So a black actor is considering role of Johnny Storm and nerdrage has turned racist again.

[Frotality]

considering these were pop comics made in the 50s, i dont think him being white was ever anything more than a cultural mandate. hes just an energetic party boy type, you hardly have to be white to fit that role. besides, weve seen the fantastic 4 recreated as they were meant to be, weve seen hollywood make and break so many cultural icons for a quick nostalgic buck, shouldnt we at least get a little something different to make the movie some kind of worthwhile? change up some character traits and backgrounds and suddenly youve got a whole new experience that is also nostalgia-gasmic by making the similarities that much more noticeable.

 

[Sepko]

Unless Sue is black, then I don't like the idea. You can reboot the character, just like Fury, but you can't change their family or else they have to start messing with the character's background, too.

Why does Sue have to be black as well to keep people happy? One simple line "Hey, this is my adopted brother Johnny" and done. Not much to it.

So why re write two characters back story instead of just getting an actor of the proper race for either sibling? Which do you think is harder here?

"proper race"? Really?
Weird wording aside, it's not that hard to come up with a background, they're most likely not gonna dwell on it for more than two minutes. "Johnny was adopted by the Storm family when he was 5 or whatever." Easy as pie.

Really? "the proper race"?

 

[O maestre]

Comics is a visual medium, it's not at all racist or surprising that people would want the characters to be true to the source material. It's nostalgia more than anything. The Thing looked fucking stupid in the last movie. It didn't feel 'right' the whole time I was watching it. The whole reason fans get excited about seeing their favorite comic characters on screen is because they like the characters. That's kind of the point. If they start changing them for arbitrary reasons then they're not really those characters anymore. When you think Johnny Storm you probably have the 616 version in your mind. When you think Thing, you think rocky guy with a big eye brow. When you think Doom, you don't think whatever the Hell that abortion from the first film was. Why not swap everyone's ethnicity around? White Storm, black Magneto, Maori Jubilee!

Why should he be black? If you're going to go fucking around with almost a hundred years of history you'd better have a good reason, not a pandering shoe-horn and a tub of lube.

Thats the thing, strictly speaking its not history it is culture and in some regards our modern mythology. The difference is that one is static the other is fluid, myths and culture and the interpretation of them change as the culture around them changes. Why should we be hogtied to the culture of the 50's, if the material is intended to be set during modern times. As long as the portrayals remain true to their characters. I dont think being white is a defining feature of Johnny Storm.

People didn't seem to get butthurt over the film adaptations of the Mandarin or Bane(of the top of my head) I rarely see any butthurt from appearance changes that involve whites taking the place of other ethnicities in fiction... and it rarely even matters, in regards to the characters identity. I am personally under the belief that they find the actor who fits the role best, depending on the movies interpretation of the source material. Do you seriously think they sit down and have a race quota they have to fulfil?

I think Brad Pitt should play Luke Cage. What? It will "add new depth to the character", or some other bull****.

how would that add new depth?
just curious how this works in your head.

Oops. Forgot to add *jokingly* at the end. Bad VMK, really bad.
What I meant, actually, is YOUR actual question. Such changes to characters are made to simply stir controversy, to add awareness about movie + to show that we are all "Oh so freakin' tollerant". They add nothing. They do not add depth, or change anything important.
And that's why I mentioned Luke Cage and Brad Pitt. Such change would be made just for the sake of the change + mentioned controversy.

Why the hell not? if Brad Pitt fits the role best, then why not? Although they probably would have to change the setting from the ghetto to a.... trailer park?(?). Perhaps a better example would be Spawn who's ethnicity doesn't really matter in regards to the character and the world he inhabits.

 

[EeveeElectro]

Is it even possible to think this could be stupid idea, without shouts of 'RACIST' and a large amount of pitchfork wielding?? We live in a world full of people just waiting to be offended, and it's getting boring. If something's non-canon, how can it be racist to point it out?

Yes, yes, yes. This indeed. I understand people getting disgruntled if someone is a completely different race to their book character or it seems inaccurate for the times and I wouldn't say they're being racist, just like I wouldn't say people are being sexist if they turned Johnny Storm into a woman and people got annoyed.

Samuel L Jackson makes a fantastic Nick Fury, and his comic book character is white in the originals.
[sub]I reeeeally need to get some older Avengers comics[/sub]

As long as Michael doesn't make the whole character about his skin colour I see no problem. It's not about their race, it's how well they play the character. Reinventing can sometimes be a good thing, assuming this a reboot sort of movie they're doing.

 

[O maestre]

Imagine what would happen if people made a Spawn movie with white Spawn. People would probably blow a gasket. I though he was Sue's brother so are they both black? Because if not now you're changing more origin stuff than just race. I personally hate Fantastic 4 so I don't care what they do. It's probably just a publicity stunt anyway.

lol I wish I had seen your post before I committed mine, Spawn was precisely the example I used. How does being black define Spawn? the character could work just as well as a white guy.

Also I sincerely doubt that the "bleaching" of characters has ever caused major multiple gasket blow outs, it always seems to be the other way around right, or am I mistaken?

 

[bug_of_war]

The actual biggest problem here are the "black fanboys."
And yes i can say that since they call whoever sais they need to keep that Storm guy white a "white fanboy"

Ok, so before i get a warning for trolling / flaming hear me out.

You can't say it is a bad idea, with legitimate reasons, without being called a racist. Seriously, just no.

The best reason i have seen as to why it is a bad idea, is that you also have to change Sue Storm to black since they are family and all. And to me, that just seems... off.


But what is it with all these roles of white characters being, with lack of a better phrase, taken over by black people. I don't mind it, but it just seems more and more that they do it just to be politically correct than actual talent.

It's tough because I can kind of see both sides of the arguments as being legitimate.

On the "He should be white side" it does make sense that an already established character should keep the basics of who they are there, and there is always the possibility (no matter how slim) that it may have a chain reaction effect that could change other characters story lines unintentionally.

However, white people have played other ethnicities in other movies (See Andrew Garfield in The Social Network, multiple actors in Cloud Atlas etc.), and comics have multiple universes where many different versions of characters can be found, so why not just assume that in this dimension the characters are black, or Asian, or native American, or any other race that pops into your mind.

I'm seriously on the fence about this topic because both sides (when being rational) make very good points.

 

[WanderingFool]

Now, I have only one question:

Will the Fantastic Four movie be any good? Cause as far as im concerned, it doesnt matter who has the role of Johnny Storm, if the movie is gonna suck, its still a waste of time...

 

[Keymik]

I didn't agree with it but I could at least understand the argument for Heimndal.. He is a Norse god, I don't think the Norse knew that people of color existed.

They actually did. Called them "Blue men" for some reason. Brought some back as "souvenirs". My ancestors where horrible as well as colour blind

Heheh yeah, Vikings weren't exactly the best at naming.. *cough* Greenland *cough*

OT: I think other people have explained it better than I could ever do.
But I agree that if they want to make him black then Sue should be black aswell.. It only makes sense and changing their entire background story and dynamic by only making Johnny black just seems silly.

 

[Mister K]

People didn't seem to get butthurt over the film adaptations of the Mandarin

Woah-ho-ho yes they did. On many forums (I do not remember if Escapist ones too) I've seen people complaining not only about white actor playing asian magician overlord, but also changing him into arabic terrorist.

I think Brad Pitt should play Luke Cage. What? It will "add new depth to the character", or some other bull****.

how would that add new depth?
just curious how this works in your head.

Oops. Forgot to add *jokingly* at the end. Bad VMK, really bad.
What I meant, actually, is YOUR actual question. Such changes to characters are made to simply stir controversy, to add awareness about movie + to show that we are all "Oh so freakin' tollerant". They add nothing. They do not add depth, or change anything important.
And that's why I mentioned Luke Cage and Brad Pitt. Such change would be made just for the sake of the change + mentioned controversy.

Why the hell not? if Brad Pitt fits the role best, then why not? Although they probably would have to change the setting from the ghetto to a.... trailer park?(?). Perhaps a better example would be Spawn who's ethnicity doesn't really matter in regards to the character and the world he inhabits.

Why the hell not??? Because I personally do NOT want one of the coolest black superheroes to be played by white Hollywood prettyboy. I do not dislike Pitt, but still, look at this picture

You really think that this phrase would sound better without deep, black voice (like in videogames), acompanied by serious and handsome masculine black face? Of course not.

And I bet many people wouldn't like such change, no matter their etnicity.

 

[Playful Pony]

Unless the race of the character is significant to his personality or the world he exists in, I cannot see why. For example, it wouldn't make much sense to cast a black man as a Nazi General, but I see no reason why the modern James Bond couldn't be a classy black gentleman. You couldn't have Django be white, and in a movie about Red Khmer you wouldn't cast Will Smith in the role of Pol Pot!

When it's not important in context with the world, I don't care which race a character is. I would like to see some more female action heroines though! Of course these too only when there isn't a good reason for the character to be male...

 

[Keymik]

Perhaps a better example would be Spawn who's ethnicity doesn't really matter in regards to the character and the world he inhabits.

Spawn's skin is sort of rotten and ghoulish looking.. So you're right race wouldn't even matter to him xD

But what if they changed the skin color of his ex-wife? It's sort of a cop-out with Spawn as he wears a concealing outfit and is sort of decayed.

I personally wouldn't want them to change that, I liked the characters as they are and would feel oddly put off if suddenly they were all white. Not saying it couldn't work but it would definitly make me cautious as if I actually wanted to spend money to watch the movie if they were changing things up like that.

 

[Panorama]

Who cares, let them take the it in a different direction to the source material that is not a problem ,as long as its not crap. I'm happy.

 

[Peace Frog]

So yeah,
http://www.thewrap.com/movies/column-post/will-chronicle-star-michael-b-jordan-be-human-torch-fantastic-four-88881
Michael B Jordan is considering being The Human Torch in the Fantastic Four reboot. Frankly, I think there's no problem here at all. A role, as far as I'm concerned, has nothing to do with the look of the character, but how well the actor can capture or interpret the character, but the comic book community is complaining all over the internet. Seriously, check the comments. It's not good stuff.

What does the Escapist make of this? Do you guys care about the race of a character in an adaptation?

So you wouldn't have a problem with them changing the gender of a character either? Most stories could work just fine with all the genders reversed but I don't think it's a good idea. It's just changing details for no reason.

Like having a white Goku was jarring (though that DBZ film was shit for plenty of other reasons)

 

[Allevil]

I liked Idris Elba as Heimdall (and think he would probably be a pretty good Bond if given the chance)
I thought Donald Glover would have been a great Spiderman
I, broadly speaking, have no issue with this kind of change

In the cases of Heimdall and Spiderman, the actor fit with the character well, and the change in appearance from the comics was an acceptable sacrifice for the sake of improving the movie.

But with Johnny Storm, why bother? I find that hard to buy that it's a rare actor who can fit the character - all they need is a douchey, self-absorbed party boy. That's like... 95% of actors. *Some* of them are bound to be talented. One expects that they could find one that more closely resembles the character.

To people crying how objections are racist - It's not unreasonable to want what's on the page up on the screen. In fact, that's sort of the point.

 

[Gearhead mk2]

Well, Johnny's not black in the comics, but his race isn't a big part of his character so it wouldn't really matter, and... frankly, given how goddamn racist the moviemaking business can be sometimes, I'd say if he has the skill and wants the part, let Micheal have it.

 

[O maestre]

Why the hell not??? Because I personally do NOT want one of the coolest black superheroes to be played by white Hollywood prettyboy. I do not dislike Pitt, but still, look at this picture

You really think that this phrase would sound better without deep, black voice (like in videogames), acompanied by serious and handsome masculine black face? Of course not.

And I bet many people wouldn't like such change, no matter their etnicity.

Ill admit I have very little knowledge about Luke Cage, so like I said if being black is a definition of the character then I agree that the ethnicity shouldn't change. But if you take my Spawn example, I really cannot see why ethnicity even matters in that specific case. So Luke cage is probably a bad example and not analogous... which I kind of stated in my original post in regards to them changing the setting.

I did not notice the Mandarin or Bane outrage it must have been very quite a lot more silent in comparison to the Heimdal outrage.

 

[Sneezeguard]

You know I've been thinking about this and I was annoyed by this change, But I didn't know why.

People will always be annoyed when they don't follow the source material or do something different from the source material. But it's always changes to appearance that elicit the most hate usually even more so than changes to backstory.

For the most part I don't think the hate is racially movitated and to paint it as such is to straw man the opposition.

"We changed a character don't like it? racist!"

No, I've seen seen this hate before, I remember when people were angry at James Bond as a Blond. I have friends who are still bitter about it (I mean really, they could of just dyed his hair to keep with in our perception of Bond!).

I raged when they white washed Avatar the last air Bender and Zuko was not played by someone of Japanese orgin as I had always perceive the fire nation as based on 19th century Japan during it's industrial revolution.

And why? because they weren't the characters I had come to know and like.

We form an identity of a person mainly through appearance it is how we catergorise and differentiate people the only people who do not are the blind. We form strong bonds to outside apperence because of this.

And that's what bothers me about this. I have a preconceive idea of who Johnny is and he does not match that. He is not Johnny but he's pretending to be. He is not the character I've come to know and like he's just some random guy.


To put it another way if someone you knew or loved got involved in a horrible accident and their brain was transplanted into a new body of a person of different race, gender, hair colour just completely different would to you be able to easily connected to them?

Most likely no. Because you would already have an perception of who that person was and they would not match it. They would feel like a stranger.

 

[Hippopotursus]

My concern with having a black Johnny is largely related to also having a black Sue. The concept is fine, but to stay at least nominally true to the backstory they should be biological siblings, and for purposes of identification, the same race. You don't look at two characters of different races on screen and immediately think 'oh, they're related' - and when told they're related, you question it instead of accepting it.

The problem that stems from that, though, is one of identity conflation. Because although you have a shiny new look for Johnny, suddenly his sister is a superpowered black woman named Storm... and Halle Berry springs into everyone's heads.

 

[Toilet]

Instead of Johnny Storm being played by a black character why not have a black guy play The Thing, I don't think people would be that mad.

 

[SultanP]

I don't necessarily think it's racist that people don't like a man of a different skin colour to be cast in the role. If I go see a movie where I already know how the characters are supposed to look, I notice if even the hair or costume is wrong, and to me, the same goes for skin colour. That's not racist, that's just wanting them to stick as closely as possible to the character. In this case, I don't care a whole lot, because it's just the fantastic four, but crying about racism when that's not necessarily what's going on, isn't helping anyone, it's just cheapening the debate on racism. Mind you, I haven't read these comments about the issue, except for parts of this thread, but my point still stands. Being anal isn't the same as being racist.