'Slut' Parade

[Queen Michael]

I think you've totally missed the point of the article, I support them on this. They should be able to choose how they dress without the worry of being raped.

Looks like they've missed the point too.
There was a thread on a similar topic recently, so I'll just re-post what I put there for my thoughts on the topic:

A guy is walking through a rough neighbourhood waving a wad of cash around, and he gets mugged.
Now, obviously the one who mugged the guy is in the wrong 100%. That was illegal, and he should be punished.
And the guy should have the right to wave around money as much as he wants without fear of being attacked and robbed. But it's a naive and dangerous game to play. Ideally, I should be able to leave my doors unlocked, my keys in my car, and my money on my counter. But it's asking for trouble if I do any of those things.

Again, not my fault if someone robs me. I have the right to leave my door unlocked, my money out, and my keys in my car. But, at the risk of sounding redundant, it's dangerously naive to do any of those things.

First, congratulations on your 6000th post.

Second, thank you for pointing out this misnomer. It can be said that a woman who dresses provocatively put herself into the situation to be sexually assaulted, however that doesn't make the assault any less wrong.

I get your point, but I disagree; the comparison doesn't work. Why do you rob a man? Because by waving his cash around he showed that there was money in it for anyone willing to try to rob him. You wouldn't know it otherwise. And why do you go into a house and steal the valuables? Because the owner didn't bother to lock the door, so it was extra easy to get in there and take it. But let's say that Sally Fictional takes a stroll late in the evening in sexy clothing. Does this show that there's something in it for a rapist? Of course not; what the rapist wants is her vagina; sexy clothing or not, potential rapists know that she has one, what with her being one of them womenfolk and all. Does the sexy clothing make her extra easy to rape? Not really. So none of these analogies make sense.

 

[AgentNein]

*snip*

Isn't the point of protests idealism?

No.
Well, not if I'm protesting, least-ways.
If you're protesting strictly for idealism then you're wasting your time.

A few people walking along a street isn't going to change thousands of years of human nature. Rape is one of humanity's oldest crimes to itself, and it isn't going away because a few proud-to-be-scantily-clad women walk together and hold signs.

You don't have to convince me that rape is horrific, and should be stopped.
Marches by women holding 'proud slut' signs aren't the solution. At all.

These signs aren't trying to stop rape. They're protesting the idea that "if women don't want to be raped, they shouldn't dress like sluts". Which is a silly and offensive idea.

 

[Harbinger_]

I think you've totally missed the point of the article, I support them on this. They should be able to choose how they dress without the worry of being raped.

I agree mainly because I feel that rape should be something non-existent.

Also the picture of the stupid woman holding the sign saying don't tell us how to dress tell men not to rape seems to be unaware of the fact that having a vagina means you can rape people as well.

 

[Lilani]

I get your point, but I disagree; the comparison doesn't work. Why do you rob a man? Because by waving his cash around he showed that there was money in it for anyone willing to try to rob him. You wouldn't know it otherwise. And why do you go into a house and steal the valuables? Because the owner didn't bother to lock the door, so it was extra easy to get in there and take it. But let's say that Sally Fictional takes a stroll late in the evening in sexy clothing. Does this show that there's something in it for a rapist? Of course not; what the rapist wants is her vagina; sexy clothing or not, potential rapists know that she has one, what with her being one of them womenfolk and all. Does the sexy clothing make her extra easy to rape? Not really. So none of these analogies make sense.

This image [http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/52627000/jpg/_52627183_protest.jpg] from the article tells me that they are fighting the stigma that women who dress "slutty" and get raped somehow deserve what they got. Or at the very least, shouldn't be able to call it rape.

But that is where that argument no longer makes sense. As you said, a woman's likelihood to get raped is almost completely based on her having a vagina, not how she dresses. And the same thing goes for thieves in an analogy.

My grandfather has a saying: "A lock only exists to keep an honest man honest." Because, in truth, if someone wants to rob a house, they're going to do it whether or not the door is locked. Their intention to rob the house is based on getting to the items inside, not on the fact that the door is unlocked.

See the connection? The women are being perceived as unlocked doors.

 

[Lesd3vil]

Ok, I get the sexism thing and how they were pissed off about this; but from what I've always thought about the word, the definition of 'slut' is a sexually promiscuous woman.

Now I have no problem with women being free and open with their sexuality, but I do have a problem with the idea that a victim is not at all at fault in any situation. If I walked into a group of black men and shouted 'N****rs!' at the top of my lungs I'd get torn apart, and I'd deserve it. Likewise, if a woman wears next to nothing, gets absolutely hammered then makes the incredibly bad decision to walk down a dark alleyway, or get in a taxi with three men she only just met, or something equally stupid... Are you telling me you honestly believe that at least part of the blame for whatever happens next doesn't lie at her feet?

Don't get me wrong. Forcing yourself on another person without their consent is wrong in my opinion, but you need to realise there are situations where it is not as simple as 'she's right and he's wrong'. Both parties are to blame!

In other situations, yes, the victim may not be to blame. A killer may just snap and go for the first person he sees, for example. But unfortunately the fact is - and this doesn't just apply to rape - if you put yourself in a position where you can be made into a victim, at least part of the blame belongs to you when you become one.

I am NOT trying to excuse rapists. What I'm trying to point out is that if you're stupid enough to put yourself in harm's way you need to realise that you made a mistake, accept that, and learn from it, before it happens again... And again.. And again.

The way the police said what they said was sexist and insensitive, yes, but the POINT they were trying to get across isn't. It's about making the right decisions to keep yourself safe. You know there are immoral people out there, don't make it easy for them!

 

[AgentNein]

Couple of problems here, number one everybody seems to assume that women are raped more frequently when they wear "sluttier clothes". No one I have seen has backed this up with statistical evidence. In fact, I'd say this assumption betrays the idea that the rapist is somehow understandable in his actions. I mean look at her! Shaking her ass, wearing revealing clothes, how can these men control themselves?!

Again, I'd love to see some statistical evidence here.

First: I'm not saying that, objectively, rape victims are always slutty dressers.
It wouldn't surprise me to see that numbers are solid on date-rape cases where women dressed provocatively, but I can't say that as fact. I don't have said numbers.

This is the main problem I'm having. A LOT of people are making big assumptions without having the numbers.

I mean, you seem like an intelligent person. How many times have we seen "common sense" shown to be fallacious once statistical evidence has been brought to light?

 

[Retardinator]

But what is inherently wrong about advertising something that you are proud of? You make the act sound as if it's a negative thing.

Maybe it's not a negative thing, but often when you boast about something it makes you look bloated. Perhaps not in this case, but it still enforces negative feedback (like mine). I, personally, take all sorts of collective pride displays negatively.

Maybe if people started telling you to be shamed by these aspects of yourself for no good reason you'd be more apt to express your pride of who you are in public.

I'd pay them no mind, as always, because I know how much MY personal achievements mean to ME. Besides, you're on a gaming lifestyle forum. You should have had at least one experience when somebody looked down on you for the things you do. Have you grabbed a banner that said "Game=/=Shame" and ran out with it?

 

[Queen Michael]

Couple of problems here, number one everybody seems to assume that women are raped more frequently when they wear "sluttier clothes". No one I have seen has backed this up with statistical evidence. In fact, I'd say this assumption betrays the idea that the rapist is somehow understandable in his actions. I mean look at her! Shaking her ass, wearing revealing clothes, how can these men control themselves?!

Again, I'd love to see some statistical evidence here.

First: I'm not saying that, objectively, rape victims are always slutty dressers.
It wouldn't surprise me to see that numbers are solid on date-rape cases where women dressed provocatively, but I can't say that as fact. I don't have said numbers.

This is the main problem I'm having. A LOT of people are making big assumptions without having the numbers.

I mean, you seem like an intelligent person. How many times have we seen "common sense" shown to be fallacious once statistical evidence has been brought to light?

Exactly one-hundred and sixty-three times.

 

[Daverson]

There's a great term for this sort of thing. I don't want to offend anyone, but it rhymes with "Mucking Befarded"...

Ok, if you read between the lines, it's quite obvious what's happened here. Some girl's decided to dress slutty for a date. Decided at the last moment she's not going to put out, and the guy, being [Drunk/High/A Complete Cuntwad] (delete as appropriate) has decided he's not having it, and gone through with it anyway. Daddy gets called, charges are pressed, and the matter should end there.

Of course, the police say something sensible, like "perhaps if you don't dress like a slut, people won't treat you like a slut". Which makes sense, when you think about it. I mean, if you dress like a businessman, people treat you like a businessman (btw, try it sometime! it's fun!). And then, things get stupid.

So, someone, somewhere, reads the statement, they misconstrue it entirely, rather than seeing it as "slut == whore", seeing it as "my mum told me not to go out dressed like that because I looked like a slut and now the police are telling me to do it, gawd, my gender studies professor who been divorces, like, 6 times, so she knows about men, told me this would happen! It's oppression!". Then they post it on their blog, then someone else reads it, they post it, and we get a cycle of rumours until the point the original case is completely forgotten and it's just "the police say if you dress immodestly you will be raped."

Who do I blame? No one, to be honest. Unfortunately, as humans, we're pretty much built to be stupid. And before you say "Hurr, not me, I'm the smart one", I know at some point you've walked into a glass door. Don't try to deny it...

 

[Gigano]

...so we don't like women who embrace their sexuality and are generally up for some naughty fun?

Must have missed that memo.

Also, I really like the "blame the victim"-mentality and puritanical condemnation of the sexual liberation in western societies (as opposed to any admirable ethical purity in all the human rights abusing second and third world dictatorships???) going on in the OP.

 

[AgentNein]

Maybe if people started telling you to be shamed by these aspects of yourself for no good reason you'd be more apt to express your pride of who you are in public.

I'd pay them no mind, as always, because I know how much MY personal achievements mean to ME. Besides, you're on a gaming lifestyle forum. You should have had at least one experience when somebody looked down on you for the things you do. Have you grabbed a banner that said "Game=/=Shame" and ran out with it?

To answer your question if I honestly felt that me getting shit about being a gamer (which oddly enough I've never really gotten shit about) was as big of an issues as institutionalized sexism then yes, I'd wear my pride on my sleeve and throw up a sign somewhere with other people.

 

[guntotingtomcat]

Guy sleeps around = stud, considered normal, even praiseworthy

Girl sleeps around = OMFG SLUT BURN FOR IT!

Seems unfair.
Besides, the only person to blame in a case of rape is the fucking rapist.

 

[newwiseman]

Yes, sluts should be able to dress they way they want without being raped, and I should be able to wear the colors I want without being shot at... Same diff.

 

[BrionJames]

*snip*

Isn't the point of protests idealism?

No.
Well, not if I'm protesting, least-ways.
If you're protesting strictly for idealism then you're wasting your time.

A few people walking along a street isn't going to change thousands of years of human nature. Rape is one of humanity's oldest crimes to itself, and it isn't going away because a few proud-to-be-scantily-clad women walk together and hold signs.

You don't have to convince me that rape is horrific, and should be stopped.
Marches by women holding 'proud slut' signs aren't the solution. At all.

Well done sir. I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Considering men are actually praised for that kind of behaiviour I don't see a problem with it.

 

[Jonathan Bradford]

Guy sleeps around = stud, considered normal, even praiseworthy

Girl sleeps around = OMFG SLUT BURN FOR IT!

Seems unfair.
Besides, the only person to blame in a case of rape is the fucking rapist.

It is unfair, and sadly has been that way for many many years. I doubt the Slutwalks will change the image though.

 

[gazumped]

Much as I think the Slutwalk premise is a fairly noble one...
Holding up a sign saying "Sluts say yes" doesn't seem to fit in with the "Just because I dress like a / am a slut doesn't mean I can't say no" point of these marches.

Just an unfortunate lack of sensibleness in that particular placard maker's logic, I think.

But, yeah, the most disgusting part of the whole "women shouldn't dress provocatively" thing is that the victims do sometimes get made to feel that it was their fault in some way. Some victims report being asked by the police things like what they were wearing and even what underwear they had on at the time of the incident and such information can sway the jury into deciding whether it was rape or if she was asking for it. There's an interesting (and upsetting) chapter on it in a book called Appearance and Power.

Would you feel sorry for someone who got mugged when they were walking down a rough neighborhood with cash strapped all over them?
So then why feel sorry for a girl who goes out wearing close to nothing and will be around drunken guys?

A person leaving their wallet exposed may be taking a risk, but only because there are a**holes out there who would take it. It's not that person's fault that someone was mean enough to take it and I'd feel sorry for them. And certainly the thief ought to be arrested.
But a wallet is a bit different than a body. That theft victim's had an inconvenience, the rape victim's had a horrifying experience, they've been attacked and violated and it will affect them deeply, psychologically for a long time.
Telling the theft victim they're partially to blame for losing some money might be annoying for them, telling the rape victim they're partially to blame for losing their dignity, security and rights over their own body is far, far more horrible.

 

[plank_man180]

Tits or GTFO.


...


...Joke! I think it's ridiculous in my opinion. Why boast that you're a slut? What a terrible role model for a naive younger generation. I think it's true that no one has any self respect any more.

 

[Jimbo1212]

You don't, but then again, isn't looks subjective?

I mean, I know people who can actually make the whole tracksuit look good. That costs about a tener.

Clearly, people enjoy looking good their way, and the police officers comments were stupid.

Actually looks are not subjective - go check out google scholar if you don't believe me. Regardless, they are still reckless in their actions and are trying to blame anyone but themselves for when it goes wrong.

Why was the officers comment stupid?

...so we don't like women who embrace their sexuality and are generally up for some naughty fun?

Must have missed that memo.

Also, I really like the "blame the victim"-mentality and puritanical condemnation of the sexual liberation in western societies (as opposed to any admirable ethical purity in all the discriminatory second and third world dictatorships???) going on in the OP.

When did being a slut = embracing being a woman? Being a slut is not healthy and is not something someone should aspire to be.
As for 'blaming the victim' , where is that happening? The officer simply gave advice on how to avoid the problem yet women have come out screaming in fear that advice is the same as remving their right.....

 

[Retardinator]

To answer your question if I honestly felt that me getting shit about being a gamer (which oddly enough I've never really gotten shit about) was as big of an issues as institutionalized sexism then yes, I'd wear my pride on my sleeve and throw up a sign somewhere with other people.

Good point. Now allow me to contemplate for a while if I'd do the same.
(Gosh, I hate when I turn out like a single-minded ass...)