So a black actor is considering role of Johnny Storm and nerdrage has turned racist again.

[Soxafloppin]

Hmmm, Sue storm would have to be black as well then..I know people like to pretend that Race isn't a thing, but its kind of a thing.

 

[Petromir]

Same thing with James Bond, unless there is some kind of canon nod to the theory that each acted James Bond is a different agent, and presuming that is not the case, I would be against a black James Bond, or any other colour.

James bond is always treated as the same person, the actor changing is just ignored, there are even occasional cross actor references in a couple of movies I think. It's also not a classic reboot when they change him, far to much remains the same.

Doctor Who on the other hand, has no reason to be white all the time since his regenerations seem to reconfigure everything else about him, and probably should have been another colour at least once by now.

It would be interesting to see but tricky to keep him noticeably the same character. While plenty changes about him, in all his TV incarnations with one exception he's pretty much been played as an eccentric upper middle-class Brit(and usually sporting a southern English accent) the one time he deviated from this noticeably, at the start of 'Modern' Who where it was commented upon. Since Eccleston's departure from the posh Brit role, the next two have somewhat pulled the role back to said eccentric posh Brit characteristics.

Basically how do you bring anything other than a cosmetic skin colour change to the Dr without creating to much of a disconnect.

The Doctor is a weird case, because while it unusually has a great mechanism for actor change built in, but this also means that there's in some ways less scope to change him more than cosmetically as there's greater chance of a disconnect. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but that it risks changing the Dr to much at once, or not enough and in the latter case feeling like it was all PC and brings little to the role.

The other issue is that a Black (or Asian or any other race) replacement for Matt Smith may well suffer from the same issue that Matt Smith did early on, that the writers were still in many ways writing for his predecessor, this lead him to come across as a poor David Tennant rather than his own distinct incarnation.

There are a number of great examples of major changes to a character that worked, both in Race (in say Baz Luhrmann's Romeo and Juliet) and indeed Sex (Battlestar Galactica). It is however often difficult to do.

Bond and Dr Who are unusual in that in changing the lead actor as much as both have they've in many ways changed much less than franchise that have gone through far less in the way of main character changes.

A full on reboot of something is often the best way to change a character like this, especially in a way that allows you to start off a reboot with a brief origin story or similar (Batman movies unless direct sequels tend to start with the murder of Bruce Wayne's parents) as this gives you a way to plant the seeds of your new version. This also means individual superhero movies have mechanisms to change a character in such a way, while group movies have issues (you risk spending to long on origins and therefore pacing badly).

 

[Private Custard]

WHY are you looking at Bond?! What did I miss? What happened to Bond??? He MUST remain British!!!

I know what you meant to say, but you may want to change the wording on that!

As for Bond, there was talk a while back of Idris Elba being the first black Bond which, awesome as he is, I didn't really think would fit.


Overall, I've been quoted numerous times in this thread and have to say, well done escapists, for having a well reasoned and rational discussion about something that could be considered 'walking on eggshells' territory!

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

As long as they stay true to the nature of the character, then I'm okay with this.

I did get pretty irked when they had Ludacris play Jim Bravura in the Max Payne movie. Here's a crusty, overweight, middle aged white character being played by a young, fit black man... why? I'm all for having the best actor for the role regardless of race but that casting choice was just *puts sunglasses on* ludicrous.

To be fair, the whole casting in that movie was horrible. Marky Mark as Max Payne didn't cut it for me. Max is supposed to be grizzled and cynical and depressed; Marky just looks angry most of the time. Same with Ludacris - who thought changing an irascible, bumbling old fart into such a bored, lackluster character?

 

[Mr F.]

I'm more bothered by the fact they're making ANOTHER' Fantastic Four movie then the color of the flaming twat I didn't like the first time around.

The real problem there is that it's not an in-house Marvel movie like the Avengers, it's done by 20th Century Fox which means it will likely suck and also likely get another remake if and when the rights ever default back to Marvel/Disney.

OT: I'm not a fan of the race swapping thing in a pre-established character. The Fantastic Four is that stereotypical white 50's family with superpowers. I have comics where Johnny Storm is the most painfully white California bleach blond kid you can roll out of the suburbs. He's so white he makes Wonder Bread look tanned. But sadly, as humorous as that is, he is still a white guy. I'd cry bloody murder if they made Storm or Luke Cage white. That's not racist, that's having respect for the character as they were made.

If Marvel comics wants to make an all black or multi-racial family out of the Fantastic Four though, I'd be all for that. At the same time though, they could just make new and interesting characters that aren't white. A little color in the comics wouldn't hurt.

Sorry for quoting you. First off, I have no real idea about the back story or origin stories or anything whatsoever. I just want to make that clear. I thought the first film was fun but totally and utterly forgettable. If I concentrate, I think there might have been a sequel which made the first film look good in retrospect by simply being terribad. But this part of what you said intrigued me.

I'm not a fan of the race swapping thing in a pre-established character. The Fantastic Four is that stereotypical white 50's family with superpowers.

That line right there justifies raceswapping etc. Bringing the film away from its roots and into the 21st century. Cause yeah, 1961 (Some other dude in the thread used that date, not me, not claiming I know when it was written) was not exactly the most enlightened time. If the film is going to be set in the 21st century and dealing with evil superblehs using modern evil superbleh powers (Superbleh, my term for describing people with superpowers who do not interest me at all) then it is fair to bring the origin stories forward was well.

I have comics where Johnny Storm is the most painfully white California bleach blond kid you can roll out of the suburbs.

Is his whiteness the defining part of his character or is it his suburban upbringing?

See, from what I have seen there are not that many good examples of why changing the race is that much of a huge thing. Or that much of a thing at all. If you are right and have caught the spirit of the original comics, that they were supposed to be a typical family from the Suburbs given SUPEH POWEHS! then a shift to diversify keeps them in line with being a typical family. Or maybe just no longer the *most* typical family.

"Rhyme nor reason". Quite Captcha. Quite.

 

[aba1]

I am against it but not strongly. It just makes more sense to have him be white because his character has always been white. Changing his ethnicity will alter his origins and family and random other little things that put off people who are invested in his character because of the comics. Most of those reasons are reasons I think it is a bad idea from a corporate and story telling stand point. Personally I don't care to much it is a different universe and if it is going to be done at least it is being done in a way that doesn't screw anything up so ya go for it see what I care skin colour shouldn't matter.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I'm more bothered by the fact they're making ANOTHER' Fantastic Four movie then the color of the flaming twat I didn't like the first time around.

The real problem there is that it's not an in-house Marvel movie like the Avengers, it's done by 20th Century Fox which means it will likely suck and also likely get another remake if and when the rights ever default back to Marvel/Disney.

OT: I'm not a fan of the race swapping thing in a pre-established character. The Fantastic Four is that stereotypical white 50's family with superpowers. I have comics where Johnny Storm is the most painfully white California bleach blond kid you can roll out of the suburbs. He's so white he makes Wonder Bread look tanned. But sadly, as humorous as that is, he is still a white guy. I'd cry bloody murder if they made Storm or Luke Cage white. That's not racist, that's having respect for the character as they were made.

If Marvel comics wants to make an all black or multi-racial family out of the Fantastic Four though, I'd be all for that. At the same time though, they could just make new and interesting characters that aren't white. A little color in the comics wouldn't hurt.

Sorry for quoting you. First off, I have no real idea about the back story or origin stories or anything whatsoever. I just want to make that clear. I thought the first film was fun but totally and utterly forgettable. If I concentrate, I think there might have been a sequel which made the first film look good in retrospect by simply being terribad. But this part of what you said intrigued me.

I'm not a fan of the race swapping thing in a pre-established character. The Fantastic Four is that stereotypical white 50's family with superpowers.

That line right there justifies raceswapping etc. Bringing the film away from its roots and into the 21st century. Cause yeah, 1961 (Some other dude in the thread used that date, not me, not claiming I know when it was written) was not exactly the most enlightened time. If the film is going to be set in the 21st century and dealing with evil superblehs using modern evil superbleh powers (Superbleh, my term for describing people with superpowers who do not interest me at all) then it is fair to bring the origin stories forward was well.

I have comics where Johnny Storm is the most painfully white California bleach blond kid you can roll out of the suburbs.

Is his whiteness the defining part of his character or is it his suburban upbringing?

See, from what I have seen there are not that many good examples of why changing the race is that much of a huge thing. Or that much of a thing at all. If you are right and have caught the spirit of the original comics, that they were supposed to be a typical family from the Suburbs given SUPEH POWEHS! then a shift to diversify keeps them in line with being a typical family. Or maybe just no longer the *most* typical family.

"Rhyme nor reason". Quite Captcha. Quite.

My answer to stuff like this is, if you don't like it, don't change it, make something new. The past was a racist place, yes. But I'd argue that if you're offended by how white bread media from it is, there are better ways to fix it than inserting modern ideals into an old property. To do so would be to gloss over something from a dark period of history. In other words, don't remake Leave it to Beaver but make the family multicultural. Make a show like Modern Family instead.

 

[KrossBillNye]

Allow me to ask this one question. There is a lot of text about this but it is important.

Is Sue Storms going to be played by a black woman? If not... then this entire discuss is pointless.

Otherwise Johnny and Sue's parents have A LOT of explaining to do.

 

[x EvilErmine x]

Who the fuck cares? Seriously I think people should stop complaining about stuff like this. why would you care whom the actor is, what's important is how he or she plays the role. Can they bring the character to life? Thats the only thing that matters.

For example

Spoiler: Nick Fury from the comics

Spoiler: Nick Fury from the films

And

Spoiler: Heimdall from the comics

Spoiler: Heimdall from the film

Do you really think that they would have been any more awesome if they were played by a white actor as per the source material?

 

[kypsilon]

I'm more bothered by the fact they're making ANOTHER' Fantastic Four movie then the color of the flaming twat I didn't like the first time around.

The real problem there is that it's not an in-house Marvel movie like the Avengers, it's done by 20th Century Fox which means it will likely suck and also likely get another remake if and when the rights ever default back to Marvel/Disney.

OT: I'm not a fan of the race swapping thing in a pre-established character. The Fantastic Four is that stereotypical white 50's family with superpowers. I have comics where Johnny Storm is the most painfully white California bleach blond kid you can roll out of the suburbs. He's so white he makes Wonder Bread look tanned. But sadly, as humorous as that is, he is still a white guy. I'd cry bloody murder if they made Storm or Luke Cage white. That's not racist, that's having respect for the character as they were made.

If Marvel comics wants to make an all black or multi-racial family out of the Fantastic Four though, I'd be all for that. At the same time though, they could just make new and interesting characters that aren't white. A little color in the comics wouldn't hurt.

Sorry for quoting you. First off, I have no real idea about the back story or origin stories or anything whatsoever. I just want to make that clear. I thought the first film was fun but totally and utterly forgettable. If I concentrate, I think there might have been a sequel which made the first film look good in retrospect by simply being terribad. But this part of what you said intrigued me.

I'm not a fan of the race swapping thing in a pre-established character. The Fantastic Four is that stereotypical white 50's family with superpowers.

That line right there justifies raceswapping etc. Bringing the film away from its roots and into the 21st century. Cause yeah, 1961 (Some other dude in the thread used that date, not me, not claiming I know when it was written) was not exactly the most enlightened time. If the film is going to be set in the 21st century and dealing with evil superblehs using modern evil superbleh powers (Superbleh, my term for describing people with superpowers who do not interest me at all) then it is fair to bring the origin stories forward was well.

I have comics where Johnny Storm is the most painfully white California bleach blond kid you can roll out of the suburbs.

Is his whiteness the defining part of his character or is it his suburban upbringing?

See, from what I have seen there are not that many good examples of why changing the race is that much of a huge thing. Or that much of a thing at all. If you are right and have caught the spirit of the original comics, that they were supposed to be a typical family from the Suburbs given SUPEH POWEHS! then a shift to diversify keeps them in line with being a typical family. Or maybe just no longer the *most* typical family.

"Rhyme nor reason". Quite Captcha. Quite.

Absolutely all valid points. But I think rather than letting the studios change the source material, the comics should do it first. Upgrade the Fantastic Four for a new age and then make a movie about them.

 

[KrossBillNye]

Who the fuck cares? Seriously I think people should stop complaining about stuff like this. why would you care whom the actor is, what's important is how he or she plays the role. Can they bring the character to life? Thats the only thing that matters.

For example

Spoiler: Nick Fury from the comics

Spoiler: Nick Fury from the films

And

Spoiler: Heimdall from the comics

Spoiler: Heimdall from the film

Do you really think that they would have been any more awesome if they were played by a white actor as per the source material?

You forgot Blade. Blade is white in the Comics but was black in the movies.

I am all for changes like that. It gives them some leg room.

But if you are going to change Johnny Storm black you need to turn Sue Storm black or you will be either implying that they are step-brother/sisters or that their mother was not faithful to Mr Storm.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

What relevance it has. Is his "whiteness" central to his character? If so, in what way? If not, then who cares?

And no, "he's white" does not speak for itself in terms of relevance, unless he's a Neo-Nazi or something..

Its for the same reason that people freaked out when they changed how Dante looked in DMC. When you take an existing character and completely redesign the look it will never go over with the fans. Especially when they is no point in doing tn such as the case with Johnny Storm.

I was under the impression that most of the complaints came from the change to Dante's character, which is something I can actually understand. Sure, there was some complaining about his new look, but I don't think it was as much an issue to people who actually played it and were upset about Dante being a completely different person.

Yeah I got that impression as well, most of the time game "journalists" were strawmanning those who disliked the reboot by saying "you just don't like Dante's hair color." When the complaints, which admittedly had some of that, also included:

"Why did you need to reboot Devil May Cry in the first place?"
"Why did you give it to a Western studio that has only made three games?"
"FUCK YOU" [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cbMIKiGjy8]

I was under the impression that most of the complaints came from the change to Dante's character, which is something I can actually understand. Sure, there was some complaining about his new look, but I don't think it was as much an issue to people who actually played it and were upset about Dante being a completely different person.

Well sorry to break it to you but your kind of wrong. Sure the people who played it didnt care but the people who played it were not the same people who were bitching for six months straight about Dantes new look.

People played it and also complained about the story and Dante's character. Not his look.

 

[KrossBillNye]

You forgot Blade. Blade is white in the Comics...

...No he really isn't. Never has been.

Also half brother and sister maybe? Not everything is the nuclear family nowadays. Their mother remarried and got pregnant with Johnny, simple.

Actually you are right he wasn't.

I have no idea why I thought that for a moment...

But back on topic, the point is if you want to show a movie 'based' off a comic book shouldn't you stick to the original source material?

If people really want a black super hero there are plenty of black super hero's to choose from Marvel, Luke Cage, Bishop, Black Panther, Storm.

There is even more in DC.

I am not against Black people getting a lead role in movies. I loved Blade. I loved the re-imagining of Heimdall. Nic Fury was also a nice touch since both those characters didn't have too much of a re-make to make it THAT much of a big deal.

Johnny has always been White in comics, TV shows, and movies. To suddenly say he's black will make those who follow the franchise to simply reply with 'what?' or probably something more profane.

Personally I would just like to know why they want to do this? Is it because of the lack of black guy rolls in movies? Why not release a few movies with lead black guy superheros? I would love to see a Luke Cage, Bishop, or Black Panther Movie.

 

[ninjaRiv]

When it's something as arbitrary as a characters race, and has absolutely ZERO effect on who the man is as a character... then what's the fucking problem?

No, really, what's the fucking problem? If you're getting pissy over something as minor and insignificant as a racial change, you've got some issues. Source material be damned.

Not too mention, and this is the bit people are probably going to take offense to, with so many roles in these films going to good looking white guys, I don't really see too much of an issue with one or two bits going to someone of a different race. That's right, things aren't the perfect utopia of equality idiots tell you it is, and as far as I'm concerned, it's okay to get rid of some of all the goddamn whiteness.

People like yourself forget that these characters are important to a lot of people. I'm gonna go all the way back to the black Spider-man thing here, which I didn't want to do because I got fucking sick of that.

These characters have been around for a long time. A lot of people grew up with them or found them at certain points in life. peter Parker was like looking into a mirror for many social outcasts and still is. Black AND white, by the way. So the continued to read about these characters and fall in love with them. It's what built our community, for crying out loud.

So you can go ahead and call those people sad and pathetic but they're not. They're seeing characters they love, characters who represent who they are (Spider-man) and who they desperately want to be (Human Torch) and I think wanting nothing about them to change is perfectly valid. That's the fucking problem. They see characters having ethnicity changed because of no reason at all and they don't like it. I'd probably count myself among these people a little, although, these two characters never had a big impact on me. But there are characters who have. And I'd fight anybody who tried to change them. It's needless change for stupid reasons. Also, people like myself are sensitive to being called racist because we have a preference. That adds a lot to the fighting.

But facets of personality don't change because of race! If you think they do, then I'm sorry, but that IS racist. Human Torch can still be a wisecracking doofus even if he's black! If you're also unable to connect to someone just because of skin color, then I apologize again, but I think you got some issues...

And don't talk to me like I'm some pleb who knows fuck all about comics, kay? I've got favorite heroes,just like you. If a Green Arrow film was being made, and it turns Ollie Queen was Spanish this time around, I wouldn't give a damn.

I don't have issues with race, trust me. I was defending SOME fans hatred towards change, not race. I didn't say all fans were like that at all. A lot of racism, I think, comes from not wanting ANY change at all. It's easy to sound racist of race is what's being changed. What if they wanted him wearing pink frills as a costume? Pretty sure they'd have the same complaints. 'Kay?

That I would understand because pink frills would look fucking stupid. This isn't pink frills however, it's a change in skin and hair color. Everything else remains intact, it's just his race, which is insignificant. I mean, is Human Torch just impossible to get behind now because he's black?

No, he's not impossible to get behind. I'm just trying to put things into perspective, show that it's not all racism and bigotry. I also think it's a needless change that serves no purpose. The flip side is "Would it matter if he was played by a white actor?" Honestly, I got sick of this with the Spider-Man thing. If they change the FF to the point I don't enjoy it, I'll read the comics instead, providing they don't force a black Johnny Storm into the comics, like they did with Sammy L J. I may be sick of that crap, but I still feel the need to defend the middle ground, the grey area. That it's not all racism. Plenty of people just don't want change. I feel some of the actual racists (those who are racist with things like this "******'s can't be nerds" etc but not in any other way) are actually confused and aren't sure WHY they don't want it. they just know a change is bad.

God, I hope that made more sense than the shit I've said already.

Also, to you personally; sorry about the sarcastic "'kay" using it against you. Bad mood, felt like my point wasn't getting across (it wasn't, I've admitted I have difficulty doing that) and blah.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

Personally I would just like to know why they want to do this? Is it because of the lack of black guy rolls in movies? Why not release a few movies with lead black guy superheros? I would love to see a Luke Cage, Bishop, or Black Panther Movie.

Well an actor said he was interested, and he'd like a fair shot. Nothing really more about it.

No one can really say "you can't do that." I mean, studios are allowed to pick their actors any way they want to right?

If someone puts a sign that "Whites/Blacks/Hispanics/Asians not allowed on set" THEN I will start saying something is up.

 

[KrossBillNye]

Personally I would just like to know why they want to do this? Is it because of the lack of black guy rolls in movies? Why not release a few movies with lead black guy superheros? I would love to see a Luke Cage, Bishop, or Black Panther Movie.

Well an actor said he was interested, and he'd like a fair shot. Nothing really more about it.

No one can really say "you can't do that." I mean, studios are allowed to pick their actors any way they want to right?

Oh absolutely. I am not saying he isn't 'allowed'. I am just saying it doesn't make sense due to source material.

Its like if Hollywood wanted to make a Static Shock movie with a white man.

Does that really interest everyone?

 

[Lovely Mixture]

Oh absolutely. I am not saying he isn't 'allowed'.

Definitely, I hope I didn't come off as trying to put words in your mouth.

I am just saying it doesn't make sense due to source material.

Its like if Hollywood wanted to make a Static Shock movie with a white man.

Does that really interest everyone?

It might not make sense. But I think it would gather some interest if the movie looked good enough.


Now what they SHOULD do, is make a film with the following synopsis:

An elite superhero team beloved by all, they are so popular they don't even wear masks, and then one of the white heroes/heroines gets killed....And the only person available who has similar superpowers good enough to replace the dead hero?.....A black person.

Cue the torn fanbase and the public reaction.

COMING THIS SUMMER

"Empowered Like Me"

________

It'd be like Hancock without that dumb second half.

 

[gazumped]

Surprised I haven't seen anyone mention this, they already made a white Fantastic Four character black in the last films.

Alicia Masters isn't one of the Big 4, but she's been a central character since the 60s and spent over 40 years being white and blonde until 2005.

How much difference did that make? Genuine question, did anyone feel like something was lost by making Ben's love interest and close friend of the team black instead of white?

People have already touched on this, but the Fantastic Four are white because the comic began in the 1960s where a family with enough wealth and backing to take a trip to space were incredibly unlikely (impossible?) to be black. Unless they're setting the film in the 1960s, I think they can afford to make some contextual changes.

In the comics, Johnny Storm is adopted. There's no reason he can't be adopted here, or a half-brother, or some other form of family.

Is he? I want this to be true so that everyone can stop niggling about it but I can't find a source.

 

[RJ 17]

There is definitely something racist about refusing to consider an actor or actress based purely on the colour of their skin, regardless of how well they actually play the character.

So going back to my example, would you consider it racist for a film about Muhammad Ali to NOT cast a white actor as Ali if said actor gave the best audtion? Edit: That is, would you consider the ensuing "WTF?!"ing from critics and audience members at the fact that they got a white guy to play Ali to be racist?

I'd argue no, it isn't. Why? Because Muhammad Ali was black..that's a fact. Just as Johnny Storm is white, that is also a fact.

Uhhh ... at the risk of sounding patronizing ... you are aware that Johnny Storm isn't a real person, right? Never has been? He's a fictional character in a comic book series who has the power to set himself on fire and fly around. Muhammad Ali was a real person. Comparing the two is kind of ridiculous.

You can't say "Johnny Storm IS white" in the same way that you say "Muhammad Ali was black." Because, y'know, Johnny Storm isn't actually white. He isn't actually anything. He doesn't really exist.

Oh, and you're also making the same old false equivalence argument between black and white characters but I'm bored of pointing out to people that it's a false equivalence when I'm 99% sure that they already know that it is, and are just hoping no one will call them out on it.

I love when people start quoting from the Speech and Debate 101 handbook so they can sound like they know what they're talking about. Fictional or not, the guy who came up with Johnny Storm made him a white guy. By your logic, it'd make just as much sense to have Sonic the Hedgehog CGI'd in as Johnny Storm because hey! Who cares? It's just a fictional character, right? Since they didn't exist we can do whatever we want with them! Santa isn't a big fat guy in a red suit with a beard, he's a kangaroo with a top-hat that lives in the ocean and knits socks.

Bottom line: fictional characters DO exist. They exist in the works from which they came. Why not make Huckleberry Finn a black kid? Why not make Snow White a black woman? If there was ever a version of the Marvel universe in which Johnny Storm was a black guy, there'd be absolutely no problem with this because it'd be officially canon that "In this series of comics, Johnny was actually black." Since that isn't the case, it's non-canon. And THAT - getting back to the main point of this mess - is why people are "nerd-raging" about this. It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Jordan is black, it's all about the fact that it goes completely against canon.

Edit: And I'm spent. With that, I officially no longer care about this topic. Discussions like these are specifically why I said this:

You know, just once JUST ONCE I want to see a discussion on race/sex/sexual preferences that has people respecting one another, being polite, and not just devolving into throwing insults at one another. JUST! ONCE!

You know, just once I'd like to come to The Escapist and NOT see a topic (or three) in the "Popular Forum Posts" box that's about race/sex/sexual preferences. Just once.

Have a pleasant day.

 

[gazumped]

If there was ever a version of the Marvel universe in which Johnny Storm was a black guy, there'd be absolutely no problem with this because it'd be officially canon that "In this series of comics, Johnny was actually black." Since that isn't the case, it's non-canon. And THAT - getting back to the main point of this mess - is why people are "nerd-raging" about this. It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Jordan is black, it's all about the fact that it goes completely against canon.

But this WOULD be a version of the Marvel universe in which Johnny Storm was a black guy. :/ Why would it make it any better if they'd switched his race in a series of comics or in a film?