Skyward Sword

[Terramax]

While it is impossible for the controls to be as bad as Yahtzee/GameSpot/etc claim and still have the majority of players/reviewers say they work near flawlessly, it's entirely possible for the controls to work near flawlessly but have a handful of players that merely suck at using them and blame the controls and not the operator.

Or it could be the other reviewers are just telling people what they want to hear, not what they should.

Try telling someone a hyped game on Amazon is less than amazing and, despite having valid points, it'll still be savaged by fanboys, just as Yahtzee has pointed out here.

 

[Epona]

Also, I thought the motion controls in this game were some of the best I've seen on the Wii. While it does get rather annoying when it doesn't register a swing until a split second too late and you get fucking electrocuted over and over, and I have to spend five minutes trying to hold it at precisely the right angle of `straight up' so that the game will recognize that I'm trying to charge a Skyward Strike, the controls were still very fluid for the most part

Let's examine:

Also, I thought the motion controls in this game were some of the best I've seen on the Wii.

Ok...but wait:

While it does get rather annoying when it doesn't register a swing until a split second too late and you get fucking electrocuted over and over, and I have to spend five minutes trying to hold it at precisely the right angle of `straight up' so that the game will recognize that I'm trying to charge a Skyward Strike,

That doesn't sound like good controls to me.

the controls were still very fluid for the most part

So the controls worked properly MOST of the time. If you had been using a standard controller, they would have worked ALL of the time.

 

[ReinWeisserRitter]

I think the most ironic part of this all is that Yahtzee most likely wont even read these comments.

Ben Croshaw presents himself as a cynic who has almost as much interest in what people think as he does trying to saw off his left arm with his other arm. There'd be nothing ironic about him not bothering to read his response to the obnoxious sorts of human refuse that scream at him for daring not to like something they do; him explaining his position isn't going to sway the kind of person who behaves in such a way. There are people who agree with him or at least see it from his point of view, sure, but I'm going to doubt he had a problem with those.

You could say this article is akin to being the sole survivor of a ship wreck and yelling "I MADE IT" at the top of your lungs while in the middle of nowhere; it's an act the actor knows has no actual purpose and won't accomplish anything, but it made them feel better. For the time being, anyway.

The Escapist really baffles me some times. I can't count how many of Yahtzee's videos or articles contain some sort of dig at what the fanboys will say in response. They are always fat and nerdy and spewing frothy liquids from their mounths, and are of course, retarted.

Now, this? This is ironic.

 

[Mahoshonen]

I just had an epiphany.

My friend owns SS. While at his house two weeks ago I asked him how the controls were. His response was that they were great. He then played a bit while we were waiting for a third person. I watched how he used the controls. What jumped out to me was that all his wiimote motions were slight, minimal, and barely noticable. At the time, I thought that was weird but couldn't put my finger on why. It finally hit me as to what it was.

Every commercial for the wii, every show or movie that has someone playing a wii, every trade show convention that someone is onstage playing a wii shows them making broad, sweeping motions with the wiimote.

Now setting aside the argument on whether or not the controls are responsive enough, if the way my friend was playing is the right way to play (slight, minimal movements), then Nintendo dropped the ball on educating its target user base.

Think about it: there's never been a commercial controller like the wiimote (that I know of). So buyers had to be taught how to use it. How did they learn? By watching the commercials and game demos, both which showed broad movements.

So if the problem people have is that they are being to spastic, that's not really their fault-they're simply doing what they've been taught.

 

[Razhem]

The problem with that is it's anecdotal evidence.

I've played the game. I have no problem with the precision or timing of the controls. My sword is held where I want it to be hold. I attack from the direction that I want and it happens when I want it to happen. Any lag that may exist has never negatively impacted my gameplay to the point where I think it's a legitimate flaw.

And yet there are still people who insist that the controls in any motion game don't work the way they want. I don't have anyway to disprove that because my satisfaction is all from personal experience. It's a hard topic to discuss.

We are not talking 10 hit combos or tekken multi throws though. We are talking about moving your arm from left to right. This is something we can all do(with the exception of those with disabilities) without thinking but so many people are struggling with it using motion control. At that point the controller needs looking at. It should be done with the ease of pressing A.

Thats why I'm not sold on motion controls. Ive tried them a few times (except for the PS3 version, I don't know anyone with it) and found them unresponsive. When I play on a controller I know pressing the button provides a reaction, any noticable delay is poor programming and interface. Is the delay on motion controls the peripheral or the programming? So its not like "really doing it" so Ill use the more responsive controller.

Im not some caveman with co-ordination issues, Ive done over 10 years of martial arts, play guitar and am quite handy on none motion control games.

Now, what would get me playing motion controls? (we can all say what we dont like). K-1 kickboxing on connect, but this will not happen. I doubt the system could follow anyone with any hand speed, most people cannot throw head kicks and dont have the stamina play more than 2 minutes at a time.

On second thoughts the wi mote could make a good flight stick for flight sims/ace combat etc. Makes me wonder why this hasn't been exploited yet.

Seems to me you are overanalizing mate, it's exactly the same ordeal anybody getting into gaming through a normal pad has to go through, you actually have to relearn the interface now instead of just basing it on all your knowledge of gaming. That is the reason why a lot of people are initially all inclined to just say "if only I had a normal controller", it's what they know and by golly, it's the best thing ever.

Also, I'm amazed at how some people go to the lengths of insinuating that nobody dares give their real opinion about the game except manly ol Yatzhee when the own review of Skyward sword in the escapist was full of praise, and I'd dare say the escapist is considered a worthy source in here.

 

[OuroborosChoked]

"Fanboys, please defend this."

Okay.

So the first of the many complaints I hear about this game that I've personally deemed unjustifible from my position ontop of my self-appointed throne of gaming-critic-that-doesn't-actually-critique anything is that the game has bad controls...blah blah blah

I refer you to a post I made on the original video. Namely:

"I swing my Wiimote and I get blocked. Link's arm ricochets. Mine doesn't. Mine keeps going. So I have to move my arm back to the starting position before I can re-position my arm for try #2. In doing so, I end up swinging the sword again from the wrong location.

REPEAT.

The flying controls are painful. In the default hand position, it's very difficult to tilt down enough to dive. Wrists don't bend that way. The same goes for bomb rolling. If I want to roll a bomb, I have to move my hand position, point the Wiimote down, then flick and hope the system actually registers it as a flick, not an "I'm returning to neutral position", as it often does.

Then there's the harp. I swear I must've played the harp performance about THIRTY times. Every time I started, my hand's position was in a different place... and no matter how carefully I moved my Wiimote, Link's hand would always slide half-way back in the other direction. To clarify:

I swing right -> Link strums right
I hold my arm steady and still at the right -> Link starts strumming BACK TO THE LEFT.
My arm hasn't moved. AT ALL.

How am I supposed to control a game accurately when the controls don't respond to my inputs? It's like playing DDR with a steering wheel!

Oh yes, and the recalibration. EVERY TIME I use a B-button item (that blowing vase thing, the slingshot, flying scarab thing, etc.), when I press the B-button, the controls orient by where my Wiimote was pointing when I pressed the button... which often means Link's going to be spinning around in circles until I press Down on the D-Pad.

Would ANY of this happen on a traditional controller?

NO. And that's why motion controls SUCK. The End."

Now onto the much dreaded topic of the notorious "fetch quests" and "padding" [...] It's not a fetch quest, you loon. A fetch quest is where you're told to go find monster x and kill him y many times, possibly even doing the extra step of bringing back token z drop [...my you do like hearing yourself go on, don't you?...]

Actually, that's not a fetch quest. That's grinding. A fetch quest IS:

"any quest where someone has told you what you need to find"

That. Go there, grab that, and bring it here. I'll give you some sort of compensation for doing so. A fetch quest: defined. How you've gotten it confused with grinding for loot drops is beyond me.

It's not even really padding

Yes it is. It's arbitrarily extending the length of a quest by adding busywork to it. Busywork, might I add, that adds no depth or comparable reward to the quest. Take the Hero's song bit where you have to swim around for the notes. Why? I've got the fully powered up Master Sword already. Why do I have to prove myself AGAIN? It's not like I had to find lost items. The Water Dragon specifically scatters the notes ON PURPOSE just to waste your time. PADDING. Because the game has nothing else to do but make you faff about, to borrow a phrase...

because every instance of a quest in this game is either in a new area which is labyrinth [...] OR it's the same area with drastic changes to it including more off-beaten paths different baddies and even whole new sections to explore

Nope. See above. Drastic change? Yes. New baddies? No. New areas? No. This game is an exercise in retreading.

compass in the shape of Fi's dowsing ability

Utterly useless that it is... Oh, I'm not saying it's not functional. It is. I just don't need it. Anyone with a brain shouldn't need it. I've only used it... maybe twice? First out of curiosity... again because I accidentally hit the C button.

obviously the effect of padding is to increase the game's play time with insubstantial long-lasting activities which you've already done adnauseum [...] not for it to be a quick in and out "we really don't want you to dwadle on this part too long because you have the rest of the game to play" section that simply tests your memory like a pop quiz which the only people who would have complained about are [...] the people who are simply want to complain about everything.

Having to hike all the way back to another area for one minor item that I won't ever use again IS padding. It adds no fun to the game. Most egregiously, if I come across an item I know I'm going to need later, I often CAN'T pick it up until the game tells me I have to go ALL THE WAY BACK to pick it up ONLY when the game decides it's time. See the party wheel, the crystal ball, the rattle, etc. And there's no fast travel. If I want to go to another area, I can't just walk there. Nooooo. I have to get to a bird statue, Return to Sky, Yes I'm sure, wait through the same animation every time, waggle waggle waggle to flap/dive/flap, jump into the colored light, yes, I know I can choose my landing area, Fi, Thank you, sit through the falling animation, walk to the item, Yes Fi, call the robot, dialogue dialogue, walk back to a bird statue, Return to Sky, Yes I'm sure, wait through the same animation every time, waggle waggle waggle to flap/dive/flap, jump into the colored light, yes, I know I can choose my landing area, Fi, Thank you, sit through the falling animation, walk to the area I left five minutes ago, and complete the quest. No reward beyond being allowed to continue going forward.

You'll notice I copy/pasted half of that. That's why it's called padding. Because it's the same thing over and over again for no adequate reason.

Zelda is abound as the game masterfully places you at the start of the maze you need to be at

I just love this quote. It's ridiculous and nonsensical. Zelda is abound... with what? As? That doesn't follow "abound". And the game is masterful at putting you at the beginning of mazes? Woo-hoo! What a triumph! They can put you at "START". How clever of them!

That's right, start up any Zelda and quickly notice that all of them are "linear" (which is a holdover from bad FPS games that I hate almost as much as MMOs; see metaphor above) they just trick you into thinking they're not by letting you look at all the areas you COULD be at if you had the proper item [...].

Are you still defending Zelda? So it's masterfully linear... which is a negative holdover... from another unrelated genre? Whaaa?

Skyward Sword removes this illusion by taking out the windows, and suddenly everyone starts crying that the game has been made too straight-forward because they can't waste 10 hours trying to figure out how to get past a post in the ground that they could have gotten passed by just playing the damn game like they normally would

I don't know anyone who's made this complaint. Really. Who are you arguing against here? Yourself, apparently...

Fi is another interesting complaint I hear [...]It's actually a very rare moment when Fi interrupts the gameplay in any significant way due to her text dialogues popping up almost exclusively when you enter into a new area from a doorway or during conversation scenes where you're already engaged in a scene you can't break away from regardless

Ok, I've been nice about this so far, but GRAMMAR. Are you six years old? Do you know what a run-on sentence is? Jesus...

Anyway: So it's a rare moment when she interrupts... except when it happens entering a new area? So either you're admitting that it happens a lot or that there aren't that many new areas. Either way, your statement is backfiring again.

Fi is a horrible, unnecessary character. She adds nothing to the game. In fact, the game would be VASTLY improved if she were removed. Instead of her doing the exposition when you get a new powerup (that I always ignore anyway), just have some mystical voice of the sacred flame or whatever do the explaining. Let the rest of the game do the explaining naturally through character dialogue... WHICH IT DOES ANYWAY. Fi just REPEATS everything you just heard. She provides NO new information.

the only REAL time Fi has to interrupt anything that you might be in the middle of would be with her message about the low battery or the low heart gauge, and both of those you can completely ignore and will go away after roughly five seconds

Five unnecessary, game-interrupting seconds. EVERY TIME.

it makes me wonder how any of these people got through ocarina of time or even could possibly say that they liked Navi more than Fi because Navi's chime is a lot more in your face with "HEY! LISTEN TO ME! I'M IMPORTANT! LINK! HURRY UP! C'MON! TALK TO ME!", with Fi being more like a simple chiming effect that you might not even notice [...]

Because you can just hit A and *poof* there goes the text with Navi. It doesn't gradually scroll across the screen at glacial speed like it does with Fi.

Mr. "I hate everything because it's funnier that way" Yahtzee.

Except he hit the nail on the head with this one. You can't write off his points because you can overlook them or because you don't want to acknowledge them. He's not raging at Zelda without warrant. He's giving it the thrashing it DESERVES. This game is just not very good. Get over it. If you can and you still enjoy it, more power to you.

even your childish antiques of turning this whole Skyward Sword thing into a huge debate

First of all, "childish antiques"? Ha.

Second, he didn't turn it into a debate: the fanboys (and girls, as the case may be) did. He gave Skyward Sword no special treatment and treated it the same as every other game he reviews. And that'll always set off the fanboys...

Any of these arguments can simply be brought down by the fact that you obviously purposely tried NOT to enjoy this game, and right-o you clever wanker, you succeeded. You've successfully forced yourself to play through the entirety of a game you didn't like (or pretended not to like) for the sake of cheap laughs

That's just not true. You know how I know? I felt the same way about Skyward Sword five hours in. And I paid full price for the game. I have nothing to gain from "hating on" the game. I expected a joyous romp through Hyrule... instead, I got this bland, samey mess. Go ahead and disagree with Yahtzee if you feel you must... but don't call him a liar. You've not disproved a single one of his points. You attempted to spin them in a more positive light, yes... but you've not proven he fabricated their existence. Your entire post, like Skyward Sword, has been a massive waste of time for everyone who has had to slog their way through it. And also like Skyward Sword, it could've been done better and shorter, too...

 

[scorptatious]

I just had an epiphany.

My friend owns SS. While at his house two weeks ago I asked him how the controls were. His response was that they were great. He then played a bit while we were waiting for a third person. I watched how he used the controls. What jumped out to me was that all his wiimote motions were slight, minimal, and barely noticable. At the time, I thought that was weird but couldn't put my finger on why. It finally hit me as to what it was.

Every commercial for the wii, every show or movie that has someone playing a wii, every trade show convention that someone is onstage playing a wii shows them making broad, sweeping motions with the wiimote.

Now setting aside the argument on whether or not the controls are responsive enough, if the way my friend was playing is the right way to play (slight, minimal movements), then Nintendo dropped the ball on educating its target user base.

Think about it: there's never been a commercial controller like the wiimote (that I know of). So buyers had to be taught how to use it. How did they learn? By watching the commercials and game demos, both which showed broad movements.

So if the problem people have is that they are being to spastic, that's not really their fault-they're simply doing what they've been taught.

I guess that explains why I never had any issues with the controls while other people did.

 

[sockpuppettherapy]

So aside from the grieving about motion controls, many of the other points make sense. I don't think they're enough to say the game is bad; I actually quite liked Skyward Sword. But to be honest either Yahtzee has some sort of neuromuscular disorder in everything except his thumbs, or his Wii isn't set up correctly, or he's just being a curmudgeon to the point that one should not take his reviews on the matter seriously.

"Fanboys, please defend this."

Okay.

So the first of the many complaints I hear about this game that I've personally deemed unjustifible from my position ontop of my self-appointed throne of gaming-critic-that-doesn't-actually-critique anything is that the game has bad controls...blah blah blah

I refer you to a post I made on the original video. Namely:

"I swing my Wiimote and I get blocked. Link's arm ricochets. Mine doesn't. Mine keeps going. So I have to move my arm back to the starting position before I can re-position my arm for try #2. In doing so, I end up swinging the sword again from the wrong location.

REPEAT.

[/quote]

So first off, I didn't have a delay issue. At all. The controls did work perfectly for me, even the stabbing. Part of this might be that I figured out which movements correctly corresponded with which attacks.

Why are you moving your arm back to correspond with the ricochet? Why not just proceed to slice the other direction? And if you're referring to the electroshock guys, why don't you... don't know, move your arm to the position that he's blocking, then just wait till he moves his arm to a different position before striking?

The flying controls are painful. In the default hand position, it's very difficult to tilt down enough to dive. Wrists don't bend that way. The same goes for bomb rolling. If I want to roll a bomb, I have to move my hand position, point the Wiimote down, then flick and hope the system actually registers it as a flick, not an "I'm returning to neutral position", as it often does.

Don't bend your wrist. Move your forearm downward. If you have a space issue and are sitting on a couch, move yourself to the edge of the seat so you provide yourself with enough space to do so. The problem here appears to be less a controller response problem and more the player having to figure out the correct timing and motion to make the correct action. Critics are more inclined to blame the game for this; others are more inclined to blame the player.

Then there's the harp. I swear I must've played the harp performance about THIRTY times. Every time I started, my hand's position was in a different place... and no matter how carefully I moved my Wiimote, Link's hand would always slide half-way back in the other direction. To clarify:

I swing right -> Link strums right
I hold my arm steady and still at the right -> Link starts strumming BACK TO THE LEFT.
My arm hasn't moved. AT ALL.

How am I supposed to control a game accurately when the controls don't respond to my inputs? It's like playing DDR with a steering wheel!

It means you're not holding your arm steady. I actually never had this problem happen to me. I don't know, it might be a lighting problem in your house or a motor control problem.

Oh yes, and the recalibration. EVERY TIME I use a B-button item (that blowing vase thing, the slingshot, flying scarab thing, etc.), when I press the B-button, the controls orient by where my Wiimote was pointing when I pressed the button... which often means Link's going to be spinning around in circles until I press Down on the D-Pad.

Would ANY of this happen on a traditional controller?

NO. And that's why motion controls SUCK. The End."

Where are your arms when you're using these items?

Now onto the much dreaded topic of the notorious "fetch quests" and "padding" [...] It's not a fetch quest, you loon. A fetch quest is where you're told to go find monster x and kill him y many times, possibly even doing the extra step of bringing back token z drop [...my you do like hearing yourself go on, don't you?...]

Actually, that's not a fetch quest. That's grinding. A fetch quest IS:

"any quest where someone has told you what you need to find"

That. Go there, grab that, and bring it here. I'll give you some sort of compensation for doing so. A fetch quest: defined. How you've gotten it confused with grinding for loot drops is beyond me.

It's not even really padding

Yes it is. It's arbitrarily extending the length of a quest by adding busywork to it. Busywork, might I add, that adds no depth or comparable reward to the quest. Take the Hero's song bit where you have to swim around for the notes. Why? I've got the fully powered up Master Sword already. Why do I have to prove myself AGAIN? It's not like I had to find lost items. The Water Dragon specifically scatters the notes ON PURPOSE just to waste your time. PADDING. Because the game has nothing else to do but make you faff about, to borrow a phrase...

So I agree with this complaint. I think the absolute worst was the Tadtones section that you just described. And I really didn't care for the Hero's Trials. The thing is, these sections don't add much to the overall length of the game. Why there IS padding makes no sense.

But Yahtzee asked someone to defend something such as getting the robot to fill the Frog Mouth with water. And the answer to that is breaking the setting of the game up a bit. You've spent a decent amount of time up to that point doing a Hero's Trial, going through the fire area, and then figuring out and presumably looking around a new section. Take 10 minutes out of your time to go back to a familiar place was their solution.

The thing is that many people didn't find a problem with THIS specific activity, or similar ones. I think part of this might be that it accomplished what it set out to do. For others it was a pain in the neck because of a delay in immediate gratification (i.e. going into the dungeon). I'm more of the former on this specific example.

I suspect the Tadtones and the Hero's Trials are of similar reasoning, but for me those went overboard.

compass in the shape of Fi's dowsing ability

Utterly useless that it is... Oh, I'm not saying it's not functional. It is. I just don't need it. Anyone with a brain shouldn't need it. I've only used it... maybe twice? First out of curiosity... again because I accidentally hit the C button.

obviously the effect of padding is to increase the game's play time with insubstantial long-lasting activities which you've already done adnauseum [...] not for it to be a quick in and out "we really don't want you to dwadle on this part too long because you have the rest of the game to play" section that simply tests your memory like a pop quiz which the only people who would have complained about are [...] the people who are simply want to complain about everything.

Having to hike all the way back to another area for one minor item that I won't ever use again IS padding. It adds no fun to the game. Most egregiously, if I come across an item I know I'm going to need later, I often CAN'T pick it up until the game tells me I have to go ALL THE WAY BACK to pick it up ONLY when the game decides it's time. See the party wheel, the crystal ball, the rattle, etc. And there's no fast travel. If I want to go to another area, I can't just walk there. Nooooo. I have to get to a bird statue, Return to Sky, Yes I'm sure, wait through the same animation every time, waggle waggle waggle to flap/dive/flap, jump into the colored light, yes, I know I can choose my landing area, Fi, Thank you, sit through the falling animation, walk to the item, Yes Fi, call the robot, dialogue dialogue, walk back to a bird statue, Return to Sky, Yes I'm sure, wait through the same animation every time, waggle waggle waggle to flap/dive/flap, jump into the colored light, yes, I know I can choose my landing area, Fi, Thank you, sit through the falling animation, walk to the area I left five minutes ago, and complete the quest. No reward beyond being allowed to continue going forward.

You'll notice I copy/pasted half of that. That's why it's called padding. Because it's the same thing over and over again for no adequate reason.

By your example and definition "sidequests" fall under the category of "padding."

That's right, start up any Zelda and quickly notice that all of them are "linear" (which is a holdover from bad FPS games that I hate almost as much as MMOs; see metaphor above) they just trick you into thinking they're not by letting you look at all the areas you COULD be at if you had the proper item [...].

Are you still defending Zelda? So it's masterfully linear... which is a negative holdover... from another unrelated genre? Whaaa?

I actually liked the linearity of it and removing that illusion. As much as we may want to believe games to be "open sandboxes," including something like Skyrim, there's still a linear course of events that must be accomplished in order to complete the game. Taking that away and making the staged areas more like large dungeons with multiple routes I would call a preference choice rather than an area of criticism.

Fi is another interesting complaint I hear [...]It's actually a very rare moment when Fi interrupts the gameplay in any significant way due to her text dialogues popping up almost exclusively when you enter into a new area from a doorway or during conversation scenes where you're already engaged in a scene you can't break away from regardless

Ok, I've been nice about this so far, but GRAMMAR. Are you six years old? Do you know what a run-on sentence is? Jesus...

Anyway: So it's a rare moment when she interrupts... except when it happens entering a new area? So either you're admitting that it happens a lot or that there aren't that many new areas. Either way, your statement is backfiring again.

Fi is a horrible, unnecessary character. She adds nothing to the game. In fact, the game would be VASTLY improved if she were removed. Instead of her doing the exposition when you get a new powerup (that I always ignore anyway), just have some mystical voice of the sacred flame or whatever do the explaining. Let the rest of the game do the explaining naturally through character dialogue... WHICH IT DOES ANYWAY. Fi just REPEATS everything you just heard. She provides NO new information.

Horrible character? That's a bit overstating it isn't it? Unnecessary? Yeah, I can agree with that. But she felt like a neutral character to me. Navi is the quintessential example of a BAD sidekick, in which she explains absolutely nothing. Fi is... sort of just there. She does give out hints and a small bit of analysis, but again, most of us don't need that, particularly if we've played enough games.

it makes me wonder how any of these people got through ocarina of time or even could possibly say that they liked Navi more than Fi because Navi's chime is a lot more in your face with "HEY! LISTEN TO ME! I'M IMPORTANT! LINK! HURRY UP! C'MON! TALK TO ME!", with Fi being more like a simple chiming effect that you might not even notice [...]

Because you can just hit A and *poof* there goes the text with Navi. It doesn't gradually scroll across the screen at glacial speed like it does with Fi.

But it happens far more often than Fi bothering anyone. The slow scroll text IS a point of criticism, but Navi's constant interruptions are far worse than even Fi complaining about low health, which can be ignored anyway in the middle of things.

Mr. "I hate everything because it's funnier that way" Yahtzee.

Except he hit the nail on the head with this one. You can't write off his points because you can overlook them or because you don't want to acknowledge them. He's not raging at Zelda without warrant. He's giving it the thrashing it DESERVES. This game is just not very good. Get over it. If you can and you still enjoy it, more power to you.

even your childish antiques of turning this whole Skyward Sword thing into a huge debate

First of all, "childish antiques"? Ha.

Second, he didn't turn it into a debate: the fanboys (and girls, as the case may be) did. He gave Skyward Sword no special treatment and treated it the same as every other game he reviews. And that'll always set off the fanboys...

Any of these arguments can simply be brought down by the fact that you obviously purposely tried NOT to enjoy this game, and right-o you clever wanker, you succeeded. You've successfully forced yourself to play through the entirety of a game you didn't like (or pretended not to like) for the sake of cheap laughs

That's just not true. You know how I know? I felt the same way about Skyward Sword five hours in. And I paid full price for the game. I have nothing to gain from "hating on" the game. I expected a joyous romp through Hyrule... instead, I got this bland, samey mess. Go ahead and disagree with Yahtzee if you feel you must... but don't call him a liar. You've not disproved a single one of his points. You attempted to spin them in a more positive light, yes... but you've not proven he fabricated their existence. Your entire post, like Skyward Sword, has been a massive waste of time for everyone who has had to slog their way through it. And also like Skyward Sword, it could've been done better and shorter, too...

In Yahtzee's case, he's obviously pushing buttons to get people riled up. He knows what he's doing. In most cases, as much as he has the same criticism of Zelda games being the same thing, I'm inclined to think that he actually DOES like the game, which sort of levels at this "love it/hate it" dichotomy. But at the same time, this was a Zelda that he simply didn't like.

I sort of look at him the same way I look at Robert Christgau: You look at relevant criticisms that he points out, but ignore much of the rest, mostly because the reviews are often rife with subjective criticisms that must supplement his tastes and no others.

Well, except motion controls. I never had problems with them and prefer them in many instances (Twilight Princess included). Then again, I don't waggle my wrist and move my entire forearm.

 

[I Max95]

i love Skyward Sword, it may not be my favorite game but it's certainly in the top 10

i dont see what all the fuss is about honestly. the controls work fine, at least for me, at best their precise controls that reward reflexes, at worst their just waggling, which i dont mind. they fail occasionally but nothing a quick recalibration doesnt fix. above all else the punishments for failure were never that immense, sure i tried swinging horizontally but ended up hitting an electrical stun gun, but i only lost one heart, and with a quick search around my hearts are back up again

as for the lack of more than three areas to explore, i honestly didnt mind. the traditional structure of Zelda games is to go to a new area, talk to a few people, and then tackle the local dungeon. but in Skyward Sword the lines were blurred, the way i saw it, the entirety of the surface was a dungeon, with puzzles to be solved, areas to explore, and treasures to find. sure other Zelda games had huge open maps but the space was an illusion. there was nothing, nothing to do in those huge sandboxes except kill monsters while on the way to the next enclosed area. especially in Wind Waker, where 90 percent of the map is just water, you spend most of your time sitting on your boat waiting for it to reach your destination. Skyward Sword has the sky area but if you spend more than 2 minutes flying to your destination, your playing it wrong.

and of course there is the tired old argument that all the games are basically alike. but in reality they arent, in every one of them the details are different. the hero has to save the princess, by collecting a list of objects, found in several dungeons across the land. from a story stand point, that is where the similarities end. every game has new puzzles, new obstacles. every Zelda game is basically a Reboot of the last one, all of them self contained stories, with gameplay that always brings something new to the table.

but that's just my opinion, i still enjoyed Yatzhee's review of the game, as well as this. i just disagree with every part of it (except for Fi, i agree 100 percent about Fi)

 

[DarthFennec]

So the controls worked properly MOST of the time. If you had been using a standard controller, they would have worked ALL of the time.

I was never comparing it to a standard controller. All I said was that they worked great 90% of the time, which is pretty much unheard of for a Wii game. Even though they didn't work as well as they might have if we were using something other than a Wiimote, Skyward Sword is still some of the best and most fluid use of the Wiimote I've ever seen. And I think that's a positive.

 

[Epona]

So the controls worked properly MOST of the time. If you had been using a standard controller, they would have worked ALL of the time.

I was never comparing it to a standard controller. All I said was that they worked great 90% of the time, which is pretty much unheard of for a Wii game. Even though they didn't work as well as they might have if we were using something other than a Wiimote, Skyward Sword is still some of the best and most fluid use of the Wiimote I've ever seen. And I think that's a positive.

Ok, well people who are complaining about the controls probably are comparing it to standard controllers and let's face it, the Wii Mote is inferior to standard controllers. Ever try playing with the sun shining in?

 

[Nate-ndo]

While it is impossible for the controls to be as bad as Yahtzee/GameSpot/etc claim and still have the majority of players/reviewers say they work near flawlessly, it's entirely possible for the controls to work near flawlessly but have a handful of players that merely suck at using them and blame the controls and not the operator. I don't think it's impossible to believe that there are a number of gamers who lack the physical reflexes/hand-eye coordination to be successful with motion controls.

Yes, that's right, I'm going there. It's the only explanation that reconciles the differences other than claiming that the majority is simply lying about their experiences.

Wow. So people that have played shooters and platforms successfully on other systems now "lack the physical reflexes/hand-eye coordination" to play wii games. That is probably the most absurd explaination I've ever heard.

I have a different theory: You have cognitive disonance and are ready to excuse and ignore any flaw because it's easier than admitting your tribe is not the best that's out there.

I'm not just talking out of my ass. I bought into the excitement for Master of Orion 3, a game now universally considered so bad it killed the franchise. I bought the game on release and for 2-3 weeks I was convinced that it was the greatest game of all time. Eventually, the flaws were so obvious I just couldn't ignore them (or more accurately, I stopped playing for a while and realized I had absolutely no desire to start playing again).

Now, MoO3 is an undead fetus next to Skyward Sword, so that's not the comparison I'm trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is that the human brain will go to great lengths to justify, excuse, and ignore any fact that contradicts what it has beforehand established as a fundamental truth.

Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolution," explores the phenomenon in greater detail, but it's the basis for why people hold onto opinions that in hindsight seem irrational. It's why a man as brilliant as Einstein could refuse to accept Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle because "God does not play dice."

You've missed the point by a wide margin. My point is that it's impossible for the controls to work (as claimed by about 90% of reviews) and to also not work as claimed by the others. There are only two two explanations 1) one of the groups is lying (tinfoil hat) or 2) that they do work but some subset of players will fail at using them. It's perfectly reasonable to criticize the decision to use controls that some won't excel at, but to claim they don't work or are laggy is dishonest. There's no feasible explanation to how I (or IGN, or Edge, or Eurogamer, etc) played for 40 hours and believe the controls work if that is truly not the case.

 

[sockpuppettherapy]

Does Yahtzee normally complain about dual analog controls for FPSes? Because if anything, THOSE are decidedly poor controls compared to keyboard and mouse or (funny enough) motion controls.

 

[Nate-ndo]

While it is impossible for the controls to be as bad as Yahtzee/GameSpot/etc claim and still have the majority of players/reviewers say they work near flawlessly, it's entirely possible for the controls to work near flawlessly but have a handful of players that merely suck at using them and blame the controls and not the operator. I don't think it's impossible to believe that there are a number of gamers who lack the physical reflexes/hand-eye coordination to be successful with motion controls.

Yes, that's right, I'm going there. It's the only explanation that reconciles the differences other than claiming that the majority is simply lying about their experiences.

Wow. So people that have played shooters and platforms successfully on other systems now "lack the physical reflexes/hand-eye coordination" to play wii games. That is probably the most absurd explaination I've ever heard.

I have a different theory: You have cognitive disonance and are ready to excuse and ignore any flaw because it's easier than admitting your tribe is not the best that's out there.

I'm not just talking out of my ass. I bought into the excitement for Master of Orion 3, a game now universally considered so bad it killed the franchise. I bought the game on release and for 2-3 weeks I was convinced that it was the greatest game of all time. Eventually, the flaws were so obvious I just couldn't ignore them (or more accurately, I stopped playing for a while and realized I had absolutely no desire to start playing again).

Now, MoO3 is an undead fetus next to Skyward Sword, so that's not the comparison I'm trying to make. The point I'm trying to make is that the human brain will go to great lengths to justify, excuse, and ignore any fact that contradicts what it has beforehand established as a fundamental truth.

Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolution," explores the phenomenon in greater detail, but it's the basis for why people hold onto opinions that in hindsight seem irrational. It's why a man as brilliant as Einstein could refuse to accept Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle because "God does not play dice."

You've missed the point by a wide margin. My point is that it's impossible for the controls to work (as claimed by about 90% of reviews) and to also not work as claimed by the others. There are only two two explanations 1) one of the groups is lying (tinfoil hat) or 2) that they do work but some subset of players will fail at using them. It's perfectly reasonable to criticize the decision to use controls that some won't excel at, but to claim they don't work or are laggy is dishonest. There's no feasible explanation to how I (or IGN, or Edge, or Eurogamer, etc) played for 40 hours and believe the controls work if that is truly not the case.

I think you fail to understand that the criteria for "working" will very case by case. Some people are just more demanding. For example, when something calls itself and claims to give you "control" I do not expect it to make me compromise on what was supposed to already be established. If a device is designed to let me control something, I expect it be effective at giving me the maximum amount of control possible. If however, it does not give me 100% control, it is defective and has failed in it's only purpose.

I suppose a lot of people are not as stringent as me in their demands of a controller, yet I suspect it is in part due to their familiarity to previous incarnations of faulty controlling devices

And I agree with what that other guy said. Cognitive dissonance, you have it.

Just so we're clear, you're claiming that the vast majority of players and reviewers that said the controls worked adequately and as intended are confused and/or lying, correct? Cognitive dissonance is claiming that the controls didn't work, and none of us noticed but finished the game anyway even with broken controls. I suppose we willed the game into completion.

Also, your post suggests that you think it's more believable that the controls are broken and 9/10 players simply didn't notice than it is that the controls are fine but 1/10 players sucked but would rather fault the game than themselves.