Smaller Devs Abused By Steam's "No Questions Asked" Refund Policy

[elvor0]

I think this policy is shit.

The internet is horrible and you all know it, and everyone here is brushing off the fact that this platform is set up to be abused, which will lead to more anti-consumer trends to try fight it.

But again, /why/ would you abuse this situation? Why not just pirate? If I fully intended to play and return from the start, why would I bugger around with the steam refund policy and wait for my money to come back when I could just set sail to the pirate bay

In every other business transaction, people have the ability to request a refund, so why are games speshul?

It's also worth noting how mindlessly easy it is to pirate a game that you want. I guess this is more directed to @Elijin

Piracy has gotten to the point where it's "Click click done." A smaller game takes seconds to download. Starbound, which is massive compared to the games affected took me 10 minutes to download via Steam, and Steam is much, much lower than an effectively seeded torrent.

Why would you rely on the refund system, when A. You have a time limit, and B. it's attached to your steam account (Remember, it says on the refunds page that abuse will lead to the revocation of your refund rights!) when you can download the game for free, and not have to worry about either options? You can play the game forever, with all the content (in most cases) still available to you risk free?

Finally, take a look at both of the games mentioned. These games... Should not be on the PC.

Gamers are alarmingly petty.

Thats the short version.

Its also the long version, but more colourfully worded.

That's your answer as to why people wouldn't just pirate a game? Petty=/=displeased with the product. Why shouldn't we have the right to a refund if the game didn't meet decent standards? Fuck, I paid £2 for Risen 2 and I would've still asked for my money back if the refunds policy would've been implemented then, that's not petty, that's telling a developer I'm not going to stand for being sold sub-par products.

This is my answer to why Steams system is stupid.

I have no problem with refunds. Where I live, steam was strongarmed into giving refunds years ago, because its the law.

I think this execution on steam, is right for abuse by petty gamers with minor gripes. The fact that Steam offers refunds in EU, AU and UK, and was at around 1%, yet immediately jumped to 17% this quickly, only serves to reinforce my beliefs.

Your point is now that its possible to get a refund, refunds have increased? Bugger me!

Of course it's jumped, because now it's actually easy in the EU/AU and possible at all in the US/elsewhere to /get/ a refund in the first place. The US and elsewhere were unable to get refunds, and even then, going through the EU regulations takes a lot of effort, Valve did not give refunds lightly. Now? Well you can just request a refund no questions asked.

The US is a biiiig place, and makes up a large chunk of Steams userbase, now that it's possible for them to request refunds, of course the percentage is going to increase. Nevermind the people who don't know that it was possible to use EU/AU law to request a refund. More so, this doesn't state why the system is stupid, it states that the people using it are petty, not that it's stupid. It's no different than 7 day returns policy for pretty much everything else.

 

[jklinders]

*sigh*
this proves nothing.

There is only one surefire way to prevent a majority of your customers from asking for refunds. Make your product good enough for someone to want to keep. There is only so much handholding that you an give people and if these people refuse to understand that people want value for money spent then too bad.

this is not about it being "make the game longer lol and this won't happen," it's more like if you give an experience people want to keep, they won't want to throw it back in your face.

Seriously, the amount of salt I am seeing put out over this is making me want to open a salt mine here.

 

[Ticklefist]

Maybe more people will consider putting their games on GOG and Humble now, sans Steam codes. I'd be happy about that.

If a dev isnt willing to stand behind a money back guarantee then chances are they have no confidence in thier creation in the first place.

Hence, nothing of value lost.

If game companies and indie devs were willing to lose money we wouldn't be talking about Steam codes in the first place. They use Steam DRM to maximize profits. Games still exist if they're not on Steam so of course nothing of value is lost

 

[Ticklefist]

I'll reiterate my point:

I'm talking about the game companies and developers that hide under Steam as a DRM umbrella. It would be nice if this move made them realize how pointless that is and began to make their games available elsewhere.

 

[Lunar Templar]

yeah, no.

It's way to early to call this 'data' concrete evidence for or against this new system.

It just is.

Comeback in a month or two then, hit us with some real numbers, not this misleading 'poor, poor us, pity us' fabricated shit that seems designed to take try and get Steam to reverse and take away a basic consumer right.

 

[gigastar]

Maybe more people will consider putting their games on GOG and Humble now, sans Steam codes. I'd be happy about that.

If a dev isnt willing to stand behind a money back guarantee then chances are they have no confidence in thier creation in the first place.

Hence, nothing of value lost.

If game companies and indie devs were willing to lose money we wouldn't be talking about Steam codes in the first place. They use Steam DRM to maximize profits. Games still exist if they're not on Steam so of course nothing of value is lost

When i made that post, i completely forgot that GoG also has a refund policy in place, so i highly doubt that any dev that eschews Steam over the refund policy will end up on GoG. Or Origin, for that matter.

And its been pointed out in the thread, the dev mentioned in the 'article' is raising a fuss over about $18 lost revenue, and thier drop in sales on thier fancy graph actually coincides with thier game going off sale.

And a few hours ago TotalBiscuit made this Tumblr post [http://devsonsteamrefunds.tumblr.com/] showing that far more inde devs are in favour of the policy than there are against it, including developers of far better inde experiences like Sunless Sea, War for the Overworld, Hero Generations, Ziggurat and more.

 

[Ticklefist]

Nevermind. Made my point already.

 

[gigastar]

Sigh... GOG does not have a no-questions-asked refund policy. Look it up before you say it does again. I also don't care that Steam does. I think that's great. Hopefully it means greedy companies and developers who had used Steam as a DRM umbrella will realize that's no longer going to matter and just release their game everywhere.

I can tell I'm gonna have to say it again.

Well i wouldnt actually know about GoG because i dont use it. I see no reason to do so.

And i only spotted your other post after i posted my reply. If you had made that clear in your first post or in your reply to me you would have saved us both a few minuites of our lives.

Also Steam as a DRM umbrella is a fallacy, its simply far easier to get onto Steam than it is to get onto GoG. Thats why Steam gets all the asset pack 'games' and publishers like Strategy First.

 

[Ticklefist]

Also Steam as a DRM umbrella is a fallacy, its simply far easier to get onto Steam than it is to get onto GoG. Thats why Steam gets all the asset pack 'games' and publishers like Strategy First.

No way is that a fallacy. You've simply found an exception. Why does it matter to you if games are available from more than one Source anyways?

 

[gigastar]

Also Steam as a DRM umbrella is a fallacy, its simply far easier to get onto Steam than it is to get onto GoG. Thats why Steam gets all the asset pack 'games' and publishers like Strategy First.

No way is that a fallacy. You've simply found an exception. Why does it matter to you if games are available from more than one Source anyways?

It doesnt. I simply dont understand people who eschew the superior platform just because it spends a few moments verifying your installation before launch.

 

[BeerTent]

It's also worth noting how mindlessly easy it is to pirate a game that you want. I guess this is more directed to @Elijin [...]

Finally, take a look at both of the games mentioned. These games... Should not be on the PC.

Gamers are alarmingly petty.

Thats the short version.

Its also the long version, but more colourfully worded.

This.

This is the exact mentality we don't want our developers to have. The exact mentality that a lot of people are kind of tired of.

Gamers will just pirate it anyway.

Gamers will just exploit our game.

Gamers will just DDOS us to the ground.

Gamers will just abuse our money systems.

Gamers are sheep.

Gamers are stupid.

Gamers are petty.

Now, there are some things I'm inclined to agree with. How now-so-bright people can be when it comes to pre-ordering and Early Access. But the greater population is kind of tired of this mentality that AAA developers have been giving us, as well as a small handful of indie devs. The few ruin it for the many, right? But the methods use to combat these are very, very anti-consumer. It starts with DRM. Then it escalates to not delivering promised features, preventing legitimate customers from playing a product they paid for, and stripping away consumer rights. Pretty fucking basic ones too.

Another thing that seems to get me about your post is that you seem to state it as if it were lack and white. When your half my age, you tend to realize pretty quick that the world aint black and white. Nothing is. All obvious varying shades of gray. If you really think this way, you're too young to be making a statement, or I'm missing something big in your statement.

This policy is hurting people... Yes. It's hurting people who shouldn't be on the platform. And it's really, really going to hurt people who are in dire need of getting whacked by the quality control hammer. And people who should have had other things done to them, but can't because of an outdated international law and other consumer rights being stripped away. Make no mistake, the people who are complaining about this haven't delivered anything of use to their customers. They have not delivered a product that justifies the price. They're either in the wrong platform, or they have delivered something that is not fun to the greater community. What's the next article going to be about this? This shill complaining about his sales? [http://store.steampowered.com/app/370100/] Maybe when these developers do some real work, we'll take this bellyaching seriously. [https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/26912]

But my biggest question to you, well... It isn't one that I asked.

[...]In every other business transaction, people have the ability to request a refund, so why are games speshul?

 

[Ticklefist]

Also Steam as a DRM umbrella is a fallacy, its simply far easier to get onto Steam than it is to get onto GoG. Thats why Steam gets all the asset pack 'games' and publishers like Strategy First.

No way is that a fallacy. You've simply found an exception. Why does it matter to you if games are available from more than one Source anyways?

It doesnt. I simply dont understand people who eschew the superior platform just because it spends a few moments verifying your installation before launch.

Battle.net?

I kid. No that's not my problem with Steam. My problem is Valve and how everything is monetized, even your profile background. Even this cool new refund policy. There's no arguing it's great, but I wonder if it was put in place to reduce the amount of lost sales to sites like Greenman, Getgames, and Gamersgate.

 

[Redflash]

What the hell is wrong with some people (i.e. the ones going 'so what?') on this forum? Because a game doesn't take long to complete or doesn't have replay value, then people are somehow justified in shilling a game dev of 2 bucks? TWO DOLLARS. You're willing to steal (yes, steal, you got the experience and your money) for two dollars, and then justify it to yourself? Lets call a sheep a sheep here. You knew when you bought it that it wasn't a long game, or that the production values weren't going to be stellar. Nobody is buying a two dollar game and then going 'my god, this isn't what I was led to believe at all!'. This is just mean-spiritedness at it's worst and anyone defending ripping off small-time content creators seriously needs to rethink their life in general and their values in particular.

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

Doing this buy/refund instantly thing maliciously is easier if you just pirate.

This is like piracy for internet newbs I swear. At least with torrents, you don't get your steam account banned and you don't troll developers with your money.

Honestly I see this as a good thing cause now devs will struggle to over-price their games out of avarice lest they wish a wave of refunds. If someone honestly doesn't see the value in a brief experience, then they're not up to judgement, the developer is.

As an example: I don't see Gone Home as particularly worth my money, whereas The Stanley Parable definitely is. The latter runs a whole gamut of themes, discussions and perspectives in the space of an afternoon, whereas the former is just a story in a house, little more than a 3D art gallery like Mountain(which is a literal 3D art gallery and I duly believe does not deserve to charge money for its collection of scripts).

 

[Bindal]

What the hell is wrong with some people (i.e. the ones going 'so what?') on this forum? Because a game doesn't take long to complete or doesn't have replay value, then people are somehow justified in shilling a game dev of 2 bucks? TWO DOLLARS. You're willing to steal (yes, steal, you got the experience and your money) for two dollars, and then justify it to yourself?

So you rather want me to loose on money I would not consider worthwhile spend? Honestly, no. If I think that the game I purchased wasn't worth the money, then it wasn't worth the money and I want said money back. And if the reason I thought so is because I could beat it in less than two hours and have no reason from the game itself to play it again, then that's the reason why I don't consider it money worth spend and hence want said money back. Plain and simple.

 

[F-I-D-O]

I like how the developers compared refund percentages when refunds were almost impossible to get it, difficult to pursue, and had an unspoken rule of "you get one, then deal." Don't get me wrong, a 17% refund rate is high, but comparing it to numbers when a refund was practically impossible is only misleading to your audience.
This also doesn't take into account people buying a cheap game to test out the refund system itself, as people might with a cheap mobile port that won't lose them much if something messes up and they have to keep it. I'd be more interested in the states come October than the stats a week from the line.
Valve did claim that they will crackdown on people repeatedly abusing the system, so that's something that still needs to be seen in the longer term.
Oh, and if your game doesn't have more than an hour of content (Beyond Gravity), Steam's just not the right platform for 9/10 users. And GSB/GTB are very in-depth, good simulation games. Also very good spreadsheet simulators, which people might not be eager to try without a safety net from the steam refund. I'd imagine Paradox strategy games will also have a spike in refund claims during the Summer Sale since people might want to try the well-reviewed and regarded games, and realize they just don't like the management aspect as much as the subject matter interested them.

 

[dragoongfa]

How do we even know there is a problem? You can't judge that by looking at the amount of refunds because it stands to reason that now that Steams refund policy is so liberal, more people will be checking out games that they wouldn't have wanted to risk buying before.

I personally bought 6 games yesterday and returned half of them, not because they were "short" but because I thought they might be cool, but it turned out they were not for me (okay, 2 of them were just flat out bad).

The point is - I wouldn't have even bought those before the refund policy, but now that this policy exists I can be more adventurous in my steam purchases.

Currently I am starving for disposable cash but this is more or less me once I have some money lying around.

 

[Alleged_Alec]

What the hell is wrong with some people (i.e. the ones going 'so what?') on this forum? Because a game doesn't take long to complete or doesn't have replay value, then people are somehow justified in shilling a game dev of 2 bucks? TWO DOLLARS. You're willing to steal (yes, steal, you got the experience and your money) for two dollars, and then justify it to yourself? Lets call a sheep a sheep here. You knew when you bought it that it wasn't a long game, or that the production values weren't going to be stellar. Nobody is buying a two dollar game and then going 'my god, this isn't what I was led to believe at all!'. This is just mean-spiritedness at it's worst and anyone defending ripping off small-time content creators seriously needs to rethink their life in general and their values in particular.

Wow. Did you even read what people wrote? No one did a Dick Dastardly laugh and said "yes, I'm going to finish these games and then get a refund". Now stop hitting that bale of straw and read what people are fucking arguing.

 

[Bat Vader]

What the hell is wrong with some people (i.e. the ones going 'so what?') on this forum? Because a game doesn't take long to complete or doesn't have replay value, then people are somehow justified in shilling a game dev of 2 bucks? TWO DOLLARS. You're willing to steal (yes, steal, you got the experience and your money) for two dollars, and then justify it to yourself? Lets call a sheep a sheep here. You knew when you bought it that it wasn't a long game, or that the production values weren't going to be stellar. Nobody is buying a two dollar game and then going 'my god, this isn't what I was led to believe at all!'. This is just mean-spiritedness at it's worst and anyone defending ripping off small-time content creators seriously needs to rethink their life in general and their values in particular.

Wow. Did you even read what people wrote? No one did a Dick Dastardly laugh and said "yes, I'm going to finish these games and then get a refund". Now stop hitting that bale of straw and read what people are fucking arguing.

Considering the human race is mostly full of a-holes I can see some especially scummy people doing stuff like that. Remember a few weeks ago when that person made a fake 7,000 euro donation to a kickstarter? If anyone does abuse the system though they are absolute scum.

 

[Alleged_Alec]

What the hell is wrong with some people (i.e. the ones going 'so what?') on this forum? Because a game doesn't take long to complete or doesn't have replay value, then people are somehow justified in shilling a game dev of 2 bucks? TWO DOLLARS. You're willing to steal (yes, steal, you got the experience and your money) for two dollars, and then justify it to yourself? Lets call a sheep a sheep here. You knew when you bought it that it wasn't a long game, or that the production values weren't going to be stellar. Nobody is buying a two dollar game and then going 'my god, this isn't what I was led to believe at all!'. This is just mean-spiritedness at it's worst and anyone defending ripping off small-time content creators seriously needs to rethink their life in general and their values in particular.

Wow. Did you even read what people wrote? No one did a Dick Dastardly laugh and said "yes, I'm going to finish these games and then get a refund". Now stop hitting that bale of straw and read what people are fucking arguing.

Considering the human race is mostly full of a-holes I can see some especially scummy people doing stuff like that. Remember a few weeks ago when that person made a fake 7,000 euro donation to a kickstarter? If anyone does abuse the system though they are absolute scum.

True, but it's still a useless statement. Yes, if people do this, that's a shitty thing to do. However, there's no evidence this happens on an appreciable scale, and even if that were the case, it's very arguable if that is bad enough to warrant taking away the rights of consumers.

Furthermore, I remember paying something like 15 euro's for Dear Esther because I heard it was a decent game. I was kind of disappointed when I finished it less than one and a half hours later. I would still have kept this game, since I found the game world fucking comfy and I still like to start it up and walk around that island once every few months, but I can totally see why people would feel ripped off by it and want their money back. These people did finish the game, but did so more or less by accident. Why is the act of finishing the game the one which should 'void the warranty'?