and not just for the much smaller scale, which would be more than enough reason to reject it. The million dollar question is more effective at what. Dark Souls simply isn't trying to do the same thing. When I say a game like Skyrim, I mean a game like Skyrim. Not something in the same broad genre that you like better. While your jabs at Skyrim left me totally butthurt and buttsore, I choose not to be baited into arguing over Dark Souls because that has nothing to do with anything and I don't give a shit.
 

Shavon513

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Try playing as a mage or stealth character before you give up on it completely. Swording and boarding is only fun for so long, before every quest is lather, rinse, repeat.

Of course, the draugr and dragons are also to blame for that.