So according to some feminists, this anti-rape ad campaign is sexist

[LadyRhian]

See, you are once again blaming the victim for what they are wearing. You seem to keep doing that. Once again, armchair-quarterbacking the decision of what someone wears as an excuse for their rape.

Okay, let's take a step back from the crazy accusations here. I understand this is a heated, controversial topic, but you are just firing a pistol into the crowd at this point.

You keep returning to the idea that what a person is wearing can excuse their rape. No other crime gets that as a reason to let the assailant off- only rape. And that's wrong.

Nowhere in this entire thread have I seen anyone post suggesting this. Cool off.

Really? Have you been reading this thread? People have been bringing up the issue of what the woman is wearing when it comes to her being raped, along with her being drunk, to blame her for the rape. This was post #13 on the thread:

"Alcohol is definitely a huge factor when it comes to sexual assault, but in no circumstances is it ever the victim's fault" I see these two as kind of contradictory, take some responsibility ... if I leave my front door open and I get robbed, it is partly my fault for doing that.

Should I have to lock my door? No 'cos everybody should be decent enough not to steal but people do steal and people do rape, so stop being stupid and getting so boozed up you become a target!

Using the same analogy, imagine if the police showed up to my flat.

"was your door locked?"
"no"
"why?"
"people should be decent enough not to rob me"
" ....... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

"were you drunk?"
"yes"
"ok, were you wearing reveling clothes?"
"yes"
"ok, were you leading guys on only to turn them away?"
"yes"
"ok, were you alone in a dark alley?"
"yes"
"damn those rapists! Picking on a poor innocent woman ..."

I am not saying they were asking for it or encouraging it but they made themselves a target.

"Were you wearing revealing clothes?" Yes, it was brought up early in this thread.

 

[Lazier Than Thou]

-snip-

You know what? I'm making terrible arguments in my haste. I'm gonna step aside and let the smart people do the talking.

In my defense, I don't particularly like waiting for responses, so I tend to rush mine out. Thanks for the horrible beat down to humble me. I'll keep it in mind for the future.

 

[LadyRhian]

Okay, I'm off to bed. Have to work entirely too early tomorrow.

 

[Sud0_x]

Actually it's more like leaving your new Mercedes unlocked in a bad neighborhood.
Okay all these analogies suck.

Edit: For clarification I'm not referring to the clothing issue at all but general situational awareness.

Prevention and awareness is a good thing.

Let's play a game

To cop a feel, even try to reach underneath dresses and skirts and go for the privates (It's happened at my college). There are guys who will try to force sex or won't take no for an answer, and there are guys who will attempt to take advantage of drunken women.

Can YOU think of a word that fits, little Timmy?

How many men that you know would report a rape/sexual assault or even tell their closest friends?


This thread is bananas.
Actually, I like bananas...
This thread is a kick in the face.

 

[Newtonyd]

See, you are once again blaming the victim for what they are wearing. You seem to keep doing that. Once again, armchair-quarterbacking the decision of what someone wears as an excuse for their rape.

Okay, let's take a step back from the crazy accusations here. I understand this is a heated, controversial topic, but you are just firing a pistol into the crowd at this point.

You keep returning to the idea that what a person is wearing can excuse their rape. No other crime gets that as a reason to let the assailant off- only rape. And that's wrong.

Nowhere in this entire thread have I seen anyone post suggesting this. Cool off.

Really? Have you been reading this thread? People have been bringing up the issue of what the woman is wearing when it comes to her being raped, along with her being drunk, to blame her for the rape.

"Were you wearing revealing clothes?" Yes, it was brought up early in this thread.

I'm saying that at no point do people say that the victim wearing revealing clothes EXCUSES a rapist. People are saying that it makes people a target, which is a big difference.

Like walking down into a bad neighborhood with a gold watch makes you a target for muggers. Nobody here thinks the mugger is excused because the guy wore a gold watch. They are saying the guy might have been more careful.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't need to worry about this kind of thing. But we don't live in ideal world, so I will continue to warn the people I know and love to take precautions regarding making themselves a target. It has nothing to do with blame.

 

[Marcus Kehoe]

Similar thing happened to a old friend of mine. He had just gotten back from boot camp and had 1 week for his birthday then he was being sent off. We were throwing him a party and other than one other girl the girl my friend brought was the only one their in a party of 8. She was all over him, and She had forced us to start drinking way to early(before 9.00 p.m) because she was bored. Well before 10 they were both drunk, and they went off to a room together. 2 hours later she comes down saying she has to leave and literally runs away into the forest, luckily before we decided to go look for someone came to pick her up. We weren't sure what happened but she wouldn't say and my friend didn't say anything about rape. Well a month later she threatens to get him kicked out of the military for rape. He says he didn't remember and I didn't think anything happened that she didn't want but I still felt kinda sick that it happened so close if it did.

Both sexes need to speak up and say yes or no.

I mean if it wasn't for the fact she was all over him then I wouldn't be his friend, but I don't think he did anything she did not agree to.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

I fail to see why you guys are responding so vehemently against this. Is it because someone said the magic f word? No, not that one, the other one. Because this ad campaign is victim blaming at its best. It's telling women to avoid getting raped as opposed to telling men not to rape. It's making them the problem, not the rapists. That's wrong. Why make this ad as opposed to making ads saying "Don't get drunk and take advantage of women, ya prick." I mean, imagine if you were raped while drunk and then someone said it was your fault. How would you respond? All you were doing was having a typical fun night out. It's the rapists fault for raping you, not the other way around. Yes, you should always take precautions to protect yourself, but isn't always walking around in fear of rape counterproductive to having a fun night out? Should you not party on the grounds that you might be raped, just like you shouldn't drive a car in case a drunk driver hits you? Of course not.

Rape is the rapist's fault. Target your ads at them, not the victims.

Thank you. How about: "She may be drunk and an easy target, but that doesn't make taking advantage of her okay." Nope, lets put all the onus on the victim.

 

[Newtonyd]

Okay, I'm off to bed. Have to work entirely too early tomorrow.

But who will I argue with? =/

 

[pffh]

He'll probably go for the one in the turtleneck to show her sh

This is an example of a similar thing done properly:
http://www.care2.com/causes/edgy-new-dont-be-that-guy-anti-rape-campaign-launched-in-ottawa.html

Yes, you can tell the drunk girl is attractive, but it doesn't objectify her by showing her disembodied legs. She is clearly in a vulnerable position and the ad adresses potential rapists, not the girl's friends going "This girl is probably going to get herself raped. Be responsible on her behalf and call a cab for the drunk little slut."

Erm that ad is fucking sexist. It implies that all "guys" and only "guys" are potential rapists that need to be told not to rape.

I fail to see why you guys are responding so vehemently against this. Is it because someone said the magic f word? No, not that one, the other one. Because this ad campaign is victim blaming at its best. It's telling women to avoid getting raped as opposed to telling men not to rape. It's making them the problem, not the rapists. That's wrong. Why make this ad as opposed to making ads saying "Don't get drunk and take advantage of women, ya prick." I mean, imagine if you were raped while drunk and then someone said it was your fault. How would you respond? All you were doing was having a typical fun night out. It's the rapists fault for raping you, not the other way around. Yes, you should always take precautions to protect yourself, but isn't always walking around in fear of rape counterproductive to having a fun night out? Should you not party on the grounds that you might be raped, just like you shouldn't drive a car in case a drunk driver hits you? Of course not.

Rape is the rapist's fault. Target your ads at them, not the victims.

The ads that tell men not to rape imply that ALL MEN AND ONLY MEN are rapists waiting to happen that need to be told not to rape. That's not true since #1 not all men are rapist or will rape, #2 there are women rapists as well and #3 if someone is a rapist a fucking ad isn't going to stop him/her.

Who do you target anti burglary ads at, the victim to teach him/her how to preven burglary or the burglars telling them not to steal? Anti murder ads? Anti-violence ads? Why should anti-rape ads be any different?

 

[Joshic Shin]

snip

I'm saying that at no point do people say that the victim wearing revealing clothes EXCUSES a rapist. People are saying that it makes people a target, which is a big difference.

Like walking down into a bad neighborhood with a gold watch makes you a target for muggers. Nobody here thinks the mugger is excused because the guy wore a gold watch. They are saying the guy might have been more careful.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't need to worry about this kind of thing. But we don't live in ideal world, so I will continue to warn the people I know and love to take precautions regarding making themselves a target. It has nothing to do with blame.

Except most women who are raped are raped by someone they know. I believe it is somewhere around 28% of rapes happen due to a stranger in the US, the rest are relatives, friends, or former lovers. More importantly, it isn't the clothes that matter. A pretty girl dressed like a nun can still be raped. Hell, women dressed in burqas can and have been raped. Saying that somehow clothes are the reason for a rape, or makes them a more attractive target in your words, is just silly. It is done because the person wants the thrill of power and/or self gratification.

Just like you can live as a pauper and still get mugged, so to can you dress very conservatively and still get raped. It is trying to reach and educate the rapists before they commit a crime that we should focus on, not telling all women to distrust all men who could possibly rape them.

 

[chocolatekake]

What I do find ever so slightly disturbing is the almost glamorous shot of an obviously young girl's nice legs. Should they really be attracting attention to an anti-rape ad using sexually provocative imagery? She's doing the toe-pointing thing and everything.

That was the first thing that caught my eye too, not sure if that's necessarily a bad thing though. Definitely feels a little awkward, but these ads are supposed to be placed in public areas, and are competing for our short attention spans against hundreds of other ads you'll see every day, they have to be a bit edgy to stand out.

It is unequivocally a bad thing. The last thing you want to do is glamourise rape, and the fact that she's got nice legs and is wearing what appears to be a very short mini-skirt just encourages victim blaming. Look at the lighting. Her underwear matches the bathroom tiles for fuck's sake. The more I look at it, the more disturbing the ad seems.

This is an example of a similar thing done properly:
http://www.care2.com/causes/edgy-new-dont-be-that-guy-anti-rape-campaign-launched-in-ottawa.html

Yes, you can tell the drunk girl is attractive, but it doesn't objectify her by showing her disembodied legs. She is clearly in a vulnerable position and the ad adresses potential rapists, not the girl's friends going "This girl is probably going to get herself raped. Be responsible on her behalf and call a cab for the drunk little slut."

So disembodied legs equals objectification? When was the last time focus on just a person's face was objectification? It's drawing attention to the legs of someone who, I'm sorry for you, is not disgustingly obese or a leper. The legs, or rather between them is where most of this stuff happens, so it's understandable that an advertisement is going to focus on that.

I agree that the other advertisement works well, too. But does it not also "objectify" her? She's attractive, lying face down on the couch, "just asking for it" and quite obviously passed out. An object. Something that can't refuse.

Now if it was instead a full-body shot with the girl lying, covering her chest and crotch, with the bottom part with those legs and the underwear? Then I'd definitely see the argument for that being objectification.

As for the claim that it blames the victim, I don't see it. I see it as "be responsible for yourself and don't be stupid. Take care of yourself as best you can and don't get yourself drunk to the point of being completely out of it. And don't let your friends do so either. It's irresponsible, at least, when it comes to rape." Like someone else already mentioned, yeah I shouldn't have to lock my door when I'm out, because people shouldn't be jerks and steal my stuff, kill me, whatever. But I'd be stupid not to lock my door, because I know that sort of thing happens.

In addition, yes her underwear matches the tile on the floor. And also the URL banner. It's an advertisement. It's going to have some style.

 

[attackshark]

maybe she shouldn't drink so much she wouldn't get raped in the first place. We need strong alcohol laws in the US

no. we need a good education so that people can make good decisions.

i will decide when, where, what, and how much i want to drink.

i will decide if i want to wear a seat belt.

i will decide what food i want to consume based on my appetite.

i can and i will make my own decisions. i don't need some fucking politicians with entitlement issues to restrict the way i live my life based on topics they know little to jack-shit on.

LESS LEGISLATION, MORE EDUCATION!!

 

[Joshic Shin]

He'll probably go for the one in the turtleneck to show her sh

This is an example of a similar thing done properly:
http://www.care2.com/causes/edgy-new-dont-be-that-guy-anti-rape-campaign-launched-in-ottawa.html

Yes, you can tell the drunk girl is attractive, but it doesn't objectify her by showing her disembodied legs. She is clearly in a vulnerable position and the ad adresses potential rapists, not the girl's friends going "This girl is probably going to get herself raped. Be responsible on her behalf and call a cab for the drunk little slut."

Erm that ad is fucking sexist. It implies that all "guys" and only "guys" are potential rapists that need to be told not to rape.

Well over 90% of rapes are done by men, including those done on men. I think this is a better way to handle it than the original ad that was shown.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

You're claiming that women should know better than to dress provocatively because some men might think that she should expect to get raped for doing so, and they interpret that as a form of consent. That is victim blaming.

Wow guy, just wow. It is not victim blaming, it is FACT. Just like it is FACT that you increase your chances of injury by not wearing a helmet at a construction site.

Women can dress however they want. I'd be a liar if I told them I wanted them to dress in sweaters, because I appreciate the female body as much as the next guy. But with every action there are RISKS. Men seeing cleavage will be sexually attracted, it's as inevitable as gravity.

I've seen posters try to tell men this isn't a lead on before. Who knows whether it actually worked?

Telling a woman to take precautions and wear a helmet does NOT equal blame.

It isn't about clothes. Jesus, how many times does this have to be brought up?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States
Most rape offenders personally know their victim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual_violence
A majority of rape is about dominating a person, not sexual arousal.

 

[Harbinger_]

Never the victim's fault? Seriously? Admittedly 98% of the time it isn't the victim's fault but there is that 2% there. I'm talking people that purposely put themselves into situations where they hope to be sexually taken advantage of. Granted these people have mental issues however they do exist and the rapists are just as much at fault.

However if you stick your hand knowingly in front of a starving animal it's going to bite and you shouldn't expect sympathy for doing that on purpose.

There are also situations where infidelity are causes. IE: A married or attached woman is seeking some pleasure behind their significant other's back and when caught in the throes of passion by said husband or significant other they claim that they were being raped to save face rather than admit their adulterous act.

 

[Newtonyd]

Except most women who are raped are raped by someone they know. I believe it is somewhere around 28% of rapes happen due to a stranger in the US, the rest are relatives, friends, or former lovers. More importantly, it isn't the clothes that matter. A pretty girl dressed like a nun can still be raped. Hell, women dressed in burqas can and have been raped. Saying that somehow clothes are the reason for a rape, or makes them a more attractive target in your words, is just silly. It is done because the person wants the thrill of power and/or self gratification.

Just like you can live as a pauper and still get mugged, so to can you dress very conservatively and still get raped. It is trying to reach and educate the rapists before they commit a crime that we should focus on, not telling all women to distrust all men who could possibly rape them.

I have seen a dozen people quote 'stranger rape %' statistics in this thread, and each person has a different number. Honestly, I've done some studying on how the U.S.'s UCR (Uniform Crime Reports) collects its data, and it's absolutely appalling how incorrect they can sometimes be. All I'm saying is, all this data is probably nowhere close to an actual number. I doubt we'll have an accurate picture on crime as embarrassing and personal as rape.

Given that, it's probably true that stranger rape is the oddity. But there is still a percentage of rape that occurs because there is opportunity that wouldn't be there if precautions were taken. The stranger / friend thing does not mean you shouldn't be sensible. Avoid making yourself a target for friends.

Or don't. Nobody is forcing anyone into anything. But people need to understand there are risks involved with a carefree night at a club. Whether those risks are acceptable or not are is up to them.

 

[Pandabearparade]

It is never the victim's fault, but that doesn't mean a girl shouldn't take precautions. Good campaign, stupid people objecting to it. I think that the modern feminist organizations just can't call a day complete without contriving a bullshit outrage to be outraged about.

 

[Labyrinth]

Give yourself a gold fucking star, trophy, or medal for hitting this one so precisely.

Thank you. I shall put it on my lapel and be proud of it forever more.

 

[Newtonyd]

It isn't about clothes. Jesus, how many times does this have to be brought up?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States
Most rape offenders personally know their victim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual_violence
A majority of rape is about dominating a person, not sexual arousal.

Are sexy clothes unable to arouse people because you 'know them'?

From the page you quote at me:

The sadistic rapist's assaults are deliberate, calculated and preplanned. They will often wear a disguise or will blindfold their victims.[3] Prostitutes or other people whom they perceive to be "promiscuous" are often the sadistic rapist's targets. The victims of a sadistic rapist may not survive the attack. For some offenders, the ultimate satisfaction is gained from murdering the victim.[1]

See that bit about the promiscuous target? By dressing up in skimpy clothing, you are giving the impression of promiscuity. Whether or not it's true, this is how people will perceive you. And there's nothing even wrong with that, I'm not one to subscribe to the Christian view of sex as a 'corrupter'.

On the other hand, by seeming promiscuous you are making yourself a target for men who do tell themselves "She's asking for it." And these people are bastards.

But playing the blame game at the end won't change the fact that an innocent person was raped! It can't be undone! Better that precautions are taken and we don't have to argue about it at all.

 

[Labyrinth]

Never the victim's fault? Seriously? Admittedly 98% of the time it isn't the victim's fault but there is that 2% there. I'm talking people that purposely put themselves into situations where they hope to be sexually taken advantage of. Granted these people have mental issues however they do exist and the rapists are just as much at fault.

>>Purposely put themselves into situations where they hope to be sexually taken advantage of.
>>Purposely sexually taken advantage of
>>Purposely

...

What the fuck? There is no other possible response to this. No-one, no-one asks to be raped, or hopes to be raped. That's part of why it's called rape. It's against ones will. But please, tell me about these people. Who are they? How precisely are they inviting rape? Have you asked them about whether they're doing it deliberately or not?

Seriously. What the fuck.