Smaller Devs Abused By Steam's "No Questions Asked" Refund Policy

[Ticklefist]

Also Steam as a DRM umbrella is a fallacy, its simply far easier to get onto Steam than it is to get onto GoG. Thats why Steam gets all the asset pack 'games' and publishers like Strategy First.

No way is that a fallacy. You've simply found an exception. Why does it matter to you if games are available from more than one Source anyways?

It doesnt. I simply dont understand people who eschew the superior platform just because it spends a few moments verifying your installation before launch.

Battle.net?

I kid. No that's not my problem with Steam. My problem is Valve and how everything is monetized, even your profile background. Even this cool new refund policy. There's no arguing it's great, but I wonder if it was put in place to reduce the amount of lost sales to sites like Greenman, Getgames, and Gamersgate.

 

[Redflash]

What the hell is wrong with some people (i.e. the ones going 'so what?') on this forum? Because a game doesn't take long to complete or doesn't have replay value, then people are somehow justified in shilling a game dev of 2 bucks? TWO DOLLARS. You're willing to steal (yes, steal, you got the experience and your money) for two dollars, and then justify it to yourself? Lets call a sheep a sheep here. You knew when you bought it that it wasn't a long game, or that the production values weren't going to be stellar. Nobody is buying a two dollar game and then going 'my god, this isn't what I was led to believe at all!'. This is just mean-spiritedness at it's worst and anyone defending ripping off small-time content creators seriously needs to rethink their life in general and their values in particular.

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

Doing this buy/refund instantly thing maliciously is easier if you just pirate.

This is like piracy for internet newbs I swear. At least with torrents, you don't get your steam account banned and you don't troll developers with your money.

Honestly I see this as a good thing cause now devs will struggle to over-price their games out of avarice lest they wish a wave of refunds. If someone honestly doesn't see the value in a brief experience, then they're not up to judgement, the developer is.

As an example: I don't see Gone Home as particularly worth my money, whereas The Stanley Parable definitely is. The latter runs a whole gamut of themes, discussions and perspectives in the space of an afternoon, whereas the former is just a story in a house, little more than a 3D art gallery like Mountain(which is a literal 3D art gallery and I duly believe does not deserve to charge money for its collection of scripts).

 

[Bindal]

What the hell is wrong with some people (i.e. the ones going 'so what?') on this forum? Because a game doesn't take long to complete or doesn't have replay value, then people are somehow justified in shilling a game dev of 2 bucks? TWO DOLLARS. You're willing to steal (yes, steal, you got the experience and your money) for two dollars, and then justify it to yourself?

So you rather want me to loose on money I would not consider worthwhile spend? Honestly, no. If I think that the game I purchased wasn't worth the money, then it wasn't worth the money and I want said money back. And if the reason I thought so is because I could beat it in less than two hours and have no reason from the game itself to play it again, then that's the reason why I don't consider it money worth spend and hence want said money back. Plain and simple.

 

[F-I-D-O]

I like how the developers compared refund percentages when refunds were almost impossible to get it, difficult to pursue, and had an unspoken rule of "you get one, then deal." Don't get me wrong, a 17% refund rate is high, but comparing it to numbers when a refund was practically impossible is only misleading to your audience.
This also doesn't take into account people buying a cheap game to test out the refund system itself, as people might with a cheap mobile port that won't lose them much if something messes up and they have to keep it. I'd be more interested in the states come October than the stats a week from the line.
Valve did claim that they will crackdown on people repeatedly abusing the system, so that's something that still needs to be seen in the longer term.
Oh, and if your game doesn't have more than an hour of content (Beyond Gravity), Steam's just not the right platform for 9/10 users. And GSB/GTB are very in-depth, good simulation games. Also very good spreadsheet simulators, which people might not be eager to try without a safety net from the steam refund. I'd imagine Paradox strategy games will also have a spike in refund claims during the Summer Sale since people might want to try the well-reviewed and regarded games, and realize they just don't like the management aspect as much as the subject matter interested them.

 

[dragoongfa]

How do we even know there is a problem? You can't judge that by looking at the amount of refunds because it stands to reason that now that Steams refund policy is so liberal, more people will be checking out games that they wouldn't have wanted to risk buying before.

I personally bought 6 games yesterday and returned half of them, not because they were "short" but because I thought they might be cool, but it turned out they were not for me (okay, 2 of them were just flat out bad).

The point is - I wouldn't have even bought those before the refund policy, but now that this policy exists I can be more adventurous in my steam purchases.

Currently I am starving for disposable cash but this is more or less me once I have some money lying around.

 

[Alleged_Alec]

What the hell is wrong with some people (i.e. the ones going 'so what?') on this forum? Because a game doesn't take long to complete or doesn't have replay value, then people are somehow justified in shilling a game dev of 2 bucks? TWO DOLLARS. You're willing to steal (yes, steal, you got the experience and your money) for two dollars, and then justify it to yourself? Lets call a sheep a sheep here. You knew when you bought it that it wasn't a long game, or that the production values weren't going to be stellar. Nobody is buying a two dollar game and then going 'my god, this isn't what I was led to believe at all!'. This is just mean-spiritedness at it's worst and anyone defending ripping off small-time content creators seriously needs to rethink their life in general and their values in particular.

Wow. Did you even read what people wrote? No one did a Dick Dastardly laugh and said "yes, I'm going to finish these games and then get a refund". Now stop hitting that bale of straw and read what people are fucking arguing.

 

[Bat Vader]

What the hell is wrong with some people (i.e. the ones going 'so what?') on this forum? Because a game doesn't take long to complete or doesn't have replay value, then people are somehow justified in shilling a game dev of 2 bucks? TWO DOLLARS. You're willing to steal (yes, steal, you got the experience and your money) for two dollars, and then justify it to yourself? Lets call a sheep a sheep here. You knew when you bought it that it wasn't a long game, or that the production values weren't going to be stellar. Nobody is buying a two dollar game and then going 'my god, this isn't what I was led to believe at all!'. This is just mean-spiritedness at it's worst and anyone defending ripping off small-time content creators seriously needs to rethink their life in general and their values in particular.

Wow. Did you even read what people wrote? No one did a Dick Dastardly laugh and said "yes, I'm going to finish these games and then get a refund". Now stop hitting that bale of straw and read what people are fucking arguing.

Considering the human race is mostly full of a-holes I can see some especially scummy people doing stuff like that. Remember a few weeks ago when that person made a fake 7,000 euro donation to a kickstarter? If anyone does abuse the system though they are absolute scum.

 

[Alleged_Alec]

What the hell is wrong with some people (i.e. the ones going 'so what?') on this forum? Because a game doesn't take long to complete or doesn't have replay value, then people are somehow justified in shilling a game dev of 2 bucks? TWO DOLLARS. You're willing to steal (yes, steal, you got the experience and your money) for two dollars, and then justify it to yourself? Lets call a sheep a sheep here. You knew when you bought it that it wasn't a long game, or that the production values weren't going to be stellar. Nobody is buying a two dollar game and then going 'my god, this isn't what I was led to believe at all!'. This is just mean-spiritedness at it's worst and anyone defending ripping off small-time content creators seriously needs to rethink their life in general and their values in particular.

Wow. Did you even read what people wrote? No one did a Dick Dastardly laugh and said "yes, I'm going to finish these games and then get a refund". Now stop hitting that bale of straw and read what people are fucking arguing.

Considering the human race is mostly full of a-holes I can see some especially scummy people doing stuff like that. Remember a few weeks ago when that person made a fake 7,000 euro donation to a kickstarter? If anyone does abuse the system though they are absolute scum.

True, but it's still a useless statement. Yes, if people do this, that's a shitty thing to do. However, there's no evidence this happens on an appreciable scale, and even if that were the case, it's very arguable if that is bad enough to warrant taking away the rights of consumers.

Furthermore, I remember paying something like 15 euro's for Dear Esther because I heard it was a decent game. I was kind of disappointed when I finished it less than one and a half hours later. I would still have kept this game, since I found the game world fucking comfy and I still like to start it up and walk around that island once every few months, but I can totally see why people would feel ripped off by it and want their money back. These people did finish the game, but did so more or less by accident. Why is the act of finishing the game the one which should 'void the warranty'?

 

[XT6Wagon]

Blizzard did let people get refunds for diablo III for anyone within 30 days of buying it after the launch issues. Lots of people including me took them up on it.

Worked for them as I got it again once they fixed the game so it was playable. Which translated into a RoS sale.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

2. The "data" regarding the drop in sales, have not been explained properly.
They are small numbers over a short period of time (about one week). The drops coincide with steam sales ending for certain games as well as refunds being implemented. While 13 refunds out of 18 sales is a large percentage, the numbers are insignificant - we're talking about 26 dollars here.

Also the drop in sales overlaps with the leak of the Steam Summer Sales date. Pretty much everyone who wants to buy a game and read about the summer sales will going to wait a little longer. If you know something will most likely go on sale in a week, would you buy it now or wait a week and maybe get a up to 90% price drop?

That being said, why are the graphs showing sales related to refunds? I worked only a short while close with a financial department and they had their sales separated from their refunds and there was a third, total chart which would show the final numbers.
If you sell 20 x and then get a refund of 10 x, you still sold 20 x. It didn't lower the sales, you just got refunds. Or at least that's how I understood it. I can't into economics, nor do I want to.

 

[OverEZ]

Yeah, lets band with the crappy indie devs and stop this pro-consumer policy. What a shitty thing to do, Steam. Those indie devs were relying on tricking people into making their games look worth-while. Shame on you, Steam. /sarcasm

Seriously though, if you can't be bothered to make a game longer than two hours AND is worth people's time, maybe this isn't the business you belong in. Try Television instead.

 

[Bat Vader]

What the hell is wrong with some people (i.e. the ones going 'so what?') on this forum? Because a game doesn't take long to complete or doesn't have replay value, then people are somehow justified in shilling a game dev of 2 bucks? TWO DOLLARS. You're willing to steal (yes, steal, you got the experience and your money) for two dollars, and then justify it to yourself? Lets call a sheep a sheep here. You knew when you bought it that it wasn't a long game, or that the production values weren't going to be stellar. Nobody is buying a two dollar game and then going 'my god, this isn't what I was led to believe at all!'. This is just mean-spiritedness at it's worst and anyone defending ripping off small-time content creators seriously needs to rethink their life in general and their values in particular.

Wow. Did you even read what people wrote? No one did a Dick Dastardly laugh and said "yes, I'm going to finish these games and then get a refund". Now stop hitting that bale of straw and read what people are fucking arguing.

Considering the human race is mostly full of a-holes I can see some especially scummy people doing stuff like that. Remember a few weeks ago when that person made a fake 7,000 euro donation to a kickstarter? If anyone does abuse the system though they are absolute scum.

True, but it's still a useless statement. Yes, if people do this, that's a shitty thing to do. However, there's no evidence this happens on an appreciable scale, and even if that were the case, it's very arguable if that is bad enough to warrant taking away the rights of consumers.

Furthermore, I remember paying something like 15 euro's for Dear Esther because I heard it was a decent game. I was kind of disappointed when I finished it less than one and a half hours later. I would still have kept this game, since I found the game world fucking comfy and I still like to start it up and walk around that island once every few months, but I can totally see why people would feel ripped off by it and want their money back. These people did finish the game, but did so more or less by accident. Why is the act of finishing the game the one which should 'void the warranty'?

If someone buys a game, plays through it, and legitimately hates it I can see how they would want a refund. I'm not talking about those situations though. I'm purely speaking of people who would treat it as a rental service/abuse it. Buy a short game, finish it, and then ask for a refund whether or not they enjoyed the game.

 

[MerlinCross]

That wasn't my post... but it raises a point. And to answer your question you only have to look at Skyrim. The game got a tone of negative reviews around thepaid mod thing. Mind you these reviews had nothing to do with the game or the quality of the game. People were just giving thumbs down reviews bew cause they had a beef with a policy.

That I believe shows the general level of maturity. There are easily between 10-30 thousand such users on Steam. It may not seem like much taking into account the steam population but to a small indie dev.. 10K users pulling this sort of crap can and will break the bank.

But can you bet on that many people doing that to a small indie dev? Can you supply the number that a poor little dev game will see this happen to them? Skyrim's a big title and the paid mod a big issue so that's going to generate attention. Would that happen to, lemme just open up steam..., D4ark Dreams Never Die? I don't even know this company.

Only large titles and/or titles that make a splash of some kind(like Air Control, I could see that being downvoted to hell which it deserves). I doubt smaller devs/games have to worry about that unless someone actively tries to marshal a downvoting campaign.

 

[mysecondlife]

After getting a decent PC less than 3 weeks ago, the new refund policy certainly sounds like "WELCOME BACK MYSECONDLIFE, WE MISSED YOU!"

As for smaller devs being "abused", it just means they have to try harder to make their product something worth keeping.

I bought Journey on PS3 which lasts around 2 hours but I've had multiple play-through out of it. It instantaneously became one of my favorite games. There's that.

 

[Pinky's Brain]

1. Europe has been nagging Valve to implement a refund system.

As I said before, it was almost certainly Straya which gave us Steam refunds. They had a court case which entered mediation in April, unlikely to be coincidence.

http://www.incompetition.com.au/2015/03/april-fools-mediation-steam-case/

 

[ash12181987]

To say 13/18 sales is 72% of that games sales for a few days, isn't deceptive... but it is something. I mean, we're talking about under 20 people. That is an embarrassingly small sample from which to draw conclusions. Considering this policy JUST happened, it could be argued that people are just trying it out. I mean, I was tempted to try and trade in a game when I heard valve had this policy now.

And lets put this into context, the game is under $2, according to the article. So the game company lost a whopping... $26... In 3 days... The Farengi would say that is being obsessive.

It'll be 6 months before we know what impact this will have, and even then... if games that cost under 5$, are still having this problem, and 72% of thousands of sales are being lost in that time... well, then special consideration can easily be made. Until such a time, that we have enough information to make that conclusion, lets stop saying that this is "A PR Fiasco"

 

[Vigormortis]

snip

So let me get this straight, Steven:

Thirteen refunded units out of eighteen units sold, of a shitty $2 PC release the equivalent of a mobile game, is a sign of a systemic "problem" with Steam refunds and is proof of a "PR nightmare" for Valve?

Spoiler: Pardon me a moment...

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

Blah blah blah piss off, devs. This industry has been both nickle-and-diming its customers AND calling them entitled brats for years now. Shit's not flying anymore. Your shill buddies over on the journalism side of things decided to collectively go to war against the customer base, and now those "losers" have realized they control the purse strings for this industry. If you're upset about pro-consumer changes, you're gonna want to find another line of work real soon.

 

[Doom972]

Earlier in the month, Valve finally decided to match one of "no questions asked" refund policy [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/127004-EA-Offers-Full-Refunds-For-Unsatisfied-Origin-Customers] that allowed gamers to get a full refund on games purchased within two months and played for less than two hours.

While many people initially celebrated Valve's refund policy, the blanket "2 months, 2 hours, no questions asked" doesn't seem particularly well thought out, and after the whole paid mod fiasco [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/140608-Valve-Ends-Paid-Mod-Program-On-Steam-Workshop] may be turning into another "Valve is completely out-of-touch with its fans and its partners" PR fiasco.

It's two weeks, not two months. It even says so in the links your provided.

OT: If a game can be finished in under 2 hours and doesn't have enough replayability or post-game content to make people want to keep playing, it's not worth even a single dollar. If people can now get refunds for these games, then I see it as the system working.

I disagree. Sometimes I want to play a short game like Dear Esther. I find them to be very calming and relaxing and I don't mind spending a couple of bucks to help support the developer. If people are buying short games just to beat them and then get refunds for them I find that to be a very crappy thing to do. I view those people as nothing more than scum.

Spend your money however you wish. I doubt people buy games with the intention of getting a refund for them. If I bought a game and found out that it lasts less than 2 hours I'd get a refund.
Also, If people make a habit of buying games, speeding through them and then getting a refund, Steam reserves the right not to give refunds to people who abuse the system.